# How soap opera-TikTok hybrids became a billion-dollar market | Equity Podcast

## Метаданные

- **Канал:** TechCrunch
- **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9-ha9rpBuE
- **Источник:** https://ekstraktznaniy.ru/video/35097

## Транскрипт

### Segment 1 (00:00 - 05:00) []

Hello and welcome back to Equity Tech Crunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. I'm Rebecca Balan and this is the episode where we bring on industry experts to help us explore a trend in the tech world and dive deep. Today it's not just me. I have on our Techrunch senior reporter Amanda Silverling with me. Hey Amanda, what's good? Hello. I'm doing well. I've been thinking a lot about micro dramas lately and social media and I guess like werewolf billionaire romance maybe. So, it's a interesting time over here. Well, perfect timing because we've got a guest on to talk about all of that. So, for those of you who don't know, over the past few years, a new category of mobile apps has quietly exploded into a multi-billion dollar business. They're called micro dramas, short form, mobile first scripted shows, usually about a minute long, designed to be watched vertically from your phone. So, think soap opera meets Tik Tok with plot lines ranging from secret billionaire romances to disapproving werewolf mothers-in-law. The leading app, Real Short, made $1. 2 2 billion in consumer spending last year alone. Today we're talking to a founder who thinks this category can be something a lot better than that. Henry Sunung is the founder of Watch Club. Henry, welcome to the show. — Hi Rebecca. Hi Amanda. Thank you guys for having me today. — Before we get into Watch Club, tell us a little bit about why this category and why now. I think this is maybe the most interesting thing happening in all of consumer video in the United States. For me, it's the micro drama industry is interesting for two reasons. Number one, the industry was born in China a few years ago, the same time that Quibby failed disastrously in Los Angeles. But in China, it grew so quickly. It's now larger than the entire movie industry. I think 40% of all Chinese people are daily active watchers of this. And many of those entrepreneurs are now coming to the western world to say we think that there's an audience for this as well in the western world. And so from a pure market standpoint, from a pure why now standpoint, it's because this thing first worked in the biggest media market in the world. And now some of the smartest builders want to prove that it's possible to go and like help people in the west watch TV on their phones. That's like the market and the why now. But truthfully, if I can be candid with you guys, like the reason why I care about this category is I'm just a big TV geek. I describe myself passionately as like the ultimate TV fan girl. And a few years ago, I just fell in love with like short form European teen dramas that were already experimenting with how TV could be differently watched and talked about. And so, yes, the market is ripe because this thing is growing so fast right now in Los Angeles. But really, I'm just a person who loved the like the European like reviewlet of this and said, can we make things more like this for American audiences? — I think to me, what made me interested in this sector is that sometimes since we are tech journalists and this is what we're involved in every day, things can seem really obvious to us that aren't obvious to the outside world. So over the holidays, I was talking to my brother and I off-handedly mentioned like, "Oh yeah, and then there's these like micro drama apps that are making billions of dollars. " And my brother works in tech. And he was like, "What are you talking about? " And then that sort of was what made me think, it's this massive industry that people don't know about and that's such an interesting place for it to be in. But then at the same time, how we were talking about in the intro, a lot of the stories are very like pulpy, like billionaire mother-in-law, werewolf, insert a bunch of like tropey adjectives here. And this isn't me being a media elitist. Like I love is Blind. I've seen every episode of America's Next Top Model. Like this isn't me being like, "Oh, I only watch prestige television. " This is like it actually feels like Watt Pad. — Yeah. I mean — I don't know what Watt Pad is. So, I was excited when I found out about Watch Club and interviewed Henry and was like, "Okay, someone is approaching this format, but trying to make content that isn't just like lowest common denominator, quickest thing possible, actually using union talent and like thinking about storytelling in short form and not about like just purely the financial aspect. " — Yeah. Well, I mean, you make a good point. There are so many. There's another app, Drama Box, that made 276 million last year. Tik Tok launched its own micro drama app, Pine Drama. Henry, talk a little bit about what makes Watch Club different. Obviously, you know, Amanda kind of teed you up there. Not as many tropes, working with kind of higher quality content. How do you do this? — Absolutely. Let me first start by celebrating what is so excellent about these apps because we can say like we can laugh at this but I actually think that what Drama Box and Real Shore and all these like great competitors have done is they've achieved what Quibby did not five six years ago.

### Segment 2 (05:00 - 10:00) [5:00]

Quibby spent $2 billion and couldn't quite crack content market fit or product market fit. And I think for the better part of a half decade, everyone here in Los Angeles was saying this will never happen. like if Jeffrey Kenberg couldn't figure it out, why would we ever try again? And so I do want to celebrate and I don't think we should denigrate what like a certain American audience loves. And I think it's easy — speak for yourself. — I think it's easy for straight leaders in the tech industry to be like, "This isn't a serious industry. The only thing we care about is AI. " But truthfully, like women keep the publishing industry afloat by buying romance novels, romantic. And I don't think we should laugh at what they like. there is a real market for like somewhat tropey, somewhat simple storytelling, but it makes you feel a certain way. And so I do want to respect and celebrate all of that. Uh because without them, I don't think anybody would have bet on our little company after the failure of a much larger $2 billion player six years ago. So that's my starting point. I also think that like we have a pretty clear, strong, different opinion about who our audience is and how you reach and engage with them in the year 2026. Most of the buyers of real short and drama boxes shows today are women of a certain age. I would say that they're women basically like my mom's age. They have high disposable income. They really like romance books and novels. And what Real Short Co produce for them is like a romance novel on steroids that you don't have to read. You can watch. And I think that's a very powerful market. However, I perceive these producers and these platforms as having a hard time growing beyond that early niche. They're struggling reaching men who love sports, younger women who love reality TV, teen dramas and high school dramas, that sort of thing. And so the way I think about watch club is we want to serve young people on the internet who are most responsible for the spread of new shows, new ideas, new memes because when they passionately love something like heated rivalry, like the summer I turned pretty, they kind of just want to talk about and spread memes all day long on the internet. And so our goal at Watch Club is to serve young women in high school and college and LGBTQ students create shows that they love so much that they just want to talk about and spread memes on the internet all day long. That's like the difference in audience. Older people who have high disposal income versus young people whose real currency is like their enthusiasm and their excitement to go spread new things that they love to each other. Yeah, I think maybe to put a bit more of a pin on what bothers me about the drama box, the real short, those sorts of apps that we haven't touched on is the monetization model. Basically, the storytelling, they all feel very similar. I was watching a bunch when I was researching them to write about them and the amount of content I saw of girl falls, her glasses fall off, a man comes up, he realizes that without her glasses, she's actually really pretty and then he stands up for her — um in the face of the bully. Um just stuff like that. But it's like we're not above it. Like this can be entertaining. Like these stories can be interesting. — Yeah. But the thing is that as you're watching them, you're like, "Okay, I'm on the side of this girl who fell and her glasses fell off and the guy thinks she's pretty because this other girl is being mean to her for no reason and I don't like that. " But then they give you dialogue where it's like she can stand up to the girl or she can like run away and then sometimes you have to use inapp currency to be able to stand up to her. — What? Wait, you choose? Is that how this works? — For some of them, not all of them. — Is yours interactive, Henry? Ours is not interactive in the sense that it's not a choose your own adventure platform, but it's interactive in the sense that our audience is constantly talking to each other after every episode airs. We have like poll questions and like selfie reactions where people are like, you know, expressing how they think and how they feel about the latest episode. So interactive, not in a you get to influence the show interactive in that you're immersed in the community of people talking to each other. — So how do you monetize? Are you doing this kind of microtransaction thing or is it going to be advertising? What's the go? — One thing Rebecca and Amanda I talked about this a few weeks ago is like we're much earlier company than real short or drama box and so in the immediate time horizon monetization is not a goal or priority. I describe Watch Club as a social network and in the same ways that social networks focus on growing and getting to scale before they figure out exactly what their monetization is. That's a similar approach that I want to follow. So launching our next shows over the next few months most of what you'll see is like our shows our fans talking to each other and in success we you should see our fans starting to talk to each other even off platform on Instagram on Tik Tok even in private messages like iMessage or other places eventually at scale the way I think we'll monetize is through ads and other

### Segment 3 (10:00 - 15:00) [10:00]

premium experiences that super fans will want to indulge in I think about this way the microtransaction business model that the rest of the industry is doing makes a lot of sense based on I would say like Chinese behavioral characteristics on the internet which are highly transactional. Many Chinese internet users grew up without their computer as their first interactive device. They just leave product and went straight to their phones. And mobile games are much more advanced in China than in the western world. And microtransactions are a very dominant form of like how you play games in China. I think in the US people are much more used to premium models where you might get something for free and pay for it another way like ads on social media or you know like watch something for x number of minutes and then pay for it beyond that. My general observation is you can convince older people with high disposable income to pay 50 cents per episode for something. I don't think your average college student or high school student really has that kind of money. And even [clears throat] more importantly like she's used to free Tik Tok and YouTube. I don't think you convince your like average young person to pay per episode for anything really other than Only Fans. And as a result, I think our business model is going to be inspired by like make reasonably budgeted shows, give them away for free. Those shows have to be really talkworthy and buzzworthy and then build a business where our audience sticks around after the episode to be social with each other and find interesting ways to go monetize that. So very concretely, yes. So, is it more Tik Tok or Netflix economics, right? — Yeah. I mean, you know, without having built any monetization features, it's hard to know exactly what this will look like. I think subscriptions are also hard for your average young person who's used to free video on her smartphone. So, I suspect the business model might look somewhat like Tik Tok or Instagram, but truthfully, I think the better metaphor might be the way that the Disney media business works where, you know, like 80 years ago, Walt Disney drew a like a cartoon business map and he said, "We're going to make money by centering our empire in the movie theater. You pay $20 to go watch Frozen. " But if you love Frozen, you might sing in karaoke songs in your car on Spotify with your niece. And like that's a business music. And if you love that, like maybe there's merchandise we can sell you and licensing and TV show spin-offs and blah blah blah. And really what the Disney's business model is it is an IT business model. You fall in love with the show and you create more products and extensions so that your fan community can feel connected to that thing you love. I think the building a social network around TV is can you do that? get someone to come in to watch a three-minute long episode of one of our shows every day and get them excited to hang out with their three best friends and like spend an incremental 5, 10, 20 minutes being social in other ways in relationship to that show. And that's the real business opportunity. — Can I just say so I think let me say why this scares the crap out of me. Like this is you're combining two extremely addictive app qualities, right? social media, which gives us the feeling that we're connecting with people when we're actually not, and short form video, which a lot of people are widely blaming it for destroying attention spans, right? We're in an era where social media companies are being sued for their addictive design features, etc. So, how do you defend this? Like, your product is basically short form drama engineered for binge consumption. Are you worried about facing regulatory scrutiny? Do you think this is good for society? I mean, not to like on it's a cool idea. I think like on the one hand I'm like this is incredible. On the other hand, I'm like h our brains the rot. — Oh boy. — Yeah, it's a heavy I tried to deliver. — Rebecca, I think I take your exact stance. Um, and that's the reason why I want to build this company. We haven't discussed this, but Amanda and I discussed this when we first met. before building watch club with my teammates. I used to be a product manager at Meta and um I think it's like one can both be proud of like the things that they build with intentionality and have worries about the unintended consequences of what they build at the same time. I think that is the nature of being a creator of anything whether it's content or technology. The reason why I'm building watch club right now is because I feel like despite good intent, I think that modern social media creates a really scary landscape for young people growing up. Yes, there's like good and wonderful corners of the internet, but there's a lot of really dark up messaging for young people. I'm building this company because I think that great grounded stories about young people coming of age can radically shape the way they see themselves and each other. And while the billionaire werewolf housewife plots are really successful on Real Short and

### Segment 4 (15:00 - 20:00) [15:00]

Drama Box, that's not really the tone of the stories that I want to create with my team. We want to create grounded coming of age stories about young women, LGBTQ teens coming of age, confronting the biggest problems, anxieties, and issues in their lives and help shape the discourse of the internet by showing young people a story and a protagonist that's going through something tough that is highly relatable and then opening up a conversation that helps young people do something more meaningful than just doom scroll for three hours at a time on their TikTok. I think your question is exactly valid, Rebecca. And I think it is at the heart of why I wanted to build this company. It's not because I just want to make a billion bucks marketing softcore porn to my mom's, you know, like age demographic. I don't think that's lucrative, but interesting of a problem to go solve. I think the more interesting problem to go solve is can we help shape the way young people see themselves and communicate about what's important with each other on the internet. And I think the union of stories and communities like an iceberg, the story is the tip of the iceberg and the community is the mass of the iceberg. I think we can radically improve what the internet serves to young people today. I think to me something that is also interesting about watch club is combining where the media is being put out and where people are talking about it which I don't necessarily view online fan communities as a bad thing although sometimes they can get very toxic. Um, — I'm over here in like cats eye Reddit and like it it's a weird place, but — I think with even like you mentioned heated rivalry earlier, which I do want to draw a distinction between that and micro drama. Like one is a well produced show and one is like not. But — yeah, — part of why these things become so popular is because people watch the show and they like it and then they go on Reddit and they talk on Reddit about it and then they go on like there's like the Instagram memes. Like my friends and I are still sending Heated Rivalry like little like Animal Crossing edits to Heated Rivalry back and forth to each other. — Yeah. — And fandom is a really powerful tool that can be monetized. I think that K-pop does this really well, but also at the same time, it's like there are also problems in the K-pop model, both in how the bands are formed and in the fan communities that freak me out. So yeah, I mean I think Rebecca is getting at an interesting tension here where on one hand it's like yeah, I love like talking about Love is Blind and Bridgetgerton with my friends, but then also I don't know if I think Netflix is good for society. — Yeah. Like so two questions there then. Um, one, if you're kind of following something like a Tik Tok monetization model, how are you optimizing for time spent? engagement the same way Tik Tok does? And that's question one, and I'm doing a nested question here, so I appreciate you holding on. The second one is, if it came out years later that like I'm addicted to this platform, there's like a big problem with addiction. Would you change the way? It's hard to say cuz you'll have shareholders and a board that'll tell you not to do that, but like would you want to change the way that you designed the platform? Like I think that this is a time when you really have to be mindful and like you know short shows, short hooks, like cliffhers, all of these little tools that are used to keep people doing more. Like I would say I definitely have a little Netflix addiction at the moment, right? And like those are long like you know that's like a full episode and I'm like next — 100%. Um I think let me know if this is reductive but I think that the way that people interact with media could be described as intentional or unintentional. And I think when you spend a tremendous amount of time unintentionally doing something that can feel uh kind of like a rabbit hole that doesn't pay off and reward anyway. But when you do something that's intentional, even if it's for hours, like for me, I could spend six hours reading a Salman Rushy novel and that might be the happiest thing I do all week. And I hope that people wouldn't treat that as a waste of time or as bad for society. Here's this distinction that I want to draw. Social media, at least the mainstream platforms today are platforms of by design unintentionality. You show up, you don't particularly know what you're looking for when you open up Instagram or Tik Tok, but you just know you're here to like waste, not even waste, you're here to spend some time. Mediums and intentionality are reading a book, listening to a podcast, watching a TV show, listening to your favorite album. There is a choice there. you are seeking out something and it doesn't

### Segment 5 (20:00 - 25:00) [20:00]

feel at least it doesn't always I won't like put like a blanket over this but mediums of intentionality create rewards and payoffs for audiences and they I just like the second part of this sorry this is kind of a messy answer but like I grew up as kind of like a dorky geeky kid didn't make friends easily and I think if it weren't for my favorite TV shows or books podcast even exists and comics. If it weren't for those sorts of things, I don't think I would have known how to go make friends. But loving something so deeply and wanting to talk to the kid who seems slightly too cool who sits next to you in fourth grade, that's like the substrate by which I was able to form friendships with other people. And I suppose Rebecca, Amanda, the way that I see the world here is stories are a form of media that are intentional. You choose to engage with a short form narrative. You fall in love with it. You want to talk to your three best friends about it. You want to see what a 100 thousand of the funniest fans on the internet are also saying about it. I think there's a radically different mental model than the unintentional internet that kind of occupies too much time today. I think we can learn things about what makes this. For me, it's not about the addiction. It's about like the ways you can meet new people you didn't exist know existed in the world and merge that with the intentional like mediums that I grew up loving. I think that's like the interesting magic. — But do you plan to optimize for engagement and time spend like that like this is a business you and if you're doing Tik Tok economics you need more people. You need more eyes. You need to pull those levers in order to get as you say like we all want premium stuff. We're willing to sell our data and our eyes and our time just to like sit through some ads sometime so we can get our stories for free because we are freaking addicts, right? Like — yeah, — it's a fine line to walk. It's a tough one. I don't envy the task you've set out for yourself. — Yeah. I mean it's a serious responsibility. I think the first thing we have to prove is like do people want to watch and talk about these things this way and I have this like deep belief and conviction that this is a much better way to go watch TV as well as be social on the internet. Rebecca, I think like the best way I know how to answer your question is like the thing I optimize for is intentionality and like intentionality is a principle. The business if we can build a place of intentionality. One of my mentors in the industry once explained to me like you want to actually create real value for a user for a person for an audience member and then the score ends up taking care of itself in the sense that like if you built something that people love you can go find interesting ways to go create a sustainable business around it. I don't want to exploit people's attention. I want to create a place of intentionality on the internet. — Yeah. I wonder if it could be helpful to think about where does Watch Club fall on a continuum of real short to Quibby and why Quibby went wrong? And like I think especially in tech, I think so many people would hear about these short form video dramas and be like, "Was Quibby too early? What was different? " And for those who don't remember, Quibby was a short form mobile native video platform which shut down in 2020. It was founded by Jeffrey Katzenberg and it raised nearly $2 billion from a bunch of backers like Alibaba, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Disney, Sony, Viacom. Like they had like really big talent. Like they had a show with Jordan Fischer and Darren Chris who are two of the biggest stars on Broadway right now. And I found out about this recently because I was looking up like Darren Chris whatever. And I was like they had that on Quivy? That's crazy. But they had like really quality talent but people just weren't interested in it. And I wonder like what went wrong there? And does the spectre of Quibby hang over watch club as a company based in the US when you're pitching this to investors or — has the rise of like Real Short and Drama Box and those apps kind of eclipsed the Quibby concerns? — This is a really good question. I'll frame it in two ways. Number one, despite the fast growth of micro drama industry, we are still in the suppose the MySpace era of social media, but in this case micro dramas, and like the perfect execution, the like the Facebook adaptation evolution has not yet been born. Maybe it's being built in this little garage here in central LA. So, I still think we're in the early days of what this industry will look like when it achieves ubiquity, which is what I do believe. The second part of this Amanda to get to Quiddby is from a place of like deep respect and admiration for creative and smart people

### Segment 6 (25:00 - 30:00) [25:00]

who attempted this beforehand. I don't know that I would have had the conviction to start my company if Quibby hadn't failed daringly, boldly, spectacularly. But the same thing is true of YouTube Red, Snapchat originals, Verizon go 90 vessel before that. There was um there was one in Paris called uh Black Pills. So many of the world's smartest technology and media entrepreneurs have worked on this problem over the last 15 years and the micro drama industry has now cracked open a window of opportunity which is like my big blessing to convince investors that micro dramas matter. Why did Quibby fail? I would say like from a place of respect great ideas imperfect execution great ideas imperfect timing is enough to dam. And so if I were to boil it down, I think Quibby misexecuted in three dimensions. Content, product, and a business model. On the content side, they convinced many of the biggest A-list directors, writers, producers, actors to star in their shows. But their cost per minute was close to $100,000 per minute for their marquee shows. That's the same budget as what Netflix uh produces at for a tiny thing that's like three and a half inches in your hand. I don't think budgets of that level can be sustained on mobile, at least in the early days of this industry. The second thing I'll say is they basically produced 30 minute hourlength TV shows and then cut them into three minute, five minute bits and dropped one episode per day. If you think about watching your favorite movie, let's say Lord of the Rings for me in three minutes, that's a terrible annoying way to watch a TV show or movie. And so what the micro dramas have done is a much more better execution from budget standpoint and from a like a creative pace velocity storytelling standpoint. On the product side, I think like the biggest product innovation at Quibby was this idea that you could watch a TV show in both vertical orientation and horizontal. They called it turnstyle. Um and you know it would be nice if I could watch Stranger Things in vertical, but I don't it's not solving a burning problem in my pocket. And so when it comes to building a great product, I think the most important thing if you're building a streaming product on your phone is you have to go back to first principles. Why does Amanda why does Rebecca carry a smartphone in her pocket every waking moment of the day? It's not because she wants to stream short form video. It's stay in touch with the five to 10 most important people in her life. The phone is fundamentally first and foremost a social communications device. And so my thesis to you is the right execution of building a micro drama product is to go build a social community. Come for the show. Stick around to talk to your five best friends. the other fans who love this thing to pieces. I think they'll be build a much more robust product experience. Finally, on the business, we've already touched on this a little bit, Rebecca. Like my observation here is I think Quibby used to charge something like between5 and $10 a month to go watch their shows. I think a subscription business can work on your TV. I think some people will be willing to pay for it on their smartphone, but I think a majority of Americans are used to free video on YouTube, Tik Tok, Instagram, Reels and won't be that interested in paying for even a premium streaming product. So, you have to think about a different business model there. And that's why I describe our business as like a social network of intentionality. — So, a couple of rapid questions. Um, what is the defense? Like, are you a tech company or a studio? Where's the defensibility? Is it your IP? Is it your tech or both? Like, what if Netflix is like, "All right, we're doing this now. " Like, or is that your exit strategy? Those are a few questions. Please feel free to answer them in whatever order you see fit. — Um, I think it's I mean, the lovely thing about building this business, I think there are two kinds of modes. Number one is like on the technology side, building a social network is one of the more, you know, like when you have a beloved community, they'll show up. And so that's an important part of it. And so I see that as an important part of it. The second part of it is when you create stories or IP that people love, they might fall in love with it their entire life the way that I loved Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings rivalry. Uh and so I think it's like two different vector dimensions of modes can be built in a business like this. If Netflix wants to go do this, like I would be so excited because then like they won't become blockbuster 10 years from now. I think the average American is going to spend less time watching her TV 10 years in the future than she does today. And so I would be so excited to hear Ted Sarando say like we're making like a big push into mobile first storytelling. I cannot wait to compete with them. That'll be so much fun. At the same time, I also like I don't know if I think that the TV is going to become more obsolete because then you see things like people are watching more YouTube on their TV than they used to. And I find that very interesting because — I don't really watch YouTube on my TV, but then over time like

### Segment 7 (30:00 - 34:00) [30:00]

— then I don't know like I thought video podcasts were stupid and I was like who would watch like why is Netflix investing in having video podcasts on Netflix and then I find myself watching like the Percy Jackson Disney Plus show and then after the episode then a video podcast comes up and all of a sudden I'm like why am I watching a video podcast on Disney Plus? Right. Percy Jackson writing this down. — Oh, the the Percy Jackson Disney show is actually very good. — All right. The movies are very bad. — Amanda, hit me with your Disney Plus login. All right. Like we talk about this offline. Um, look guys, we're about to run out of time. Anything else anyone want to say before I sign us off and do the thing? — I think you guys have asked me the right questions. I will just say like I deeply profoundly love great stories and I think that the movie and film and TV industry has been hurting badly for the better part of three years. And I think what I see in the micro drama category, this industry is the opportunity to create stories that are as wonderful and as magical as the best book or TV show you've ever watched, but in the form and in the medium that most people carry in their pockets every week to the day. I think we can make something as magical as Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter was when I was a kid. and put it on your phone. And I think that's like the real opportunity. It's not billionaire werewolf soap operas. It is something as magical as Percy Jackson or Heated Rivalry or Stranger Things. That's what I think the real opportunity is. — I think that for me, my overall thought on this is like Rebecca and I obviously are writers and we care about actual writers writing things. And one of the things that worries me about like real short drama box etc is that the werewolf billionaire mother-in-law whatever that we've been throwing around is such a formulaic concept that I don't think AI can write TV shows but I werewolf billionaire romance whatever and I don't want to see that happen. I want to see creative people be able to tell stories in a way that is surprising and not formulaic enough that it keeps people engaged because our favorite shows are not predictable in the way that AI is only going to keep regurgitating like girl with glasses falls down without glasses she is pretty. Yay. It is at least a little bit of a good sign for the industry to me to see that people are caring about actual human-made stories that aren't just optimizing for we can write this werewolf script really quickly and it'll sell. — Yeah. — Um, definitely. — We talked about this last time, Amanda. To my knowledge, Watch Club is one of very few micro dramas to work directly with the WGA on a provisionary basis. Uh, and SAG. As a former college student who's obsessed with Salman Rushy, as someone who spent nine years obsessing over Julie Adams like TV shows, I think there's something magical and soulful about great creative storytelling that AI is not soon to replace. I think AI is an important tool that every creator should learn to use to help her or him like get more creative, become better at their craft. I don't believe there's like a wholesale replacement coming anytime in the near future, which is why we work with like the world's smartest crafts people and artisans and storytelling. — Amazing. Hey, this was so much fun. I feel like we could talk for a full hour uh or probably longer to be honest. There's so much more that I want to pick your brain about. So, um, yeah. Where can our listeners connect with you and find your work online, Henry? — Yeah, Rebecca, our app is called Watch Club. It is on iOS. You can watch our new show, Return Offer. It's a high stress teen drama about uh, college students working in the AI industry. This is very relevant to what we're discussing. So, find Watch and then you can find me on LinkedIn. Just type in Henry Sun, SG. Send me an email. We are hiring writers right now uh, to write grounded teen coming of age stories. So, reach out if you want to write like an iconic teen drama. — Oh my god. Amazing. Amanda, where can our listeners find you? — I'm mostly on Blue Sky these days at amanda. omg. ol, a URL that I do in fact have. And obviously, you can find my writing on TechCrunch. I always tell people that if you see a TechCrunch headline that feels a little bit weird, there's like a 70% chance it was me. — Yes. — So, go there. — Yes. Well, thank you both for joining us on the show. To our listeners, you can find me on Blue Sky, on X, on LinkedIn. And you can find equity at equity pod. Talk to you next time.