# Master Pricing, Attract Clients & Creative Blocks

## Метаданные

- **Канал:** The Futur
- **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjyGTunAhRk
- **Дата:** 27.01.2024
- **Длительность:** 1:11:14
- **Просмотры:** 20,274
- **Источник:** https://ekstraktznaniy.ru/video/20276

## Описание

How to Get Clients, Beat Creative Blocks & Get Out Of Your Own Way

🔥 Struggling to find your place in the design world? 

Dive into this enlightening conversation with Chris Do and Radim Malinic, where they unlock the secrets to thriving in the creative industry. From ice hockey player to music journalist, Radim's diverse background brings a fresh perspective to design challenges. This video is not just a talk, but a journey through the essentials of creative success.

🌟 What You'll Learn:
🎨 The delicate balance between art and commercial creativity.
💰 Strategies for pricing your work & communicating value to clients.
🔄 How to shift your mindset from self-centric to client-centric design.
🧘‍♂️ The crucial role of mental health & personal growth in creativity.
🤝 Techniques to build lasting client relationships and grow your network.

Whether you're starting out or looking to elevate your design career, this video is packed with invaluable advice and practical tips. 

🔔 Don’t miss out o

## Транскрипт

### Introduction []

people are struggling with finding a client finding how to talk about the value of the work that they do pricing I think that people made lots of mistakes with trying to work with everyone and know n early is the hardest thing you can do I seem to have lost my mojo uh how do I become passionate about design again because I just don't feel the same way I used to the creative work is not a problem if you're not enjoying your creative work is because something outside of the process is making you not enjoy it it's like a comp complain is only nominally about a person it's more about yourself like if you don't like something that you normally enjoy is because something's not quite right I think wherever you are it's all driven by ego the design isn't mine I'm creating service I'm creating value to someone I'm here to do the best possible job there's a difference between art and creativity or Art and Design how do you help them flip their mindset around this is there anything actionable you can share with us my guest for today's podcast is Ren malinick and I met him recently at the rjd design thinkers conference we sat next to each other and we're both signing books and there's a lovely gentleman and I'm pleasantly surprised to find a new voice in The Creative World which I'm really digging into his work he do beautiful work and understanding his background and this book that we're going to talk about a little bit it's called creativity for sale it's an interesting title Rim is gonna help us understand and unpack why that is and I believe his unique background speaks a lot about why this is called this okay so redeem for everybody who doesn't know who you are can you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit of your backstory what a lovely introduction Chris thank you very much I mean yes we we've been met very much at that moment uh and announced um so my name is R malinich I'm a check born British designer I'm a creative director of my agency called brand new studio I'm a founder of brand new books my independent uh publishing imprint I'm an author I'm a creative thinker I just play with creativity and I'm currently now on a mission after 22 years in the industry I'm on a mission of very much giving back uh problem solving you know helping new creatives kind of have an easier journey into the whole process because I've started not even at no ground zero I started minus five you know staircases trying to get up and work out everything bit by bit not necessarily with people who knew how to you know teach us properly not necessarily look after interest so I'm very much um you know on a mission to give back I

### Creativity for Sale [2:35]

love that I think there's a lot of synergies here so for our creative audience I want to start here with this book titled creativity for sale I think a lot of people like wait wait you're talking about a beautiful thing I do rodm I mean why would you say this things for sale like why be so transactional about this help me understand what the point of view and the lens here I mean creativity is the sort of Untamed sort of invis ible Beast however creativity for sale is our meaning of how we go about and make living with without how our soul is guiding us where we go with it and how to make I mean how Lally if that's the case how to make a living because creativity for sale I mean we can spend a whole podcast hour about this just about the title alone it's like how do you say everything in three words and so there was def there was many different working titles but a I believe there's no shame there's no I mean we can be humble about what we do because you know lots of people choose creativity for sale as they're living and I mean they call it something different but that's what we do I mean creativity for sale stands for being a service industry like actually working for people providing creativity providing solution providing that sort of helping hand Guiding Light just for people know just for others to succeed because what we do essentially we Aid the world with beautiful stuff with solutions that you know should make the world better place in a way and creativity for S there's no shame it's how to summarize you know how to build a business well since you're

### Value of Creativity [4:10]

talking about creativity and sale then I have to ask this question about how does one put a price tag or determine the value of creativity for some people especially if you talk to creatives they're going to say well it's Priceless what I do and then for some maybe more business oriented well no there's a very specific price and willing to pay this and how do we resolve that oh I think there's a difference between art and a creative service I think when you think about creativity in an exchange commercial value it's it's how you deliver a solution for someone I mean Priceless art obviously is something which is of a sort of subjective value and I wouldn't see that as a creativity for sale I think that's just that's the so on Exchange you know like you B you you put yourself out there and you create something and then it just it's the value is an eye of the beholder whereas with a service industry I think we just create Solutions and the more experienced more grown more understandable you are that's where your value is grows so I think that there's no shame in sort of being on a journey to actually grow and and grow into someone who is actually voice of opinion and value and and expertise this is very interesting we're

### Art vs Creativity [5:21]

very much aligned and I think I know why our friend Rahul has put this together because it's like wait you guys definitely have to talk because you take a very pragmatic approach to this fairly amorphous field that we call creativity and you say you know there's a difference between art and creativity or Art and Design One is we're we're it's like an expression of who we are that's the art part and then one is more driven by Solutions I'm just curious from where you are across the pond what is the prevailing attitude of designers and how they feel about whether this is art or is it in service is it Commercial Art Is it a service we provide or is there something more there I think wherever you are it's all driven by ego you know the ego if if the ego gets in a way then you'll be asking for more money than you're worth but it's I think it the creativity when I when I thought about it when I realized that I am very much happy and content with who I am I'm happy to be the old one hour happy to be me then you lose competition you gain friends and contemporaries because you provide sort of the solutions and the energy from your know from yourself out rather than absorbing it and of course we wherever you are you you'll get you know people who will like their ego stroke and they think their work is amazing and you know it's it's it's Universal if if your energy radi is out then you can command any price you can work with anyone you can kind of you can be just Universal and sort of and and versatile part the solutions because you're helping others rather than what's in it for me because I think that that's the problem and people try to see like oh I've showed up that you've asked me a question to be here you know how much you gonna pay me that's the wrong question it's like I've showed up thanks for asking me a question what's the opportunity what can we do like what can I how can I help you know when you start with these questions the price always will be right in the end because you align yourself with people and their philosophies and their desires and that's what matters the most okay this is something that at

### People struggle with this [7:40]

least here in America the people I've spoken to they really struggle with this concept so let's dive a little deeper let's pull this apart a little bit if we if you can right so here we go people in the creative space let's just say designers I think they are very Centric or like self-centric in their approach this is what I should charge this is what I'm worth and I'm going to do this but you're like let's just flip the script a little bit here let's try to understand how can I help you and you use this the term like what is the opportunity here and we need to line around that so how do you teach people who are maybe a little bit late to this party about serving the person in front of them versus this is my art this is my design and the prevailing attitude at least and a lot of the younger less experienced designers I have is God the clients just get in the way of me doing good work they told toally missed the boat there how do you help them flip their mindset around this is there anything actionable you can share with us I mean I used to think that creativity was fun until the client came through the door you know you have your Ambitions your W your green you're thinking you know everything you you're excited everything's you know you got the energy but you haven't got the experience so you think that the creativity is being spoiled by the client yeah whereas when you when you've been around the block a few times you realize the design isn't mine I'm creating service I'm creating value to someone I'm here to do the best possible job you know this is Imagine where you based in La you know you got you can't stumble across an actor within two seconds um they are hired for the job you know they art is their personal brand of creativity is their creativity for sale you know so this is how the know when you flick a switch when you flip the scene it's it becomes selfless when you feel selflessly about creative it when you can when you want to deliver actually improve on what's around you and improve on a client situation it doesn't matter what the creativity looks like because you know you when you accept it that's how the exchange is created you don't mind the the the amends changes you don't mind the exchanges you don't mind the delays or whatever because you creating it for them therefore like your ego again I think ego might be the conversation we talk about quite a lot but it's when someone's really holding on the value of their design is their insecurity because you think oh I might not get paid I might not do this I might you know would this be pool like it's it all stems from insecurity because if we all had unlimited bank accounts we would have such more fruitful conversation about you know creativity and design and art and illustration because it wouldn't matter you'll be like look I love what you do because I'm comfortable and I'm secure in myself rather than I don't really like it why well because you might be a bit better than me you know it's just or you might have a better client it's might the fee might be a bit better so it's all about having that inner peace and that inner calm about like okay you know what I can I'm happy for everyone to have their success and it doesn't matter you know how the work is perceived because someone is somebody somewhere will love it someone might not like it but somebody will love it and that's the key you know like but it doesn't matter right now have I done a good job is the first and important part because that's you know when you've take that book then have you know have you put enough of yourself and enough of your skill and talent have you made it beautiful yes does it work is it beautiful brilliant you know let's get you paid and I think that's the change my question for you is

### Personal growth [11:10]

this you said I used to think like that clearly you don't think like that anymore was there an inciting incident was there a moment when this came to head where you're like you know what am I doing here I mean it's a growth I mean when you're young you think you know better you know I remember speaking to someone when I was 20 that person was my age and I said look I've got it worked out you know I'm 21 it's all making s it's all making sense and the person says just give it another few years you know maybe 20 maybe more you know and it's it's that personal it's that beautiful thing about personal growth like the older you get and you must know yourself like the voices slow down you the voes quieter you know the pace slows down or you all of a sudden you're happy not to be running because all you want to do when you start you want to get how do I run a marathon every day I want to okay let's get choose let's bulk a mile let's run five miles let's do this no that's what you want to do because like right now the world is Disneyland you can do anything you like you can have any career you can be any gender any color I mean it's just I mean not M color but you know like you can be like it's brilliant you know that that the box of sweets from Forest Gump you know it's there and it can sometimes Cloud our judgment because what can I choose what can I be you know this is and the older you get you narrow down you know the funnel of options Narrows down You' been more Cal with yourself you're like okay I want to do this and I've know what my sort of working philosophy is because I didn't know what my working philosophy was for about 10 years I know what my aesthetical and egoistical philosophy was but not necessarily the outward thing I want people to receive me how amazing I wasn't as an illustrator as a designer as an art director video director I want it to be accepted for that but as soon as I realized I can actually create something meaningful with my creativity and um you know be more financially secure more personally secure like less anxious and you know insecure about the creativity because all you have to do is put something on the Internet and you can either be celebrating or you can be crying because people don't like you know so it's just like the public arena is it's dreadful for confidence you know it can help you boost can shoot you down the same way so it's just about growth it's all about growth and understanding and actually absorbing influences and understanding from different um disciplines you know I remember when I started sort of looking into more of a sort of Behavioral Science and psychology sort of interpersonal sort of growth that's when I became better designer because I've actually learned more about myself rather than you know just improving my technical skills do you think then it's inevitable given

### You are not alone [13:56]

your explan or observation that we begin this journey full of hubis self-importance and we mature and grow at some point we hit this place where we like you said the voes quiet down a little bit you check in with yourself you become much more grounded like I get this very grounding energy as you speak here I'm like yeah I relate to you I understand do we have to go through that Arc or is there something some Brilliance some intelligence you can send down the stream so that the 19-year-old version of you could hear it's like you know what I'm going to keep that awful stage I'm going to go straight to the good stuff yeah you see I interviewed someone the other day and he said he wouldn't change anything like he wanted to go through every bad checkpoint of know be knee in D be knee in mud like he wanted to do that and I was like actually that makes sense because you have to kiss too many frogs to actually enjoy the end result like you have to do this because we can Enlighten people we can actually if there's anything that sending what the reason what I'm doing with my two new books is actually saying you're not alone like it's not going to be pretty all the time not ugly all the time but you're not alone you're okay like I'm telling you with the 20 year sort of know um advantage that you know it's a bumpy ride there's a lot of things you can do to help yourself for sort of physically and what know from Automation and you know like whatever tools we can use like there's things you can do mechanically to help yourself but the grow from within will take time like you can I can tell you and this is this is the industry that we're in I can tell you all the right answers for you can actually most shortcut those 20 years but as creatives if I tell you know go left or go right you if the right answer is to go right everyone's going to go left because somehow we are sort of hardwired and pre-programmed to make those mistakes to learn from them but the cue is and the clue is that I will not if you don't go right and if you go left if you choose your own if you choose that mistake I will already tell you that it's okay to recover from it quicker because sometimes our mistakes can take a long time to recover from and again that's something that you learn Enough by growing and learning that it's okay to make mistakes and you know everyone does it everyone makes those well I think your answer and

### Chriss journey [16:18]

your philosophy is actually pretty autobiographical and I did a little research and correct me if I'm wrong here okay so you had a pretty strange and remarkable Journey from I think it says like you ice hockey player a music journalist and now you're a renowned graphic designer running your own agency self-taught too I believe so it's like you're sampling life and you're describing something of your own journey to it whereas my path in life was like when I was 18 I knew I wanted to be a designer so I then went to a design school and then that's what I've been doing for the majority of my adult life so how has all these things informed your process and your design philosophy I think we got a hint of it but now maybe from a context point of view our audience can start to hear like oh that's why he says those things you got to experience these things and you got to feel your way through and there's no shortcut because that sounds like your story I mean what I admire about you Chris that if you knew at 18 what you wanted to do you were miles ahead of me because I was I landed in the UK when I was 2021 uh a freshly finished degree in economics because I thought I need to do something proper with my life because pre pre-degree I was very much in music I was I was a musician I was a DJ before that I was an isok player but all of these things I've started with too long done readed you know like I wanted to join my isy team before I could ice skate I was like I wanted to do it like we can work it out you know I wanted to join a band I wanted to start a band but I couldn't play so I was like okay let's buy instruments and let's be crap you know let's be really bad at this then I didn't like my know my musical friends so I started dejing and I was like the pit of like okay I can play any music any day you know I can have I was DJ as a teenager I was DJing like five nights a week because no one said I couldn't and it was fun and I was I kept showing up they kept paying me kep buying more music and it was incredible mid90s and sort of late 90s the best time on the planet Earth I mean absolutely because you can do whatever you want it like the music was amazing like I mean was MTV we dressed like idiots you know I used to wear shorts on my jeans you know like it was brilliant but you could do whatever you want and no one said no so I brought that logic to the UK because I wanted to be closer to the culture and design but I still came with no plan I was still I was coming here as a sort of music I wanted to be a music producer a music journalist and I totally fell in love with the design scene because it was flooded with people's creativity like a raw creativity every person I met was even sort of bading producer making their own records releasing their record you know making their own stuff and I was like oh I knew I wanted to be happy and you don't really get you know people don't really know what to do with you when you say they don't be happy I was like I just want to be calm know I want to wake up and know that what I'm doing today is going to be full of you know moments that sort of going fill my soul with good stuff of course there will be some battles there'll be some ups and downs abs and flows but at the end of the day you know we should go back to the sort of the the base the Baseline and be like okay this was a good day no we're ready for tomorrow and creativity kind of gave me that because as I said earlier like I started in the very beginning at the very bottom and just sample sample work with people who were not good at this who were people very good at this you know I'm just and I'm just picking up all these little interesting bits because I see myself now more as a sort of product maker not like a you know digital product maker but more like how do we put things together and all the sort of century elements of my work you know building a a publishing company with physical paperbags that you know beautifully made sort of considered like hly how do we rethink it reimagine the theme it all comes from especially it comes from music because England is known for inventing music genres at lunchtime you know they're like what should invent today this music or that music you know it's still amazing place it's a melting Port of influences so I think it's just that unregulated creativity you know if you want to do it you should try it this try it you know like do you want to do mindfulness course for design thinkers yeah let's do it let's try it you know like it's no one says no I mean there's definitely that the reason why failure exist because it will not the universe will show you about to stop it's like this doesn't work now let's try something different but if it keeps working let's not well why not continue I think that's the beautiful part of this like you can continue and do the things because they grow because the things that I've decided to do 10 years ago are now flourishing the seeds I planted and I'm now harvesting and that's the best B because everything takes time you know you're Justin Bieber and whoever's on a YouTube on TV and radio like they had career growth like no one just popped up and go Tada I'm here now you know so it's that open eyes open ears open arms know all the influences inspiration information coming to me and I just sort of process it and this is my output now well as a person who has a

### Switching gears [21:39]

singular love for design and you said well I fell in love with the creativity of design but from the outside looking in DJing the DJ was the coolest person they were the life of the party quite literally all right they made people move and they made people feel so my question for you and I think you're a little bit of the P pip here speaking that uh you're blowing the dog whistle for creatives like oh well if he can fall in love with all these things I should have all these diverse interests too so when do you know when it's time to pause the play and the joy to find something like design like why didn't you stay at being a DJ or making music whatever else you were doing like how did you know when you know what I need to switch gears or switch lanes here I think there's a natural cell by date you know sometimes you know some people like career DJs designers some people are career um what you call them actors you know people like people some people are just have that linear trajectory whereas I was never your main room DJ you know I was always a bit of a DJ saur because I was mainly going out to play the music that I liked you know on vinyl and that kind of stuff and I wasn't I think it's all sounded good but when people ask you like what music is this like what why am I not dancing I'm really confused like because I was yeah I was bit of a subter because I was playing like eclectic mixture of music I was not like it was not I was not a crowd pleaser I felt like bit of like an educator like a sort of secret sort of music educator because I played the music I would have W I would have wanted to hear if I was to go out and I've had countless experiences in my life when I would go out and see and hear someone playing something really new which was not for thousands of people but only let's say for no dozens of people but it changed my life in the way of oh I've never heard this music before someone put themselves out there to create mood create atmosphere to make me feel something because with everything that we do we make people feel whatever you do you make people feel something you know you can make people mad happy know enjoy know elated but you know this is why we have those reactions because it's like a reaction to your partner like you know someone that you want to be with you know it's like you make me feel something they haven't done anything you know necessarily but you get that sort of Vibe back because oh what because their being is not intentional for you to be like okay I'm here to exist to know for Chris do to fall in love with me like you you do your thing and people sort of fly towards you like know it's like a that sort of beehive and it's yeah I think it's just we got I think we got natural sort of pauses and natural sort of phases in our life because I just feel I when I do something I do it a lot and I maximize this you know in my career as a designer I've done 30 years worth of hours in 20 years you know I've done 18 hour days as long as I could do until I was you know flat on my face you know impossibly absolutely burn out but it's about maximizing the time that you've got because our interest change you know you know that you were not educated when you were 18 you didn't know that that would be your journey so obviously that we all grow and understand and realize what our purpose and True North is like what can I actually give to the world beyond my skill like you know I just feel like creativity for me like a design skills is my Baseline is my ability to play instrument you know I don't have to look down my frbo to play on stage you know and that's the sort analogy so I don't have to sort of think like what do I press what do I do it's more about like how can I deliver to people how can I make a connection them feel something with what I do and how I can always rethink that concept you know how can I rethink it that it will be fresh within its own idea rather than you know inut originality now before we

### Looking out for your children [25:36]

went on air I believe you said it was past someone's bedtime so my presumption is you're a parent and you have a little human is that correct I've got two little humans yeah and the reason why we scheduled this for this evening is because they don't go to bed easy yeah I get it I'm sure you know that so as a parent I have to ask this question then we want to look out for our children we want them to have more love and less pain in their lives and if one of your children was literally kind of retracing your steps and bouncing from interest to interest do you just say like that's part of life's process I'm not going to interfere I need to let them explore as I've done or do you whisper in their it's like hey there's a couple things dad's seeing about you that you might want to try this versus that or get to this point sooner I'm just curious to kind of bring it home it's a really good question um I believe in leaving breadcrumbs so you just they can do whatever I mean they already have their lives are slightly differently pointed to a different direction than mine was in a way like you know they've got different sport different activities um already in their lives in a young age and I just showed them what I can do so I mean they take a little bit for I mean to them is the second nature that we got house full of books that I created you know so they're like they just play with it my little boys just about to turn four in a few weeks and he just stucks his little card with all of my books and I just look at him like oh please don't destroy them but you know it's that it's that moment of like their dad makes books their dad makes posters their makes campaigns packaging you know so we spend my agency is still going very much strong so we be making you know we working with ice cream brands and all sorts of different sort of things products and companies so their life is always like oh Dad did this you know be like they can see that they can make that connection because for me that connection took 20 plus years like oh people like me can make that I didn't know that I was like they have to be like special companies special interest whatever because there was no graphic designer what I was growing up like no one around me was a graphic designer whereas I am showing like I mean they work with my Wacom you know they got like apple pencils and iPads and they're making working up do be Fresco and they just to them like it's absolutely unfiltered creativity and I think what they do with it I don't know but they'll be definitely answering the point of their soul like they will answering that call you know that's that's what we've been given by you know by my parents like by that one by their parents you know like this is the ingredients you know so I believe that mixture of like okay let's bring in sport and interest and art and creativity it will create something I think there'll be complex interesting creative people because they already are over producing but and I introduced them in my second book called mindful creative as a pair of comedians because they are hilarious they're absolutely brilliant children really funny foury

### Follow the breadcrumbs [28:37]

old and how old is the other one a seven okay well I can't wait for you to have this experience with your children possibly where I remember when my son was old enough to kind of figure out what it do what I was doing he'd walk up to me and say Dad I think you should change this I think this will look better it's like I got a little mini art director telling me what to do and I have to smile like okay sure buddy sure let me just work on that right away let me make those changes so we'll see you said that you like to leave breadcrumbs it's the inference there that I'm going to leave clues for you but it's up to you to either follow the breadcrumbs or not it's entirely up to you like you could save yourself some pain or you know what you get to enjoy life and do whatever it is you want to do is that the case very much so yeah because I've listen to some interviews recently and people say like look we did what our parents did like we follow could see like there was instruments in the house we played instruments you know there was you know how many people say like I grew up in a musical household they're most likely musicians they're always people like who actually go and do and follow something because you showed them the scene you you said the scene you showed them the colors you showed them know the windows showed them the doors and go like okay that's what's available like are you going to have a look you know it's up to them of course like if their natural interest go somewhere completely different you know they might be selling houses or you know being in finance but you know that might be making them happy I just feel I'm 100% sure that my kids will choose something that makes them you know that's that point of call rather than oh you know that's what we feel like we have to do because do we really need to do this is as as a sort of society right now you could be anything in anyone these days I'm going back to the original point you can choose what makes you feel something and something good you have a very

### How does your interest manifest [30:22]

diverse background this is like a two-parter question how has your interest in music and journalism uh your studies and economics how does it manifest in the work that you do and the second part to is how does it manifest itself and how you manage your business so let's take it one at a time are all these things that you're playing around with and exploring and finding your own voice in the world are they making you a richer designer how does it manifest itself or or does it yeah I feel like of richer conversations with strangers like if if a potential a prospect comes along you know from the world of business music journalism you know it's it's these ingredients again like you know it's you know creativity sort of his like being a historian like journalist is basically like how do you tell the truth you know how do you how do you portray the reality and you know business you can you put it together and you kind of find yourself having conversations that already have a head start you know something if I was to say hey look I'm I've got very strong Book Pro you know what can I do for you it's more like Hey do you remember that ban from like 1995 they only released one album on is Japanese imprint some some of it will say yes and I have these most amazing conversation with people around the world because music is connected not connectivity you can talk about books you know you can talk about case studies about you know the hardwood business school and kind of stuff and and it's just it just opens these doors because the world is more colorful you know and it naturally translates into business because we have worked with such a know diverse range of clients from you know from Harry Potter to unsigned German American artists you know like music artist like it's but I treat it and a direct Studio to treat it in the same equal way because you have some you basically listening to someone's story you try to formulate it in the most beautiful way and then actually help them to position it for the outside world to actually be even better so it's like when you go ghost writers and they speak to Keith Richard for two three weeks and then they write you know section of a book like someone helps you to narrate it actually make a sense so of broader world can see it so that sort of diverse background it's I think it's been a gotten blessing in every single way because it's just yeah Rich a conversation with everyone you meet I just you don't have to take notes you just you just absorb and and could of open the lids and see like what's here what's there you know what can I do you know it's just it it's and I think was the most amazing thing about it is because you find lots of people like me I believe I'm not anomaly like found lots of people like that and actually being a design thinkers having so many conversations with so many people there I found so many like-minded Souls you know like even people who were lost and needed extra Spice in their life but people with a lot of spice going I need a bit more sort of strategy and original and be more sort of focused but we are unique in every single way but we are complimentary like we complement one another in some way we overlap around the edges and that's what makes us sort of richer in the makeup creativity and Society all of it it's

### Exploring the triangle [33:36]

like it's hard enough to be good at one thing but it seems like you explored like at least three parts of the triangle that I can see in terms of writing so expressing yourself through words uh through music either through playing or dejing or putting compositions together and then lastly through design the visual aspect of this it's quite a an amazing triangle like if you are also an actor I think you would have all corners of this geometric shape it's pretty awesome I love how you say like there's like this the things in the overlap how those three spheres overlap but also how if you have more spheres to play with when you meet a stranger it's easier for you to find common ground and have conversation where they feel like included in it and it feels like oh you can speak to that that's pretty cool and we love that we know that when we speak about design and we can make reference to philosophy through Cinema through photography through ART architecture and photography that the other person looks at us a little bit differently like you're not this singular narrow Focus person with blinders on there's a lot more to you than this and now we can have a really robust conversation about what it is that we're trying to do back to your original thing is like how can I help you and I think that's really cool I think if I was to add something to like I mean that was the natural funnels I think in like natural sort of the road widens and narrows down if I make makes sense so when you discover something into like a five Lane you know I mean from La you know 5 seven Lane mway but then you kind of you go down to like a single track because there were times in my life where I couldn't imagine myself being anything different than a m a music yeah I could imagine myself to be anything different than a graphic designer or illustrator I want it to be just that one thing because that's when you really focus on what's in there like you trying you pull it apart from like that single narrow track you're just like what's in it like I want explore everything that's on the walls I want to explore everything what the makeup of the situation and then it just naturally just goes and you add layers I think it just that's not something you plan for it just that's how it happens naturally but there were times where you know I'm talking out about all these sort of different spheres and influences and ingredients there were times where I was just like it's just now that's just one thing but with the age and the experience it just you know when you open up and obviously you sort of you master set sort of discipline certain techniques certain professions you know you become sort of comfortable you know like when I talked about being a sort of musical virtuosa you know like you can see like what do I do with the music now like how can I help other people with my music or with my creativity and that's the exciting part because it's just it's there like you know you just you you pick up your little menu of ingredients in your life and go okay what do we do with this now because you know more and you feel more comfortable with it yeah in terms of

### How to run your business [36:25]

like how you use that background in economics like H how do you run your company is it because I always describe myself to people I'm the exact marriage of my mom and my dad my mom is a super creative human being like headed in the cloud my dad's a very pragmatic like engineer kind of background is foot in the earth in the soil so I'm a split person where I may not be the most creative person uh like the most sophisticated get a business person but together I make a pretty good combination so there's these two sides in harmony with each other the business the logic and the kind of uh emotion and art and here you are and your background is like in economics and now you're running agency how do you run your business with these two sides or more I think it's the left and right brain isn't it like obiously you focus on I mean you get people who are just want to be in Photoshop all day long or in design or whatever creative application they want to do and they really that's what they need to be doing all day every day and for me it was always interesting because I came to UK as a Czech igr so I had to look after myself I didn't have the financial stability or the background or the network around me so I had to go and sell I had to actually look after myself and make it work and it was more like a survival Instinct you know like you just you look in and you're like okay so I can do this I can be a designer I can work with these people I can do this with type of work and you just grow you pinpoint all the mistakes situation you need to fix and you become a bit more sort of lean more better working machine if that makes sense in terms of like how do you get new clients how do you close how do you negotiate and how do you do this and and again through time and experience you know you learn how to do it better so my sort of knowledge of business management economics I mean it was from a different country but it was more about the how the how to cover a kind of instinct like how do you look after yourself how do you do this because no one else is going to do this for you for me when I look back and I when I look across the board like no one is waiting for anyone's greatness the next top designer to come out no one say like look there's a guy called George he was born over there we're going to make him the best designer in the world unless George wants to be that's going to happen and that kind of I felt like I found this I'll keep quoting this book which I absolutely love which is called it's not how good you are is how good you want to be by paarden that title enough is you don't even need a book and for me it was like I can be mediocre employeed designer and I tried that for a few years and I didn't like it because it just went that way I just felt like I hid like a plateaued really quickly because I was like what else is that I want to do more things want to apply for awards I want to do you know I've gone from career as a sort of Obsessed typographer designer into full-blown career as an illustrator in advertising for 10 years I was doing all sorts of amazing things just because I they let me do it I showed up I knocked on the doors and said hey can I do this for you can I do that with you I love what you do I want to be part of your narrative and then just you show up and you ask I mean this is I think the most biggest realization when I talk to students or up andcome was like you ask you asked to do this you know you can you can point your direction of your personal universe and in a certain know certain place but you still have to show up and ask that's what you have to do so that's how I found that balancing and creativity and business is kind of connected because overall you talk about someone else's business and it's your business I want to ask you

### Practical tips [40:18]

some practical things pulling from the book itself creativity for sale what are some practical tactical things that someone can do to succeed in this creativity for sale world where people are struggling with finding a client finding how to talk about the value of the work that they do pricing uh dealing with clients who don't respect their process and they feel like buried in all that stuff can you give us like maybe your top handful of tips and maybe we can then dig deeper into the some of them I mean the cue is in being comfortable with yourself because I love the quote by uh K newort it's like is not you know be so good that they can't ignore you like it's and I think it goes hand in hand with the other quote it's like you want to be person of knowledge you know you want to have you want to work on yourself you want to show up ready because lots of people show up half cooked not even po boiled and that's the nature of creativity so I just feel you've got the fuel the feel magic formula and superpower how does that work so with the fuel and feel it's kind of like a norstar like no you can be a slacker and then you can see a graphic design and you're like I want to do this I want to get up at 6 o' in the morning and I do it till 10 o'clock in the evening that's your nor star that's your feel the type of design that you choose that's your feel like how no what how makes what it makes you feel actually what is what does it sort of give you the reward inside and then the magic formula is what type of design you creating like what what do you make that's as unique that's it's your own and your superpower is the you know is what will get you up at 5 o' in the morning and deliver you know because you will get few kns you know a few bumps in the road and the superpower your tenacity your negotiation skills that's what will make you work harder that's what will and sometimes superpower can sort of know knock you over because you can be bloody minded and you can work know 18 hours a day like I did you know that was my superpower because I that made me show up every day but you know it was ultimately quite dangerous because you know it made everything too sort of tuned up and to too the volume Amplified everything too much but finding new clients I mean I think that people make lots of mistakes with trying to work with everyone and know nich and early is the hardest thing you can do because you know how do you know if you haven't worked with anyone how do you know who to Niche with who know who what to do you can go by your feel and feel you know like what do I want to do what makes me happy rather than people trying to find market gaps and stuff and you want to woo people you know it's like know how do you get people to fall in love with you that's the same story because you don't go and say look I'm the most amazing designer in this world you know come and work with me you say I think what you do really I really like it I really like what you do you're very good but if I could help you in some way we can even make it better you know and you change the narrative you go you don't go like I'm an a Able Body designer come and get me you know I'm here you know the time is ticking it doesn't work that way you don't show up to a DAT and go like I'm a pretty big deal you know you don't go like to well speak for yourself I mean I'm not a big deal you know so it's making sure that you worked on yourself that you created right launch pad for people to come to you and say you know what yes we can do this together so it's definitely that's where it starts I do want to ask you this

### Losing your mojo [43:56]

question based on this idea of fuel or your superpower in that sometimes I do get people ask me this question which is something like uh I seem to have lost my mojo uh how do I become passionate about design again because I just don't feel the same way I used to I have my response but I'm curious what you say about that since part of your thing is like your Northstar the thing that gets you up at 5: in the morning they've lost that what do they need to do now I think I mean there's actually quite a few different answers to it when you lose your mojo because sometimes it's just losing your State losing yourself you know you can have a child you can have other factors outside work that make you work make you not enjoy your work because I've debated that recently like the creative work is not the problem you know if you're not enjoying your creative work is because something outside of the process is making you not enjoy it it's like a complaint is only nominally about a person it's more about a person you complain about it's more about yourself like if you don't like something that you normally enjoy is because something's not quite right and we are complex well human beings and sometimes we pretend that we are very simple and every everything should be sunshine and ice cream all day every day of course it's not because you know everything changes the weather changes you know we change like we don't always have not happiest of moods our chemical makeup's not always the same but it's kind of like that that's one part because you know you can give the work to somebody else and they can think that's the best thing in the world and you can be doing this and your ego can kick in and go like I should be doing better than this I should be paid more for this you know I've not negotiated the right price or they the client negotiated better fee for themselves so I'm not going to do a best job on this that's your ego the work there's nothing wrong with the work so the Mojo is like sometimes it's the acceptance that you're not gonna have amazing run for forever you know sometimes you have to actually be broad B broad down a little bit by the universe and say you know what appreciate because when it's sunny when everything's working you should enjoy this you know you should actually not enjoy every single day and find that little piece of dopamine in whatever you do just to make sure that's you know you're actually doing something for yourself because it's you can easily be stuck on a project for months on end that got no dopamine you know it's a battlefield it's like you know it's just you can only look at the current state of the world when know people are fighting and just it's not going anywhere just that's nothing there so it's about finding the natural sources of little winds celebrating little winds is where you know if something goes well as miniature as it is as a minuscule celebrate it you know good call like someone replied to your email celebrate it like hey this is good let's put it on a good pile because we as humans tend to focus on negatives as you know our problem solving nature is because we need something like as a fuel we need a fuel for our minds and sometimes we just happy to focus on the negatives even though we've got a cupboard full of awards and happy wins you know and that's how it is so Mojo is definitely from within like it the world often is the same if that makes sense you know the work is often the same it's just how your ego in your world how your state you know can be because I was in in a situation when our son was born nearly four years ago and I was tired and I just published book on branding it was like it did it was a bestseller it was incredible numbers it was getting work from everywhere I didn't enjoy any of it I was so tired you know everything was like everything on paper looked amazing yet I was like I think I want to change a career I'm not enjoying this I've got to clients I wanted I don't enjoy because I was tired and a few months later you know things changed and I was like oh yeah I can

### Is design for you [47:55]

enjoy it now well your answer was much Kinder than my answer I'm G tell you what I told the person who asked this question and I'd love to get your honest raw feedback on it so I think they said like hey I I'm not motivated to do design or whatever they said anymore so what can you tell me and I said you know maybe design is not for you that in a world of people who are Super Hyper passionate the people who have their fuel and their superpower they're going to eat your lunch every single day of the week so I'm not here to make you excited about something you're not excited about maybe friends told you should be a DJ and that's not what you're supposed to be or maybe they told you should have been a journalist and until you find your thing the thing that really is like you need no more extra motivation because I don't want to sell you motivation convince you to become passionate about something that's coming from a deep place within you that when things align you just know what's your thoughts on that yeah I think there's an extra few layers I think to that sort of scenario I think someone says I don't think it's for me I'm like I think that's more than just in a few nights know a few nights of a good sleep and and and a couple of invoices pay but right I think there's a natural pivot I mean if I mean I've met so many people in my life who were like oh I don't like living in this town I don't want to do this and that I'm like well don't change do it like absolutely like I mean there's there many things in my life where just and a number of clients that we had to get rid of because it wasn't working on paper it looked amazing but it wasn't working you don't want to be battling stuff because I keep repeating myself but the universe will reward you for making the right choices you know like if you trip yourself up you know then mathematically two negatives equal positive but in life two negatives equal definitely more than two negatives you know it's it's if you if you point yourself in the wrong direction then that direction will not reward you like if not because you're making the wrong choices so it's like what is the good for me and there's this whole sort of concept that I'm go my second book called mindful creative about how we need to some sometimes stop and reevaluate like actually audit what you've created because we go 100 miles an hour every day like we create so much stuff you know we try to do all the LinkedIn posts and social posts and all the clients and all the deals and all the you know pitch tags and all of that and then try to be parents and know partners and human beings and athletes and all that stuff when do you stop when do you actually look back and say actually you know what I I don't know where I'm going because it all feels fine but I just feel like something's telling me I should be doing this but am I doing it for my soul myself I think that's that's the key like when do we stop so I because of these books I have taken out a year of new client work not client work but new client work I've not accepted any client work for more than a year now only just being with the existing clients and just make a sense of what I want to do you know do I want to when I push to the top of the pile and fight for the place in the spotlight or do you want to service very good clients and do something that makes me happy too so of build my natural pivot because you know when you go to these conferences and you got really old designer like I'm going to stop Cent work I'm like wait a minute everyone here starting up and your advice is to stop in client work how does this it doesn't make sense you know so I think it's just explaining how we go through these seasons of our careers and seasons of Our Lives that change and naturally sort of lend themselves to different things so it's one of these rare

### Change your content [51:31]

instances where I go to a conference and I'm so overscheduled that I literally after our book signing I had to dash out there and go to the airport to catch my next flight so I didn't get a chance to see you speak so I I'm using this opportunity what are you speaking about today or on that day what are you most passionate about so I am I have changed my content if that makes sense I've change my content because as you know my from my LinkedIn my motto is if you look and sound like everybody else then you think the market is saturated and I've been on a on on a conference stages for the last 10 11 years and I feel like I've seen the same talk or especially like the midg ground talk every time and I was like I'm I'm not coming home excited or empowered or inspired I was like I always goinging like I want to do something different I want like in a way like I want to actually go have people to actually go home and be and say we've seen this talk we want to refer this to our college or our uni or a company we want something which just because everyone's really good at creativity now you know you don't have to go to any know amazing event just to see people PR presenting really inspiring work like not work that really it's Technic incredible right but when you speak to people off stage everybody break everyone breaks the same you know people still ask and a new testament like people still ask how do I get clients well we've been getting clients for 200 years we know how to get clients it's not a secret you know we we get people going well how do I burn out what how do I stop burning out like what we've been burning out for hundreds of years again we can stop this like we just need to share how we communicate and how we educate ourselves especially about ourselves so the reason why I did two books and we talking about one of them so we did creativity for sale about how to launch a business with a second book on mindful creative about how not to break yourself doing all of this because people we all break the same we and we all break very easily you know and it's just like the content was is about you know offering people the content from creativity for sale like okay you can build yourself as a brand as a someone who stands for something because if you stand for something you know you have people for you and against you like I think that's Bill Berard um and it's just like it's okay to take side you your position and built on top of it and actually be know doubl down on it and see how it works if it doesn't you can change I'm very much if you've seen in a book it's like if you don't like it change use this like use this nugget and do something different with it like you never know where it's gonna take you and so my main talk is actually mindful creative at the moment which I'm talking very open about early panic attacks as a child you know I talk about you know therapy I talk about how we overload ourselves and how to actually avoid it because it doesn't matter if I'm speaking to mature crowd or a bunch of students I'm currently doing these talks like almost once or twice a week on in person and online and it resonated with everyone because when you're young you feel you you're alone when you get old you think you're still alone if that makes sense you know sometimes it's okay to have someone to say you know what everything's fine you know it it's shaky it doesn't always work out so in for example in Toronto I did mindful creative including breathing exercises so teaching people like how to do books breathing for 478 um uh body scan so my books contain actually meditation sort of section like meditation files just to slowly inform people I'm not I don't want to educate or impose is more like this is the stuff that helped me and it was the stuff that I was rejecting for a decade before I said you know what let's do this let's actually Let's help ourselves let's make a sense of it all let's go to therapy let's actually do this so yeah the second book is landing incredibly because no one asked for this book you know I'm I'm curating my own content and I'm investing my time and energy and my funds and resources to say look I believe the universe needs this and you know and it's proven on data it's proven on social listening it's proven on you know on on just validating this from conversation with my friends and colleagues like it's proven on conversation from friends and colleagues that this is the common stuff you know like it's our creativity goes in different paths you know everyone if you want to be 3D designer or 2D illustrator or programmer we go in our different corners but we are humans first and foremost we are humans that break the same know that overwork that burn out and that's how we know even the stuff from creativity for sale is quite Universal about like this is how you get your clients business set up this is how you look after yourself this is how you get paid the kind of stuff so um I've got number of different workshops I'm doing as well at the moment like we did a Color Workshop that's unlock people's creative language uh because it all stems down to experience as a you know branding director like working with clients who you know don't necessarily work with language like we do as a creator is and there's lots of creative people who don't necessarily exercise their language as much as we should do you know so we only see now when this last 10 years of the the boom of our sort of designer content creator when actually people speak on camera on YouTube whereas 20 years ago no one wanted to speak about anything like here's my work goodbye you know so creating more universally for sort of I'm like multifaceted people who actually who can deal with everything kind of break know break the process and metabolize it and and grow better and grow stronger it sounds to me

### Mental health and longevity [57:30]

like what you're interested in what you're writing about in your other book mindful creative is about possibly Mental Health and Longevity so that we can have this burst but how do you keep that spark going I think all of us can start something and make a little bit of smoke and a little heat but it takes a very intentional practice and a discipline not only to take care of your art but mind and your body in the three world work together like you can't be creative if you're broken physically if you ache from pain or if you're massively overweight if you're obese and you can't I don't think do this long term if you're a broken human on the inside where you're suffering from so much like imposter syndrome or perfectionism or self-doubt and self-criticism I the question I have for you and I'm mindful of time here so I'll get you out of here soon promise is when I speak about therapy in Europe I get some dirty looks and I get some not so nice comments don't uh push that American therapy thing on us I'm like oh I I didn't know I was being vulnerable I'm not trying to force my hand here in the Italian audience that was there was like whoa that was a pretty strong reaction I'm just curious from a European's point of view how is the general design creative Community feel about therapy and then I have a follow-up question with you I mean we are I mean I'm originally from chicken Republic so there's a section in the book like how everybody around me was normal everyone was probably normal you know everyone was a train wak but you know if if you admitted that you're not okay it's like it's a dirty look you know like you know what and and I grew up sort of with that vision of you know therapy was something that people did in movies you know like okay so there's Robert DeNiro shooting a cushion you know like this is the form of hilarious therapy and it was only when I sort of moved to England where I lived with a family for a bit where there were people working through some stuff they were actually working stuff out and I was like okay so I can see firsthand the positive effect of actually working on yourself like working through stuff because I didn't know for 40 years then the first 40 years of my life and not exactly ideal in every single way I thought they were fine I thought I was like look I'm on top of the world I'm working I'm earning I'm you know relatively successful but my relationships are breaking out you know like I'm not a good husband father you know it's all about working now that the things that we can sort of pre-program as a children as and young adult have a massive effect on us in our later lives you know because you can be fighting with clients for almost no reason because what are we doing whereas if you find that sort of if you work on yourself you're more of a sort of well chiseled article to actually deal with situations you can actually listen better you know like um which is the important about I remember in your talk you did that thing that Chris Vos says that you know you repeat things to people back you know like you make sure that they are heard whereas if you're not comfortable at yourself you want to be heard you don't want to listen to anyone you want people everyone to listen to you so going back to therapy uh I mean yeah I mean we still got a lot of work around here to do on actually getting people to understand that it's beneficial for everyone because in a book by Dan Martell he says you know when you do things outside your work for yourself you actually help in and everybody around you to be happier because you are more content within yourself so yeah um I mean I'm very open in a book about therapy I'm very open about suggesting therapy and lots of different ways of how you can work on yourself because it's the number one thing I've done for myself and all the work I spend in Adobe Creative Cloud of making myself better creative it was not almost to nothing because therapy is what made me better creative because I was I've switched on my intell emotional intelligence you know I've switched on how I can understand people that that's what makes us better rather than you know still try to find that corner without any help I appreciate you for saying that I think In some cultures especially I don't I just say amongst men in particular to say that I need help or I'm not 100% is a sign of weakness that we can't even admit and so then now not only do we not get the help that we need or support but then we are kind of attacking ourselves like why am I so weak when in fact I think what you were saying is when you growing up like everybody had all kinds of stuff messed up that they had to put on his face and pretend like everything is okay so I want to do my part in this world because I benefit from therapy myself and that to normalize the conversation I'm not trying to impose anything on anybody If part of this conversation resonates with you please explore it if it doesn't don't worry I'm just telling you what's work for me and I'm just glad that you talk about as well because we do want to be doing the thing that gives us so much joy for us long us possible it's like we want to play into end of time not play and then have to switch gears because we couldn't make it work and I think part of that is to make sure you're okay your mental health is really strong the question the last followup question I have for you is this is what are the top key takeaways you got from seeing a therapist just one or two things because I learned so much from my therapist I feel like it's a master class in life it was the cheapest education I've ever gotten and the most powerful I've done 10 years of in therapy and I've done um just classic me I suppose I've done five or six different things so I haven't been with just one therapist start I've started with cognitive behavioral therapy uh because I had some anxieties I was so burned out I couldn't even cross the road or bridge and I was so messed up so it was you know what ra world calls like mood follows action so you have to get yourself out of there and actually do it because if you still sit at home you know nothing's going to change um then I did then actually I think the most beneficial for him was marriage counseling because that's when I unlocked a lot of from my past know especially for my childhood so I got to understand that you know you actually listen to people you you you step into their world and actually know take an interest and try to decipher what they saying rather than what you think you're hearing um then I did some sort of anxiety coaching as one of the things I tried and that was literally just purely what I've learned there was like I actually do listen just whatever you do just step back let your intelligence because our intelligence tries to bat in all the time I've got the answer like imagine yourself you can't speak until somebody El say stop speaking which was really good um one of the therapists said like people come here because they don't want to feel bad yet what they need to come here to do is to learn how to not feel how to feel okay not feeling okay you know like it's okay for our projects not to go well you know it's okay to deal with the situation we always feel like I've said the momentum it should work and it doesn't and it's just like how do you come back from this and the last form of therapy I did was Equine Therapy so I felt like everything this is typal in my life and Chris this is like a therapy session now because I felt that all the different P knowledge that I picked up from these different sessions and these different years sort of congregate it like they come together in the last session last few sessions but I had as an equ therapy and what it entails is that did you stand literally in a paddock with a horse you got horse on the lead and there's a therapist asking you questions and you projecting the the sensations and the thoughts the horse can sense it you know I've learned so much about horses because I'm married to um my wife got like six horses now you know she's always had horses in life and you know she's I mean she's the one you wanted to on her podcast on your podcast because she's the clever one you know she's got a six sense and you kind of learn about how we actually how we project and radiate our feelings and how we sort of operate because yeah whenever I mean when we go to Stables with know to The Stables with our kids and you know it's just you feel like oh the horse is actually scared like there's something I can do about this and you learn more about the exchange of the information like of the feelings you know of like the non-verbal language is like how do you help others and that was kind of like where everything where I've stopped for now like because I made peace with certain part of my life and it just it's just so liberating because you know you can never tell your emotional intelligence you know like to have a reaction like people things will still derail you like things will upset you but it's how quickly do you come back because you understand yourself how you work so I mean we can talk about takeaways for therapy for ages this last type of therapy did you say equestrian therapy is that what the word or you said something else equin equestrian yeah equin equestrian B on likees right I believe in America use it for example with like the veterans you know like when you've got real people with PTSD then they actually go and work with horses and my wife is now um I mean she's do lots of things but she's actually know qualified therapist and it's incredible because you're making life you're making difference in people's lives because you You Mend them you get a broken article and you just send them back into World know understanding more about themselves which helps everyone I just want to pick up on something here so the therapy is done with a horse and you're saying the horse can sense your energy your emotions right it could feel what you're feeling right so this is incredible to me because there's just part that we think like okay we've seen it all we've done at all so we only understand what our eyes and our mind can process but through science we realize this ible light rays what humans can see is actually very small part of the spectrum of light and so I've always felt this way like when I was younger and I was a little bit SC scared of like dogs and cats right like Strays you know and I thought like think positive thoughts don't be scared and I would see not a onetoone correlation but I'm like oh I think there's something here that animals can see things like just the color of our mood let's just say and they can see that just as you and I can see green red or purple they can see this so it's fascinating to me like they have the horse as part of the therapy and it's really neat it's just it's so awesome to hear that you've been doing this for 10 years you've explored consistent with your narrative many different types but all of this I think is for me to say like you know what you're a very eloquent Wells spoken well- read person very calm and grounded and I think you've done a lot of work on yourself to know thyself and it's no wonder that you've been able to be such a prolific writer um and you know I I've really enjoyed our conversation today I want to encourage every single person here that if you if you've gotten value from today go check out one of the many books that rodam has written and he's mentioned a couple but you've written the book of ideas the book of branding which was like really well received the book that I was holding up creativity for sale and the latest one I believe is the mindful creative did I miss any books in there yeah it's just I mean there's six of them in total um there's a mindfulness Journal U which was book Number Four and book of ideas volume one and two mean there there's two volumes I mean there are they go from very colorful very picturesque you know full of illustrations and and work examples all the way to just illustrations and words because I think the value I mean if someone finds value from this it's just like don't wait till it's too late because we've got this phrase in the book says if you're thirsty it's not you're already dehydrated if you need help with your mental health you're already in trouble you know so it's anchor yourself so you don't Drift Away too far from the sh because we are so good at telling ourselves we not in trouble yeah you know because if we knew you were burning out you would stop do we no and that's the problem so yeah just try to work on yourself because you will get so many rewards Beyond just the mechanical and sort of technical knowledge you know it's just that's where the magic really happens because you can connect with people in so many different ways and the work becomes much easier to do well he's not just a nice hockey player not just a guy who plays in a death metal band or an indie DJ and a music journalist a prolific writer a designer a an entrepreneur a public speaker he's a real human being with real human needs and just real relatable thank you very much for being part of our podcast today thanks for having me Chris this was pleasure thank you and if people want to find out more about you where should we send them I think we'll send them to my website ryen mal. co. uk that's the links to everywhere I mean if you follow me on social I've got far too many websites far too many projects far too many books but I can be also F on Instagram so yeah if you type in R him into Google I'll pretty much come up as the first result wonderful I would expect nothing less from you a person who has multiple websites and diverse interests till to this day and in 30 or 40 years I hope they multiply over time like there's even more stuff that for us to dig up uh thanks so much again thank you very much for having me thank you Chris hi this is Rin manage and you're listening to the Future