# Your Brain On Science Mushroom Mania Panel ## Метаданные - **Канал:** Your Brain on Science - **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU ## Содержание ### [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU) Segment 1 (00:00 - 05:00) and thank you again for being here if you like what we're doing um make a donation we'd appreciate it thanks guys so hello everybody um like Lauren said my name is Elena can everybody hear me am I projecting yeah okay um I know so like we said I am a co-founder co-host of podcast your brain on science where we talk all things psychedelic science policy and all things happening in that field um I'm also a PhD candidate at VCU and I'm studying psilocybin for a myriad of things my main focus is addiction and it's psilocybin mainly opioid opioid yeah so let's also introduce our other panelists so Mario if you want to introduce yourself first sure hello everyone I come from Spain where I eat my peace playing with the structure of that Foundation of psylocity that then I graduated to work with Ayahuasca we after which I moved into research lab on both in I studied the neuro pharmacology of psychedelics as a whole and that's in a nutshell what I do I explore the really basic foundations of what this rocks can do in models that allow us to take up they take out the subjective components sometimes as humans bring into the future so hi everyone my name is Harrison Elder I'm also practically a PhD candidate I'll be finishing my PhD up here in a week or so but I'm a little bit more of a generalist than these two I've spent some time in political research working with cannabinoids I've worked with psychedelics in the laboratory and then recently have been focusing on things like the amphetamines and amphetamine opioid co-use that's unfortunately really escalating right now um but I've like I said I've spent time kind of being a bit of a scientific generalist working between human models and animal models and have spent a significant amount of time and published on psychedelic science relating to both psychedelic phenylethylamines like mescaline and things like the tryptophanes including psilocybin and DMT so I'll just be kind of here giving them a little bit of scientific backup and adding my two cents as well yeah so they're the clinical people I'm not clinical so we'll get a little bit of everything which is um okay so I guess the first thing I I'm just gonna ask like maybe two questions to them and then we're just gonna open the floor up to like Whoever has questions because I feel like that's more informative anyways um so the first question I have for both of you and myself I can answer too um is that I know so the earlier panel was focused on like the state of endthenogenic plants and fungi in like a broader sense can both of you just maybe briefly discuss like where you think the research is at in terms of psilocybin and maybe some naturally other naturally occurring psychedelics like DMT or Ayahuasca whoever wants to go first sure I mean I can get my two cents on this first um I obviously if you follow the issue at all um you might have seen a lot of work coming out of places like Johns Hopkins some places like um UCSF uh and like this UC San Diego has also kind of been on it but most of the clinical work I'm sure you've seen has been Cove Johns Hopkins and this is kind of brilliant it's infancy at the moment but has really taken off over the last few years because uh interestingly what they found is that it that these um it's psychedelic experiences are very intense and obviously they've used the um I don't know what the term is but right term would be but they've used kind of this orphan drug um designation or this open door to go for people who are suffering from end of life anxiety with cancer patients people who are really in a kind of dire situations like I listen in on one of the last speakers talking about people who are in quote unquote desperate situations going for these right to try laws and so through that kind of window they've they were able to open up this entire field of psychedelic research to the clinical sphere once again take it out of animal models in the laboratory to actually giving it to people who are in dire need of psychological help um I don't know if you want to add anything on this in terms of the clinical angle but bringing these medicines back into humans has been extremely controversial ### [5:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=300s) Segment 2 (05:00 - 10:00) because as I'm sure many of you know uh these drugs are not just illegal in the sense of a schedule three or schedule two something like ketamine but they are you know in the same category as heroin when it comes to our drug laws in this country so getting them into clinical trials was very difficult so the progress that places like Johns Hopkins have made bringing them to human trials giving them to people and actually cataloging their experiences and their benefit has been really kind of groundbreaking this doesn't um a lot of the things that they're seeing there I like to think of it as kind of coming at it from two angles in the laboratory we look at things from an animal model or a cell model angle whereas people in the laboratory are giving these to human beings and cataloging their experiences or coming at it from you know kind of the top down and we're coming from the bottom up and those two Fields have not have yet to really meet so we're working on it if you read stuff online that tries to explain XYZ Behavior because of XYZ receptor binding or this that or the other end time inside of a network we're not really there yet we haven't really met the two you know bottom up and top-down approaches yet so I guess that's really what I would say yeah I think I think we're in the effect ual stage the honeymoon where you know the hopes are so built up uh Society is responding to the news coming out of from scientific field and I'm not an optimist by Nature so I can only imagine that a honeymoon lasts for as long as it lasts so I think at some point we're gonna see a reaction whether it comes from the science of sporting something that we didn't know before or you know some agents that started to pry upon things that could make news once the psychedelics become old news yet to be seen but right now we're generating a whole breath of data solid data that really justifies the stage that we're at and because the companies are moving forward um NIH is willing to put money into this even the DEA has been you know kept in on their own on their shoes in some instant is where they were trying to overstep their responsibilities so I think we're in a pretty sweet moment um I kind of only hope that this will last and whatever comes out of it you know feels good for betterment of society so I think I would add to that and like kind of building off of what both of you guys said it's there's a lot of work that's being done and I just like to recognize that like we get all these newer news articles and all this hype around like this miracle cure Soul Simon LLC or what have you and an MDMA even and I think it's just important to highlight that like all of the research is still very new with the modern technology that we have and the modern ethics that we have versus what it was in the 1950s um so I think just keeping that in mind and like questioning what you're reading is like really important because that's what we do as scientists right like we like kind of question everything we don't just take face value as the title of a paper that comes out um so I think that's super and asking better questions or more questions kind of helps what uh Harrison was talking about in that meeting in the middle of like because it's a matter of the people doing the research but it's also a matter of the people in the public who um help like inform like what they want as like treatment or actually going through these mental health issues and just can help inform the research that's going on yeah I mean to piggyback off that is something that I've kind of heard talked about a lot today um we're all kind of the face of this Resurgence right everyone in the public and in the scientific sphere is a part of this presents and scientific research and general interest and so the way that we represent ourselves and um kind of promote this movement is definitely a big part of how legitimate it becomes and how much research gets done um so I think that that's just something that I would definitely add to that saying that we get funding we get interest we get to go to conferences and present our research when people are legitimately interested in these things and less so when claims are maybe a little outlandish or dish or weren't doing their doing now so yeah it's great that we have so many people who are willing to promote this and it's awesome that we have all like all these people here that are faced with this movement and moving it Forward interest since like at lxs medicines and in general as decriminalizing nature but just kind of keep that in mind like you're the evangelicals of the entire movement so what you say does have weight what you do um so I guess one of the like major questions that I always get in like when I'm just talking to people about what I do is if I think that the like ### [10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=600s) Segment 3 (10:00 - 15:00) subjective hallucinations or the mysticalness of the psychedelics are like a part of what would be essentially therapeutic so I was just curious to know your guys's thoughts on that personally I'm in the middle I think that for some people they may benefit from a full-blown you know spiritual experience from um things like psilocybin um tea you know what have you but I think also obviously as being a basic pharmacologist and like brain researcher that there is an aspect in the brain that kind of helps that move along I guess in a way to say so just curious what your guys's thoughts are you one way or the other are you like kind of in the middle what's the evidence um I think I shared your position Elena in that greatness of like just lying in the middle and it's not just how about not being non-committed opinionated guy myself but I do think that transformative experience can a lot to certain people and I think we're gonna get to see a path where we can spot the kind of populations that respond more positively to that transformative experience that probably comes in touch with a certain personality pattern not everyone is a spiritual and a lot of people don't need any spirituality in their lives and they're absolutely fine not having that for other people that means a lot so I think in that regard building those narratives I mean a lot to some people maybe not so much to others at the same time um I I work actively in direct development and Discovery so I think the other thing that psychedelics bring us is this new playground we haven't really explored all the way yet and this is not to try to come up with uh you know to outdo Silo side you know I do EMT or LSD you know we can use those scaffolds a situation to go to London elsewhere and give an example of what I'm saying there's this company it's called brightman's bio they took the scaffold of psylo saving and they came up with a an anti-leptic drug for people for kids that experience rabbit syndrome so this is to say that I don't think the benefit is only on the you know subjective effects there's a lot of a lot more things that we can Harvest out of these molecules that right now we're allowed to play with and I think that's the cool part of drug development as well is that you know there are certain populations of people that should not have this full-blown hallucinations psychedelic experience and like people who have like psychosis or like schizophrenia like um disorders so I think by playing with those molecules and maybe developing medications that could still be helpful for some people without having to go through this full-blown experience also does have a little bit of value I mean that's why I'm stepping out of my box maybe a little bit as a scientist I think part of my so there's been a really big push in the drug development and pharmaceutical spheres to take these psychedelic molecules and tweak them change them otherwise make them proprietary and useful for Western modern medicine right um and that's kind of where the argument has started to come up around are the hallucinations necessary right these drug companies are interested in medicine in general is interested in whether or not we can retain the benefits of a psychedelic experience on things like depression addiction anxiety Etc without having to make you completely incapacitated and hallucinating and go through the whole experience that is quote unquote I mean in medical terms somewhat dangerous to put you in that vulnerable to State and so they're really interested in can we Harvest these benefits without making you go through the hallucination process right I personally think that that that really strips down and kind of changes the entire um benefit structure of a psychedelic I mean the whole point is that it doesn't fit into the way that we've been looking at medicines for these drugs or through for these uh conditions excuse me if you try to take a psychedelic molecule and take this you know hallucinations and spiritual nature out of it and try to sell it back to somebody as a once daily medication you essentially ruin the entire nature of what that was giving someone right and so that's uh that's why I mostly fall on the side of you can't take away the subjective hallucinogenic properties of the drug and still retain the benefits but that's me stepping definitely much outside of my scientific expertise and giving my own personal beliefs on the subject leads me so this is the last question I'll ask and then I'll open it up to everybody else um so that kind of brought me to say like do you think that something like psilocybin fits into this medicalized model as a whole or do you think that it needs to be something different like ### [15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=900s) Segment 4 (15:00 - 20:00) like a decram like they talked about a little bit before us or like um like other routes like is there like a middle thing that like we can do does it just need to be completely legalized like you and then I truly don't know what the right answer is so I'm just I think it kind of goes back to what I tried to say opening up with um for all the face of the movement you all know people who have probably used these substances to great benefit and maybe some people who have used them to not so great the benefit potentially getting themselves into dangerous or difficult situations so I think that it kind of calls somewhere in between I don't think that access to something like this should be limited on any basis I mean are talking about decriminalized nature it's part of nature it's all kind of our right to try something like that on our own but in the same breath I would also say that in the current environment in America these people will want to capitalize on that and push it to people and it will become maybe a little bit perverted from what you're thinking and like um if access was just generally totally open I think there's a obviously a place for the medical benefit but also a place for us to not get in trouble for having them I guess that would be fun yeah I I think you know I come from the scientific side I do believe the MLB palestination is not only something to contemplate but something necessary I think it's the one way we have to put some cigars that really kind of protect people from harm and on that front you know I don't attribute any particularly Special Value to things coming from nature from I see pharmacology is purely materialistic and biological although they can trigger the most amazing experience known to the human mind but at the same time if I think about the larger population I do think we need to have some safeguards in place in either the community is able to afford those themselves or they we need to abide by the rule at three agencies and I feel strongly about this especially you know today a couple of these a couple of days back I pick up the fight there's this so-called Church of Solomon toxic these guys that tried to push for the um this Sacrament as they call it where they were feeding fat dogs EMT into psilocybin mushrooms doesn't sound too bad but they were claiming it was going on there is that the Muslim was transforming the supply methoxy DMT into something else that they call silom and toxins well methoxin if that molecule turns out to be true and be there it's a neurotoxin and we know that from animal work that all goes all the way back to so you know the path to hell is paved with good intentions I do think we need to save the safeguards in place to kind of curve all these things that's not like fantastic ideas and our well-intentioned but at the end of the day can harm people this one's a really good point to me because there are a lot of people who will take advantage of other people right that's just like kind of Being Human and some people suck to put it blatantly like um so I think that like that's kind of where the medical model it comes in is it can like put it things in place that can protect people from people who aren't certified in giving therapy right that are giving people drugs and just letting them like giving people psilocybin or whatever and just kind of letting them run out the trip that could be potentially opening wounds of trauma that person that's guiding them is not well equipped to deal with I think that's a really big thing that um kind of be helped a little bit by like accreditation of psychedelic assisted therapy and what have you so um I think that's a really good point to make about Pro for medicalization and then you made a good point about the conference is it too many laws too many safeguards or something that's you know I think it's just trying to fit psychedelic therapy or psychedelics something spiritual and Transcendent into this like westernization without fixing every other thing I mean I think that just to piggyback off of what you guys were saying you hear a lot probably that um these natural Med like something like DMT or psilocybin is one of the safest drugs that you could consume and I think when people talk about that they talk a lot about they talk specifically about it's something like it's ld50 or the fact that you probably will never a lethal dose right what the typical lethal dose of the drug might be right and I see this a lot in Lay articles that I read or in when I talk to people um who are arguing for greater access to something like psilocybin uh they talk people talk a lot about how safe it is or I you heard this a lot I in the beginning of the Cannabis movement with how safe of a drug it is right how much you could consume without hurting yourself um in comparison to something we can help you win and while that's ### [20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=1200s) Segment 5 (20:00 - 25:00) technically true of the toxicity of like some the actual physical harm that you could cause Yourself by consuming some of these psychedelic drugs is quite low it's very difficult to hurt yourself physically with these drugs um that doesn't mean it's that doesn't mean that they're harmless right it doesn't mean that you can't get yourself into some serious trouble eating too much uh too many mushrooms or having too much psychedelics on board and so I think that keeping that in mind when we're talking about the dangers involved is important um and I get I feel like I'm being a bit of a downer on this but I think it's I really I think it's important to know that to know the difference between what is physically dangerous and what is actually in reality could be dangerous for the person um but I've now gotten a soft topic so sorry about that any other comments for open to questions yeah I think there's a thirst for this these experiences that I don't think it worries me but I could see how some people can Prey Upon that right I don't I sell the other day um a post on LinkedIn this guy oh I heard about this psychedelic fish and people were just like talking along oh I will try it anytime uh where do they sell it it's actually something that I looked into and it looks like something you really don't want to be out there it's just because it creates an alternate State of Consciousness doesn't mean it's something that you should be craving and this is some kind of civil Terror something Provo that is provoked by the algae that they feed that the fish feeds upon and yeah you certainly would get in a dreamy like stay we don't know the exact nuances of it but won that it so these stairs for these experiences that people tend to show worries me when it comes to you know people that might actually have bad intentions I do think there might be room for you know a recreational or you know self spiritual routes towards using psychedelics outside of medicalized routes but we I think we need to be very aware of uh you know the dangers that you know integrating this in like a capitalistic Society for profit couldn't tell like having some harm reduction available like harm reduction policies are actually enforced in and watched by everyone involved in it we'll switch videos a little bit and talk about the actual bits here um well I was gonna say we could do that or we could if you guys have questions for us I don't know how much time we specifically have so I figured like we're here to be a resource for the public so like if anyone has any questions we will answer them I'll start off thank you guys for doing this by the way I want to I guess make a quick comparison to kind of the Cannabis side of things where we recently found out there's a lot of different cannabinoids out there there's a whole spectrum they impact us differently everyone knows Delta 9 and THC is there a similar type of nuance I guess to the to this little sidebon side or really to the you know kind of psychoactive aspects of a spectrum of different molecules that might accidentally that might not necessarily just be psilocybin or DMT Etc or if it augments kind of the psychoactic psychoactive effect that you feel I think it's on our case basis for is for your source of DMT so I go to everybody it is something you have your source of maoa Inhibitors that render the DNC active and on that second side you have a wider rate of molecules alcohol as we call it that continues obviously those can have their own nuances as to you know what the Ultimate Experience it's like uh there's a lot of talk about that around cytocybin you know the whole Entourage effects I think there's the key distinction here and I'm taking it all back to the chemistry up such kind of derogatory but cannabinoids are a lump sum of fat versus the alkaloids inside the society which are like Prime um Amino phenophile or tryptophan compounds why am I saying this the chemical structure determines what the path is going to be and I have a hard time thinking that the contents on the side of saving mushrooms that are North Side locally nor silosin can really make it to the brain and contribute to the whole experience it's more of a hypothesis I don't think it's formally tested but if I had to take a guess I think the interest effects is a lot more of a role in the cannabinoid side than it does for us so actually I can I heard a little bit of a talk the last talk that was in here talking about the difference between peyote and San Pedro I actually think that this question applies a lot more to the differences between those different cactuses than potentially psilocybin mushrooms there's a lot fewer structures ### [25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=1500s) Segment 6 (25:00 - 30:00) and different chemicals that are in um psilocybin mushrooms that in my opinion has Mario just said really can contribute to that psychedelic State you get whereas with the different cacti there are a plethora of different um phenethylamine type compounds that are quite similar and do have activity that can either make it I don't know if I would say more spiritual or not but more unpleasant or not so peyote is well known because it is a very pure and high potency source of masculine whereas these other cacti that are not illegal San Pedro Peruvian Torch things like that they have their own complement of these very similar molecules that can make them a little bit make them more prone to causing nausea more prone to being jittery because they have this these other higher contents of Tire mean and other similar feneth only type compounds so I think it comes a little bit more into play there but if you're at and if you're asking about just the um the natural sources of these compounds then that's what I would say if you're asking about similar compounds that have been tweaked to cause similar but slightly different effects I'd say go look up research chemicals and designer drugs um because that's really where that field has gone in a whole other direction uh between U. S molecules any of it I want to add something to that I as Cyrus wasn't I think it's very interesting and it also comes from recent events psychedelics are so humbling in so many ways and one of the handling experiences that come after is how much they can mislead you into believing into what's going on so there's a study that in which people were given others or psilocybin they couldn't tell and they were asked do you think you got this year you got the side of seven they couldn't tell one from the other unless they knew what they were given and the whole settlement auction that I was talking about earlier these people received something that they were told it's completely different from mushrooms and they had an experience that was completely different from mushrooms at the end of the day it was mushrooms so this also speaks to sometimes when people try to come up with oh yeah you know this variety of convinces is better than this one in terms of the interaction figma a lot of it my videos are will to believe that there's a difference there rather than I don't know anybody got a question maybe it was commented on before I walked in but I'm curious see any differences between a macro versus a micro dose is there a benefit to taking small amounts regularly versus taking a large amount for you know one time every few months um so I would say that based on current studies like scientific evidence a lot of the studies going on with psilocybin or um more whistle assignment than LLC I would say but a lot of them are focusing on moderate doses like a normal like maybe a little bit less than like a full-on record s but not a microphone right um but so most of them are focusing on like something that would be considered moderate and those studies are the ones that we see out of like Johns Hopkins who are giving a psilocybin um once or twice in combination with a psychedelic therapy to do smoking substation alcohol studies um the end of life studies so those are a larger dose or moderate dose one or two times and it's producing significant effects in several studies that have also been replicated with depression and treatment resistant depression in at Johns Hopkins and also in Imperial College London and at UC San Diego I believe so those are all with the evidence that is currently available with psilocybin at least is speaking more towards a larger or moderate dose once or twice producing sustained six months effects do you think that's applicable from a pharmacological standpoint uh yeah I would say that make sense um because the whole idea of like the hypothesis behind this right is that you're giving this dose it's producing this experience and maybe some pharmacological effects in the brain through neurons and receptors that are causing this increase in like plasticity within your brain new connections that you wouldn't normally have and that's what's producing these potential a combination of both or one or the other that's what we're currently researching right is producing this therapeutic ### [30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=1800s) Segment 7 (30:00 - 35:00) effect so I would say based on like what we've seen in lab models and then what we're seeing also in people is pretty like cohesive in terms of micro dosing a lot of the literature and the evidence with microdosing right now um either their doses aren't actually micro Doses and they're still psychologically active so you're not really you know like you're just High you know right so um which whatever that's fine but um that's not really getting at like the micro dose non-active kind of um question um or a lot of the studies are currently in people who already regularly microdose so like I literally saw a title of a paper that says um like micro dosing shown to increase productivity and creativity in microdosers so it's like well yeah that would make sense right um so I would say for both sides of it I think more research is obviously needed but I think right now the evidence is showing that this moderate I know once or twice dosing and these long-term effects is more consistent than the literature with the micro dosing it's my trying to keep it short yeah I mean so I would say a lot of the work that I did when I was back doing clinical research was on the placebo response actually um in people who were being treated for chronic pain okay so I we did a lot of work with um Placebo response in clinical trials and one of the major things that I gleaned from my time there was that the more active the placebo right the more that you can feel the placebo working inside you um the more that you're prone to saying that it's that active drug that's working right and so the way that I've started to see at least in the research what I've seen is that these papers that come out on micro dosing at least the well-controlled ones either find no benefit or a small benefit in terms of people's present mood and whether and how much they say it's helping them right not on any objective measures where they're doing some sort of task or objectively their performance is being measured those typically aren't Changed by micro dosing but the subjective measures that they ask people about how is your mood how productive do you feel things like that are altered because people feel slightly different when they might prevent us right and so I think that from a cynical point of view you could say it's not helping at all if you want to be an optimistic point of view you could say it's people harnessing the placebo response there's nothing wrong with the placebo effect honestly it's one of it's an amazing thing that the human body can do is reduce your pain make you happier with the total Hui treatment but if to believe you're doing something right exactly but if you can find a way to harness that placebo effect to your benefit more power to you I guess but I think a lot of these studies at least that I've seen come out about microdosing have been on the side of objective benefits subjective benefits potential Visa yeah I think of that right if you go to the scientific literature the cans you have to get mini key go for the double blind or exclusive double blind as you can solve this it was fake but just because the literature is saying that doesn't mean yeah you can you cannot explore something that feels good to you when you know if I were to get creative as to other paths foreign capacity or in a situation where you need that would I recommend that to uh um emergency room nurse no uh firefighter no but if you know a graphic designer and you want to introduce that kind of noise in this system that might help you know take outside of the box by obvious so long you know what you're doing and what you got in your hands percentage capitalism but I'm wondering from your perspective of your situation this year uh where are you seeing the funding going and where do you see it coming very much pharmacology or Street or are there outside capital interests investing in the research ### [35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=2100s) Segment 8 (35:00 - 40:00) so I'll just say car stuff the US government itself provides very little funding for psychedelic research there's like maybe four or five Labs including like one that I'm in that actually have money from the like National Institutes of Health to do psychedelic research so a lot of the funding is coming from outside sources you yeah I've worked without first year of virtual Capital funds that you know jump into this space a lot of them are just like trying to go for the next big thing after they cannabinoid you know they already need their make their money and they're kind of you know in space they were going for the next weekend um so yeah I think in terms of if we were to put it in a scale definitely a little more private public money into this but at the same at the end of the day they're all gonna have to face the same kind of challenges right they're gonna have to get before the FDA they're going to demonstrate this is a possible effect or if or it's not if it's a positive effect sorry but it probably won't get to get through and at this I just throw in all the safeguards that would I mean I would just yeah these two are the ones that honestly have worked more with the funding issue for psychedelics specifically I've gotten to do my psychedelic work on the side without groveling for funding for it uh specifically but um at least from what I've seen a lot of the funding that's coming into the Psychedelic space now at least the funding that's um pushing forward non-hallucinogenic analogs and things of that nature tends to be from Pride firms or institutional money from um I mean massive universities have their own funds that they can so it's not so much from the NIH or night unless you can like Elena has recently yeah um should you get a little shout out for that because she's convinced the federal government to give her some funds to do suicide and research but that's rare it's tough to do I think it's also very much where you're headed for instance if you're trying to cure depression private money is going to come your way in like drugs if you're going for a rare disease orphan disease then you're probably gonna have to really relay on the federal agencies that are able to put money four conditions are not that profitable but yeah there are avenues for that question over here yeah as a clinician I'm not hearing much about the clinical trials which is preparation so yeah that's really good for you did you before I start talking I just wanted to Echo for if you guys didn't hear um what he said um is that the when we talk about these clinical trials it's not only just the drug right it's usually in combination with a therapy and it's also has a whole protocol and a whole process behind it where you have meetings with your therapists or the doctors that are going to be in the room you have this preparation this discussion with them about what you're going into the possibilities of the outcomes and sometimes that Annette Hopkins a recent paper was published with their smoking Association study that they have a treatment manual that goes through these kind of different um like levels of prompts of like things to consider while you're in this great um to help with you know quitting smoking and so that's the whole thing that goes into it and then you have visits with this therapist multiple times and then you have follow-up or integration which unfortunately like you mentioned usually only is about maybe one to three follow-ups right after the trials and then may depending on the trial continue on at a three month a six month or a year follow-up so I think it is important to know that one of the bigger critiques I guess of the clinical research is that there's a lack of integration because this integration of this experience right you might feel great right after you take psilocybin like for a few days or up to a week or even up to a month but you might you know have it might not be linear like an exponential in your mood you might you know feel really good for a week and then be like oh well I feel you know like I'm questioning things from my experience or what have you and sometimes there's not that support in place so I think that's a place that the field could really go into ### [40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=2400s) Segment 9 (40:00 - 45:00) more is like different aspects of the integration that's also been an issue with their drug approval process actually so one of the few panels that I've actually scientific panels I've sat through it at conferences um one of the first ones that was really Salient to me was a panel that they had a bunch of FDA scientists on uh talking about why what they're going to need to see to improve these drugs right and one of their big sticking points was okay well there's huge changes in these trials but you've given people super nice niche tailored therapy for six months how do we you know where are the controls in place how do we know that these people didn't just get super nice niche tailored therapy and they feel better which is what therapy often does for people um and it was sometimes well sometimes right um and so that was it was really interesting debate for me to listen to um and I guess what ended up shaking out of that whole debate with these FDA scientists was that the drug itself they needed to show that it was acting as a true Catalyst and that these people weren't finally getting the attention from mental health professionals that they've done for a long time and that was really the big change that was happening um and so believe me I'm on I'm sitting here so I believe that there is uh that the catalyst is truly a big part of it but it also kind of brings me all the way back to what we were talking about originally is that the Hallucination is it that subjective experience that is helping people or is it something a drug personally what I would say is that if you're getting you know effects 12 months out from this drug and therapy that it's acting as a catalyst for you to maybe you have to work with other people a little bit better at work make a behavioral change that's not so much pharmacologically driven but that cold called but it might have been initially right but that debate is really going on whether you know how much of a role that therapy plays and as far as I've heard and as I've read the therapy is still very much a big part of psychedelic treatment at the moment right at least the whole package is ready which is which makes it difficult to access for people who need it it's expensive it's time consuming um and I think that was something that Mario mentioned earlier treatment access it's not easy right really recently yeah on the attention side of things yeah I mean psychology is gonna be tested right like Silo Simon is taking the spotlight but at the end of the day I guess the most advanced fire that I'm just psychic psychedelic and therapy so the Psychedelic is assisting therapy which we know works for better you know sometimes better work and like president was saying you know BDA doesn't care much about feelings it's gonna be if you if you're making the case that is therapy then you have a two by two Matrix but you need to tell me that salocybin alone therapy alone is better than either of them separate and work better together with obviously increases the number of experience that you need to run and then it's important so yeah therapy is definitely an issue right exactly well that's the other issue right so it's a profitable that they can fit in a model and so if anyone's interested in that topic more um check out the podcast and doing the Shameless plug um we have a couple episodes with John Hopkins researchers who are doing that um Johnson but um so we have um an episode actually on Psychotherapy and in that aspect of the therapy and the psilocybin as a whole um with Natalie and kukasian and Dr Natalie Lucasian so check that out if you're interested in kind of learning more about um do we have any other questions but as far as the app for what I've tried and you know with uh the strand of uh owner of your Enigma to me that one put in it's another higher it's another level with that one but you can say anything to the gram or so that to me it was more like taking maybe an eighth or something like that you know one day you can attention thanks but uh you know like with like micro dosing I myself put my own self to a six-month therapy on that my own personal you know done no doctors so I would say like a point five is where I stay in as far as not ### [45:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=2700s) Segment 10 (45:00 - 50:00) tripping or anything and it brings me into more of an uplifting move you know I don't know how intensive I think things of that nature but I've just done it in my own environment and to me I feel like it it's healthy even now you know that's where I'm at but still I think that's you know on a three times a week type thing funny videos and to me I feel like it's still going good from um I'm also a Navy Fed as well I've been in the military for 40 years I was on a great job the Enterprise which was like kind of it's in the bottom of the tone so for me to come out of that and still be able to keep a smile on my face from the things I've seen and had to do there you know I think it's healthy that's all I can really say man I think it's working for me I don't know about everyone else I got into gardening and kind of things but which to me is kind of weird but I like it a lot yeah I think they're like when it comes to like people's stories and like their experiences I think that like no one can discount your experience right that's your individual experience right um and I think we're kind of just bringing that like scientific like evidence part but like I'm not gonna sit here and be like no that's not true that didn't work for you science says it didn't but I think the issue with like a lot of people in the space is that they'll go and say like well this micro dosing regimen or this Mac whatever regimen it is works for me so I'm going to teach you how to do it and make money off of you even though it might not work for you or you might have issues with other cardiac conditions things that people in general people don't think about and so I think that's kind of where the issue is with like being like all like it's like he mentioned like it's what you contribute to like the people in the movement of education and it's all about harm reductions too like it's and I think psychedelics are so individual like we need and I think it's no matter if they work or don't work in science or whatever might have you whatever happens I think that the real thing that psychedelic medicine is pointing to is individualized medicine like we need individualized mental health treatments for people because everyone is not the same and so I think that is kind of what kind of speaks to sorry the same image something that has a placebo effect or is acting directly sibo effect doesn't mean it has no effects at all right um that's not um you know just to clarify that's not what a placebo really is and uh you can have an active comparator in a trial something that is actively working but maybe not the way that you're trying to test I guess my point being um a placebo doesn't mean it's not doing it right it just means that it might not be making objective changes in the way that you might think but if you're again if you can harness that subjective state you know in a good way rather than taking a pill every day that's yeah and thinking that that's how big I think a lot of the reason that it works for people like me for yourself honestly is that just the act the intentional Act of doing that three times a week is putting yourself into a headspace where you're like I want to work on my life and how I'm you know viewing my life and the things that I'm doing it's an intentional repeated act that might make you feel a little different and that kind of catalyzes your change whether or not that's working through new neuron growth in your brain or not it's making change for you because you're intentionally doing that you see what I'm saying yeah no I mean coping mechanism through a fake let's see what fake or placebos those are different kinds at the end of the day it's a wristbiana feed right equation and if you're not doing yourself any harm and you think you benefit from it who cares about what the latest papers says that's something that can also apply to me beat those or moderate those right we could argue like yeah but all those insides you go and false you know like there's there wasn't no you know you emerging with the Earth we know for a fact you didn't merge with anything and yet if you benefit from it in a way that helps you go about your day who cares if it was a false narrative or Yeah well yeah that's the other thing about like use of Simon or like other like plant medicine is that these have been being used forever right like we're not the like the medical model and the therapy model and we're not the first people to figure this out it's been figured out so if it's been working for however many years right like I'm not gonna go you know call up some indigenous tribes and be like you're a liar like you know no way um so I think it's just important to recognize that like the way that we are studying things isn't the only way that things have to go um and that's like another issue with these clinical trials and what have you is that and just the fitting of this experience and these compounds into this model that we have right now like ### [50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=3000s) Segment 11 (50:00 - 55:00) this double-blind controlled trial might not be good to test psychedelics to like that but that's the standard so that's what we're working with right now so I think you know that's why it's important to have like these types of conversations with general public not just amongst ourselves because it brings New Perspective and new conversations curious what your perspective is on the scheduling and I'm sorry I ended the interview with the cream the same question um how do you feel about the way psilocybin has been scheduled it's schedule one right now which means it has no medicinal benefits cannabis is still at that State and I mean Nationwide we're moving forward to accepting that cannabis has some benefits to offer and the research that you guys are doing collectively is saying that psilocybin has some things to offer as well maybe it shouldn't be schedule one where do you think it should be and how do you think we should get there I think it's gonna come down from schedule man it's a very good question because obviously from the things that I've seen and the you know the safeguards that I think it needs to be in place I wouldn't see it as something that you can sell as coffee but at the same time we have melatonin which is a decent drug so that's a nutrition simple you should have safeguards as well right so you know there's it's a little bit of a heterogeneous feature at the same time I think the DEA could be doing a much better job you know really working into renew where their schemes are under which they work to really you know make sure that there are enough safeguards that you're not gonna ruin your life or something that doesn't really pose uh Hustler to the public health or to yourself but at the same time you know prevents abuse so in the form of you know taking advantage of people that might be impressive and I don't know what the scheme is that I leave that up to a policy maker but there's definitely a lot of room for change it's insane that a lot of drugs are in schedule one to be totally honest the reason that we're I'm sitting here personally and a lot of the work that I've done outside of the laboratory has been due to the fact that a lot of these drugs have been unfairly show um before we had a chance to show that it would benefit yeah um so they'll come down I we've talked I've talked to some people about npma rescheduling and things like that and that we're shooting for a schedule okay but they're so they're at her schedule three there are current efforts on your way to reschedule these because psilocybin the Helix in general don't act through dopaminergic addiction Pathways I think that there's a much greater chance that they get dropped lower than schedule two I wouldn't be I wouldn't get my hopes up if they go any lower than schedule two for the moment uh I wouldn't expect that but I'm curious to tie back to some of the previous conversation you think that would be an isolate compound or do you think it would just be a whole extract from them they're gonna they get sneaky with those things yeah if they reschedule them it's gonna be like they did with Marinol THC yeah pharmaceutical THC is schedule three I don't know if any of you all know that but it's already schedule three whereas cannabis and THC from Canada's plants and schedule One Federal which is just like a crazy eyes looking in two directions type deal that I have no idea how they hold those policy is not the researcher's business but it's like a specific pharmaceutical preparation versus a plan that anyone can access I doubt they're going to remove psilocided mushrooms psilocybin containing mushroom schedule one even if they do drop until it kind of sense they're really sneaky about that stuff the DBA has to justify its own existence we have a specific compound that we work with called DOI that's a very widespread psychedelic drug no one uses it because it's not very pleasant to trip on but yeah it's like a 30 hour trip um but they recently tried to make put that into schedule one even though we've used it for decades on an unscheduled basis and we had to fight them on that just recently like yeah so we there are still people working out yeah so Harrison wrote a petition when the ### [55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAGyYyrxqU&t=3300s) Segment 12 (55:00 - 57:00) DOI thing happened to the DEA and posted public comment we got like 50 signatures from different scientists suppose the DEA ruling and then I am a part of the science drug policy group at students for sensible drug policy um so we do like lobbying for like yeah science um so we were actually scheduled in everything um and then they ended up bullying their ruling on a technicality because they didn't somebody else that is a founder of fantasy of plant Sciences psychedelic um they called them out on their technicality and got them to pull their rules so we didn't actually have to do the hearing but they never proposed a new rule because they were like oh these people are not but nobody wins yeah well we won because we got to still keep but yeah I said like researchers and scientists do have a place of policy is because where are the people doing the research and we can inform policy makers on what's actually happening whether they want to believe it or not we can try you know so I just think that's an important like advocacy tool that we have That's Unique as experts in the field and yeah like I said whether they believe you or not I recently spoke um as the like scientific expert for the House of Representatives Bill for still Simon reducing like the sentencing for psilocybin and allowing the medical use of psilocybin in Virginia um gave this like great talk there was like three other people who talked um including like a veteran and they were just like yeah we're just gonna table it and it was like so okay everyone wasted their time and you didn't even listen to anything anyone was saying so it's a battle that's ongoing um and I think that the more that people speak up about it and become active and become like advocates for it and um are sharing like the facts and everything I think that people are going to take it the policy makers more seriously when it's evidence-based versus if it's you know if it's just people being for a lack of a better word like because that's what kind of happened yeah it's easier to and I don't think that's right but like it's easier for the government to write you off if they don't maybe it's harder for them to write you off show up prepared otherwise you'll be dismissed I said it's harder for them to write you off if you write them though Congress people uh but I think that's our time I hope everybody enjoyed this and I'll see you guys --- *Источник: https://ekstraktznaniy.ru/video/41273*