# Patience as Virtue or Compliance with Dr. Christina Cipriano | Dealing With Feeling ## Метаданные - **Канал:** Marc Brackett - **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI3J0CHxAJo - **Дата:** 04.02.2026 - **Длительность:** 50:44 - **Просмотры:** 834 - **Источник:** https://ekstraktznaniy.ru/video/53379 ## Описание We praise patience in every system. It can be wisdom. It can also be the word that keeps people quiet. In this episode of Dealing With Feeling, Marc Brackett sits down with Dr. Christina “Chris” Cipriano to explore when “be patient” becomes a way to protect comfort instead of kids, and what it looks like to interrupt harm without humiliating the person. They talk about • Why “be patient” can protect adult comfort instead of kids • What inspired Chris’s book Be Unapologetically Impatient and the leadership gap it names • The most dangerous phrase in any system, “That’s just how we do things” • Calling people out vs calling people in, and when each is necessary • A simple reset in the moment that keeps dignity intact • How to respond when you feel that stomach drop, and you still have to lead Connect with Dr. Christina “Chris” Cipriano Website: https://www.drchriscip.com Book: Be Unapologetically Impatient: The Mindset Required to Change the Way We Do Things https://www.amazon.com/Be- ## Транскрипт ### Segment 1 (00:00 - 05:00) [] What the hell is going on here right now? — Imagine what would happen if you said thank you every time you would have said I'm sorry. What I'm talking about is hard. It's tiresome and it's not safe for everybody. It makes no sense that the um restroom stalls that are for families like ours to use are located at the farthest end of any given public restroom. — Hi everyone, welcome to the Dealing with Feeling podcast. I'm Mark Brackett, founding director of the Yel Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of the new book, Dealing with Feeling and Permission to Feel. Take a moment and think about this. How often do you say, "I'm sorry," for no reason? How often do you feel compelled to apologize before you ask for something that actually is really important and needed? Well, today I had a really rich conversation with a colleague of mine, Dr. Christina Cypriano. Chris is an associate professor at the Yale Child Study Center and also is the director of the Education Collaboratory at Yale. We spoke about her new book, Be Unapologetically Impatient. It was a really rich conversation. I learned a lot and I know you will, too. I'd love for you to share your comments about this episode and please subscribe to our channel so you can learn more about how to deal with your feelings. — Welcome, Chris. — Hey, Mark. How's it going? — I'm good, thank you. It's great to see you. — Great to see you as well. Thanks for having me. — We have to record a podcast to get together. — This is how the world works right now, right? I mean, be in the same digital space. Yeah. Um, I'm excited to talk with you because I've actually, you know, we've obviously we've worked together for a decade or more. Um, but it's been, you know, either writing a paper or research or something like that and not like me getting to really talk with you about kind of your passion and especially your new passion or not your new passion, but how you've taken your passion and put it into this fantastic new book called Be Unapologetically Impatient. And um so let's just start with a uh why be unapologetically impatient. Now — so be unapologetically impatient is the mindset required to change the way we do things. So when we think about the systems and structures that exist in our everyday lives, each and every one of us have an opportunity to affect change. And we can do that by understanding our role in the interaction and by what we say and how we say it. And in the book, I provide evidence-based strategies, strategies that I'm sure many of them are familiar with you from the work that we've done in emotional intelligence over the years to support each and every one of us to affect change right now. — Nice. But I really want to know from your like I know how you think Chris and I know you the feelings that you've had about the society you know where your kids have grown up and the experiences and the challenges that you've had. Um, so give me like the Chris like why now from like Chris deep inside. — My kids and all kids deserve to grow up in a world where they have opportunity to thrive — and that is not going to happen in until each and every one of us take steps to change the way we do things in systems of education, healthcare and industry. And so I wrote this book to provide everyone with the strategies they need to start those conversations because we won't know if we don't try. So we have to start here with each other. And so what you're arguing is that the what I'm hearing you say is that there's this like there's like the individual who is in this world who has needs that may not be getting met or actually not even needs not being met but like oppressed. Um and then we've got these systems um that need radical change. Am I right? It sometimes it could be radical but sometimes it could really just be the smallest shift in what we understand as you know a barrier and seeing it as a barrier. So if we take a step back and think about the ways in which we're all kind of understood in a system many of us have identities that have been positioned as being at a disadvantage. And so I actually anchored the experience of disability in my book and kind of how I came to be in the disability community um on behalf of my first of my oldest son. He was born with a rare disease. And so I was kind of brought into the system where he was being positioned as being at a disadvantage. And so I learned through ### Segment 2 (05:00 - 10:00) [5:00] that experience in the ways in which um he was being treated in systems that you know now I see our everyday interactions differently because we have different needs and different experiences. And what really is the um issue here is that what we understand as a disadvantage can be really seen as a different vantage point. So I'll give you an example. I' I've heard from many readers across the world that they're like I never thought about this how my son uses a wheelchair now. So, we're a family that rolls. And it became really clear to me when we started being a family that rolls that, you know, it makes no sense that the um restroom stalls that are for families like ours to use are located at the farthest end of any given public restroom, if they're there at all. Right? And so, we're actually making the folks who need the most space traverse the longest pathway in order to get there. And that door may open outward and kind of make it kind of like logistically impossible to get in. That's just a super physical example, but many folks say, "Gosh, I never thought about that and how those are positioned. " And that's one kind of small way into thinking about how when you have a different vantage point, — you can see your world differently. So the way we do things may appear different to you and may appear as a you know, we have something we can change here. I recognize that this system or this structure or this, you know, curriculum, school setting, policy, insurance, is not set up with my needs in mind. — But I can show you how we can change it because I can see the solution because I see the opportunity. — Nice. And so I think you were probably intentional uh about using the word impatient. Um and uh because you know what is the whole thing? Patience is a virtue. — Exactly. — Yeah. And I think that you're saying, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. " So give me the give me your um perspective on impatience. — Yes. So um so yes. So right I mean people across all walks of life will consider patience as a virtue from the work of William Langford to John Kavitt Zinn right this idea that like if you wait to have your needs met some justice is served but when we think about patient as a noun the etmology of patient we're talking about someone who's suffering in a system who's waiting for their needs to be met and so I pose this question of why and when are you and your family and your school community being asked to wait, being asked to be patient. When are you being thanked for your patience in systems and structures? Or when is someone, you know, when is there an opportunity for you to change that? Right? Is it really that you were being patient and so it's a justful thing that you know, you're kind of sorry, let me say that again. In you being patient, is it really the case that some justice is being served? or is your patience rather just serving the system and letting you know unjust ways of being thrive? And when we think about it from the lens of disability, which is where I anchor the storytelling in the book, um, people with disabilities, individuals with disabilities, and the ways in which their needs are nested within the systems of education, healthcare, and industry, there is an assumption that these needs must take longer to be met or it must be more expensive or there must be a reason why you should be patient. Mhm. — But really those systems and structures, not that they were necessarily designed to inhibit people with disabilities to have successful, healthy lives, but they've been socialized to say, well, we should just accept that we need to wait longer. Um, but when you realize that it can be different, when we see the opportunity to do it differently, um, you know, it starts to kind of unfold. And I talk about it in the book as, you know, like putting on a new pair of glasses. Now that you see it, you can't unsee it. Let me give you a really concrete example, Mark. So my oldest son, Miles, now uses a um eye tracking device for communication. So he has a regressive rare disease and so he uses a Toby device. And we're going through the process in kind of acquiring a Toby device. And once we go through two rounds of insurance approvals for it, we're then told that, you know, it's going to take about eight months — for the device to be to materialize. Eight months is basically a school year, right? We think we're talking about an elementary school age child. And so, you know, in most other cases, you wouldn't tell any parent that we're going to wait a whole school year for your child to learn how to communicate better, right? To have the opportunity to learn in a best way to meet their needs. And you might say, like I thought at first, well, that's got to be that the technology is so expensive and so complicated to produce. But Mark, I'll tell you, I looked into it and you know the eyetracking software that we all have that we our biometrics, you look at your phone, it turns on your computer screen. That's the same basic ### Segment 3 (10:00 - 15:00) [10:00] premise for his communication device. I could get it in fun form on Amazon in a Quest next day delivery, but yet for the communication device, it's, you know, the so we're socialized to be patient that it'll take eight months. And that's just one of kind of many examples that we could talk about. And so we've got this, it's pretty clear what, you know, I like the way you talked about the patient as a noun and like this person who whether it's physical illness, mental illness or whatever it is, — right? — It's like and then thinking about it in terms of like no needs need to be met now. You know, there's no like this there's no waiting here, — right? And my son's condition is regressive and so as he ages, he loses skills. So it's a you know the longer we wait like what are we waiting for the less that we have access to. — Yeah. — And so the unapologetically obviously there's — Yes. So I can speak a little bit more to that. Right. So my first ask of you and everyone you know is to you know all of your listeners here is to think about and recognize — when do you apologize — and when do other people apologize to you. Right? So, in some cases, we may have been socialized to apologize because it's the polite things to do. And we could talk about how it's perhaps a sympathetic response in some cases, like someone's trying to extend an olive branch, but it's falling short of really being an empathetic um area of concern. Or maybe you are apologizing when you ask a question. — I'm sorry. Can you repeat that? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. I'm sorry. Could you help me? Right? And so start to first think about like what are we apologizing for? When are people apologizing to us? And I, you know, encourage you all to think about well what would change if you switched from saying I'm sorry to thank you. — And this is a simple strategy that I weave throughout the book and show many examples in education, healthcare, and industry of what switches in the dynamic between people when instead of starting that interaction or closing that interaction with I'm sorry, we do so with gratitude. How does that shift the you know either embedded power dynamic in the interaction that you're having? How does it shift the ways in which you and your family and your school's needs are being met and positioned in the interaction? So from medical providers, you know, educators, school leaders, industry, when you switch it, something changes, right, in that interaction. And then we have an opportunity to invite each other in or as I write about in the book, call each other in — to affect change. — Yeah. And so [clears throat] be unapologetically impatient probably needs some skills because you can imagine um it could come across probably and this is like the trick I think with the work right is that how are you being perceived when you're talking with your health care provider when you're talking to the insurance company when you're talking whoever. — Exactly. Yeah. And um even though gosh with you know the circumstances with your one son it's like no like there's no time here like you want your needs met now but in the world that we live in we have to do that with some skill and grace — right and we have to recognize when is the opportunity for that like what are the types of interactions I'm not saying that everybody should be you know up there shouting complaining I'm not calling for anything like that. There are many things that are worth waiting for. — Yeah. — In life. But recognizing that what you say and how you say it because of your respective vantage point that you see that this could be differently is a way that we can call each other in to affect system change. So I really am seeding systems change through one interaction at a time by teaching people how to be unapologetically impatient. So that brings us to the kind of my life's work, your career work, you know, in social emotional development and learning. — And so what are the skills? What do you in terms of if you had to take everything that you've learned in being unapologetically impatient yourself and observing other people, what do you believe top two to three skills that everybody needs to learn? — Right. So the first is the recognition of your affective response in the given interaction, right? And I know our work has documented this to date, but as I talk about in the book, we have to understand our body's early warning system. So with the discomfort, the rage, like what's happening in that moment, your body's queuing for you that this could be different and that you have an opportunity to affect change. ### Segment 4 (15:00 - 20:00) [15:00] Then we move into understanding and recognizing that the way you see yourself is probably not the way the other person you're interacting with sees you — just like how you know so perspective taking right because the reality is that person you're talking to the third grade teacher the principal the you know medical professional the person on the line they are not the injustice. Yeah — they are the face of an injustice that you've recognized that you see from your vantage point. And similarly, they're going to see you as like a parent or that parent. You know, you Googled before you got here. You're just here to start trouble and you know, fill in the blank with what they've decided from their mindset. So these skills of perspective taking, so that self-awareness, social awareness to then move us into um active emotionally intelligent dialogue. And so I give some strategies for this in the book. I talk about, you know, what you can do to introduce yourself, how to introduce an interaction in what you say and how you position yourself in that moment. So, you know, I'll often get down. My son's in a wheelchair, so if it's something regarding him, I will bring the person right down. I will crouch down and say like, "This is Miles. He's 13. Um, he loves Buzz Lightyear or whatever it might be that we're kind I contextualize it to the moment. " Or, you know, I'm Chris. I'm a mom. I have four kids. We're not from around here. hoping you can help me. Then you lead with gratitude. I talked a bit about that before, but I cannot stress enough what happens when you shift from I'm sorry and dismissing your needs to an empathetic — thank you for being here. State the fact. So practical communication. It's not a question or debate. — There is no ramp. My child needs that accommodation. There was no fill in the blank with what it might be. you see it from your vantage point, what can you do with it now? And then lastly, the um empathetic response to tie it together is how can I help? How can we help? And you know, I've learned in talking with and getting the privilege to work with educators and parents across the country, right, that you usually already know what how to change it. You're like, yeah, like they need to have sporting equipment that all the kids could have access to or you know the Chromebooks get up kept at school or like whatever it might be. you already know how to solve this problem. So offer it. It's not how could you do this, you know, why don't you change this, right? We're not putting the honest onus on another person. We're offering ourselves be part of the solution. And you know, you know this in education, but we could talk about it in healthcare and industry, too, that we need each other. Like we're not meant to move through our development in independent of one another. And these systems that kids are growing up in, right, they rely on us and our ability to co-regulate in how we're engaging, right? And so we need to make sure that we are inviting each other in to move it forward in the ways in which we um create conditions so all kids can thrive. — And do you see this being a developmental process? So, it's a developmental process in the sense that you will continue to change what you see and then what you say and how you say it as you move across. But I'm I meant more along the lines of you know it's harder to as you know some of these ideas came from your experience as an adult you know and um but there's so many things you know kindergarteners third graders fifth graders right you know whether it be you know the kid who's being bullied in school or the whatever uh the child for themselves, you know, um if they have, you know, the ability to speak and communicate. Um how do you see teaching this to a third grader? — So the first is that recognition that the way that they are feeling things is valid and the way that they see things is valid. that recognition. And you know, you know that the history of my work in social emotional learning is all about recognizing all of the diverse ways that people know, see, and navigate their world, which historically has not been embraced and accepted as um you know, opportunities to thrive. And so it's that recognition piece versus that validity — of experience, of lived experience, and the ways in which we're engaging to then move us to have those emotionally intelligent skills for how we communicate those needs. I'll give you an example. my um amazingly brilliant neurode divergent now 10-year-old daughter, you know, she used to a few years ago would start calling people ableist. So she'd say, "You're being ableist. " And you know, where'd she get that from? She got that from me when I mean, but not everybody knows what that means. — Yeah. So, no, being ableist is being not respective of a disability and, you know, the ways in which kind of systems and structures are operating. And so, you know, she heard me say that a ### Segment 5 (20:00 - 25:00) [20:00] few times in maybe my not so best parenting moments when I was not being unapologetically impatient in all the ways I would hope for. And she did she used it. She'd say, you know, when someone would do something for her, for her um her older brother, she would just call them ableist. And you know what I told her? Like, no one is going to hear you if you put them on the defense. And when you call someone ableist, just like if you were to call somebody racist or xenophobic or bigot, right? you they're not listening to learn with you anymore. They're now listening to win. You've put them on the defense. And so there's other ways to call people in. And so even, you know, as young as my children and teaching them that what you say and how you say it impacts how people see you, how they hear you, and how they grow with you. — Yeah. It reminds me actually you know early on you know not early on but in the curriculum you know in schools uh with ruler we do this problem solving piece where we have the students themselves you know consider a challenge whether in this for an individual or for the community and how early on like I was you made me think about this from the abbleist thing because they Um, you know, things as you point out so clearly for most of childhood and adulthood are set up for the typically a developed person. So like it's a swim party at, you know, if you live in a place where there's pools and you don't realize that the kid with the wheelchair who's going to be invited to the party is not going to be able to swim or participate in that activity the way, you know, you'd hope everybody would. Yes. Or you know what you know the situation — is that you may the the parent the kids as they're planning are not thinking of inclusion maybe. — Right. I think you know I think um I talk about this in the book how like food allergies is a really good like example of this. Like most people will say that they didn't like recognize the ways in which common food allergens like show up in their everyday lives until they had somebody in their family or they themselves who had a dietary restriction, right? And now they see it and now they're like, "Oh, right. " It's the same kind of idea. If you kind of have an experience of disability or you're the, you know, you speak a language that's outside of the kind of language of instruction in your school, like you once you see it, then you're like, "Oh, okay. I now recognize that there is an opportunity here to, you know, expand beyond the way we're doing things. And in the book, Mark, I talk about it like a boulder. And so I describe that, you know, sometimes for some of us, how we've been socialized, where we've been raised, like the ways in which we've been living that the way we do things is so big. It's the only way it can be. Like we really can't see any other scenario in what we teach or what the kids birthday party is or how we understand holidays or relationships, fill in the blank, right? It's just it's the only way it could be. — But those of us who have identities that have been positioned at a disadvantage, we have a different vantage point. We see to the left, to the right, over, under the boulder. like we see it and we can invite everybody else in to see it too — and we can begin to move it forward. And — you know I don't want to um dismiss the fact that what I'm talking about is hard. It's tiresome — and it's not safe for everybody, right? Right. — And what I um you know call upon all of us in the book in the call to action is to recognize that if you have the opportunity to start a conversation um in many cases you're at that starting line. It's your obligation to do so because there are maybe many other people who have similar experiences as you do who will never be in a position to be safe enough to start the conversation. — Yeah. Well, that's why I was bringing up the early childhood elementary work because — I feel as if a lot of what you're hoping for, — whether it's systemic change or just small changes, — is something that kids can really learn. — Definitely. And like cuz these things show up in exclusion in classrooms in you know being you're too feminine, you're too masculine, you're you know whatever it is — gender normative kind of expectations of affect identity experience learning right all of that right so having you know strong skills and recognition and knowing what to say to start the conversation is the first step kind of moving this forward — and also I think adults who are raising and teaching kids to help people not only see things through their own ### Segment 6 (25:00 - 30:00) [25:00] lens. — Yes. Right. — Because I mean how many of us, you know, I say this from like in the other perspective like I grew up in New Jersey and a very white Irish Catholic neighborhood, you know, and I'm a gay Jewish guy. So I was like I didn't think about that as a kid. Yeah. I wasn't conscious. I was I probably was conscious of the you know people operate and relate to each other in a different way than I do but there were no opportunities that I can remember you know around like that like discussions around people are different people have this — right — you know it was like you know in therapy when I was older trying to figure out how to deal with it as opposed to the conditions that could have been to support healthy development — right and you know and um it really does start with that awareness piece and what I am teaching in the book is not only your self-awareness but also the kind of recognition of the social awareness of the you know diversities of experiences around you and that each and every one of us can play a role in shifting it and these changes can be small and these conversations right they can have vary in grain size but they won't happen if we don't ask and we won't know what happened until we do, right? So, we have to kind of start and you know, I know I've learned so much, you know, working with you over the years and we think about regulation and co-regulation. We know that the most common emotion regulation strategy when you're feeling signs of discomfort is to avoid. We know that we are likely to avoid. And I draw our attention to this as I move through the kind of a effect of science line in the book of well maybe it's the case that our own discomfort is what keeps us from letting the way we're doing things kind of continue to sustain and perpetuate in our school systems right we kind of know oh that could be different but like that's going to be so much work and I don't know am I the person to do this or am I going to get in trouble lose my job is someone going to hate I mean all the things that happen right in our systems that keep it there so we avoid it. But if we avoid it, we're not entering into the conversation. We're not even giving it the opportunity to change. And I've been really privileged to hear from educators all over who are telling me that they just wish they had somebody share this science with them when they started teaching, right? Because they see it now and they're like, "Well, now I can't unsee it now that you said it. " — And so now I'm going to do something about it. Well, and it makes me think also about the individual who if it's a physical disability. Um, I'm just using that as an example. Um, let's say there's only one person with that challenge in a room of 30. You know, this not the guilt or the perception of, you know, I'm the problem, right? I I'm the one. I'm everybody. I'm the one who needs accommodation. Look at me. And like that mindset that kind of because of the way we operate in society, it kind of like metastasizes, I think, as you grow older. — It could, right? It could in our most kind of horrible and dangerous of situations. And similarly, parents and families, right, the systems around the young person with their kind of like respective diversity of need may be socialized to feel like they're actually bothering the doctor or bothering the teacher when asking for the supports that their child requires to thrive. And this is where that apologetic piece comes in. And I've heard this from parents and families all over that, right? They're like, I always feel like I have to start with I'm sorry when I'm asking a medical professional or, you know, the educational leader for additional supports for my young person when like we don't need to dismiss ourselves and our family's needs, right? That doesn't that's not very whole child social and emotional learning of us, right? To do that, right? We need to be affirming and validating. No, this is a real need. And you know what? if you meet my need, you're probably also going to meet, you know, 20% of that classroom or that, you know, school's need as well in thinking about how we can be flexible in what we do so that we create um conditions where all kids have, you know, opportunity to learn and thrive. — Yeah. I'm thinking now, this is a totally different um perspective, not perspective, uh example. um years ago when I lived in New York City in this apartment building. Of course, I was on the board, which I don't know why I did that, but I did. And um you know it was an old building that had two steps going down but old New York City building — and um there was a person who lived in a building who had needs physical needs or you know um a disability where it was a lot of effort for them to get in and out ### Segment 7 (30:00 - 35:00) [30:00] of the building. Um, and the building, you know, was built obviously in the 1920s or 30s. And so these the door men in the building would have to bring this big ramp in. And it was, you know, the person would have to wait about 10 minutes and then they'd have to wait when they came in 10 minutes. — And so the board meeting was about, are we going to put in the electric this thing to help this person and other people eventually, — you know, be able to enter and leave the building — with comfort, you know, and ease. And I have to tell you, it was like a movie of like that's gonna make the building look ugly. — I was waiting for you to say it. Yep, there it is. Right. Because it must be the case, right? That brings down the value, right? And how people Sorry, go ahead. You can continue. — No, no. And it was like this whole thing. And I'm just sitting there thinking like, I can't believe we're having this conversation. Like, like I don't understand how anybody could be comfortable in this meeting knowing that we have someone living in this building who has needs and supports that, you know, we're now making that aren't fixable. — Well, I mean, that's legal, right? We can talk about ADA compliance and all the things in place, right? That's legal andor, you know, the ways in which that's structured. But beyond that, how do we as human beings arrive at a place where we are comfortable dismissing the existence, the livelihoods, the opportunities of another human being, right? These are these big essential questions that, you know, we're all wrestling with within our career of like where and how does that happen across the lifespan and what are our opportunities to interrupt it by shifting in how people see things, right? And so many people in the disability community will talk about how you know some of the experiences that happened at scale with co 19 and what was going on and like kind of the you know the ways in which your like everyday life got completely upended because of all the you know safety precautions and the technologies and your workflow like everything shifted and there are many folks across disability community have said like well that was your you know experience at scale of what it's like to live in a system that wasn't designed with you and your livelihood in anymore, — right? And so, what can we do now that we have had that experience to shift it so that we can all see our opportunity to thrive and see our value in what we're able to engage in. Mhm. Chris, I'm curious and this is uh we can decide whether or not we include this after I ask you the question and you are comfortable not to answer it is you know we're living in a country and in a society right now where it's like just every day we see injustices. — Yes. — I'm going to give you the one that I witnessed and I'm just curious like how do I apply your principles to it? So, I was giving a speech in a school district outside of Chicago. Um, and during that presentation, um, you know, I'm talking about ruler, emotional intelligence, etc., one of the principles said, "I have to leave, um, because ICE is outside the school with rifles and masks and the kids are breaking out in the school because they're afraid they're going to be followed home, you know, etc., etc. " And it was a moment in my career where I'm thinking like you know we as academics who get funding from the government need to be apolitical you know but it's really hard to be to not like be like what the hell is going on here right now? How do you what is your how do we how do we as academics who work in the real world witnessing you know societal level challenges that need fixing and repairing what are your recommendations — yeah thank you so much for this Mark and I'm sorry to hear that you had that experience that whole community was going through it and I was also traveling in Chicago this fall and kind of had similar types of interactions there within um regarding ice and the rates that were occurring around school systems. I um so a couple of things. So one, there's a difference between, you know, being a science communicator and being an academic and situating your academics in a space that is nonpartisan, — right? So thinking about like how it has the opportunity — that's different than being quiet or being complacent when lives, livelihoods are being erased. Mhm. — That is I will you know stand firm on the distinction there within. And so if you have the opportunity, if you are a person of privilege, right, we were talking about this before and you recognize that you are there in that moment. It's not only an opportunity, it's an obligation. — Yeah. To say something to call to ### Segment 8 (35:00 - 40:00) [35:00] — Yeah. To say something to call call — in to invite each other in. What's happening, what you're seeing, what you're experiencing from your vantage point can be different. Yeah. — Right. We can do this differently and we can engage in dialogue together to solve it. But what's I'll tell you what's not going to work, right? And you know, I talk about this in the book. There's lots of examples of this in our country right now and across the world. the call out, the cancel culture, the, you know, kind of cancelling the um ways in which we are, you know, glorifying the problem and or like, you know, putting people up on pedestals or cancelling them, right? That's not going to kind of make anyone's lives better. It's not going to help anyone in the long term. It's certainly not going to bring us closer together around a common humanity. But when you have the privilege and the opportunity, I it's an obligation to say something. — Yeah. — I agree. And I did um and I you know I did my whatever I could do in that you know afterwards in terms of — the way I like to the way I thought about it was that you know we're causing like trauma in children and you know this is lifelong trauma that is going to really impact our society long term and their you know individual health and immune systems and you know relationships all this kind of stuff — right I We know, right, our science demonstrates time and time again that no matter what is happening in that school system and how great the programming is and how exceptional the teacher is, right, that child will not learn if they don't feel safe. Correct? — They're just not available to learn. And so we can do as much as we can from a prevention and intervention standpoint in our work, but we have to situate that in the larger context of that community. And right now there are many school communities where many members of them do not feel safe. Yeah. — And so they're not learning. — And so there's this speaking up that we can do. What else comes to like how do we apply, you know, your unapologetically impatient model to the larger systemic, you know, I see it more clearly as you're a mom. You know, I've seen we've had conversations. I've seen you talk about, you know, when you're traveling the challenges with that. um that feels more manageable like from like Chris the mom can call can do this because there's one particular need that needs to be met but when you're noticing you know and obviously there are more children like yours but um when you're sitting in a at a like this kind of larger macro system piece — I'm curious how we can all work better together to make the larger policy changes — um that we know are going to that we need. — Yeah. So I contend it's one person and one interaction at a time and you can be strategic about it. You may have a broader vision of where that's going to go in your school system, your district and you know health care at the university. But you have to start with one, right? The first conversation and maybe that conversation has to happen a few times and it has a follow-up email and a phone call and then you find an ally. You bring a friend to the next one and you find, you know, a community group they're within or here's the parents who are operating outside of the school system and I'm going to talk to them next, right? You're going to snowball it. And actually in the book I talk about this how we start with the smallest grains. I recommend you start with you, your grain size, where you're at in that interaction, — and then allow it to grow as you see the opportunities from your vantage point — to shift the way you do things. Like, I don't believe that most systems and structures that we all operate in were designed to, you know, create unjust experiences for people. I don't believe that they were started with the intention, like not all of them anyway, to be like have this, you know, these deep bedded inequities. I do believe that many of them have evolved into that — over time and socialize there within and but we can evolve too and meet the moment — to shift them. — Well, it also makes me think about I in an earlier podcast I interviewed the basist from Guns and Roses. His name is Duff McCagan and I asked him a similar question about something else because he had drug addiction and we were talking about that. But um and he's like, "You know, Mark, I can't really think that big. " Like it's feels like so much. It's like that's I'm only one dude like in Seattle — and I can, you know, I have my family I can communicate with. I've got my friends and my community I can communicate with. You know, I'm lucky I'm in a band so I can get messages out in the, you know, in the concerts. Um but my hope is that the um ### Segment 9 (40:00 - 45:00) [40:00] that you know it'll grow from that space you know and it just grows and grows and grows and grows. So if we're raising, you know, a generation of children who are comfortable and feel like they have the inner power, I'll call it, to speak up and to talk about the injustices, you know, I think it will make a big difference like you're talking about. — Thank you. I certainly hope so. And you know, the book, you know, the by line is to, you know, to the mindset required to change the way we do things. And I do believe that right now in our society, in the world we're all raising our kids in that, you know, the way hearing that that's just the way we do things is like the most dangerous — phrase. But I think it can be switched. I think it could really be — what we're known for. It can actually be the most powerful of phrases that yes, this is how we do things. We show up for each other. We call each other in. We use these evidence-based strategies in our everyday interactions. We recognize our body's early warning systems. And we recognize that we all have room to grow and to shift what we say, how we say it, how we see things to create better conditions for everybody to thrive in. I really do believe it. And seeing how the seeds of hope are being planted as the book is spreading gives me a great deal of hope that, you know, we're on to something that it will it will, you know, move us in a more healthy direction for all kids. The other piece that I think is important is this idea of calling people in, not out. Because I mean, we've all seen together collectively the challenges when there's an automatic assumption about someone and also the um the goal when you're bringing someone in and you'll correct me if I'm wrong here from your perspective. I'm speaking for you right now is when you're calling someone in, you're inviting them to understand your perspective and to help them see what might be possible. When you're calling someone out, you're essentially othering and blaming and saying, you know, you're not you don't care. It's — or right or the assumption, right? But it's the how could you, why could you, right? the you know and and I get it like that comes from a place of anger right and rage in the experiences and I you know me a long time I can certainly get hot I talk about this in the book I have yelled more times than I'm proud of but that doesn't solve anything it does not invite anyone else in with us to change it and in these systems we need each other parents need each other educators and parents and school community right we need each other in the medical system we need to be working together and centering the experiences of that young person andor that classroom community. And we can't do that when we put each other on the defense, — right? Because then you're not listening to learn with each other. You're just listening to win in the interaction and they've now positioned each other as being, you know, a problem andor fill in the blank with whatever stereotypes have come with that given parent, family, community. And it's not going to be any better for that young person, for that child. And in CA, you know, in some cases in the research, right, it shows that it travels across their school career or, you know, I was talking with our mutual colleague Robin a couple of weeks ago about this of like what happens in the medical space with that when you know when you're you your family like how it could turn into a stereotype that gets perpetuated and follows a young person. And so we can invite each other in, but it requires an attention to what we say and how we say it and an intention to do it right. you really need to be mindful of it. And so I give these scripts in the book of like where to start and how to try it. And it's slow and it will shift what you say and how you say it, but I promise it's worth it, right? You can see the change. And I'm not talking about you said, you know, big I'm not saying that we start with these big boulders of systems of change. — It's the small step that starts it — in the interaction and then you can grow it. But you need to have a partner in order to do that. — And I like the idea that it's really like the mindset is the beginning. — Yeah. — Exactly. — And then the skill sets, you know, etc., etc. The um so what you know after writing this obviously you're still doing your research and everything. Um, what is your biggest hope short term? Like where where is this going in ### Segment 10 (45:00 - 50:00) [45:00] the next year or two? So um short term I hope that everyone who accesses the content of the book whether they read the book listen to the book my audio books actually I think it just came out today so audio book and right they hear it they listen to it or they learn about it in a professional development or a training program that they see that they have agency and that their vantage point is an asset — and then they have the skills available the skills and strategies at their disposal to start to grow in what they say and how they say it. that we will begin to affect change. — Okay. And for yourself, you know, when you put yourself out there, which you've always been comfortable with and which I think is fantastic. Um I do. Um — I don't think I've ever been comfortable with it, but I appreciate you saying that, Mark. I have incredible imposter syndrome, but okay. — Well, that's all right. We can you know, you can re That's something that you maybe we can all suppress. That's one area of suppression that way we can suppress. We won't suppress other things but um the um or use it you know channel it um but uh you know what have you learned not only about like what let's start with yourself you know what's what is um what's the big takeaway for Chris after doing this? Gosh. Well, I I appreciate the question. A couple of things. So, I think about how it's confirmed [clears throat] what I thought I knew about myself before, which is that I thrive when I'm busy. — I didn't wait till I was on sobatical to write the book. I just said, "This is when I'm going to write the book. " And I wrote the book alongside — all the other things going on research wise. — Um, so from a kind of functional standpoint, that was big. I think the second one is that I could show up as my whole authentic self in a scholarly way and be validated and affirmed. And I'd say that's maybe something that has been more of an evolution for me in navigating the higher education and public scholarship arenas — in what's kind of accepted, embraced, and you know, as a white presenting woman, as a mom, what to say, where to say it, how to show up. And this book is my most authentic scholarly piece — ever to come forward. It's the you know combination of 15 years of my science development and many lectures that I've given over the course of that time and to see how it's be landing for people and the ways in which it's having the opportunity to grow and plant these seeds of hope. I um I've been deeply validated by that. — Nice. Love that. — Thank you. And if you were to think about now that it's written, it's published, you've talked about it, is there a piece that in 2. 0 you're going to add into it? — Not add into it, but I have started my second book. — So definitely Yeah, I think maybe you know a thing about this. You write your first book and you're like, "Oh, yeah. I'm going to do that. " And then I know where I'm going next with this. So, where I'm going next, it'll have some sort of tile title be around the idea of on becoming and interrupting them. — And so, I really — I didn't get the last word. I'm sorry. — Yeah, it'll be called on becoming and interrupting them. — Okay. — Because I know from our work, from the work in, you know, the science of learning and development that people don't go into caring professions do to become them. you know, the dehumanizing and the ways they're making choices or decisions that are not in the best interests of families or the way they're responding to the students they see right in front of them and the young people is right perpetuating unjust systems. No one goes into medicine, education, industry to become them. But somewhere along the way in the socialization of systems and our adult development, many arrive there. And so I'm going my next book will be kind of unpacking and then interrupting it on what we could do from a training level for future educators, medical professionals and caring professionals so that we can interrupt that trajectory um through being unapologetically impatient. — Love it. — Thanks. Um so as we wrap our time together here where um if you were to take kind of everything that we've spoken about and people are going to do one thing different in regard to the work that you're writing about tomorrow. What will that be? First thing, listen for when you say, "I'm sorry," in an interaction and when you hear other people apologizing to you. ### Segment 11 (50:00 - 50:00) [50:00] — Map it out. Write it out. Is it always with your boss, your teacher, your partner, your family, on the phone? And who's saying it to you? Are they saying they're sorry for things that they can change? you can't change? Right? We could start there. Start with the recognition of hearing yourself and hearing others in their use of the apology. — Love it, Chris. Um, always love talking with you. So excited for this book to have come out and, um, I'm really happy to hear that it's getting, you know, the recognition that it deserves. — Thank you so much, Mark. Really appreciate this conversation.