# 198. Rethinking Conferences with Productized Curators Radhika Dutt and Ricardo Luiz ## Метаданные - **Канал:** Productized - **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg - **Дата:** 12.05.2026 - **Длительность:** 1:07:47 - **Просмотры:** 21 ## Описание This episode features a deep conversation with conference curators Radhika Dutt and Ricardo Luiz about the art of conference curation, product thinking, and building communities. They share insights on vision-driven events, the importance of reflection, and the future of product conferences. conference curation, product thinking, community building, vision-driven events, product management, reflection, conference planning, community of practice Conference curation as a reflection of product vision The importance of community and genuine conversations Challenges in curating diverse and impactful lineups The role of reflection and sharing learnings post-conference Future of product conferences in a fast-changing world Radhika Dutt and Ricardo Luiz Beyond the Build: Rethinking Product Conferences and Community - The Art of Conference Curation: Insights from Radhika Dutt and Ricardo Luiz "Conference cliches that waste time" "A cohesive theme moves the industry" "LLMs focus on knowns, not unknowns" Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Beyond the Build 01:49 The Importance of Learning at Conferences 05:00 Curating a Conference: The Challenges 06:14 The Role of Thoughtful Talks 09:33 Rethinking Product Management 17:04 The Shift in Product Development 20:33 Creating a Cohesive Conference Lineup 24:28 Curatorial Decisions and Challenges 28:48 The Community Aspect of Conferences 31:11 Exploring AI in Product Management 35:47 The Importance of Understanding Before Building 39:00 Innovative Workshop Approaches 39:48 The Human Element in Collaboration 46:11 The Relevance of Conferences in a Fast-Paced World 54:48 Creating Lasting Impact at Productized 2026 Resources Radical Product Thinking Book by Radhika Dutt - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B8V4V4X4 Produtize Conference - https://produtize.com Impact First Product Teams by Matt LeMay - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09V4V4X4 Radical Product Thinking (book and movement) by Radhika Dutt - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B8V4V4X4 Guests LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/radhika-dutt/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/uxluiz/ ## Содержание ### [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg) Introduction to Beyond the Build Hello, it's time to shake things up and today we're shaking it up in a very particular way. Welcome to season 20 of the Productized podcast. I am Nuri Maki. I'm going to be your host today and this is going to be more of a conversation because this season is all about beyond the build, the work that happens after the product ships, after the slide deck ends, after the applause fades, the messy human relational work of driving real change. And if you are a practitioner, you know this is really where it gets gritty. And today we're going to be full meta because instead of talking to a speaker about how they create change, I'm sitting down with two people who helped to decide what this conference is even about, the curators of Productized conference. And Productized conference 2026, my first guest is Radhika Dutt. Radhika is the author of Radical Product Thinking book. Which is actually more of a book is a move is movement builder. She is also an MIT engineer, four-time acquisition veteran, and an advisor to governments and startups alike. She's also speaking nine different languages, which is mind-blowing. And I find that both impressive and slightly intimidating. My second guest is Ricardo. For some reason Ricardo has not shown to the episode yet. Maybe he has some kind of personal issue, but we'll just pretend he's in the room for a while. ### [1:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=109s) The Importance of Learning at Conferences And if he gets to join the episode, that'll be great. Otherwise, Radhika, welcome. Let's talk about what it's really like to build a conference together. Thanks for having me here, Andre. And I love how authentic this podcast is. You know, Ricardo isn't here and we go like, "Oh, well, you know, we're just going to get started. " And our listeners get a sneak peek into that. Yeah, that's that would probably be the case anyways, right? You get started with someone that you end up defaulting to another person. Let's see if he ends up showing to the podcast. All right. So, before we get into the serious stuff and we will get into more serious stuff, don't worry. Let's just warm up a little bit. A quick rapid-fire round. First answer that comes to mind. Ready? Let's try this. Okay. What's one word that describes what a great conference makes you feel? Ready, go. Learning was the first thing that came to mind. But, when I say learning, I really mean both in terms of things that are thought-provoking, but I mean the people around. You know, the deeper conversations. I find that so much of what I love about Productized is also the learning from other people. All right. So, what's the worst conference cliché you never want to see on a Productized stage? Now that you have helped curate the entire stage dynamic for this year. The worst case is when it feels like, "Ugh, this was just a waste of time to listen to. I cannot wait to get out of my seat and just stretch my legs, right? " And — the worst conference cliché words? Like those words that really trigger you when you hear them? Mhm. Trend. I see a lot of people have come to me and they talk about strategy as a super loaded word or But, yeah, trends. Why trend, by the way? Cuz, you know, sometimes I feel like there are conferences that focus on a fad. That promote an idea that sounds good, but that hasn't really been curated in terms of thinking through it and seeing like does this actually make sense to do? And I'll give you an example, this idea of founder mode. Founder mode is one concept, a trend that drives me nuts because it's basically a repackaged version of micromanagement and saying, "Hey, micromanagement is fantastic. " And then there's a whole trend where people make it seem like, "Oh, you know, we should all be founder mode. " Right? And when that sort of a cliche is brought into a conference without that curation and thought process as to is this really a good idea? It's one thing to be thought-provoking, it's another thing to not think through it and throw out ideas that are just plain bad. Totally. Actually, founder mode for me has always had a very positive connotation, to be honest. I've never I was never super triggered about but I never thought about it in the micromanagement way. Although it makes a lot of sense that you also think about it that way. So, what's the last All ### [5:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=300s) Curating a Conference: The Challenges right, let before that, let's name one thing that absolutely cannot be missed from a great lineup, in your opinion. lineup. For me, that is really a cohesive theme, right? And a cohesive theme for me is a matter of something that really moves the industry forward, right? It's a set of talks that you listen to, that you reflect on, and you go like, "Okay, this leveled up what who I am as a product person. " Great. And finally, we have Ricardo with us. Hi, Ricardo. My apologies. Yeah, you're just joining when it's getting funnier and more interesting. Nice. Oh, our second guest is Ricardo Ruiz. So, has also been a curator for the Productized conference this year. Now, Ricardo is a product director. He's also a UX strategist by training, Productized stage veteran. He was with us a few years ago. Also has a masterclass facilitator and the kind of person who walks into a room and you would immediately feel the energy. Ricardo is based right here in Lisbon and has been part of this community longer than he probably cares ### [6:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=374s) The Role of Thoughtful Talks to admit because I think I I've been seeing you over and over the conference for the last few years, Ricardo. It's really nice to have you with us in the in the special meta podcast. So, we were asking, what's the last talk you saw that made you rethink something? The last something. Oh, wow. Interesting. Uh There's so many. I mean, the one that we saw together from the OutSystems founder at Upside. Yeah, that was interesting, but uh yeah, I think I heard Paul too many times before. Okay. Any anything else pops to your mind? It doesn't have to be flattering to anyone, right? It can just be something that oh, wow, I don't — recall and I don't care I'm not able to pinpoint it, but it was something around and I think it was two different um conversations and then and presentations that I saw um that made me think about exactly what we are at this moment where if building is so cheap Mhm. what is the biggest differentiator from people that are still in the product business, building products, building companies, and whatnot. And it in all of a sudden it became very clear that your biggest differentiator if you're still around in this area, it's your ability to think, your ability to reach out to people, to clearly understand the problem and the people that you're trying to touch. So, it's not about being able to to ship anymore cuz it's relevant, right? And Radhika and I were we were talking about that the other day when we were preparing some of the materials for the conference for how we would be MCing it in some of the moments, and we were almost like vibe talking about it, and it was super interesting to understand that yeah, right now the more you are empathetical and you understand people and you understand business and you can connect the two and you are stubborn enough to go after the big whys and understand the root cause of some of those things, then you can translate that into whatever the solution may look like, and then someone can ship it very quickly. You yourself can can ship something very quickly and can prototype it. But that's probably my aha moment. Do you remember who gave this talk? I I don't uh because I think it was a collection of moments throughout the last maybe 4 months that I saw very different people presenting, some people saying exactly this, not exactly by the same words, but grasping it, touching it, and then Radhika and I we were talking about it and it just all made sense together. And we're like, "Okay, so yeah, that seems to be a theme happening right now that everyone is realizing that building is okay, it's becoming cheaper, it's becoming less complex, it's becoming a bit lighter in terms of the weight in the road map. So, if everyone is able to ship and it's so cheap to do it, what is the biggest differentiator, right? Um and then it's okay, how well do you know your market? the people that are going to actually consume your product? And can ### [9:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=573s) Rethinking Product Management you delight them? Can you knock them out of their socks. It's basically. Um that's it. Really Connie, any talk comes to mind? Uh there were two talks that I listened to that I really uh haven't forgotten. And this was more than a year ago I listened to them. So, I guess they're highlights for me. So, one was a talk given by Sarah Gordon and uh she talked about Flow, which was a startup when she was there and then how it grew into um a unicorn. She You know, and it deals with women's fertility, period trackers, et cetera. Like topics that aren't often talked about in a conference in much detail in terms of like how they went about doing user research, understanding, et cetera. And so, that talk was so well done. I really loved it. The second talk that I think back to was the chief product officer of a dating app called Hinge. And she talked about how they were so thoughtful. I still have issues like I've played around with Hinge too because I was doing a lot of investigation on dating apps, right? — Yeah, sure. It's a great excuse. Why are you happy That's a whole different product. podcast, Andre. We can get into that. So, so I was looking at Hinge, right? And I still dislike a lot of the short-term decisions and how it actually works. But I loved the talk by the chief product officer. And you know, the main topic that I got from that was while people while apps like Tinder, OKCupid, et cetera were prioritizing user engagement and swipe left and right to maximize user engagement, the Hinge CPO believed that we have to slow people down. Like not just maximize user interaction user engagement for sheerly just the numbers game, but rather to get people to slow down, really look at someone's profile, and then make a thoughtful choice. Like do I want to connect with this person or not? And like how they very systematically went about changing people's minds. Like, you know, she was talking about how they were encouraging people to have little voice or video snippets there because that's how you get to know someone as opposed to just a picture. And there's so much chemistry in voice or video. And, you know, how people were unwilling to do that, how they changed minds very systematically. It was a vision-driven approach to building the product, at least in how she talked about it. Amazing. Yeah, so true. All right. So, yeah, to be honest, for me and on a personal note, so I started doing conferences with the TEDx format here in Portugal maybe just over 15 years ago or so, maybe more. Uh yeah, probably almost 20 years ago. And and old TED Talks, I think they had something Of course, it might be just not nostalgic speaking, but I think they had something that was really, really good, which was well, novelty for sure because they started with the 18-minute format and all that. And some of the talks, they really had the a demo vibe to it and people really uh enchanted to, you know, to the entire conversation. So, um yeah, lots I remember very fondly some of those uh talks. Uh not necessarily pinpointing anything uh specifically. But yeah. Uh one that changed my mind, very visionary one, was this guy talking about um the future of electrical cars back in 2004. So, this is a TED Talk from the back from 2004. And so, it has over 20 years and he was very clearly showing that the future for mobility was electrical vehicles, electrical cars, and so on and so forth. And that was a really an amazing talk that I still remember to this date. Oh. Conference snack here. Uh and here we're going to have a fight because it's either coffee, pastel de nata, or something else. Oh, pastel de nata for sure. — Yeah, I think we cannot miss it. So, we're going to have it at Productized this year. Don't worry. Anyone listening, we always have the best pastel de nata in town from Belém. And they are a partner this year, finally, after many, many years we actually got them as a partner. That's true. Love it. Uh so, we're going to have a plenty of pastel de nata in the morning for you to uh eat with your coffee. So, one-word verdicts on the Museum of Orient as a venue. I and I'm not super fearful uh Hadija because maybe you don't know the venue so well, but Ricardo, have you been there? I have been there. It's amazing, specially at this time of the year that we have so much sunlight still. Man, it's by the river. It's uh in one of the areas that if you go to the rooftop, like we are going to be in the rooftop, I'm sure, you have this amazing view from the other side of the river, which actually it's a view that most people don't get to know too much about in Lisbon. But you do see you see the sunset on the Tagus river uh going to the ocean. It's something of magic. — Ricardo, if UX Product don't work for you, real estate career is waiting. Real estate is waiting for her. Thank you. It sounds amazing, and I'm so looking forward to it. And for those listening who don't know what pastel de nata is, you have to know these are Portuguese egg tarts. And look, I don't eat sweets, but I make an exception for pastéis de nata. I remember there was one conference where I missed out on eating pastéis de nata in the morning, and I was so bummed. And then Francisco brought me one, and I literally jumped for joy. Great. All right. Then the next question is cinnamon non-cinnamon. Do you put cinnamon on top of it or no? No cinnamon. Okay. Not at all. — here. Never forget Portuguese traveled 10,000 mi to go to India just for cinnamon to put in their pastéis de nata. So, it's very important thing for us to get cinnamon in pastéis de nata. Yeah. All right. So, okay. So, now that we've probably warmed up and I've learned some things I didn't expect from you as well. Let's actually go behind the curtain. There is this assumption that conference organizers just they have this master plan, a clear vision, and we just execute it flawlessly. That, you know, we have the team in our hands from the beginning. But today we're going to either confirm or destroy that myth and probably destroy it. So, let's start from the early beginning, this creation journey, and let's set the scene. When we started thinking about the team, which is beyond the builds, and that's the team for 2026, what was the first reaction from each of you? Was it immediately obvious or did it take some time to convince you? Because now it's kind of in retrospect it kind of sounds obvious that beyond the build is, you know, just like Ricardo said, that the pace of build building is not an issue anymore. So, what's next? What's beyond the build? But when we started this discussion maybe almost nine eight months ago ### [17:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=1024s) The Shift in Product Development or more, this was maybe not so obvious. So, what what's your take on this one, Hadija? I can start. I mean, for me beyond the build was not obvious at all. I agree with you. But grew on me a lot because I do feel like this is the biggest shift that's happening at the moment that development is cheap. That because development is cheap, so many of the fundamentals that we have established in product management, you know, the importance of discovery, not just being tactical and building a bunch of features, all of that is suddenly being thrown out the window as if those fundamental first principles don't matter anymore, because hey, it's cheap to build. You know, everything that we said about being vision-driven is suddenly like doesn't matter. Just build a feature cuz it's so cheap to build it. Just vibe code it, throw it at the market. And then let's see what sticks. And the problem with this is that we're not realizing that there is a still a huge cost. It's not necessarily the cost in development, but the cost is still that you're risking putting a feature out there that overwhelms your customers because it's a shittily put together feature. And you're overwhelming them with a bunch of such features that you've built. So, all of the product diseases that I've talked about, strategic swelling, obsessive sales disorder, things like pivotitis, they're all just as valid today as they were in the past. And yet, our mindset has suddenly shifted that oh, building is easy, so we don't need product managers to think strategically anymore. And this is why I really liked Beyond the Build, that yes, now that build is cheap, now what? There is a shift. I'm not saying that product management doesn't change. Yes, there's an evolution, but how does it evolve? And the answer is not that product management is no longer relevant. It's just as relevant because those product diseases are just as relevant. Yeah, I agree with you. You also literally wrote the book on vision-driven product thinking. And when you look at the conference lineup, what's the equivalent of a product vision for you? What holds it together or falls apart? Does a lineup need a point of view? You kind of scratched this a little bit earlier in the into the conversation, but can you give your perspective a little bit deeper on this one? So, for me, the vision behind the lineup, and I'd actually love to hear your take on it, too. For me, the vision behind the lineup was, you know, how So, the problem statement is for all the product development people, this involves both the designers, product managers, product leaders, even people who are in engineering, but think product. Like, for all of those people, today when they want to learn, develop, build a community of thoughtful people, how do you go about doing that? And I find that really hard in conferences to find the right curation that challenges you, that gives you practical takeaways, that levels you up, and helps you build a community so that there are other like-minded people that you need, but also challenge you equally. It's not just people who are an echo chamber, but who level you up. And so, that is what we or that was my thought process in terms of what's the lineup we want to create. People who will challenge thinking, offer practical suggestions that I can go apply, and a structure to help you reflect and learn, and that you can plan, what am I going to do ### [20:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=1233s) Creating a Cohesive Conference Lineup differently when I go back to the office tomorrow? Cuz if we haven't created a change in the world, then, you know, we really haven't created a product that is effective. So, that was the vision statement to me. So, Ricardo, you want to add anything here? Does a lineup need a point of view? Do you have any stake on that? Should we go a little bit poking around and have more points of view than necessarily having a lineup that is structured towards a reflective point of view? Yeah, segueing what Ricardo was saying, definitely. And again, the the topic was not immediately resonating with me. I was like, beyond the build, what what do you mean? No, are we a developer conference? Conference, yeah. And all of a sudden, it was like, ah, aha, wait wait wait, now I get what you're trying to see with this beyond the build. So, then it became exactly like already it grew and then we started to understand one thing, and for me it became obvious that we needed two things. One was a narrative that will actually connect people along the journey of the talks of the conference. So, it So, we could have something that Okay, we maybe have contrarian thinking in some of the people that we are going to bring because we'd like to do that because we'd like to, as you said, poke around and make sure that we have different perspectives, even if it's from different places or from the same or for the same subject. But then, we provide a narrative. We provide a clear line a clear story from the beginning from the morning to the afternoon. People understanding that we are going to talk about from vision to money conversations. So, you going to get it all. And it's not just going to be one of those conference where we are, as Radhika was saying, we are just reflecting and resonating what the market is talking, what you read on LinkedIn. You are getting way much than that. Cuz you are getting sometimes very I would say controversial perspectives on the topic that you probably don't read every day on LinkedIn. But then, if you look at the end of the day, you should have two or three very tangible, very actionable things on your hands that at least should give you a nice brain gymnastics during the weekend, so you can actually go back to the office on Monday and say, okay, I wonder where can I fit this or where can I try this one? For sure, I think that the challenge was exactly that because it would be easier for us to go with a mainstream and then just do the obvious and we tried our best to put in some very different perspectives and talk about this the things that usually are not easy ones like the money conversation, the pricing conversation that most product managers like oh my god, I have to run away from it and I love that we had the courage and the discipline to have it in the program for sure. Yeah, I love what you said Ricardo because it wasn't just controversial for the sake of it, right? And in some conferences I see that. It was controversial in the sense, you know, being able to get people to think differently about something not just for the sake of controversy. Yeah, and we have to thank also to Anil because we had a purpose from the beginning. We just didn't know and we were kind of putting the pieces of the puzzle in between but it was fun to see again, we look now at the lineup and it seems that we had a perfect plan from the beginning. Sure, we are genius all three of us but sadly no, not me and it's so cool to see that everything made sense so much so that now we feel that we have the right and we have a line plan almost from the beginning. Mhm. So what's the hardest curate curatorial, sorry, it's a hard word to ### [24:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=1468s) Curatorial Decisions and Challenges say, hardest curatorial decision that we've made uh for this edition in your opinion. I think it was the decision you had to make Andre. Yeah. Yeah, I think that was um I was thinking about that. Yeah, cuz [clears throat] I mean we had curated, you know, a second stage and then the decision to not have the second stage that you had to make was a really tough one and I feel for you for having had to make that decision and just listening to, you know, your thoughtfulness in making that decision, too, and how well considered it was, I really appreciated that, and I feel like yeah, it makes sense, it's the right decision, but I think it was definitely the hardest, and even to listen to your thought process in that, right? Like, hearing how difficult it was for you as well. Yeah, it was quite quite hard, but, you know, we were surprised by the events of the last two, three months is with the still ongoing crisis in the Strait of Hormuz, and how this is affecting the global economy. Also, like we I mean, we were talking about it, but the fact that we have been sandwiched between Mind the Product and Product at Heart, not in intentional way, so it just happened to be that everyone kind of moved their conferences to a June conference that historically speaking were happening in October or September. Um and everyone kind of went to more or less the same. Um you know, the same time That probably put some pressure on ticket sales as well this year. That said, I was really happy by the fact that to my mind, all the speakers that we invited to the second stage were super considerate about it. They answered saying, "Okay, we totally understand. " And um and they actually offered themselves to do round tables, to, you know, to come either way, even if they were not going on stage. So, I really appreciate the candor, but also the kindness that they had in their answers. And sometimes, of course, we also have the opposite speaker, and for me, I really struggle with speakers that are too pushy, right? Speakers that kind of assume, "Oh, yeah, I have my place granted just because I'm X Y or Z. And when you're organizing a conference, basically what you're doing when you're curating you're you have artificial scarcity uh by design because you have I don't know, 10 slots and you have to fill those 10 slots. And then it ends up being what like one of those puzzles because the moment you have uh some kind of editorial line the previous it's like a Markov chain, right? The previous choices are going to influence the next choices. Uh and and you cannot just put someone there just because, right? You have to well, we kind of have a line of sight here. It's following this that's not just because you are who you are. And it's not just the it's just the personality. It's just the fact that some people they're not super empathizing with the fact that you are you have has a conference curator and organizer you're basically doing the struggle of which is quite hard. Uh I struggle with these very pushy uh speakers that um yeah, I don't know. I just I struggle with that kind of personality, but to be honest. One thing I've loved Andrea of what you've always done like which is what has made me love Product I so much is uh you know, you talked about how you know, a lot of the speakers they still wanted to participate, offered to do round tables. It's all because you managed to curate a group of people who are really thoughtful, interesting. Like the whole thing about the Product I community. You know, I've said so often that every time I'm there and this is going to be the third, fourth, fourth time in person, fifth time if you include online, right? Like a veteran, but I keep coming back because it feels like this community of you know, old friends, but also new old friends I'm making that we have deep ### [28:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=1728s) The Community Aspect of Conferences genuine conversations. It's people I want to keep in touch with and that's the beauty of just what you've curated. It feels like a community. Absolutely and that's really the strength of it. So, let's just dive a little bit deeper in the whole beyond the build team which is a call to look of what happens after you ship or just beyond the whole delivery, the impact, the culture, the community because you're speaking about the meaning. And for you Hadikka, I guess this gets personal because radical product thinking also talks about this, right? Vision over iteration. How much do you see in the product industry today still stuck in the build even when people think that they've moved past it because I think a few years ago people were not even seeing it very clearly so they had some kind of short sight. Now everyone think they've done LASIK and they have seen the light. But maybe that's [clears throat] still not the case. So, um What I see is instead of beyond the build, right? Like yeah, it's true. We've suddenly become even more entrenched in the build. Build is cheap, therefore everyone is building and product managers, their roles have suddenly become tactical again. We were going from this shift um few years ago where product managers, their role was becoming more strategic like, you know, let's not just become a feature factory uh and throw out features. Let's not just assume here's what we need to build and just throw out these features. Instead, let's do discovery. Let's do user research, empathize, understand, build. The strategic thinking in terms of how does it all come together holistically? What's the change you want to create with your product? And now all of a sudden it's gone back to you can just vibe code anything. Just vibe code it. Try it out. There's no reason to do discovery and then build something. Let's just build it and then we'll test it. Um and we've proven that this model doesn't work. It's fascinating that we're going back to exactly that. And this is what I see happens. Every time there's a big shift in the market, we take a few steps backwards as if, you know, we're relearning some of those same things. And so to me, beyond the build means not Well, first of all, stepping back from the everyday pressures where the pressure in your office is most likely build, build. Throw features out ### [31:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=1871s) Exploring AI in Product Management there. This is how you're being measured. This tactical role of, you know, now you're going back all the way to PRDs because you're creating PRDs for AI to build uh stuff. — True. — This is a trend I'm starting to see again. — Yes, me too. So, how do you — I I've seen myself do that. I was doing a agents uh agents day hackathon the other day here in Lisbon now organized by a common friend. And yeah, and we were, you know, it's a hackathon, so you had to Vibe code something for an agent or do an agent, and that was the whole idea. And I saw myself doing PRDs for the um, you know, the cloud code to ship what I wanted to ship. — You were doing What is that? PRDs for the boss. Absolutely for the boss, exactly. But see, here's the thing. I was not alone. Yeah. And so, just to be clear, you know, for our listeners, it's not uh I'm against using AI. By all means, Vibe coding is super helpful, but a lot of what we're talking about in Beyond the Build is where to use AI in a way that's effective, and where not to. How do you use AI so that you can do product management the right way, so that you're moving this whole skill forward, that you're moving companies forward, and in the process, you're also creating the change that you envision for society and the world. So, how do we do that in a way that is uh in line with the times in the AI era? And that aligns perfectly with something that I've been telling my students, the people I mentored, everyone that goes to the workshops that I provide. And I'm like lifting a little bit of the veil here on the workshop that I'm going to give also this year, but there's a lot of thought process that we need to to put it out there saying that GIGO is a thing. Garbage in, garbage out really is a thing, especially now. And I had this conversation maybe for the first time 10 years ago, 12 years ago, because I was in this low-code platform company. And we were building stuff. Again, that was the big revolution at the time that we were building something so fast and with light code and everything. And we had this internal thought that was we are allowing people to ship a lot faster, to build a lot faster, but holy moly, they can also do a lot of bad things also. So, for me it's the 80 80/20 principle here still applies. And what I really hope that we again segueing on what you were saying, Haleka, that we are definitely giving those step backs and I hope that sooner rather than later we realize that those were step backs and that we need to give 80/20 principle a shot in the sense that 80% of that time now, because it's so easy, it's so fast that to ship to ship something, you should spend 80% of the time just sharpening the axe, understanding the problem, getting the strategy right, understanding exactly what you are coping, the people, the environment, and all of those variables, because then you are laser-focused on the solution, and you deliver the right thing, and you can explore variants in the build because you know exactly where you want to go. You know exactly what are the nuances that your market is more sensitive to and all of that. So, this is now a game of who has the most knowledge with the right capacity to cheap at the right speed. Again, I don't think that we need to be snails. I'm totally against it. I've been lean agile most of my career for sure. I introduced the five-day sprints at the same time that the five-day sprints got out and then we were called crazy at the time at the company. What do you mean we have a project in five days? I said, "Yeah, we are going to land in the customer and in five days we have something. " And then Those days are gone. sprints finally came out and we felt so validated and we said, "Now these smart people from Google are saying the same that this is possible. " So, I feel that we have the same moment now, but we need to understand that if we look at the sprint, it was wild. It was five days and you get a concept at the end. Only the last two days or day and a half were about building. Yeah. So, the first three and a half days, they were all about brainstorming, getting concepts together, making sure that there was team alignment, there was different perspectives brought into the table and then you had the ### [35:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=2147s) The Importance of Understanding Before Building laser focus purpose and idea already to deliver a lot faster. So, surprise in the workshop that I'm providing, 80% is going to be about sharpening the axe, 20% five coding. So, I hope that I don't disappoint people, but they will get there they will get to the end of the workshop with a lot more understanding of the things that Khadija and I are saying here that it's more about having a much bigger understanding of the problem, of the market, of everything that you need to think about first and then yes, okay, you have the right knowledge to write the PRDs or to give the right instructions so they can write the PRD so that it can consume. And then it's all about five coding, but those are the 20% of the process. Speaking of which, Ricardo, you're also co-facilitating a workshop this year with Andrea Chimar. Do you want to unveil a little bit what this workshop is going to be about? Yeah, that sounds great. And in fact, speaking of controversial, you know, here's my take on the sprint, right? The five-day sprint. Yeah, exactly. So, it's interesting. I used to use the five-day sprint approach, but I've actually found it to not be as effective as it could be. And for similar reasons that you're talking about, Ricardo, which is that, you know, on the one hand, I think in the sprint was great when it came out, but there's so much more we can do and better now. One thing that sprint didn't do very well was it assumed that you have done exploratory user research, that you've already understood the customer, that all you have to do is create team alignment, and then you're able to sketch, etc. And at the end of the week you're testing. Whereas what I've found is actually you really do need to do exploratory user research. And especially in B2B companies, exploratory user research interviews are so hard to come by. I mean, for anyone who's in B2B, you've probably experienced that sales people say to you, "You what? You want to talk to our customers and you want to ask them stupid questions about their workflow? You should already know this. " You know, it's very hard to come by exploratory interviews. The workshop that I'm doing with Andre is what I call puzzle solving. And it's instead of just chasing metrics like user engagement and revenues, instead of just chasing targets, you're puzzle solving. And instead of a five-day design sprint, it's more like a five-day puzzle solving week where you level up the whole team and your project as well. And the way you do that is through both combining exploratory research as well as doing user testing using AI. Exploratory research is not using AI. This is where you're talking to customers and asking questions, but AI gives you the ability to prototype very quickly and try things out. And how you can organize a puzzle-solving week so that you can solve puzzles. And Andre is going to be talking about what he has been doing at Product Tank, which is he has been using roadmap. A roadmap is a way of communicating the puzzles that they're solving. So, the two, you know, when we met, felt like they go perfectly well together and it aligns in terms of how you solve puzzles very systematically in a company and really level up what you ### [39:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=2340s) Innovative Workshop Approaches create. And yes, you use AI, but you're doing it using the human element of solving puzzles and producing actually good results. Okay. Very well. So, I hope that this is going to be the first time that you're actually co-facilitating with Andrea Hickman, right? Although we know each other from previous interactions. All right, so let's maybe talk a little bit about going to a more even meta stage, which is the human side of building something together. We have been building this conference for the last few months, actually more months than I care to admit. So, several cross time zones. Radhika is in East Coast of the United States. Me and Ricardo, we are here in Lisbon. What surprised you about the curation process, either about each other or about how these ### [39:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=2388s) The Human Element in Collaboration decisions got made, any moments of productive friction? You know, for me it was fascinating that it was so much smoother actually than I ever expected. I'll be very honest when I said yes to curation, I was thinking, "Oh my god, what did I just sign up for? " And yet, you know, what motivated me to say I wanted to do this was really because I have like I've said, you know, I've really loved Product Tank. I've spoken there 3 years in a row and even I felt like, "Okay, fourth time in a row is maybe one too many. It's time to give other speakers a chance, too. And I loved that you had suggested helping curate it. I was so afraid that it was going to be so much work, but somehow just working with you and Ricardo just felt so natural that it has felt like it's just been such a pleasure um to just get to know you guys at just more depth and being able to work together, too. Yeah, she's so nice. — it's what it's my first time working with Ricardo in a more work-based uh to be honest. We have I mean, of course Ricardo uh did facilitate in the past, but I think this is the first time that I'm actually seeing Ricardo in action. I was very positively surprised because doing the evaluations of the open call is quite a lot of work, and Ricardo actually uh did it. Uh he was the first one to evaluate the entire list, and I was uh super happy about it. He inspired us to get cracking. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. So, thanks Ricardo for, you know, whipping our asses. No, man. And And Radik is not lying because I I had the feeling that well, Andre is trying to convince me to still curate because he needs a diplomat in the team maybe to — to set sometimes. Then I was like, "Okay, no no, it's going to be very smooth. " I think that the cool thing about anyone that has the product I spirit is that we all understand that the best way we can benefit anyone that participates and that goes to the to the conference is that they get there with a full meal. Right? They get all that It's like you have a taste menu, and then they go through all of the experiences, and they have a bit of everything, not everything, but at least a bit of the biggest ones that we wanted to serve them and they get something out of it. And that was the biggest concern. And I think that we were so aligned with that with a purpose at the end that regardless of the names, we had to have some assurance or at least some good feeling that from what we got from the presentations and what the the speakers that proposed to heads presented to us, that we had a good understanding that they were delivering something and then people would take something home with them. That was for me the the biggest one and that's why I was so committed to have the full reviews at the beginning cuz I really wanted to understand okay, besides the talk, what is the message that they are trying to convey here? Is there something that we can take away? What is the actionable thing that we take out of this conversation? And sometimes it was not clear, sometimes it was interesting because after our discussion, then either it was super clear that was not the right person to be in on the roster or the other way around that okay, I'm not I didn't think about that perspective. Okay, this is a good perspective. And that's cool. I think this principle that we are all from the product side of things and that we have this empathy and then we learn how to listen to other people's perspectives that we know that by listening we probably enrich what we are trying to produce. I I think that alone made this possible and again the personalities aligned. I don't know how, but very well. So, um super impressed with with everyone. I knew Hadicke from the talks already and I had we had some brief conversations in the previous years. I've known Andre for a while. Again, not in that work capacity, but just having some conversations, some tough, some easy about product. And it's super cool cuz we are three very different people, three that very different perspectives on what we think products of the core of the net, but then we are super aligned on the principles, and that made things so easy. You know, this is not to say there wasn't creative friction, too, right? And one example of creative friction was, and I still completely disagree with you, Andre, that AI should not be used for exploratory user research. The use of synthetic AI users for asking questions is a terrible idea. And here in Lizar, our creative friction, too, right? Our discussion prompted me to pen an article about why it's a bad idea and to explain a lot of the logic behind it, and it forced me to do a lot of research to explain my perspective, including talking to people at uh top AI labs. So, here's the article, and we can share it. We'll put in our show notes if we like. — show notes, for sure. Yeah, I'll be honest. Also running the conference for as long as I have, so this is going to be the 11th year edition, 11 years talking about product. So, we kind of started more or less at the same time of other product conferences. Some of them are not even there out anymore, like Product Camp from Mathilde. It was a great event in London. I think they you know, they ended up and I respect a lot of that those decisions, but then there are moments where I wonder if, you know, this format is still right, if communities if this product community still needs what we've been giving them, if we're still building the right thing for the people that you know, that they actually want. How do you think about that, and how do you Yeah, how what is what what's your take on that? Do you think this format is still When I not necessarily just productized. The whole conference format is still a valid one, especially when things just move so fast that if you curate something 6 months ago, it might not ### [46:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=2771s) The Relevance of Conferences in a Fast-Paced World even be valid by the time it gets to the audience or you pen something, you know, you were talking about this artificial, you know, synthetic users, but you know, by the time you pen this, synthetic users might just be at another level. So, I don't know. And what's your take on this? So, my take is that when you're curating something and the talks are based on first principles, those ideas are really valid and those are the ones that we really need to highlight and curate for people because honestly, if you don't have conferences that curate that, if you're just saying I'm going to learn through online resources, especially with so much AI slop out there at the moment, it's harder than ever to find resources that are actually valid. Like, how do you know that this is true or not? How do you know if someone has actually tried this, if it's a practical approach? How do you know if it works? Um and so, this is why I feel like this format is more valid than ever. Um so, let's talk about this example of, you know, the article that I'd penned about why synthetic users are don't work. It's not about just the tactical, you know, maybe it'll improve over time. It's the fundamental issue that underlies it that user research works when you are finding the unknown unknowns, right? And by principle, LLMs focus on the known knowns, right? And so, you cannot discover the unknown unknowns, which is the where all the breakthrough innovations lie, which is why LLMs don't work for doing synthetic user research. So, this is not something that is tactical. This is something truly first principles. You can explain sort of why it doesn't work. But similarly, I think a lot of what we've curated is truly groundbreaking I feel and thought-provoking because it's at that first principles level. One example of a talk that I'm really looking forward to is Tanya Neems. You know, she when she told me about her content, basically she was working at a company where they were doing a huge round of layoffs layoffs. She had lost more than 30% of her staff, more than 40 I think. And then, how did she from there actually manage to motivate a team? Nobody left. They solved a puzzle and they beat management's expectations by 60%. How do you go from layoffs to actually creating a team environment where you're solving a puzzle, you're motivated, and delivering such results? I'm super excited by just I learned a lot from her when she told me about it and I'm excited for the audience to see her talk. You know, there's another talk about what do you do about pricing in the world in the age of AI. You know, Ricardo said we don't talk about pricing so much. Like these are the kinds of talks that I really have wanted to listen to and it's curated stuff that is very hard to find online as you search for resources. What do you think, Ricardo? And then we are people animal. We are definitely people person. Every product Every good product management that I know, most of them are really we love people, basically. If we didn't, we wouldn't be in doing what we do because it would be very strange to do it at least successfully and not be people person. So, definitely there's an appetite for these kind of things. Most people in our realm have a very big imposter syndrome issue, right? And then so it's great when you bring the community together and you have this ability not just to listen with all of these great people do the great workshops that we have, but also bringing people together that will allow the communication, people change experiences, what have you been doing, up to in your company? And I hear very honest, very transparent discussions at if I would think that most people would probably not have those conversations as transparently as I hear them on Productized, which for me tells me that by principle, people feel that Productized is a very psychological safety place to to have those conversations. And again, when you have those moments that you bring people together, that you have people talking with each other, learning from each other in that way, not necessarily just from the gurus on stage and all of that. That for me has a lot of value, and that's what community is all about. So, I do think that people still have a great appetite. Maybe the geopolitical state of the world right now doesn't allow for everyone to move as much as they they wanted to, but we saw that with COVID, man. People were at home. People were with mandates to be stranded at home. Immediately after, people were so fed up of it that they wanted to go outside. They wanted to talk with other people. It's the same with product people. I think that most people, even if they work in big companies, they feel that this is a very lonely job. It's a very demanding position. It's a very taxing one as well because you have to make a lot of decisions. You don't own most of the management's relationships with the people that you have to influence in your organization. And then, you still have the responsibility to make something that generates a lot of revenue for the company. So, I do think that this is valid for all the reasons that Radhika mentioned. Plus, I do think that the people person bringing everyone together, having community, and all of that also is a big one. So, Andre, in short, we hope you keep doing this for a very long time. Oh, I don't know about that. I think it's also time to evaluate. Actually, I got a very nice email the other day from Sebastian, our fellow organizer from Product Masterclass in Germany, and he asked me, "Is it because the conference will die? " I hope not. I hope the conference will live, and I think it's a great it's a great opportunity also to, you know, pass the token to someone else. But, that's an ongoing conversation that I've been having. Um and it's super important that we also understand that one of the speakers we had a few years ago, Gibson Biddle, he was the VP for product at Netflix. He said something that I still remember when he came here to Productized back in 2019. He said, "Uh conferences are a labor of love. " And that's so true, right? Um you don't make a lot of money out of it. You're actually lucky if you make any money out of it. Uh and uh you make it because you believe in what you're doing, you have a message, you want to spread some kind of uh you know, ethos, something that you believe on. And uh and you can do it for a while, while you have the energy, stamina. But, even very successful conferences like TED, they got sold, they got acquired, they got um you know, they got and very few conferences in the world have been having have been happening for a long time. Universities uh last for centuries, but conferences they peak at their zeitgeist, and every single conference has a zeitgeist because it's just the nature of you know, I think there's a reason why three or four product conferences started back in 2000 and in the this period of 2013 to 2016. So, all the product I all the product management conferences started in those years either in the United States or here in in Europe. Uh there's one exception, which is Product at Heart, but Product at Heart is essentially um you know, the brainchild of um Arden and uh and and you could argue that he did that because, you know, it's the succession of the Mind the Product Hamburg. And that also started back in 2015 or 16. And that's the zeitgeist. And zeitgeist is important. You cannot really conspire against zeitgeist. You have to respect zeitgeist in a way. So, let's talk about this year because I think we still want to end in a very aspirational note. What would make Productized 2026 at this new venue, the Museum of the Orient, something that people talk about, like Ricardo said, when they come back to the office on Monday, they reach out to their Slack channels, and they start sharing the videos ### [54:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oQklllHlg&t=3288s) Creating Lasting Impact at Productized 2026 they start sharing the PowerPoints, the photographs, the notes, and "Hey, Radhika said this. Hey, I learned this with the Ricardo. " What would that uh that be like? So, let's I'm asking you both of you to paint that picture, and then I can we can wrap it up around that. So, one thing that I'm super excited about is we want to create an atmosphere and create time for reflection at Productized. That Those there's a beautiful quote I came across last year, which is we don't learn from experience, we learn from reflecting on experience. And how often do we get time to reflect and think back to something, right? And so, one of the things that I want to do as part of MCing is at the end of every talk, share just my quick highlights from that talk in terms of what did I learn from it and what would I do next based on that learning. And I would invite, you know, our audience too to take a moment and just reflect on like what is something you learned and how would you apply that? Like what would you do next with this, right? And it's this sort of reflection that really helps you solidify this. And my hope, like this is the part where, you know, you were what would people share. My hope is that people will take this sort of template that you were going to even and make it downloadable and easy for you to share in this way, but sharing, you know, what did you learn and what would you do next and being able to share that with colleagues in a way that's really easy for someone to digest without necessarily having watched the whole talk, but, you know, here's something and then if it feels applicable for them, you know, very often, uh I think people then go back and dig in more. But that's my hope that we give people this time to reflect and learn and then build a community by having people share their learnings from Productized and grow the community that way. Do you want to add something, I'm not sure if you're muted. I was, sorry. Just to be sure that we didn't have any background noise. I was saying that for me I would be happy, really, really happy if I got people saying, "When is the next one? " Right? Because we all know this, we are all product people. We all understand that more than the perceptions, the knowledge required and everything, that emotion reaction that people really love this because they resonated with something, because they learned something, because they see immediate action that they take and take to their day-to-day jobs. But my bet this year is that I really want to see people delighted with this one. I really want to understand if we made a nice job at creating the program and then making sure that we have a nice alignment on stage. So people get to the end and say, "Holy, this is it's that I have to do next year again. " Yeah. Totally. All right. So, before we close, let's do what we always do on this show. We take a step back and with the still we try to distill three insights, super quick ones. We don't want to do but if first So, let me put it this way. So, what are your top three takeaways from today's conversation? Maybe [clears throat] we can have three um new liners. So, if a first-time conference organizer was listening to this, what's the one thing they need to hear? And I can start with this one because I think as a conference organizer, I think I'm qualified to maybe tell them about this. What's the one thing they need to hear? I think they should from the beginning, from the get-go, they should try to understand what kind of event they are actually into. What kind of So, the moment you scale this, if it is a paid event, so people actually pay tickets to go to the event, which is the case of Product I we ask people to pay tickets to help us um you know, pay for the event. They should do the math in order that the ticket sales actually pay for the event. They should really understand what kind of event they have. If it's paid by the customer, the value is for the customer more than it is for the sponsor. They should not They should do the math. They should create the infrastructure and product so that the value of the ticket really reflects what um what they're delivering. And if they cannot ask for that price point, then they should really think about whether that is the model they should go for. And maybe they can search for other models like having some kind of, you know, a big sponsor that actually pays for the party or doing it online or doing it at the a very much lower cost because they don't have to incur in extra expenditures like traveling and speaking fees and all that. Because if that the moment that is the model, I think you really need to do your math right because sustainability is going to be important. You might uh you might just first year and then second and year but sustainability at the end of day is going to um make you run uh for a longer time. So, this is a marathon. Think about doing a conference, it's a marathon. If you do the first year with just because you have lots of energy, that's fine. But uh it's like a baby. You know, once it's born, it has a life of its own. And what Ricardo was saying, which is, "Oh, people will say, I'd love to have the conference next year. " It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. You feel forced and obliged to do it next year because you're the daddy, right? You have to make sure that the baby steps in for the next year and the next year. So, yeah, be very honest with yourself. What are you really trying to get into? And really treat it like uh one of those life-changing decisions because yeah, don't treat it as uh something as an afterthought. I think it is an important decision, especially if it's going to be something which is really a conference like hundreds of people coming to, not just, you know, an event or a meetup. That's a totally different story. So, let's go to the second takeaway. This one I might ask Ricardo. What's the thing the product community most needs to understand about how conferences are actually made? Oh, wow. That's a big one. Well, but wait, that's a whole different question. Before we go there, can I just comment on the fact that I see so much product thinking in everything you just said, Andre. Like, just you design a conference like one would design a product. Like, by God, there's no one better to create a product conference than you because of how much product thinking I just heard in that one answer to what should someone know. You know, what you just said, right? You talked about product strategy and how pricing is aligned with what the customer needs and who is paying for it. Like, you know, this is the kind of product thinking that often doesn't happen in companies where you think about pricing aligned with customer needs. You know, when you talked earlier about the zeitgeist and this questioning of should the conference even exist, this is so core to even the vision statement. You know, in the radical vision statement, I talk about how you need to have a clear answer for if you're creating a product, why is the status quo without the product unacceptable? Like, why must you solve the problem? And today, even in how you talk about the conference and what someone should know, you talk about it in exactly that way. Like, why must you do this, right? I think this whole approach, it's so vision-driven and thoughtful, which is why we get along so well, and which is I think why I love what you've created and productized. All right, so let's let me reverse the question to you, Radhika, and then we'll get Ricardo into this. So, what does curation teach you about product thinking? Oh, okay. He's dropping the bombs now. So, what did curation teach me about product thinking? Or vice versa. If you want. It works both ways. Yeah, that um you know, you've really modeled this being vision-driven in Productized. And one of the reasons I think all three of us got along so well was that even in the curation process, sorry, it was very vision-driven. That we were really aligned on that vision and the clarity of what is it that we were solving for. So, it was just I guess one thing I learned was how much easier it was to work together because we had so much alignment on the vision. Mhm. All right. Ricardo, I promised I'll get back to you. Uh That's But, that's a wrap on today's episode. I think um this was one of my favorite conversations. We went very meta, but um it was really worthwhile. Radhika and Ricardo, thank you for not only helping shape Productized 2026 and how it's coming to take shape and here in Lisbon. So, looking forward to have you with us, Radhika, this year and of course you, Ricardo, as well. But, also for helping me think more clearly about what matters. I mean, there were some moments that were not so happy and you were there. And more than being there, you helped me think about the process. And before we sign off, Radhika, what's on your radar now? Anything you'd love people to explore before we all see each other in Lisbon? I'm still working on my book about the puzzle-solving mindset, why we need to shift from goal-setting to puzzle-setting. And that's my what my workshop is about. And so, yeah, for our listeners, you know, come find me at the workshop, find me at Productized. You heard me talk about uh the puzzle-solving approach last year. My workshop is different. It always is. I never cover the same material twice. So, come find me at Productized. And uh also let me know how puzzle-solving is going for you if you saw my talk last year. Thank you. Ricardo, very cool. Any plugs? I know you have a lovable day coming in, right? The lovable day coming in in 25th of May here in Lisbon and a lot of you other events. But, definitely at Productized we'll do uh the workshop as well. It's a vibe coding uh workshop and I already gave a little bit up which is that we'll be doing a lot of product thinking first and then vibe coding after which is good. Are people required to bring their laptops — Yeah, yeah. Bring your laptop too. Have a laptop now has a mobile app. So he's a mobile app. Okay, bring your mobile at least which — At least your phone. That that's it. And I've been doing a lot of stuff with AI like getting edge agents or even stuff that it's not agent because agent is cool. It's agent because now it enables personalization or hyper personalization which is very interesting. Um and definitely I'd love to have those conversations and I'm also at the beginning stages of writing my book finally about impact and teams and how purpose and mission driven teams actually perform a lot better than teams that do not have that purpose and mission. — You should definitely talk with Matt Blumberg, one of our speakers. He's the author of Impact First Product Eye. — forward for that one for sure. Okay, so at least the creators are excited. Man, we are. And about the lineup, right? — And I still remember the conversation we had and then maybe 2021 maybe it was right after COVID that we had a coffee and I kind of almost begged you not to not do Product Eye. I was like, "You have to do it, man. You have to do it. So good. " So that I'm definitely a fan of Product Eye. I came back for the promise. And for everyone tuning in, Product Eye conference 2026 is happening June this year. Not October, not September, not August, not July, June June this upcoming month. June 18th 19th in Lisbon the city where it has grown to be almost a teenager at Museum of the Orient. It's a great venue and if you've been listening to the podcast and thinking about whether to come, this conversation is your sign. Follow LinkedIn, subscribe to the show, leave us a comment, reply. We'll generally genuinely read and reply to everything. Thanks again for listening. Remember, the build is just the beginning. See you in the next episode and if it goes well, here in Lisbon. Thank you. See you all in Lisbon. --- *Источник: https://ekstraktznaniy.ru/video/51152*