# Bill Perkins - Memory Dividends, Time Buckets, and Maximizing Net Fulfillment

## Метаданные

- **Канал:** Mad Fientist
- **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUJhxGQRfWQ
- **Дата:** 02.05.2024
- **Длительность:** 1:37:40
- **Просмотры:** 4,984
- **Источник:** https://ekstraktznaniy.ru/video/45852

## Описание

Out of all the episodes of the Financial Independence Podcast, this is the one I wish I heard when I was on my journey to financial independence.

Bill Perkins, author of Die with Zero, joins Chris Hutchins on the All the Hacks podcast to discuss what money is really for – maximizing net fulfillment.

This interview is incredible, so I reached out to Chris to ask if I could share it with you all, and thankfully he agreed!

HIGHLIGHTS

- Why you should maximize for net fulfillment rather than net worth
- When is the best time to allocate money to get the most fulfillment
- Why you should time bucket your experiences instead of having a bucket list
- How to break out of earning-saving-investing autopilot
- Why you should fear wasting your life more than running out of money

SHOW LINK

https://www.madfientist.com/bill-perkins-interview/

## Транскрипт

### Segment 1 (00:00 - 05:00) []

I'm hey what's up everybody Welcome to the financial Independence podcast I know it's been a while since I've been in touch it's already May and this is the first episode I'm putting out this year but that's on purpose I never wanted the Mad FST to be something that was on a set schedule because I didn't want to put out things unless I was really excited about them or really interested in them and since this podcast has been going since 2012 12 I feel like I've talked to most of the people I really wanted to talk to and there's really only one Gap that I see that needs to be filled and that's exactly what today's episode is so today's interview is with Bill Perkins who wrote die with zero which is the book that I really wish I had read during my journey to financial Independence and it's probably been the most impactful book I've read since achieving Financial Independence so I knew at some point I would need to get bill on the show so last year I started doing some research into bill and I started listening to some other interviews and I came across an interview of his on all the hacks podcasts which is actually hosted by a previous mad fientist Financial Independence podcast guest Chris Hutchins he was on the show on episode number 39 way back in 2017 and I listened to Chris's interview and I thought this is exactly what I want to ask Bill about he talked through everything that I had questions about he focused on all the topics that I thought were important and I thought it was a amazing interview so rather than waste Bill's time asking him all the same questions again and trying to replicate Chris's interview I just reached out to Chris and asked if I could post his interview as a podcast takeover on my show and thankfully he agreed and that's what today's episode is so I'm really excited for you to hear it today because if I had to pick any episode in my entire catalog of the financial Independence podcast that I wish I had heard when I was on the path to Financial dependence it would definitely be this one there's just so much good information in here and it's a different perspective that you're used to from previous guests and I think it's a very important perspective to have while you're pursuing Financial Independence or if you're already postf and you're trying to build a life after fi you'll still get a lot out of it like I have and it will change your outlook on saving and spending like it has for me so enough for me big thanks to Chris Hutchins for letting me post this on my show go check out the all the hacks podcast I'll link to it in the show notes uh thanks to bill for doing this great interview with Chris way back in the day and thanks to you for listening and sticking with me like I mentioned I'm not going to be producing too many shows these days but when I do you'll know that it's either something really important that I think you should know or something really interesting that I was excited to learn about so if you're not subscribed to the email list already the best way to stay up to date with the podcast is to go to mad. com sladice and you can join over 100,000 subscribers there and you'll get a PDF of all the great advice I've received on the podcast over the years whenever I ask my guests what's one piece of advice you'd give to somebody on the path to financial Independence I just compiled all that into a PDF that you can download and once you're on the email list you'll get updated whenever I release a new episode and that'll be a lot easier than checking back on your podcast player because who knows when the next episode will be but I'm sure I'll release something at some point and speaking of the email list I just moved over 100,000 subscribers over from my old email service provider convertkit onto my new one so if you're listening to this and you expected to receive an email but you didn't or if the email you received looks weird please email me to let me know because yeah like I said this is the first email I've sent out on the new system and I hope there aren't any bugs but if there are I would definitely like to know about it anyway without further delay here is Chris hutchins's interview with Bill Perkins author of die with zero on the AL the hacks podcast enjoy hello and welcome to another episode of all the hacks a show about upgrading your life money and travel if you're new here I'm your host Chris Hutchin and I'm a DieHard Optimizer who loves doing all the research to help you get the best experience in life without necessarily an expensive price tag though here's a thought experiment imagine that one day you die and you have all this money in your account but actually you don't how does that feel you die with zero scary like you did something wrong that's exactly what today's guest recommends he's Bill Perkins a longtime hedge fund manager and energy Trader who's written a book called die with zero getting all you can from your money and your life I loved the book you might have a lot of objections to his concept and I actually did before I read it but now I'm a huge convert so we're going to dive into all of it we're going to talk about what it actually means to die with zero why might want to stop maximizing net worth

### Segment 2 (05:00 - 10:00) [5:00]

and focus on net fulfillment why you should Bank memory dividends and the ways to do that for maximum Roi why Bill thinks contrary to financial advice you should save less money when you're young why you should think about your life as distinct Seasons or time buckets and how that can help you make the best choices about spending your money and a lot more so let's get started right after this bill welcome to the show and thank you for being here thanks for having me it's great to be here wow we got a lot to go over don't we I didn't even mention some of the we got two daughters there's a lot we could talk about but your book's all about dying with zero and that many people save too much money and leave it behind instead of spending it in ways that are more meaningful you've obviously been very skilled and fortunate at Building Wealth so before we jump into all these lessons I just want to make sure I understand who this is for and does it actually apply to people with just a modest income or who haven't built wealth yet so the book is a bunch of mental models and it's a counterfactual regret minimization algorithm that's solving for net fulfillment a lot of people have algorithms for Building Wealth it's solving for Building Wealth I'm solving for net fulfillment so what variables are the inputs your wealth your health and your time even though people may have more wealth or better health or more time those variables still you can use formulaically with these mental models to maximize your net fulfillment I wouldn't say this book isn't for unhealthy fat people they can still get value out of this to maximize their own net fulfill and the same thing for people with not that much money right like obviously a person who's over saving by millions is formulaically getting more value in terms of the amount of waste that they're wasting by dying with a bunch of money in the bank but everybody still gets value relative to them to get more out of this one ride called life and how do you define net fulfillment so I basically say that the sum of your experiences your choices every moment in your life when you make a decision those choices that is what constitutes your life and the sum of all those decisions and experiences that you consume will determine whether you've had a full life or fulfilling life or not so fulfilling life relative to the best life you could possibly have and so I Define net fulfillment as your choices I. E your experiences and when I use experiences I mean it in the broadest sense of the word I don't necessarily mean always taking a trip it could be walking with Grandmother it could be donating to a charity it's just every single choice that you make and before we jump in I actually want to talk about a few common misconceptions because I feel like some of them came up a little bit late in the book some of them came up early so I feel like this is important so one I'll share and I'll ask if there are others is around retirement and was that the amount you actually need in retirement is often lower than people think and it's no surprise that also people increase their assets in retirement not all of them but a good number of them and so something that was helpful for me to realize is if we're all thinking oh I should save all this money because I'm going to need it be spending well it turns out you probably will spend less based on actual studies not just your opinion and you might actually make more in retirement are there other things that might be common misconceptions people have that understanding might make this whole conversation easier to process in those mindset yeah adjacent to what you're saying about spending the data is kind of overwhelming that people spend less even adjusting for healthcare costs right like people like what about Healthcare and riseing Healthcare it's their bodies the deterioration the change in their attitudes Etc their ability to do or enjoy certain activities probably all of us have a relative that like doesn't like to fly you could take them somewhere but they're like I don't want to sit on a plane for 3 hours because it hurts my back or my knees or something to that effect there's probably people my age or younger 40s used to be athletic and like could not go play a pickup game of flag football right now it wouldn't be as enjoyable they could play it the misconception that's out there is people think their lives are going to be like a Carnival commercial when they retire and it cannot be further from the truth and having lived in the Virgin Islands where these cruise lines all Park up like we'd have three four to seven ships during High season coming in and the main activity is going into the shops right not these athletic activities to buy something not for themselves but for their granddaughters or a relative Etc like they're actually looking for ways to consume the money that they have because they cannot consume it into the experience that they thought they would you talk about the declining utility of money with age you have all this money and you say oh I'm going to punt on this awesome amazing trip till I'm retired and I can take time off work and then you're like I don't know do I really want to go walk around Japan non-stop I say this because I took my family my sister her husband my parents to Japan and the degree to which we wanted the kids to go explore was just not the degree to which my parents were willing to go and I don't know if they would have thought that was the case 20 years ago go but there were

### Segment 3 (10:00 - 15:00) [10:00]

things they had to miss out on because they're just older and they couldn't keep up yeah I think a lot of people have the model in their head that their ability to convert money into experiences like your body is static it will remain the same they kind of divorc this idea that wow my mental acuity is going to decline my lung capacity bone density is going to decline my muscle mass is going to decline about 1% a year after age like 35 so they don't put all these facts together in that hey this is obviating either my desire or ability to actually enjoy these activities and so you have a prime example of walking around Japan in Tokyo and so they delayed that trip or that gratification let's just assume they did to a point where there really wasn't any gratification Tokyo was less valuable a trip to them I think there were things where we came home and we were like oh you missed this thing they were like we're okay because if we had pushed ourselves it would have been a mess but we had a great trip like I think they but I think that 5 10 years ago they would have gotten to do 20% more and it would have been a better trip correct you do the best with what you have there's no sense and crying over spilled milk or what they did or didn't do but you can easily look at the scenario and say that was not the optimal time for them to take that trip in the totality of the Arc of their lives we don't get to play a Sim game and Marte Carlo Our Lives be like well let me do this trip here and that whatever but what I try to do with this book is get people to think about how do I optimize for fulfillment where do experiences belong first what experiences do I want right in my life and then very importantly where do those experiences belong where does the trip to Japan belong where does going to the Opera belong where does hiking this mountain belong when does the ski trip along and that matters it may matter more than the what I'll give an example that you basically put on a banger of a 50th birthday party but you decided to just do it when you were 45 because it would be a better experience to me that was a big mow was like oh you always think let's do this thing at this milestone in life and you just like let's just do it earlier so that I get more out of it yeah there's other smaller examples I was in an island and the guys were going to go wakeboarding you may have heard me say this and I was like no I'm just going to chill here relax Etc and I have a degenerative cartilage in L3 L4 and so my wakeboarding days are limited and if I was going to go weight boarding it's not 5 years from now and then I was like okay when is the next time I'm going to be on an island where it's warm and there's actually a wakeboard and a wakeboard boat with these friends Etc to go wakeboarding that I physically can do it and I quickly came to the conclusion never it's now or never this is the last wakeboarding chance I'm probably going to have for the rest of my life and so I quickly said I can Lounge on the beach and relax until my 80s I can't go wakeboarding so now is the time to go wakeboarding so I got on the boat and said I'm just going to go do this and that was my last wakeboarding run ever I have a similar experience but it wasn't my last I had always as a kid been a skateboarder snowboarder and I'd always wanted to go wakeboarding and for some reason just the opportunity never arose and finally I was like you know what I'm not getting to the point that I couldn't wakeboard in 5 years but like I'm getting to the point that if I want to try to do crazy stuff on a wakeboard I probably should do it now yeah and then we rented a boat my brother-in-law and I went out and literally the boat was like defective and could not go fast enough to do anything so I still need to get that checked off my list because we basically were just like trolling around on this boat and we got a refund which was cool but I still haven't ticked that one off and you talk about trying to bucket these things so you have all these ideas in life your theory is instead of saying make this big list you could have a bucket list but you kind of have this anti- bucket list so why is bucketing things so different than a bucket list and why is the distinction important I like to go backwards to either zero and infinity to try and get a concept across so just before you were born you're in heaven the universe The Matrix creators whatever your thing is and then God says to you what experiences do you want to have on your journey on planet Earth you have 86 years 79 years whatever it is what experiences you want to have and you go to the hall of experiences which is really the Hall of choices right you're like I want to go skateboarding this many times and traveling I want to have kids I want to get a degree I want to say I love you this many times every single thing you can think of I'm going to do any Charities I want to whatever and you throw it into your infinite bucket of experiences it's not infinite because you're a human Etc God goes great you can have all those experiences there's only one problem you have to get the order right and so the guy who puts the like I want to go hella skiing and puts it in the 80 to 85 bucket probably doesn't get to go hellis ske right cuz our decisions are Dynamic our body has a health curve utility curve and certain things belong in certain areas so I picked like kind of these cartoon exaggerated examples of the why the timing matters what experiences belong when but there's tons of them people have kids and they're

### Segment 4 (15:00 - 20:00) [15:00]

like oh I'm going to hang out with my kids when they're 13 or 14 more we're going to go this I'm going to wait for this and your kids don't want to know you when you're 13 and 14 or they don't want to do the same activities when you're younger and people are very acutely aware of how they spend time with their kids and what activities they can do with their kids at certain periods in their life in certain seasons of life but that applies to everyone in every relationship even business your health spiritual Etc and not only are these there limits there's your attitude changes certain experiences are orthogonal to other experiences my flag football days are done man I'm not trying to pull a hamstring twist the knee Etc because of my body the recovery time not that I can't do it not that it wouldn't be fun while I'm doing it but it would be less enjoyable afterwards and it wouldn't be as enjoyable let's say in my 20s or 30s like hey let's go play flag football after work I would never say that now right like never ever right so if I had in my bucket of experiences that had to happen been in the 20 to 33 bucket we haven't talked about memory dividends but I think it's interesting because just because you did that in your 30s doesn't mean you don't get value out of it in your 40s or your 50s or 60s it's just something I'd never seen or heard or thought about which was you could stack these memories throughout the rest of your life if you actually do them and enjoy them and document them maybe to enhance it yeah the purpose of money is to fulfill your life right it's for your consumption you want to use all your resources that you have your wealth and health and time to get the maximum fulfillment let's just go with that I always ask people this what are you saving for they'll give me some abstract like retirement I'm like no no like house home whatever okay I'll give you survival once your survival is covered what are you saving for I want to know exactly in your mind what are you saving for sometimes people will give me a legit like a very definitive answer of like I want to take this trip I want to go to the Opera I want to be able to take a cruise every single year of my life from 66 to the Grave or whatever it is but a lot of times it's an abstract land it's just this autopilot answer and when you save money it's attached to some future consumption or experience and that experience is going to give you some sort of fulfillment or Joy when you consume an experience you have joy from that experience but also when you recall that experience and revisit that experience you get joy from it so it pay a dividend what I call the memory dividend anybody who's had a first kiss hit a game-winning home run they've told that story over and over again and when they tell that story and they recall that story they get a sense of fulfillment from it that experience that original experience is paying a dividend and also creating a new memory as I discuss with you hey my backpacking trip or my trip to Asia Etc and that adds up to our fulfillment now you can do it the other way around you can say well here is the original experience and here are the dividends and here's the total fulfillment there or I can put the money in this investment it will pay dividends I'll have more money and I'll buy more experiences in the future and we have to weigh these two things out to optimize it is it better to take one ski trip now with my friends and buddies or two ski trips 10 years from now because the money's for consumption we're going to use it all so the question is when is the best time to allocate and which provides the total return on fulfillment what gets me the highest fulfillment depending on who you are what your age is and the things you like going through that mental exercise May produce different results me at 53 a lot of the times the answer is not two trips 10 years from now it's the activity now plus the dividends will surely exceed two of the activity later in life you can just calculate what that return is it as simple as a rule of thumb where it's like for however many years in the future this thing will be a memory it is worth wor I don't know 10% more every year is there some simple math I would put it to you and your followers to be like hey we're going to run a calculator and you can put in your health degradation all these formulas and we'll give you a better idea of what it's going to be worth you later in life versus now but for me I just deeply think about it like I sit down like wakeboarding there is no future wakeboarding right it might have been two wakeboarding trips later spend the money be with your friends Etc but generally as you get older I think the answer is like when you're 20 22 maybe two ski trips two and a half ski trips at 30 is a much better deal you're more mature you'll have your stuff together other things be going on I'll have some friends it'll be bigger and better I can afford the upgrade whatever maybe it's a better trip for me at 53 two ski trips is not the answer I went on this trip my wife and I hadn't read your book so somehow had this spark of let's quit our jobs and let's spend all our savings and let's backpack around the world for 7even months and we did this in our 20s I am 100% certain that the money that we

### Segment 5 (20:00 - 25:00) [20:00]

spent wouldn't even buy one trip around the world for two months now that we have a different lifestyle we have kids and all this stuff so I think it's especially interesting for someone in their 20s or early 30s forgoing that trip now isn't going to let your money grow to be two trips because I'm almost certain that by the time that money is enough for the two trips the cost of a trip is going to be twice or three times as much it might not even be enough to go on one you're including also the economic inflation of the trip also the fact that you become more bougie as you get older like it's hard to do the youth hostile backpacking thing as you get older that's not even a physical thing that's like your attitude changes you realize that certain activities going back to this time bucketing belong in your 20s and they don't transfer well to your 30s now you may be able to do them but it's just not as enjoyable or it'll cost infinite more money or whatever it is and that the 20's activity not only do you get to enjoy it more but the discussion the memories the conversation it's the thing that makes you interesting like when I sit down and talk with somebody at a dinner I just met them I'd say 80% of the conversation is what have they done what experiences have they have what were their learnings what has been their journey and maybe 20% is what they're going to do or what's going on currently Etc and that is what drives your fulfillment when you're meeting somebody makes you an interesting character and so getting the order right and figuring out hey is it worth it to delay or not is a very personal thing and it's very dependent on which activities or things fulfill you but it's definitely the thought process that you want to go through my takeaway so far is don't necessarily focus on accumulating money to all extent because you can use that money earlier to create experiences that provide value the rest of your life if the purpose is I want to get the max value and I say the max value is fulfillment you got to change your optimization algorithm in your head to optimize for fulfillment a lot of people keep optimizing for money and I'm like listen okay why don't you optimize for the most money at 86 and they'll obviously will go no that's dumb well it's the same is true at night 85 or 84 or 83 or any year we should be optimizing for fulfillment money is just a tool for your fulfillment you are not a tool to make money and a lot of people operating in the ladder not the former I want to come back to identifying that but there's a couple things on bucketing experiences and memory them so we had a wedding as many people do and we paid for a photographer videographer although many people that have listened know that we negotiated to pay for the videographer by swapping frequent fly miles instead of dollars because we wanted to get a deal but looking back that video has not been seen by millions of people it's friends and family and we've watched it every few years but I think it's really reinforced the memory of the wedding and the photos do the same I'm curious if there are any other tactics that can enhance the dividends that our memories pay so that we can get more value of them after we have them I think technology is doing something wonderful Google photos or iPhones will do this they'll be on this date and then photos will pop up of what happens and then you get joy out of that and it Sparks a conversation you get fulfillment from an experience that you had and the recall of it so it's triggering and tapping in to your memory dividend to your memories to provide you value one of the gifts my fiance at the time gave me was a box and it had photos and memories and little comments on what it was and I was like this is the best gift close to zero cost of any kind of purchase Etc paper cards some photos printed out Etc and her perspective but it was amazing on how much joy it was and really I was just mining the prior experience and experience dividend if somebody comes up with another tool or another idea another method I'm open to it I really want to mind the memory dividend and get the most out of my investments and my investments are I invest in experiences cuz that's what fulfills me just like Warren Buffett says when do you start investing early now now in order to get the maximum what I call memory dividend maximum return everyone says compound interest is so important you should invest as early as you can to have the most money possible you're saying I have the same principle it's just I'm not optimizing for money so invest invest as early as possible in the kinds of experiences that will maximize your fulfillment of Life yeah I agree when people are focused on returns and compound interest Etc they're optimizing for maximum money that's a vertical your wealth getting your wealth up and there's lots of books and lots of tools tricks hacks on how to get the most out of every dollar you spend how to make the most money Etc but I'm at a top level optimization I'm at a much higher optimization on like your life fulfillment your net fulfillment and the memory dividend is a huge calculation in it and I really encourage people to invest in making those memory divs or at

### Segment 6 (25:00 - 30:00) [25:00]

least think about that when you're deciding whether to delay gratification or actually have gratification now one thing that's helped me in this is if you think about the marginal dollar that you're saving I so often I hear people this is probably people with a little more money but they're like oh well I should save more money and I'm like well why they're like well then I'll have more money and I get a higher net worth and I say what's that next marginal dollar going to do for you because people always say well if I save an extra,000 a month that's my kids's college and it's like well do you already have your kids college saved cuz if so then what's that extra dollar doing and with that extra dollar actually be better spent today yeah going back to I try and get people to map their money to what the consumption is a lot of people saving they're like oh I'm saving or I'm working I'm like listen it's okay to save just tell me what the party is and when's the party just tell me when the party is I'm okay with it you know what I mean like it gets some thinking like well 65 no that's not really when I have the party wait what kind of party do I have what are the things I really want to do because what happens is I believe is people get habituated they get really good at optimizing for money making money doing deals whatever it is they are programmers Etc and they keep piling it and much like a rat and the wheel with the cheese experiment pretty soon you can just show them the wheel and not give them the cheese there's no reward and so people are in default mode network of accumulating wealth making money earning money optimizing money I read the book on how to save on this I got 188 million feret flyer miles I discounted that look at all these Chuck-E-Cheese tokens I got and then they die with a bunch of chuckecheese tokens and never really go to Chuck-E-Cheese and I'm like when you going to Chuck-E-Cheese you know you've been running this rat wheel right you got all these tickets everything but what are we buying here what are we saving for and I think people become detached from what their original dream was when what they really wanted to do such that the game and the puzzle solving people come addicted to the puzzle of saving more money as opposed to being addicted to the puzzle of how do I fulfill my life what potluck thing am I going to do how do I expose myself to other things what choices should I be making today what experiences do I want in this time period of my life and the next time period of life and how do those fit together they're more focused on a different puzzle when it comes to these bucketing of experiences is there a number of years that you say well try to bucket them in tranches of 5 years or 10 years or how do you think about that so people can actually go home and be like let's start doing this today I try and do 5 years like when I got to my 65 I broke it out 65 to 75 it gets wider and obviously the further you go in future the less your visibility even for yourself like okay yeah 53 to 58 this is what I want to do this I want to take a train I want to go to my daughter's graduation I want to stay healthy I want to go trip I want to go to Tokyo again I have all those things kind of down right and then the next 5 years it gets harder I kind of think I want to be doing this right they're a little bit more thematic and then 65 75 to the Grave it gets even more thematic but I can tell you that when I look at those choices when I try and time bucket my life I can see the level of activity going down I see it harder for me to spend money it's like visit grandchildren hang out with daughters read the books I haven't read it's not like go raging stay up till 700 a. m. in a club in Tokyo travel here swim that if you could perfectly lay out the experiences you wanted to have which you can't you would see this natural curve in the cost of those experiences this natural consumption pattern and then you start to say well I don't want to give up hours of my life for a bunch of Chuck-E-Cheese tokens that I'm not going to use so I'm going to go to Chuck-E-Cheese and then you start to lay out well I'm probably going to go to Chuck-E-Cheese a lot here I'll play the wacka game that costs a lot and I do whatever and the another time I'm just going to sit around and eat pizza and then you have this nice beautiful curve on consuming and spending your money down to zero as you have the most fulfilling Chuck-E-Cheese experience basically the most fulfilling life I don't know why I'm stuck on Chuck-E-Cheese but am for some reason this is strange but two nights ago we talked about chuckecheese randomly and I was showing our opair from Spain what Chuck-E-Cheese was because she was like I have no idea what you're talking about I was like man Chuck-E-Cheese has kind of become a more depressing place than I remember it in my childhood you're talking about it I'm like oh man don't want to be the Chuck-E-Cheese guy going there in my 50s it's kind of to me like cold water I was like going into the Atlantic Ocean I was like wow I used to go in here as a kid all the time like no problem now it's freezing I would never go in there that's kind of like an activity if you were in heaven it's like go swimming and frolocking and body surfing in the Atlantic Ocean you're probably not going to enjoy it as much as when you were nine or five and immune to the cold for whatever reason because it was just so wee to when you're like 20 something you're like this are freezing like why am I here that type of thing are there

### Segment 7 (30:00 - 35:00) [30:00]

any experiences that maybe you regret not doing more of younger or things that people listening in their 20s and 30s should maybe prioritize more yeah I think it's very personal and it has to do with like travel that kind of backpacking experience that kind of Gap year thing that people do I just really didn't take advantage of that time period I was so focused on trying to get ahead and make money and not taking breaks and was on this autopilot of like must succeed and not saying that wasn't a great focus and didn't help me get to here but the success I want is the most fulfilling life and I gave up things that would have been extremely fulfilling not only then but now as I look back on my life and that's going to be different for everybody i' be like I wish I would to go play in this chess tournament it could be anything I knew at an early age that travel and meeting new cultures and doing adventurous things really fulfills me I really enjoy that and I did not take advantage of those opportunities that I had I didn't really think about the context I'm like you know what I can go to a club in Manhattan any day I can hang out in this weekend any day like why don't I get the Super Saver ticket go here for the weekend come back Etc that type of thing I was really lucky because I got laid off in 2008 and so I didn't have a job and my wife was working at a company that she just absolutely hated and didn't want to stay in that field and so we kind of got forced in this situation where she was like well I'm going to quit my job and I don't know what's next and I already didn't have a job so we ended up taking this trip for I know 7 months backpacking just as you describe but I think it would have been so much harder had at least one of us not been forced out of a job and kind of pushed into this and so what I'm curious to get your take on is the culture of work in America at least and probably many other countries makes it so hard to be like let's take a year off now I'm thinking in 30s and 40s let's cut back so I'm not grinding so hard or my wife's thinking in her career she's like oh wow if I ever got another job like it's got to level it up whereas usually leveling it up is more responsibility and more time how can people in the work environment we've created in this country still live to these ideals and not get caught in that hamster wheel wow it's really tough to escape your culture right it's extremely tough culture changes slowly regards to work and optimizing for not being afraid of running out of money and status and having more and more money it's really hard to step back and go wait does this serve me does this serve my one and only life that I have is this really going to fulfill me or have I become a robot hamster in a wheel grinding and puzzle addicted to solving this puzzle called More Money More status more Fame Etc I call that autopilot I say we're always on autopilot I'm on autopilot just as much as the next person and we have to snap out of it and be like what really fulfills me what do I really want out of life out of these next 5 years we're so trained like I want the promotion and I want the thing why do you want the promotion because the promotion the thing and I have more money why do you want the more money is better the thing it's all the way down it's so inculcated into us about success is more money and it's an abstract that we lose the final connection that money is an abstract it's a tool it's like a hammer and a saw Builders don't want Hammers and saws because they love Hammers and saws they want Hammers and saws to build houses that is the goal they're not like must accumulate more Hammers and saws this is how people are they're like we must accumulate more money to have more money to more money money and I'm like no life [ __ ] we're here to fulfill your life you are solving the wrong problem you optimizing for the wrong problem and culture has pretty much Jam that on everyone really hard because there's this fear of not having money you don't want to run out of money and fear of retirement there's this whole fear game with retirement people ask why do old people keep growing their wealth while they're older and I'm just like they can't spend it down life is passing by that's the cold heart truth I'm really harsh about that I'm like they [ __ ] it up that's why they can't spend it down they [ __ ] it up and it's too late for them my book these algorithms these methal models are to help you not [ __ ] it up as much we're all going to [ __ ] it up a little bit like can't be perfect but it's like let's not [ __ ] it up I worked with this woman whose job is to kind of help people take their outlook on life that might have some different unconventional contrarian thoughts and really boil it down to some framework some model and we kind of arrived at like my nine principles of living an optimized life and I'm not ready to share them all yet but one of them was questioning the outcome you actually want and I want to bring it up because of what you just said earlier I met someone who said gosh I need more money and I was like what do you said I want to spend more time with my kids and if I have more

### Segment 8 (35:00 - 40:00) [35:00]

money I'll be able to retire sooner and spend more time with my kids and through this conversation we were like what if you had a different job that earned you a little less money but gave you the freedom to work four days a week and now you have a whole day that you could spend more time with your kids and you weren't grinding as hard and they're like well then I wouldn't have any money and I was like you don't need the more money anymore because you don't need to retire early to spend your time with your kids at 50 you could start spending it now and in product management when we're building software and talking to customers we always ask the five wise so someone says oh I want this and it's like you got to ask why five times before you actually understand what someone wants so I'll challenge people thinking they want more money to go through that thought experiment themselves of being like why do you want the more money and drill down and then ask yourself is there actually once you get to that fifth y a way you could achieve what you want that actually isn't about just accumulating more money and I would argue that more often than not the answer will be yes the book your money or your life kind of hits on this concept of enough and what are you really solving for you're doing like spend more time with your kids but I'm making more money to save time on your kids but if you make more money are they really kids then do they want to spend time with you there's a lot of variables going on but going through that thought experiment you actually get to pull out more from them they're like it's really about the status It's really because you've been habituated into making more money there may be this desire to spend more time with your kids but that's not the real reason there's other reasons whether they be habit or some sort of goal Etc that we got to address we got to look at and be like do those reasons serve you what would you say to some someone let's say in their mid-30s who's got a great job and looking to do something new and feeling like the only option is to go take that next level up job that's going to be higher pay and more responsibility and probably limit their ability to have the kinds of experiences they want because they're so engulfed in work but they're stressed out because they feel like doing anything else would be a downgrade in their career how would you talk them through that the main thing is what are we solving for and all of them the first variable the second variable and the third variable and like how can we Max them out they're like oh I want to actually spend time and have more fun and do X Y and Z and i' be like well okay this is one of them I'm going to be my own insurance agent I talk about that in a book like people try and basically be their own insurance agent by Saving enough money for every single Calamity that's their back of default skew well just what if this happens what if that happens I try and find these things that they're actually solving for and then help them make the decision on what's the best decision for them we may come to the conclusion that taking our more responsibility now because a job pays so much damn money and in quitting in a year will actually lead to more fulfillment more fun and then I'll quit and I'll goof off and do whatever the stock options are going to go into money and I'm going to make a zillion dollars have s years of just Bliss and goofing off as opposed to grinding it out five years in this lower paying job Etc I'd have 100% of the time but that's usually the Rarity in these scenarios and they never quit yeah they never quit it's like you don't have to quit your job you just have to consume the fruits of your labor you have to get everything you have to find your balance you can love what you do but you should also be able to do what you love a lot of people went to work cuz they wanted the house and they wanted to have kids travel and they wanted to ski and they wanted to start a rock band or some expensive hobby with telescopes or whatever it is and somewhere along the way those things kind of fall to the Wayside they don't exist anymore and it's the money and whatever and we kind of instinctively attach some sort of reason oh the kids I want to spend more time with my kids I'm like n no you don't that's not what you're solving for with this job or at least this equation doesn't compute if they were my friends like real close friends I'm like no you don't you're bullshitting yourself you can lie to me but just don't lie to yourself and then we go through it in a more gentle approach is let's just see if this formula computes let's put it up on the board let's map out the time get really detailed like okay how much more money you're going to get when are you going to have the time how much more spare time you going to have when does this happen is your kid still a kid do they still want to hang out with you okay what's this other job no 2hour commute that's 2 hours a day you can have your kids well it seems like if we're solving for time with the kid this job may be better than this job because the money you accumulate you really don't have the time to spend it because you're working harder and you have more responsibilities and it's in the future and your kid's not a kid anymore and they're gone we might come to that conclusion depending on what we put on the board so much like you do you're digging in if I switch this and I fly this plane and I do this on Tuesday I get the most frequent flyer miles you're optimizing for the most miles I would look at that trip as like yeah miles is one of the things I'm optimizing for But ultimately I'm optimizing for the best [ __ ] trip and the most memory dividends and the most fulfillment out of this trip so that's number one priority and number two is the miles I think when we went to South Africa for this trip around the world we had like five layovers because we stopped one place then we changed planes and the plane landed in Sudan but we could even get off the plane so we just sat there until it took off again and all this

### Segment 9 (40:00 - 45:00) [40:00]

stuff now I'm like how can I get there with zero to one stop if it's really far close zero stops and that's forced me to reprioritize what I want to talk about a few things how do we implement this but maybe first some of the common objections to changing this so two things you talked about one is preventing running out of money I think everyone I know is like I want to make sure I have enough what if I live to 110 what if Health gets so great that I'm living forever what do you tell to people who are trying to optimize for every possible thing that could happen how to just get either comfortable with the risk that they don't need it or you even mention the book like just get an annuity like if you're worried about running out of money get an annuity get the reverse of life insurance everybody gets life insurance right they're like I have life insurance if I die early Etc well if you're worried about living too long it's the exact opposite they have an insurance product for that or they're worried about what if I nurses or whatever I'm like long-term healthc care insurance is pretty cheap it's actually very cheap because I think one of the reasons is when you need those nurses you're on your way out they're not going to be paying that long but it's pretty cheap particularly if you get it while you're younger 30s and 40s it's actually trivial for people of the wealth category that you're talking about I look at things that people are acting as an insurance agent inefficiently and I'm like let's be more efficient on how we ensure away these risks and it might be an insurance product Etc and some of the things that let's say there's not an insurance product or whatever their fear of I try and convert Their Fear of you should fear wasting your life more than you fear running out of money I try and redirect them to that what are the things you want to have what experience when this is your life you will die it doesn't go on forever what is urgent to you and what is urgent for each period when we have that conversation in my presence and their presence while they think about you're like yeah you're right the key is to keep them on that because you have that conversation they go back and they're right back on the pilot let's go run in the wheel cuz it's fun to no cheese no reward no fulfilling life just a battery a robot a cog and a wheel for the economic system I implore them to stay focused on always attach your efforts to what the goal what the consumption is so that is how I get them on the goal and every single objection whether it's what if I live too long what if I need long-term care insurance Etc there is a way to minimize that risk or mitigate that risk more efficiently than the way they are doing it right now because honestly they've just been doing on autopilot it's just a back stop reason to back up why they're doing it you know how some behaviors you'll just do them and then you'll throw a reason after the fact on why you're doing it and you're just doing it because it's own autopilot that's a lot of those reason well I'm working real hard because of what if I get sick like okay when you get sick and it's $20,000 a night in a hospital beted are you really the insurance agent no you're buying insurance for that let's really think this through so when you're sitting across someone sometimes it's a lot of chalkboard work you know I mean it's a lot of going through it and that's why I tell people like you need to sit down and think about this honestly with yourself and work through these priorities and what your fears let's go one by one to try to mitigate them because if we're solving for the most fulfilling life everything else is secondary and everything else needs to be solved we want to consume as much as possible in the right times and you talk a lot about risk but is it sometimes that risk is really just fear yeah it's just [ __ ] fear and a lot of it's fear of embarrassment fear of running out of money that is like the worst thing for people not because they can't go get some basic job and survive just the embarrassment the status the ego attached to it and I guess why because like if you run out of money or you were at high status and now you're working at McDonald's say or whatever and you get that shame and people mocking you whatever if you wait was your life and die nobody's mocking you can't know you're dead the people were alive are like wow that [ __ ] guy what a clown dude that guy died with $4 billion what a [ __ ] idiot he got completely habituated to be a cog in the [ __ ] wheel great one dude you know what I mean thank you for your service thank you for putting out all this value getting a fraction of yourself and never using it and then donating 40% to the US Treasury we [ __ ] love that guy they don't hear that they're dead but if you somehow go start some business and it fails people like I told you so I knew it was going to happen should have would have could have and your ego can't handle that so I always think it's fear and the fear is not the actual bad thing the fear is the ego associated with the failure but that's just me it would help if Society put more of an emphasis on like wow you didn't go and spend your money you didn't go on a trip this year you did nothing this year yeah somebody said I put it to a bunch of 20-year olds or class or something it's like who would switch right now with Warren

### Segment 10 (45:00 - 50:00) [45:00]

Buffett none of them they're like well he's got x billion dollars or whatever I don't want to be that rich and old there's no amount of money you can give me to give up my life so a lot of people are doing some version of this always tell people there's no amount of money you can pay me to do 5 years in Sing maybe at 19 you could have done it but right now no amount of money and some people are doing some sort of version of jail giving up their life for this money I like to how you reframed someone who wouldn't take the risk to move to make more money to do something as like they're paying to just sit still Yes by not taking up an opportunity I like these mindset shifts that you introduce in the book which is just like think about it this different way and maybe that'll help you get over that hurdle yeah just quantify and you may come to the same decision yes I'm happy paying the fine sitting here or you might be like that's ludicrous I actually would get much more money and I would be able to spend more quality time with the people I love that I'm leaving than I do right now I've had to conversation with people like oh I don't want to leave New York because my mom's here and so and so's herec I was like okay let's break this down how many times do you see them a week a month okay let's write that down how many all right whatever and then okay what's the money difference and then what's a plane ticket back and forth and then you could probably take them on vacation and you spend more time so in theory you can spend more time more quality time and make more money expand your contact Network Etc with this move even though you're saying you don't want to move because of the people that are here and sometimes that formula doesn't work out but at least you go through the exercise and then you know you don't have this future regret like you have this regret minimization you be like I made the right decision I went through all the Avenues Etc I actually get more time with my family by staying here or I've made the right decision I actually expand my network have more money and actually spent more time with the people I love in a better way in a better format in a more fulfilling format and so that's a book this is the mental model we're solving for net fulfillment I did an interview episode 40 with Dan pink who wrote a book about regret and he talked about like one of the big four regrets is a regret of boldness and people in their old age are like I just wish when I wanted to do this thing I went and did it and I almost feel like a default assumption should be instead of when you're thinking should I move should I go on this adventure should I do this thing just try to every time be like should I not do it try to always assume that you're going to do this bold thing and see if you can talk yourself out of it instead of talk yourself into it it's not easy but if you're ever faced with this kind of tough should I do this big thing just try to say okay let's assume I do it why shouldn't I do it and I think that could help change that mindset cuz I think it's hard one thing I did once and you did a similar one I think was more extrem is I find that if you're ever worried about money go experience what it's like to make money doing something with without a job so for me my wife was at lift and I was like I'm just going to sign up for a lift driver I did it for two reasons one it was really rewarding to realize like I can convert my time to money in a moment if I don't have a job anything I can still convert it to money the second thing it was good was it just put probably too low but it put a threshold on what my time is worth and it helped me realize that like every hour I'm not driving my car around picking people up I am spending money to not do that because I could be making money you went pan handling just to try to similar I've done that was an exercise from an emotional intelligence class went pan handling and it was really really moving enlightening humbling all these things at the same time one it was like oh I can survive like I can make $54,000 easy pan handling a year that was a kind of annualized I was running the rate and I didn't even really have a sign or anything I just took my shirt out put it inside out rubbed it on the concrete and then just had a cup on a corner on an intersection and I was like well if I was at a busier intersection you know I was like doing the calculations Etc but I was like I may be in a humbling situation but I can make money just in a panhandling way it was also kind of free but I've always had that risk mindset like I'll always be able to exchange hours of my life for money in order to eat shelter myself and I don't mean like hey I'm living on the high on the hog I can get like these cheap ass Apartments these one bedrooms Etc I will always be able to do that so it liberates me to go there's really not that much downside it's an ego downside it's a humbling downside but there's really not much downside I should be swinging for the [ __ ] fences even more so like I'm okay with it you don't really need to ensure yourself against the risk that you run out of money because you've now established that like just sitting on the ground can make you money you could do that when you're young old if you've established that you can maybe you're comfortable not saving to Ure against every possible risk there's people out there who Ure against these RIS that you don't want to have these boogy men that do it for less of a cost of you wasting your life like

### Segment 11 (50:00 - 55:00) [50:00]

they're more efficient think any kind of waste in your time whether you're exchanging your time for money or your money for time any kind of waste leads to less fulfillment and so you really want to be like am I the right person to insure myself against This calamity or should I pay an insurance agent whatever this fee is and that will be more efficient result in net fulfillment for me when I look at this activity or whatever should I be exchanging hours in my life for money or should it be the other way around what's an hour of my time worth at this level at that level Etc these are questions we should be asking ourselves all the time like is that shirt really worth 2 hours of my time am I going to get two hours of fulfillment out of it does that really fulfill me you know that was the beauty of your money or your life is that it really connected me with my values it really made me think what I want out of life what I'm willing to give up an hour of my life for or not and then also hit home that I really want a value of an hour of my time to be extremely high I went the other way so that I didn't have to worry about it but even after like I not have to worry about it now let's say I have all these resources called wealth and I have my health how am I going to allocate this over my life to get the max fulfillment that was the next step I was like great now I'm rich now what do I do when should I spend it all perfect you just teed up what I want to talk about is like implementing this I now have a lot of the mindset ideas and the Frameworks on how to do this and what I left with the book thinking I was like okay how does someone figure out based on where I'm at today should I be spending more money less money how do you answer that question it's a tricky question the first thing I asked is the experience that we all want for is survival so have we survive for our survival number so I introduced that concept of like okay when you no longer can work or Etc do you have enough to have the very Basics like food shelter clothing and depending on where you are that's a different number and then after that like how do I spend my money I try and use Health as a forcing function because it is on the allocation of spending money I look at my parents my ancestors we literally had to kidnap my mom to take her to Scotland for her 80th birthday it was an ordeal she had a time of her life but it was like an ordeal to get it we're like you're coming whatever we're getting you out here but what I realized is that my mom does not consume much money at all my grandmother did dad did not want to leave his apartment when it come to all now I always say I'm going to be different cuz in shape or whatever but the reality is I'm going to be some version of that so I'm like the idea that I'm going to be having this chronical crew's life at 77 to 86 is [ __ ] I'm not going to be consuming that much so I'm thinking if I'm going to have parties travel if I'm going to hike these mountains if I'm going to do these activities if I'm going to even just go on a walk in the park and do a seven mile hike with my kids a free activity those activities belong here and I need to consume them now so even the free ones have to get bucketed and I always think about that aspect of it because I'm like how do I allocate my fun once my survival is covered there's no perfect answer but I do look at that hey my net worth should be peing between 45 and 55 and if I'm in the peak how does this curve go down and I try and match it for me I've been talking to these doctors like Peta Tia and Chris Rena Etc and what I really want to know is what is the pace of my body deteriorating mind lung capacity deteriorating and then I know like oh if you are this type of activity your enjoyment of activity goes down linearly with this Decline and your ability to do it completely cuts off once you reach this level read somewhere I think it's like 2 wat hours per kilogram to climb a flight of stairs or something like that there's like formulas out there I'm like okay so if you need to run and play soccer and jum to play basketball you need X wat hours per kilogram of energy muscle and what that converts to and then we know how many wat hours per kilogram people have as they age and I was like wow this would be great to figure out where my consumption is and that's what I was trying to build with this model like you're an Optimizer and build this model and I realize this is impossible there's so many goddamn inputs so really it comes down to a mental model of each activity like okay here's the straight line to the grave of spending down all my money here's kind of the curve I think it should be to get to my survival number Etc and then when I look at my time bucketing wait a minute I said I was be spending less but I like riding on trains and that doesn't take any energy but it costs a lot of money so let's change the spending in

### Segment 12 (55:00 - 60:00) [55:00]

the curves like this so it's not going to necessarily always be this perfect log normal curve down to Zero from your Peak it could be no but there's trains and I want to write trains and then down each person is different it really takes a lot of thinking and a lot of off autopilot cuz you have to know what you want you have to have an idea at least 70% of what you want a lot of it's going to be Discovery potluck and then you have to think about the winds you have to be honest with yourself a lot of people like oh I'm in better shape than I was when I was 30 and you're 50 I'm like well that means you were just really out of shape of 30 and so that's it and I know that's not like the answer people want to hear they're like I want the spreadsheet and the formula and the detail thing and I want to be told I present like kind of the macro Top Line your net fulfillment is an operation of your wealth health and time and I leave it to the crowd to go and be like I built this kickass spreadsheet so let me throw out my version which is not yet a spreadsheet Che but you have this formula where you're like okay your survival threshold is how much it's going to cost you to live one year times the number of years left to live and then deduct 70% because that money will grow and you can withdraw from it so what I'm doing in my head is okay assuming you can make money at some point you'll stop being able to make money and then you'll live for some number of years let's call that number 20 okay so you've live for 20 years how much does it cost you to live in one year I think everyone always estimates the highest amount it could ever cost you and I'm going to use your standpoint of like actually estimate low cuz many people end up saving more than they think and spending less so it doesn't make sense to go to the extremes so let's say for the sake of math you need $50,000 to live in your old age for 20 years times 7 that's $700,000 which might seem like a lot but if you have your whole life to save that $700,000 and let it grow in compound I guess that would be a number that once you've saved an amount of money that by the time you're let's call it 65 you will have that you could stop saving effectively I didn't even include Social Security and all these other things it's not necessarily you can stop saving for survival now it's maybe you want to go on some big expensive trip when you're 75 now we can start talking about our enjoyment the things that fulfill us besides surviving we can solve for thriving so you could decide I want to equally distribute my enjoyment of Life over my life and then your goal is as long as you're putting aside enough to get to 700,000 by the time you're 65 well then every year you could just spend all the excess on enjoyment and you'd be fine what that wouldn't let you do is maybe you want to take this crazy giant adventure when you're 45 or 50 you might want to save for that but it made me think that if you've already saved enough that 30 40 years from now it'll grow to be enough to survive in retirement all of the excess you can maybe even think of as a separate bucket for enjoying life how do I want to distribute it and separate your savings that's for living in retirement in a home being able to feed yourself there's that money and I think maybe one thing that I've never really thought of until I'm speaking it out loud right now is in my mind I'm saving one amount of money that's savings for the future but if we separated it out and said okay well here's how much you've saved and like let's set that aside cuz you need it to live now the rest is all money you can spend however you want and you need to make sure that balance also goes to zero like the other one's probably going to go to zero because you're going to spend it in retirement but that one needs to go to zero correct and that's what I do in the book If separating it out makes it easier for you to figure out what experiences do I bring forward or which money and spend now and what do I push back in terms of just the fun bucket my life is covered let's just say you had the best pension ever now it's just like we where do I spend the money so like you've covered your pension that covers your survival now it's like what fulfills you and when's the best time to consume those experiences that fulfill you and it's probably not when you're retired for 99. 999 many NES of people it's ABS [ __ ] lutely not yeah and particularly for Americans because we don't have the health for the activity if I went to the Japanese I would say the curves are distinctly different in Japan than they are in America because when you go to Japan you'll see 80s and 90s all shopping hanging out cleaning doing whatever like having this very active life hiking doing whatever all kinds of consumption they're like yeah I'm going to travel I'm going to go to Australia and they' be like whoa wait what you're 85 traveling by yourself going to Australia they can actually consume it for most America no shot I've seen it so many people die on cruise ships getting out and trying to go swimming on the warm water having heart attacks and stuff like that it's amazing when you watch it in real life like if you just observe it I'm not saying I was out there with a lab coat watching people Etc but I've

### Segment 13 (60:00 - 65:00) [1:00:00]

seen so many senior geared entertainment activities where it's really not that active I love this idea of creating a bucket that is your pension and then the rest you decide how you spend over your life and if that number is not decreasing it sounds like by the time you're 55 non-pension side of it you're probably doing something wrong or you figured out how to live much longer than I'm aware is possible you either have kind of like a abnormal time bucket where there's some sort of activity in the future that costs a lot of money and that can happen you can be like I really love super yacht cruises and this is what I'm saving for and that's really going to fulfill me the most I don't really care about anything I really want to just play chess because my mental acuity is really stronger now and you're going to be better at chess now and I want to win tournaments and I just want to play chess tournaments and then I want to go on yacht trips later and so you can be like okay maybe you're not consuming the most money now but by and large the rule is it's now or it's a mistake you're completely [ __ ] it up you're doing life wrong and it's not just that it's now it's that now benefits you I want to recap what we talked about earlier like doing it now will also benefit you later yeah it benefits your future self cuz your future self reaps the memory dividends things you did in high school the college the trips you had the honeymoon you had the adventure you took the business you started and failed succeeded like all those things right now you are reaping the dividends right now and as I'm talking there's probably people in the audience oh yeah remember that they're like filled right they were getting the same endorphins Etc a piece of that fulfillment as actually doing the activity my favorite thing on this is the Coke Pepsi experiment do you know about this one that Pepsi tends to win in a blind taste test but people you know Coke destroys them and it's because when you consume a Coke you consume not only the Coke but all the memories and the advertising associated with it cuz it was more advertised and they've done this with fmri you literally consume the experiences when you have a Coke your prior experiences you literally are getting memory dividends from the commercial and the advertising and the feel good and have a Coke and a smile and all that stuff the years and years of that in your brain is unlocked when you consume a Coke and you know it's a Coke same thing happens with every s activity you have is like you access and partially relive every single experience that you have when you recall it and so I always say positive life experiences one of your memory dividend enhancements was like reunions with the people you enjoyed the memories with and I went on this crazy trip to Australia once where we basically had a bunch of money that we had to spend in seven days and so it was just kind of a wild fun time and every time I hang out with my friend who we went on this trip with it's not 100% we were there but it's not zero I feel like we have a society where there were lots of family reunions because families are way more distributed that kind of goes down and my wife and I have been talking about whether we have like I don't know what you call this like we have a second wedding where you just invite all of your best friends it's like what you did for your birthday invite all the people you care about on some regular Cadence get to really relive those memories and get all this value and you don't even have to do the things again it's not a cultural thing to have friends reunions but I think we should I was just joking recently like these dates on the calendars these events are just excuses for us to throw parties and see each other and somebody also just said to me work is something we do so we have an excuse to hang out with each other that was pretty powerful and that's true to a certain extent that's the people that I love my job well you really love the people I think that's a lot why people I know in the last few years being home and not seeing them they're like I hate my job it's like well maybe you don't hate your job maybe it's just the thing that you thought you loved was your job and you actually just love the people you're around all the time and if you're not around them or you're just only seeing them on a screen or something and you don't have that social stuff it feels different I encourage people to deconstruct what is it about the job you love and has a job replaced other muscles have you atrii your social muscle to go meet people and hang out and have dinner and go out to lunch with people because work is the only place that you did these things and so the thing you loved was oh wow I let work consume everything like I don't take vacations I don't do walks in Parks I'm not really to the extent that I would like to do and I've let work take it all over it's how I met my spouse or my significant other it's where I go figure out to go eat it's where most of my dinner is going out on the town or business dinners or whatever where I go to lunch is usually close to work etc and those things are enjoyable but it's not the work it's I like going to lunch with people I like camaraderie I like seeing these people I like going to fancy dinners and stuff like that when people retire or quit these jobs sitting remote they're like [ __ ] I don't know what to do with myself and I'm like it's because you've atrophied all these other muscles and you put all your time into habituating yourself and to being very good at this thing and this thing has been your whole life your whole world but it doesn't mean that's the optimal place for you to

### Segment 14 (65:00 - 70:00) [1:05:00]

build social relationships to find a mate to pick dinner spots to pick lunch spots it just became the default autopilot thing to do I've spent a bunch of time talking to people in the financial Independence Movement people who are let's save all the money we can let's spend nothing so that we can be financially free some want to retire early some just want independence what's your take on fire I have a couple takes the things I like about it and I think I absolutely hate the thing I like about it is the fire movement forces you to be aware of the concept of enough it forces you to get on autopilot what things are important to me what am I consuming because I really enjoy it and fulfills me what am I consuming just to consume it like advertising and I'm on some sort of consumption autopilot it really gets them to think about their lives into totality what the things that they really want to be doing like I really want to do this for the rest of my life my life and they use fire as a tool to get that things I hate about fire one is they all follow this model of I'm going to work work I'm going to save up this money and I'm going to live off the interest and I'm like what about the [ __ ] principal you got to spend down the principal it's all about not giving your life away to money but having an enjoyable life but like you're giving your life away to money that you're never going to spend down so they need to readjust their formulas to include spending down the principal okay two at the extreme these guys are doing a version of autopilot and making a fatal era of not paying attention to time bucketing and the power of memory dividends they are basically doing a version of I'm going to go to jail for 7even years or 10 years in order to be free and have a great life from 40 on or whatever their retirement age is going back to my original statement there's no amount of money you can pay me to do five years in Sing well these guys are doing 10 12 year stints in sing and there are certain activities certain expenditures that you should be having that only fit in that 30 to 45 bucket they're giving that up unconsciously for some future shangrala and then they get to the Future shangra LA and I'm not saying it's not great but like [ __ ] I really regret not doing X Y and Z or I should have done this when grandmother was alive my kids were young and we should have went to Disney World instead of saving money to go on an extra trip now at the extreme fire is another version of autopilot it's not really correctly solving for net fulfillment and there needs to be some adjustments somewhere in the middle between the fire autopilot and the standard American autopilot is probably optimal yeah it's definitely great it's just like okay these are people who like they got the spreadsheet they're in touch with what they want they know the concept enough and I'm like guys why are you not spending down a principal this is craziness you're trying to get the most out of life but you exchanged 10 years of your life for something that you're never going to consume you're just going to consume the drips and drabs of it is that like the 2% rule I'm making it up but it's like if you could live off the interest at 4% forever what would you need to just not you spend it all what I tell these people is that basically you're overworking you're giving it up extra two or three years of your life because you're not including spending down the principal they're overshooting the main thing is though that autopilot really leads to Future regret with certain EXP experiences if they're not really conscious about what experiences belong when you didn't mention one criticism that I have which is it assumes often at least with the retire early side that once you stop working you don't make money and I think most people I'm sure there are exceptions but most people can't just do nothing for 50 years especially when those years are in your 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s so I think if you assume you're not going to work at all then you need so much money but if you assume maybe you could work some then it changes the calculus wildly like you go from needing millions and millions of dollars to maybe even hundreds of thousands of dollars yeah the sledgehammer of fire in our culture is probably more needed than not the sledgehammer of fire because we have so many people just needlessly attached to things that don't serve them that they don't even really want but there's plenty of criticism the fires autopilot and that sledgehammer and that kind of militant I'm going to save for this and whatever there's these assumptions in there that are not true you pointed out that yeah you're probably going to work or have a side hustle or sell your art that you're going to make or whatever there'll be some form of income that you could have or you will have not everybody somebody's going be like not me I'm going backpacking and I'm not making a dime okay you're that guy there is a version of autopilot and fire and it's dangerous because I'm talking about wasting your life and when you say I'm going to grind not consume not go anywhere for 10 years I'm like that's a lot of [ __ ] life yeah or 15 years to

### Segment 15 (70:00 - 75:00) [1:10:00]

be giving away that's extremely dangerous in the net fulfillment game in the not waste your life game I'm much more comfortable with if there was a way to reframe it as like you need this much money to experiment with financial Independence for a period of time which is like maybe change your job to a job that pays less that gives you the time you want but that number is so much smaller that you don't need to save it by giving up everything so I'm going to challenge anyone in the audience and email me just Chris at all the hacks if anyone wants to try to like build a model or a framework or something to try to create this Middle Ground I want to see it I want to get in the spreadsheet I want to build the model with you and see if we could do it you have to take an individualistic approach though the problem was like building a spreadsheet for just the masses is that everyone is different and everybody has different things that fulfill which means they're always going to have different spend curves and different needs and you'll be like yeah the thing you want you really need to just bust your ass for two years and get it right because there's this step function and cost like the only thing I want is a trip to Mars and that ticket cost $225,000 well okay there's no half going to Mars you have to get the $225,000 or whatever the price is I'm making that up but if it's like I like roller skating and I like hanging out with my kids and I like whatever and then there's some Middle Ground you can still roller skate let's go roller skating now you don't have to save up all the money to go roll skating 10 years from now as a matter of fact daughter is probably not going to go roll skating with 10 years from now she's got to have her own life and her own things so let's optimize for that thing that fulfills you can build a model spreadsheet for kind of like the average person which there's no such thing as the average person but it's very like this is me I've built out this spreadsheet and I think the beauty of that spreadsheet that somebody builds out is not the actual formulas that I'll be able to copy and paste to my life but the methodology of their thinking it's the model that is the most powerful thing you want the method of thinking like how do I think about this problem what variables do I consider I think the thing we might be able to build pretty easily so in the wealth front app there's this idea of an Fu number we call it the financial Utopia number but the idea is once you have this amount of money you could stop working and the number that I want to build a simple calculator for is kind of like the pension number where it's like once you've started saving X you've solved for the money you need to live in retirement it's not about stopping working it's about starting to realize you now have crossed over a threshold of being on track to pay for life in retirement basic needs that you're now at a point where you can start to allocate your excess you could allocate it now in the future but I imagine that for many people getting to the point that they're like just maxing out their 401K gets them to that point like if you max out your 401K for your whole life and I haven't done the math but maybe you have solved for retirement basic needs and now you're at a point that you can figure out what to do with all of your excess each month sure you could save it so you can spend it in your 50s 30s you could spend it in your 70s but at least coming up with a framework to help people understand because in the wealth app we say okay this is your financial Utopia number your Fu number but it might be $5 million because if you're 30 it's the amount of money you need today to never work again and keep spending what you spend today but I don't know if that's helpful I think it would be more helpful to have a number that is here is how much money you need to have saved to have retirement solved and now all the excess that you save each month you can spend that simple thing might be Universal obviously it would need variables of how much you need to spend in retirement I think it helps get the concept across I would say that it's not optimal to front load you're saving for retirement and then go say the rest of the money I make is for goofing off and allocating it I think getting the concept across and people freeing their mind and like holy [ __ ] this money is for fun and when do I want to have fun and I'm going to allocate the fun at the right times in my life is powerful what I would say is that you don't work two years for retirement and then start spending spun you work some for retirement and some goes to fun some enironment and it gets there at a certain point particularly because of time bucketing and the fact that certain experiences belong then and if you take that money and if you don't have that experience in this time period you never have that experience and that leads to Future regret and less fulfillment and so it is not optimal the frontload retirement May self some sort of fear in you but to get the concept across I think most of your audience is like they really have retirement covered right they really have their survival number covered so if they could separate that out maybe some of the young people don't but if you can separate that out and think okay I'm putting this into a retirement bucket I'm on track to hit retirement how do I spend my fund money and how do I allocate that throughout my life I think it's better than nothing because it's mainly getting that concept across it's the way of thinking I want it to sink in I wrote the book not as like some sort of economics book or physics book or calculus book The reason why the book has stories in it is because you have to get past people's

### Segment 16 (75:00 - 80:00) [1:15:00]

habits and egos there's a reason why the book starts out with a death a premature death it's because immediately your ego disappears and you think yeah I'm going to die how am I going to allocate the hour of my life how am I going to spend the money even though my life is longer and this guy was two years we have the same problem and the reason why we go over objections is to get it in a way to get past your ego the habits that you're form so that you actually execute on these ideas build on these ideas to have a more fulfilling life you probably heard me say I'm out here trying to save people's lives and a lot of times people are like the [ __ ] are you talking about Perkins save people's lives you wrote a goddamn book about optimizing and N fulfillment and I use this example of listen when you pull somebody drowning in a pool they're drowning and you pull them out you give them mouth the mouth and get the water out or whatever and they're like oh my God you saved my life I'm like guess what they're still going to [ __ ] die they're just not going to die that day they're still going to die 100% so what have you given them you've given them more choices more time more experience more I love yous more going to the Opera more hanging out with their grandmother you're giving them more of their life more experience to have and then they ultimately die and so with this book when I get you to optimize from net fulfillment I'm giving you more choices more trips with Grandma more going to the Opera more Charities more ski trips it's the same thing in my mind I'm just going to go with that so I'm like a fanatic when it comes to this because I truly believe that when you optimize your life that much just the same way you optimize by Saving you get more trips and more life that I'm saving people's lives I've started putting some of this into place my wife and I actually had a conversation about money my wife was like oh we should try to hit this goal and then I was like no no I've been reading this book why are we even trying to hit a higher goal what is it even for and now we're like no we actually have a new net worth goal and it's down yeah it might be that conversation is a great one to have because she might pull something out because this is the trip I want to go on and it's like this big expensive thing or I want to fly around in a G650 or whatever it is you be like okay at least we've attached what we're working for a lot of people forget what they're working for if you ask them they'll just regurgitate the autopilot answer to get more money to the thing or whatever because it's like no stop stop you're going to work and they're going to give you money what's the money for why do you need more money what can you not afford that you need to work for in order to consume and then we have a real conversation she would be the first to admit she was just on this path of accumulate she hadn't taken the pause to think about it and then when we did it clicked and the conversation was totally different I still think we need to figure out what we want to do with money and savings and spending and when we want to do it but I think we've both now been like we're off the let's just rack up money like that is no longer a goal so thank you I'm going to hit a point because a lot of people are probably thinking well there's nothing I want to do they're listening to this and they I don't want to do anything else and the reason why you is because you've been a rat on a wheel you haven't been exercising those muscles you don't know how to play anymore you forgot you do one are things they're just buried so deep under all these routines you built to acquiring money and those muscles are so atrophied it's like you haven't gone the gym for 5 years and you come in you try and lift 225 lbs it's not happening you need to build up into it you need to start small and be like okay let me think about these things I want to do I really like that let me just go out and discover because life is Discovery you don't necessarily know everything you want to do you have to go out and be exposed to it but you have only been exposed to work and making more money and climbing the career ladder and doing more deals and solving this puzzle that you've been solving that you've been addicted for and you haven't been working on the what fulfills me what trips do I like what experience do I have how would I spend money if I had it you don't even think about those things and so it takes time don't be discouraged you're not going to like just show up in the gym once and get in shape overnight you're not going to just quit your job and know exactly what you want to do overnight you have to build yourself back up you have to get back in touch and don't get discouraged if I quit completely doing trading and I think about this all I would be wow I got a lot of time I don't know what to do and you get in this Panic oh I got to go back to work you just got thrown into the water and you forgot how to swim you're like calm down float for a little bit do a little stroke you'll get there then you'll have the more fulfilling life awesome got a couple random things totally separate that I think maybe tie in maybe don't okay before we wrap one I want to just get your take you're an Optimizer you wrote a book about optimizing me too talk me through a few things that I just need someone like you to tell me why I'm being crazy I think one of the challenges I have with both

### Segment 17 (80:00 - 85:00) [1:20:00]

money and you made a joke about a person that's accumulated millions of miles that's me and one of my challenges with using money miles currency anything is that I'm aware of how much more optimal it could be used I know that if I really find the right trip 500,000 mil will take the whole family around the world but if I book it today for the thing I want it's a million and I struggle or we were talking about the holidays this year we're like we have time off we don't have plans but wow it's four times more expensive to go on any vacation at the end of December than it is in January we don't have the time off in January so we're not actually going to do that but in my mind it's like punt cuz it's an inop imal use of that money my main thing for you is you're solving for Max flyer miles and you're not solving for Max fulfillment yeah and so what you don't realize is that Max fulfillment for you cost this much and that's just the cost so there's a time period where it belongs and this is the optimal time for it to happen and this is the purchase price and you're like but I can do the trip at a suboptimal time at less fulfillment for 500,000 miles and I'm like you can do that but realize that you're solving for spending less miles and not solving for Max fulfillment if you're the type of guy that when you look back on your death bed you would be like wow I saved all these goddamn miles as opposed to holy [ __ ] I [ __ ] up my fulfillment in this time period when my kids were this age when it was time for me to doing this and I misallocated my time then go ahead and solve for miles or money in that case also yeah money miles whatever it is you're solving for you're optimizing for miles and I'm like listen fulfillment first mile second there's going to be some blend but the maximum fulfillment is what we're solving for and so sometimes you're going to have to vaporize the miles cuz that's what it costs and then low and behold the airlines know this they know that like in Western culture these holidays this is when people want to fulfill their lives Etc so we get to charge more for fulfillment and when kids are like in finals Etc there's no family trips Etc so we can charge less they know this is the cost of fulfillment like everything costs and you're like no no I want to just have the lowest costs and I'm like no I want to have the highest fulfillment so if you get back on I'm solving for Max fulfillment with my family I think you'll become less detached on the value of the conversion of the points for certain activities maybe the answer is sit down and say look we have two choices and in the next X hours days whatever we're going to pick one either we actually do commit and we go book the trip in January when it's better I'm not saying punt years I'm saying either you say look we're just going to find a way to make it work at a lower price or we're just going to pay the price to go when it's convenient but not let ourselves escape the decision I think that's the thing it's like you either pay up because you want the fulfill or you adjust life to make it work at a better price as long as you don't not take the experience to me it's like trip here trip here trip here what is the most fulfilling is it worth it what is gives me the net fulfillment it might be not the January it might be trip here and another trip and two trips and since they're in the same time bucket that's actually more fulfillment two different environments Etc there's going to be a lot of variables like we get off the chalkboard I go over with you and I'm like are you really going to take two trips yeah I'm and that's a million miles for two trips but it's not over Christmas how do you feel about the Fulfillment score let's put a fulfillment score on each trip okay it seems to add up more than the trip over Christmas are we sure about that yeah we're sure about that we're not sure about that we'd go through this whole exercise with your wife and talk about it and then we'd come to a decision and then we would make the right decision knowing that we solve for net fulfillment not miles the miles was an input just like wealth health and time right so miles is kind of in the wealth bucket that was an input to solve for net fulfillment and we slid it back and forth in time like all right two trips not Christmas actually is better we'll hang out at home and play board games and then go on two trips I look forward to sending you a note saying we took the trip the two trips or the three trips the two trips right whatever it works out to be or trip in a half or a trip plus an upgrade these are the things that I don't have the right answer because the inputs matter the most but like the mental model is there like you're thinking about it the other thing I want to touch on his health so it seems like one of the biggest opportunities to unlock a lot of this equation is to be healthy or live longer you talked about how in Japan people are just as a society that I know you've spent a lot of time with some of these great doctors are there things that someone listening who doesn't get a chance to talk to petera or something on a regular basis is there stuff you've learned whether it's test to consider doing now or ways you've changed your diet or your health that people could do to improve or extend the time that they can do more active things and I guess

### Segment 18 (85:00 - 90:00) [1:25:00]

live longer or I think I pay a lot for the last 15% like 85% even the fanciest doctors it's all low hanging fruit and the lowest hanging fruit is like hey do an activity that makes you sweat for 4 hours a week maintain your weight try not to consume added sugar reduce all your sugars and your sugar intake no alcohol don't smoke like the super low hanging fruit about not being overweight staying in shape not consuming added sugars like sugar is the worst and exercise even if it's hiking walking 3 mil a day or 3 miles four times a week or something like that that's amazing loow hanging fruit to make your current experien is better and your future experience is better because activity by health is the Fulfillment and if your health is shitty either you don't get to do the activity or the activity is not as enjoyable I used to walk like 7 to 12 miles around Paris when I was there just with a backpack on now I can maybe do six or five before I'm like my knee's kind of hurt I don't like it anymore so I got more of Paris on a trip for the same dollar than I do now and the more in shape I am the less overweight weight I'm carrying and force I'm hitting into my knees the more enjoyable every single activity is I would argue and say to people like that lwh hanging fruit has such a huge yield on your fulfillment whether you're going to be able to enjoy playing with your kids relatives or be around or even enjoy getting on a plane Etc later on in life is highly correlated and highly dependent on the state of your health right now I can't emphasize it enough it's not a health book I'm like listen there are tons of books podcasts motivational speakers Etc on like how to be healthy and I just say this vertical is Uber important make sure you addressed it try and do activities that fulfill you irrespective of the health benefits and one of the ones I found is hiking like going hiking with a friend I get a great experience talking with them seeing nature discovering what's around me and it's also has these health benefits cardio benefits strength legs Etc that make future experiences better so I get a double whammy yeah not overeating not doing X Y and Z try and develop the habits that lead you to the goal because your motivation goes up and down so develop these habits get rid of the snacks make them move far away don't even buy them then you can't get to him you said If you're looking at a cookie just be like is this cookie worth an hour on the treadmill that's the way I do it I convert all these things into like time so resources that I'm fighting for which I think at the end of the day everybody's fighting for they want free time they want time to do what they want more time on the planet and so if I'm trying to maintain my health and my weight is very important to my future enjoyment my knees Etc like is that cookie worth an hour on the treadmill sometimes a cookie is actually worth an hour on a treadmill if it's a nice good chocolate chip cookie I will go on the treadmill for these cookies and sometimes it's no what if I push you since you said you'd answer anything like to peel back some of that 15% that you've learned that I might not know I think Diagnostics is the key many diseases ailments and their progression are thwarted if you find them early enough some of the cancers that are like always fatal if they had a test for it and they found it early You'd Survive Heart Diagnostics MRI somebody once sent to me you should be spending 10% of your income on your health I was like that's [ __ ] crazy I have a pretty high income then I thought about it and I was like no that includes like Diet whether I buy prepackaged meals or have a chef that includes doctors diagnosis Etc health plans and I was like it's actually low yeah it's actually low it's so important and so a lot of the secret sauce of these doctors is you know every quarter they come in and they draw like 32 36 vials of blood this is your mineral absorption this is SE and C this is your thyroid is doing and this is whatever and here's all the metrics and you're kind of out over here like you need to do edw and here's your cholesterol and these things that preventative ounce oftion is worth a pound of cure that is the key Y and the prescription of like you need to be doing more cardio or you need to do this or you should be avoiding these Foods because they inflame you and inflammation is death so Diagnostics one of the companies that I partner with on the show is called insid tracker and they do 43 biomarker paired with genetic testing to give you an analysis of both like different biomarkers and what that means what your optimal range is adjusted for your genetics and like what your inner age is which is like looking at all the biomarkers and where you should be are you like ahead or behind so that's one thing that's a little more accessible I know there's some Grail tests for early cancer detection I know there's pruvo which is like the full body MRI so I'll punt on pushing on the 15% and I'm just going to go find a doctor who I've met and we're going to go deeper on this yeah you do the MRI you look at your tele mirors they're like oh you could do a hyperbaric chamber like one of the

### Segment 19 (90:00 - 95:00) [1:30:00]

things you can do to that is out of Israeli studies I'll go into one of The Cutting Edge but painting ass things okay that I actually sto doing you can go to hyperbaric chamber for 2 hours and in theory it lengthens your Tel miror at it makes you younger at the cellular level wow which means in theory you know you're going to live longer cuz your organs are not going to break down at the time they're you're going to get some extension on your telr and has all these other therapeutic supposed properties so I'd have to go drive an hour to the hyperbaric chamber I was going to run the same experiment that the Israelis did so you have to do X months of hyperbaric chambers whatever it is it's a lot but the place I had to go to was an hour away you go dive down you dive to pressure so it takes a while to get the pressure then you stay at pressure for an hour or whatever the time frame is and then you have to come out and then I got to drive an hour back and I was like okay I'm going to get X benefit and live longer this time frame but I'm wasting 3 to 4 hours a day traveling to this hyperbaric chamber back and forth and I was just like nope not worth it I'll die earlier you know what I mean I'll die a year earlier or whatever it is time is too valuable to me right now in this time bucket so that's one hyperbaric chambers but might not be worth it no it's not I mean if I had a hyperbaric chamber in my house and I could just like do it when I sleep I'd be like I would 100% do it but that mute to the facility was just absolutely crushing me yeah I feel that way about cold plunge and sauna to the extent that it's like I should just get one and put it outside the sauna there's data on the health benefits yeah the cold the studies aren't there may be benefits and people are raving about the benefits but the research isn't there sauna is definitely confers health benefits longevity less chance of a heart attack yada yada the sauna is a hack there's all these like other hacks that are out there that's the show so I'm going to totally pack the sauna hyperbaric chamber might not be worth it but it's out there full Diagnostics MRI is those 3D colon scanners where they actually scan your whole body there's latest and greatest imaging technology Etc where you know they're going to scan you and be like oh you got too much visceral fat you got this I remember when I went there and they were like do you smoke and I was like no he's like yeah I can tell when I look at your liver I can tell what you do they can tell my habits based on looking at my insides wow and I was like okay I like this I just wrote a newsletter about fsas and hsas so one cool hack to compound it is you can put pre-tax money in from your employer and then use that for some of these health things that aren't covered by Insurance we've done that for lasic for IVF for blood tests all that kind of stuff but yeah the last thing I want to jump on is every time I talk to someone I let them pick a place that they're pretty familiar with in the world and tell people that are headed there how to have a great day there whether it's doing drinking dining anything so pick a place I'm going to pick St Barts so one get prepared to spend money not a cheap Island you can do it cheap I'm sure you'll hack away and find the great airon BNB on a discount on a so and so or be a room reviewer or something like that gets you down there cheap but let's say you get down there St Barts is what I think the perfect match of beauty and environment and commerce and fun I would recommend either staying on flamon beach flamon or grand culdesac barom or at Eden Rock the main thing is the food so you want to go get yourself a little mooch car or something that's a convertible when you rent a car and make sure you drive around the island it's not that far to you can drive a little bit and check out little areas you want to go to visit all the beaches I think Governor Beach is probably the best beach in the world or one of the best beaches in the world but I also enjoy sine Beach going and CAC all these places eating along the beach and just checking the vibe and hanging out is amazing at Shell Beach there's a restaurant there you definitely want to have lunch there there's lat tamaran which is like kind of in this Garden at night you definitely want to eat there I would say more for dinner than lunch there's always going to be a party somewhere someplace so in gustavia walking around and shopping there's Nikki Beach there's a hotels there's kite surfing there's lounging I would say definitely visit the other hotels and have lunch on the beach like that's good places and then go check out the little shops a lot of it is vibing and hiking and driving around and just finding little places and enjoying the nicest of the French culture because the French are known for being rude but in St Barts it's the nicest of the French it's competitive to come work there and come be there so you don't get the rude French you get the nice French and you get French cuisine which is amazing it's very good and you get a beautiful island and crystal clear water and great beaches and wind surfing and paddle surfing and sewing away Turtles and

### Segment 20 (95:00 - 97:00) [1:35:00]

things like that and then you get to drive this island that has different climates where it has a dry side and a wet side and there's all kinds of little experiences you can have in the island life way I'm ready to go it's developed enough but not overdeveloped that's what I would say and that's the beauty of St parts and it's clean and it's safe sounds fantastic biggest drawback to St Barts is it's expensive well there's a time for expensive trips save for it budget it spend the money on the trip don't die with it I think that's my takeaway yeah that's your takeaway like any partying advice or places people should head to check you out where you're working online I use Instagram and Instagram stories is kind of like my own life diary going back to that hack how can you use the memory dividend I use my stories as my memory dividend they save to my phone and get backed up to Google cloud and then you know it will show like on this day and I'll have all these little Snippets and videos of like what happened on this trip or what I did so I am Bill Perkins on Instagram you can follow me sometimes it's just me and my cat doing nothing exciting but sometimes it's exciting if you want hot takes or chaos you can follow me on Twitter at vp22 on Twitter I don't recommend it sometimes it's Market sometimes it's Finance advice sometimes it's hot political takes I'm a Libertarian so everybody hates me left the right sometimes it's just goofing off if you're in for the chaos it's a format that I like where can actually interact with people enough touch them Etc so I love Twitter too much but dzer book. com dzer book we talk where all where books are sold everywhere it's on audio book it you can listen to it you can read it everywhere dizer book. com you can go there it'll list the languages that it's sold so it's in Spanish it's in Polish it's in Chinese it's in German it's in Japanese and actually the book is most successful in Japan that's awesome the book is everywhere that's what I mean to say I have the book I recommend the book it's had a huge impact on me thanks for writing it thank you for being here I'm glad to be here thanks for hearing me blather I'm always down the blather again if you want I really hope you enjoyed this episode thank you so much for listening if you haven't already left a rating and a review for the show in apple podcast or Spotify I would really appreciate it and if you have any feedback on the show questions for me or just want to say hi I'm Chris allthe hacks. com or Hutchin on Twitter that's it for this week I'll see you next week