# Jim Harter of Gallup and Dan Rockwell Discuss, "Culture Shock."

## Метаданные

- **Канал:** Leadership Freak
- **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Szy1Q2Pzk
- **Дата:** 30.05.2023
- **Длительность:** 51:08
- **Просмотры:** 744
- **Источник:** https://ekstraktznaniy.ru/video/45606

## Описание

0-10 min.: Personal conversation. Life on the lake, being an introvert, etc.
15 min.: Making decisions about hybrid work.
19:45 min.: Only 5's matter.
27:05 min.: Customer-centric organizations.
32:18: Quiet quitting and flourishing as individuals and organizations.
35:40: Building trust remotely and in person.
36:25: Mood.
37:35: The power of one meaningful conversation a week.
46:33: Challenge and support.
49:05: Black and white book covers and end matter.

## Транскрипт

### min.: Only 5's matter. [19:45]

um you like to use one to five not one to seven not one to ten not one to a hundred you'd like to use one to five now I guess I should say first of all there are some areas that uh only fives matter which I loved how that was said only fives matter what are the areas where only five fives matter and then I will ask about why one to five versus others well um there are in fact most of the items we ask um fives matter a lot more than a four so you see a lot of Engagement scales where they combine fours and fives together what that ends up doing is it Waters down uh the predictability and the uh the clarity of what you're trying to get to from a behavioral standpoint um we put a chart in our book that shows the business outcomes associated with people are responding a five versus a four versus a three two or one and there's clearly big difference between a five and a four to give you an example we ask you our most foundational basic Employee Engagement item that we have I know what is expected of me at work think about the psychology uh behind giving a five to that I'm clear I know what my role is um when I go into work I know what I'm going to be working on and I know how that relates to my co-workers expectation you have a four you're backing off of that you're a little bit uncertain and it's uncertainty is not good and it's another reason why we need to have ongoing conversations in the workplace because we have to clarify priorities more continuously now because things change so quickly and um and that's a really important so that's another item that we found um I've received meaningful feedback in the last week you give a 5 to that it's one of these magical kind of items where 80 percent of people are engaged and the average across the globe is about 20 percent in the U. S 30 about 30 people over a little over 30 percent so think about that kind of a lift from one behavior and a five means a lot more than a four or three um so from a scaling standpoint and measurement standpoint our goal is to capture the most predictable information in the most efficient way possible and the five-point scale gets us there and we really encourage um the organizations we work with to try to grow that strongly agree percentage because it means so much more from a behavioral standpoint think about almost any a question you ask another one that we've we're encouraging people to add now is at work I'm treated with respect if you give anything below a five to that there's something not right in that culture something that you're hesitant about in terms of how people are treating you and that and disrespect is toxic we've seen so many examples of that over recent years but it can be so toxic to an environment and a culture and everybody should have the right to strongly agree to that and in many cases and so if managers are having these regular ongoing meaningful feedback sessions with people they're going to get ahead of those issues they're going to learn about them and they can get ahead of them before they escalate or before someone goes down a path where they might feel disrespected and um and maybe the other person didn't intend to disrespect them at all you know maybe it's very unintentional and they didn't nobody cleared the air and figured that out so um I'm going on a little bit of a tangent here but that's why we we emphasize um the percent fives in the strong agreement because it brings Clarity to an environment and we need a lot of clarity in our workplaces right now yes um so the scale of one to five versus one to seven one to ten one to a hundred it's more about uh the ease of understanding ease of use or was there is there intentionality with the one to five beyond that I should say it's both Mac maximizing the scale's ability to predict performance outcomes which we know is important to organizations whether it's customer whether it's retention rates or whether it's profitability productivity absenteeism rates it maximizes predictability in the most simple uh method possible we've looked at seven point and you know a lot of different types of scales you don't get much lift and it's more difficult to interpret the information you get back you've got to combine points together and things like that instead of going right to the answer and knowing with much more clarity what the answer means that the respondent is giving or the team is giving you still have to have a discussion though about you know what how people you know if you if you measure knowing what's expected you still have to have a discussion about you know what's unclear you know in the context of the works you still have to get into the context of the work to understand it but interpreting the scale is much easier and we still maximize the predictive value yes well you bring up something I had as I thought about our conversation I was going to ask about the yes or no question that is so often in surveys um and it's a dead end a yes or no question is a dead end unless you do the follow-up work which I know is your intent I just I wasn't even going to ask it because I knew that was what the story was but uh yeah so we're looking for the fives um on a scale of one to five and if it's not a five what does it take to get to a five that's right and uh and to have a discussion about what's missing you know yeah um and something as concrete as materials and Equipment you know people and put in the context of the work that somebody's doing and how that would you know maybe help a customer or maybe it would help them do their work more efficiently or and then you got to do the ROI on that but you've got to have the discussion uh something again as concrete as that materials and Equipment can actually cause people a ton of stress um it's linked to stress because people feel they're trying to get something done and there's a barrier to them getting it done and some of those kinds of issues are why we see globally we've seen uh stress increase for the last decade plus among workers and it's now kind of peaked at 44 of people say that they experienced a lot of stress the previous workday and uh so that's you know stress and burnout is certainly something now that we're seeing um organizations are concerned about and mental health of course is something that's come to the surface now and that we're seeing um increases in mental health issues and uh I don't think you can separate that from you know how we're working where we're working and the experience we've gone through um these past few years

### min.: Customer-centric organizations. [27:05]

well the book is uh has a platform for uh customers it starts out with a focus on customers Drucker said the purpose of a business is to create a customer and I was delighted by the way to see uh some uh references to Drucker and he was a strength based guy before strength based was you know popular it's like incredible he just incredible uh so what are the keys well you know you so your work is a lot about how to develop great managers how to develop uh you know CEOs and you know the keys to this whole thing and now you're not now I know you had customer focus before but I mean you really emphasize it in this book so what are the keys to gaining and retaining customers the first is to uh understand the promise that you're making make clear what the promise you're making to your customers what's the purpose of your organization why does it exist and What In the End are you promising your customer and make sure that you live up to that promise um and you know it's interesting Dan that when we have surveyed employees more recently um we found a bit more separation than we've seen in the past between employee employer and um you've probably heard this term that started floating around last summer I suddenly got called about it by a lot of media it's called a quiet quitting yes did you hear that oh yes um so it's hard for me to imagine that somebody could have the mentality of quite I can see how they could get there if they have poor management they feel disenfranchised with the company the organization they they're not there as often so they start feeling more separation but um it equates very much with a category we've called for the last couple decades not engaged right there someone shows up they do the minimum required not much else they don't plan on putting in much discretionary effort but the quiet quitting um employee is basically saying I'm gonna just do the minimum required I'm not gonna go any further than that because I'm either burnout or I just don't feel that sense of commitment think about how that in today's workplaces um how you could actually do that um when a lot of the work that most of us do requires some level of discretionary effort you've got a colleague that might need something you've got a customer and you can't predict every time that happens right what is the minimum required I don't I mean it's hard to even Define what that is but you know it's a mentality that's important to understand because when that's happening it's not good for the company customers so I guess my point to your question is it's it starts with the promise you make and what your organization is about but it's lived through your employees and how they behave every day from uh and the mentality they bring with them about um about the customer and how they link their work and the decisions they make um really in three ways to their own individual productivity but also to the collaboration they have with their co-workers and then the value that they bring to customers can they see the link between the work that they're doing and the end result whether they're Direct customer facing or not um and again I'm using the word customer Loosely because it can it also extends to patience it extends to members for some non-profits and but it's the constituency that we're talking about that you're serving and uh if employees can't see how their work connects to that promise that you're make that you're making um then there's a big gap and you're going to have um more of that so-called quiet quitting going on in your organization where people just feel distant they don't feel it's their responsibility we saw um a drop in people feeling responsible for the quality of service uh customers receive uh among young people whether they're working remote or not and I want to say young Thirty under 35 but even among the older workers who were exclusively remote there's a significant drop so that's the troubling thing to me right now is that uh we've got to get that fixed but we can um there's no question in my mind that we can fix that problem and it might just be a natural occurrence from everything we've experienced the last couple years um and we could have the most highly productive highly customer-centric organizations in you know in history if we get this right because we've got autonomy you know we figured out autonomy is a good thing right that's important uh we got to honor that but we've also got to build some put some systems in place so that people do feel that they're a part of the organization and feel like they're really making a difference and can see how they're making a difference yes I'm glad you're talking about this

### Quiet quitting and flourishing as individuals and organizations. [32:18]

because uh the quiet quitting thing deeply concerns me not just for organizations and customers but for individuals yeah I'm curious about how much of our Wellness crisis you know and isolation and loneliness really comes from disengagement that if I am as a person am not engaged it's pretty dang hard to feel fulfilled about life you know if I spend you know a half or a third of it you know somewhere in between there at work and I and I'm not engaged with it it's like how do I flourish I don't I'm glad you made that point it's a really it's not good for the company and it's really individual to spend that much of your time and something that you're bored with or that you're just not or in some people are loud quitters they just hate it they can't stand their work um that's a smaller percent but a big chunk of the workforce are those people showing up and separating themselves from their employer and uh frustrated with the work or just plain bored with it and that's not good for mental health we just reported um increases in diagnosed depression and treatment with depression which we hadn't seen increases in a long time you know it was like two out of ten which is bad enough but it's gone up to three out of ten and it's grown particularly for young people um so it's but workplaces can play a role I'm not saying the workplace is the only answer but workplaces can play a really important role as you say Dan in giving people a sense of meaning and purpose and uh and having high interest in those moments during the day when you're working instead of regretting it and resenting it which can build up over time and um we've seen uh when we look at the data longitudinally engagement at time one um is an indicator of a new incidence of depression in other words active disengagement feeling negative about your workplace is a predictor of future incidence of uh of depression and anxiety rates so it is a factor it's not the only Factor but it's an important factor and it's a lot of our time well we need social interaction I remember back you know in high school even or college you know about infants who uh basically couldn't flourish in orphanages if they didn't have some sort of physical interaction and that I mean that's just a very simple uh you know we just uh made to connect with people now I love my privacy I love the quiet you do too and if I'm not careful I can go too far in that direction you know I have to be very intentional about reaching out to people and you know I have clients that I talk to but you know just reaching out for conversations um is the uh Tuesday through Thursday for those who can do hybrid work is that enough to satisfy even though we might not like it Right video conferencing is not the same as looking somebody in the face right so is

### Building trust remotely and in person. [35:40]

that is built in yeah trust is built differently um in person versus so the people that already knew each other when they went to this forced experiment um they did well they maintained their relationships because they already built trust they knew what to expect from their colleagues that they'd worked with but the new people are really at risk um because trust is built a lot quicker in person um those in-person interactions are just different how we solve problems is different how we collaborate is different the random things that happen in a workplace even the fun things that happen um the physiological cues are very different in person you can't pick up all of them on video and uh so you asked are is the two to three

### Mood. [36:25]

days enough in our data it looks like it at this point in time that um and this goes back to a study we did pre-pandemic and on social time where we found in person for mood in-person time mattered more than any other technological way to connect all of them were important right so even the technological ways of connecting are important and they improve mood um I have a good mood right now just talking to you Dan we're on video but um but uh but the total amount of time of input so in person time mattered the most for Good Moods but the total amount of time mattered less than the fact that it happens so you could relate that to a lot of things like you know should you show up to holidays well of course you need to show up to your holidays but you don't have to stay too long you know but showing up is the key and our data would suggest that showing up for those two to three days um and for highly collaborative jobs it's three it's more like three days that's where we saw the peaks in engagement Employee Engagement um were those

### The power of one meaningful conversation a week. [37:35]

um but something matters even more than that and that's having at least one meaningful conversation or feedback session or conversation with someone once a week and um we kind of broke down what goes into that but that matters multiple times more than than the number of days but I would use those two to three as a guide because it does force some ritual and we do have some of those in-person experiences that we wouldn't have thought that we'd have you know you get someone like me who does like Focus time and I could easily forget about what happens in person and then you just kind of start going into a slump over time I've got an extroverted wife that gets me out with friends and I end up having a good time so there's that too that helps helps um it is interesting and you brought up I think something I want to be sure to include in our conversation um you have for years said the manager is Central to employee engagement you know Central to customer engagement how I relate to a manager is the CEO and that's in the book so if I like the CEO there's a pretty good chance I like my manager um and you're talking about this one your recommendation is to Really Thrive as a manager and help your team members Thrive they need to have one meaningful conversation a week with you uh I had an us scaring the Daylights out of me so what are your recommendations about that well I think a lot of managers on the surface might see that and it might scare them because they've already got a long list of things that they're working on right there so if you look at that list of um we tried to list off some of them in the book just examples of after reviewing managers uh job responsibilities things like clarifying for people what Senior Management wants to get done and translating that further for their local team paying attention to pay and benefits and priorities and goals and thinking about what materials and resources people need and there's a long list of requirements that managers are already responsible for if you put that all of your job responsibilities as a manager on a piece of paper and you write down underneath that I've had one meaningful I've had meaningful feedback in the last week and you think about how those responsibilities are easier or more efficient if you have that conversation I think you'll learn that every one of those or almost all of them become better or get solved more efficiently if you just have that short conversation once a week and a Cadence around it you're ahead of issues before they escalate again you can readjust priorities on the fly every week if you need to you don't have to wait till it's too late and it doesn't have to be a long conversation if it's regular 15 to 30 minutes can get it done sometimes it might need to be a little bit longer than that but 15 to 30 minutes and then what goes into it needs to be pretty inspiring for the individual and it needs to start with recognition you know but to recognize someone effectively you've got to be in touch with what they're doing um their colleagues too to know how they're helping out other people how they're achieving what's on their list and revisiting how much progress they've made you also need to know how they like to be recognized only 10 percent of people know that so or have someone ask them that so uh that's a basic a basic one when people say what was meaningful feedback what was extremely meaningful feedback to me um it starts the recognition it starts with how I collaborate with my team and discussion about that we know that collaboration now is more important than ever because we are for hybrid workers we're coming and going and we have to think about what works best there goals and priorities I mentioned that goes into a meaningful conversation according to the respondents or the recipients of it um that I mentioned the amount of time and then strengths we talked about strengths a little bit do you know my strengths and are we thinking continuously about how I can use my strengths best and develop them and and and partner with other people who might have very different strengths and to get the work done effectively um it's not that the critique isn't a part of it can very much be but when we ask people about weaknesses that led to less meaningful conversations probably because in the past um our tendency as humans has been to lead with critique before we build trust and uh critique can happen very effectively uh very clear honest feedback with people and corrective if uh We've established some trust if the other person on the other end knows I'm in this for their best interest and I'm really trying to help them develop Reach the objectives they have in front of them um then it's you know it's game on you know you share candid information with one another um because it's best for both people in the end and uh so that's kind of what how meaningful conversation works and um again can be short we found it has to be longer if you don't have that Cadence it's not once a week but why not get ahead of all these issues and you know make the translation of what uh leadership to the front line more effective and um I think I would challenge managers to take a look at their list of responsibilities and let me know if a meaningful conversation once a week didn't make that better well my experience with managers especially those who get promoted up the chain it becomes a very important thing to learn that you have to engage you have to let go of things you can't do all the stuff yourself you're going to drive yourself crazy and that's part of what this is I think what this is about it's is building that relationship and let's face it a person who is engaged wants to know how to do a better job it doesn't hurt my feelings if I'm standing on the foul line shooting foul shots and I want to get them in and somebody says I don't know if you noticed or not but you're holding your feet kind of sideways and you might want to try putting your feet in a different direction it doesn't hurt my feelings you know what I mean because I want to get the dang ball in the hole right so uh I don't as long as we have that like you're saying ongoing which I was fascinated by basically if you have a two short conversations is better than one long conversations what I wrote in the margin of the book you know just go ahead and I was curious it didn't say it in the book but it felt like maybe they don't have to be in your office right I mean it I feel like sometimes their office is better than your office or you know launcher or on the floor somewhere where you can just take a few minutes and it feels to me like that's significant here that's a great Point uh it can happen in a variety of places I've been asked that does that have to be in person I think it in the best of all worlds you would have some of it be in person because of what we talked about earlier about the value of in-person time that's impossible to replicate with technology right now anyway maybe we'll get there at some point but um but uh yeah it's a great point you could meet in there and changing that up and to make something meaningful means you're gonna kind of do it in a format that works for both of you and uh informality is always good I've seen people go for walking meetings before and launch and all that we you know going back to that study on social time I was talking about one of the highest mood um was highest mood periods during the day was when somebody was having um having lunch or dinner um so dining with a friend or dining with a colleague in person of course and uh so that maximizes so if you're going to really try to maximize mood you would probably have lunch together or something in person but um you can have it in a lot of different formats and get the same you know if you mix it up that way I think you're you know you've already established trust and it gives you more leeway to have some flexibility in how you do it one of the things I wanted to ask you

### Challenge and support. [46:33]

about is the on this idea of conversations because let's face it if you have crappy conversations it isn't going to help and one of the tensions that managers feel I think is between the challenging people and supporting people some managers are great at challenging supporting and we all need both or you know we get bored or we get angry or you know it's just negative things it wasn't necessarily right in the book but I'm just personally curious about navigating the mix of challenging employees and also supporting employees so that you get you know they get maximum benefit and everybody's flourishing you know I think you do have to have a mix um and I think you'd have you can have both at the same time um I think when you're being challenged you want to know that you're being supported too so um I think the manager needs to be in it with the employee in terms of what they're trying to get done and be an active part of that and so the challenge is kind of a combined it's a challenge for both it's not just the challenge for the individual um it's a challenge for the team um and in some cases people do need to be challenged to develop a competency you know and but it's for that individual's best interest so if the challenge is in the context of being supported then I think it works and I think it needs to be in the in a way that fits with the manager's strengths so it's authentic yeah right but there are different ways to challenge and people you might challenge people through achievement people love one of the best things we can do as human beings to get something done with other people you know it's just uh it's a very fulfilling thing um but also in some cases it might work to challenge someone through competition because they have happen to be highly competitive um in other cases it might be through development because that's that's the way they're wired so I think we have to start with the individuals and if we start with authentically who I am as a manager who yours employee um then um then it will feel authentic and there's a there's a wide variety of ways that people can challenge one another but when it's authentic there's Trust yes well Jim I I've also just wanted to ask

### Black and white book covers and end matter. [49:05]

you know culture shock is the book uh you've gone to black and white what is uh what's the reasoning between black and white my wife was down looking at my shelf the other day and actually no I had a person in and they looked at the shelf and they said looks like red is the most you know the most uh dominant color I hadn't paid attention to it but it made me wonder about this color well I am not a design expert we have a design expert on our team that does it you like that cover yes uh I thought the other color garage cover was uh distinctive as well I mean it fits in the sense of it looks like it's they're all connected it's connected material you know what I mean yeah I think there's some intentionality around that there's a Gallop look to it so people know what they're getting um it does say from Gallup at the on the front of it too but um we have there has been some intentionality around making the look uh similar across the different books I know red is a popular color for books I see a lot of red ones I probably have yeah I've got some on my shelf too I think it's because it draws attention the same maybe the same reason why they tell you not to buy a red car because the police will spy good point I don't know if there's anything really I'm not very good with uh you know designing the color schemes so that's not really my area I try to focus on the content but we've got people that do an excellent job with that yes it's always a pleasure Jim to reconnect with you and learn from you thank you so much and thank you for sending the book over uh I read the book and I found it to be extremely useful wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to uh anyone who wants to get better at leading and or managing so uh thank you for that thanks for your continued interest in our work Dan it's always great talking with you yes