Inside How Figma Builds AI Products | Yuhki Yamashita (CPO Figma)

one of the things that I think is really helpful for a PM is to realize that you know the way that they can help a designer is actually to think about the constraints that are producing a particular design because sometimes like a design might not make sense but it might be because the designer is operating under the wrong constraints maybe they have to stick to this design system or they're limited what they're able to explore because they've been told that they have to kind of like just stick to these box or there's some feasibility thing so that's one thing I think a lot about and encourage DMS to think about which is like hey like you can be a partner even as you're critiquing a design by kind of critiquing the constraints rather the design itself so that's kind of one thing I think about and then you know the other thing is like really speaking in the language of users right like when I think about you know some PM designer interactions apms are very oriented around goals and kpis but when I think about designer they're so human- centered and so how do you actually you know shift to the language more towards what a user is feeling or you know what goal they're trying to acheve or particular user Journey my guest today is Yuki Yamashita Chief product officer at figma Yuki and I talked about how figma created a culture where employees love their craft how they build AI products to solve real user problems and how they plan to make design accessible to everyone Yuki is a fantastic Storyteller and shares an inside look at how figma's amazing producct culture works if you enjoy our conversation please like And subscribe to support the podcast all right well welcome Yuki really glad to have you here yeah thanks for having me Peter yeah you know since you work at figma let's start this question you probably have managed both PMs and designers I'm curious if you have any thoughts on you know how PMs can be great partners for designers and vice versa yeah have a lot of thoughts on this I mean I think for a PM you know one of the things that I think about is you know when I've written a lot about this but basically you know it's very easy to kind of critique designs and make it feel really personal or really get detailed but one of the things that I think is really helpful for a PM is to realize that you know the way that they can help a designer is actually to you know think about the constraints that are producing a particular design because sometimes like a design might not make sense but it might be because the designer is operating under the wrong constraints maybe they have to stick to this design system or they're Limited in what they're you know what they're able to explore because they've been told that they have to kind of like just you know stick to these B this box or there's some feasibility thing so that's one thing I think a lot about and encourage PMS to think about which is like hey like you can actually be a partner even ask you're critiquing a design by kind of critiquing the constraints rather in design itself so that's kind of one thing I think about and then you know the other thing is like really speaking in the language of users right like when I think about you know some PM designer interactions PMS are very oriented around goals and kpis but when you think about designer they're so human centered and so how do you actually you know shift the language more towards what a user is feeling or you know what goal they're trying to achieve or particular user Journey so those are some things that I think a PM can do to be a better partner to a designer and then in terms of a designer I think that you know recognizing that you know PMS are often thinking about like goals they're thinking about tradeoffs right and you know surfacing also borrowing from some of that language and you know Julie Jo has a lot of great tips um that she's written about that I really love about how you know um designers can contemplate the way PMS think and like I think you know I really highly encourage people to read that as well I think the traditional PM BR has been all about you know moving the numbers and right that kind of stuff and but I think one of figma's values is love your craft so H how do you kind of scream PMS for this value like during the hiring process yeah I

mean it's really interesting like sometimes it's very self-evident right like in some cases you know we've had PMS share some of their work or you know do a short assignment and you know kind of attention to detail they might have or even the attention to like these small little things that you a user might care about like those the passion for that when that shines through it's really obvious that like you know they really care about those kinds of details and they don't need a met to tell them to care so there are some subtle cues like that and then you know I think the other thing is just whether or not you really get excited about building great user experiences right and I think like some people are just really just are thrilled to like create amazing experiences and others are doing it in service of a goal and you know I think some people you know when I find people who just inherently want to make the experience better for the user who are very natural at thinking about of like through the users eyes like there's people who tend to also quote love your craft but yeah those are some things I look for got it and you know with your PM org like how do you balance this craft value with moving the numbers with maybe like internal Optics like having a great product review didn't or something like how do you evaluate your PMS with all this stuff yeah yeah I mean

hopefully it's not about the product review per se right but I mean I think that everyone has goals right and it's just that sometimes those go goals are much more measurable and sometimes those goals are a little bit less measurable and high level and so for me it's really about you know are you setting good goals and demonstrating your ability to hit them even if it's not always like completely perfect how you measure it right so that's kind of the thing and so even when we do things like you know building great user experiences it comes from a place of oh I want to solve this particular problem or I want to address this sentiment from the community and so are ways in which we want to have confidence that after having launched it you know you actually met those goals so those definitely are ways in which like I evaluate MMS right because what we're trying to do is solve problems and you know these should solve the problems and it's just the case that unfortunately not every problem is as measurable as others but that's okay and that shouldn't prohibit you from being a good PM so like are there some cases where like you don't run AB test for everything you just get qualitive feedback or like measure how you the problem some other way definitely I mean you know like there are many cases where you know it's there might be actual physical constraints of why you can't run that experiment and so you know maybe we don't want to create a experiment that randomly creates new types of Primitives that we'll have to support forever if we choose to deprecate it right so that might be an example of you know wanting to be put people in a beta environment first and just test it there before kind of making a call or you know there may be things that we have just absolute conviction of because we've been spending so much time with users in which case we're more comfortable doing kind of like a pre-post analysis or something like that so it's definitely a wide array of things that we do that aren't experiments but you know for nowadays it's easy to just roll stuff out too so like you know uh it's not like we you know carelessly launch stuff and just hope for the best I think there's uh responsible ways to do it too got it so you also question about you know how PM should be responsible for the why right like why is this problem more important than other problems to solve and yeah I was wondering if you have any tips for folks on how to become better at like storytelling and explaining the

why to people yeah I mean I think the I kind of look for this in an interview too which is like can I explain the why of something to someone who's not even in the company who's unfamiliar with this problem at hand because that person will have a lot of like have a deeper stack of Lies so to speak right it's like you know why are we working on this problem well because of this other problem why does that even exist in the first place you know because of these conditions and why is that important to the business and so you know when you can go all the way back to someone who's external to your company can understand why you're doing something then you've done something right in terms of being able to kind of explain everything and I think for me it kind of comes down to like a particular pm skill set which is being able to use or wear someone else's shoes and you know can you kind of sometimes I kind of conceptually wipe my brain of context and build up the case again from that wiped out state so that I'm not operating on all these assumptions that like are kind of implicitly in my head that some other people might not know about got it so it's kind of about detaching and kind of recognizing who your audience is right like explain a way that they can understand exactly and you know I think like there's so many layers to it right like you know the company all hens that you do might be different in terms of the level of why you have to explain from your immediate team who has a lot of shared context or your customers might need to kind of understand a different level of why and so I think that's you're absolutely right like knowing your audience is you know a story is written for someone who's listening to the story so the first thing you need to do is put yourself in the shoes of someone who's going to hear your story right and just kind of close on this like do you like when you give a big speech at config or something do you like talk L to yourself to practice or how do you get ready for explaining the why yeah I mean I spend a lot of time actually on the kind of the storyboard or the outline and basically saying okay how does everything flow together and also you know it's not just the word it's the visuals that you're using right sometimes there's a very succinct way to show something and your you your visuals can also create a kind of and Rhythm and so you know I actually spend more time in my head planning out like how the story is laid out refactoring the story and I spend a much less time actually practicing it I mean I should probably practice it more but like you know like it's the weight is more on like the planning and the architecting rather than just like the delivery but you know that's just me stylistically and certainly you know there are people who are much better at delivery than me who probably are you have a different balance but it kind of speaks to the importance of like the storyboard and feeling like those frames are right got it interesting making a user Journey where you're building a product to a certain extent same concept yeah all right so let's talk about this big AI release that you're doing for fake jam and maybe we can start with how fake Jam like briefly evolved from figma in the first place may

remember it's the height of the pandemic we had quarantine and there are a lot of people using figma in figma design as they call it in really interesting ways people were having happy hours there you know and just hanging out and playing games they're running Retros and meetings and standups and you know it was kind of this interesting way to have this third space if you will where you know it was an immersive enough environment but it wasn't kind of it wasn't overbearing but you could get kind of get everyone engaged because you could see people's cursors you could react you know you could kind respond in real time to things so we just found that a lot of our customers and people in our community were using figma in this really interesting way and that gave us the inspiration to think well these use cases are actually useful for a lot of different people not just designers and the reality is like actually two-thirds of our weekly actives are non-designers anyway right so what could it mean to build a use the tool that's more tailored for them and so we started pushing on that idea and that was the emergence of fig Jam which we brought into beta the next during 2021 and since then it's been really cool to see people take it in very different directions whether it's some of the things that you would might expect like you know creating brainstorms and user flows and you know diagrams and things like that all the way to running uh all sorts of meetings that maybe have nothing to do with product design or product development but it's just more engaging because people can do really have light lightweight ways to interact or engage give a thumbs up you know emote fire whatever that might look like so that's been you know the evolution of to fake Jam I will say that of the meetings that I've had with fake Jam has been the best meetings cuz like the product itself is just so fun to use uh I don't know if you guys have fun as a core principle early on or it just you know you let the designer just make it fun yeah well it

was really interesting because it actually was I distinctly remember this was two months before we were launching like fake Jam to Beta where we had a board meeting where the board was asking us you know what is the differentiator for fig Jam because there are a lot of other white board tools out there and Dylan said well it's the fact it's fun you know and then you know we actually were like wait it's not fun enough we need to really lean into that so you know Emily and Jenny who are the product and design leaders on fig Jam actually ran a Sprint they called it fig Jam fun jam and they came up with all the features like you know cursor chat and emoting and all these things that didn't actually exist in February of 2021 two months before we launched so you're absolutely right fun was the principle with the hypothesis that you know actually a lot of workplace tools are a little bit boring you know you kind of get confined in your box maybe like you know you have to really feel like you put a lot of effort in to express yourself and we're kind of saying hey here's an infinite canvas they're really lightweight ways to express yourself or you know react to things and you can get as creative as you want and have all the space to do it so I think that was it's worked out in terms of like the hypothesis around being bringing fun to the workplace actually is really helps you know engagement which is a really important part of you know getting things done yeah I love it and I'm sure it must have been fun to build too so let's talk about the AI features uh maybe you can briefly explain what they are and maybe like how this project even got started in the first place yeah yeah well I'll tell you how it started you know we had this big AI hackathon earlier this year and you know somebody built this amazing we had a lot of actually cool ideas but uh a particular one that we all already loved was this called jambot and jambot is this visual way in which you can you know take a sticky for example plug it into jambot and jamot can do different things it can rewrite that sticky it can turn that sticky into an entire story or Haiku you know and then you can keep iterating on it and say hey actually make this more fun or change the tone or things like that and it was this really interesting way to visually explore your creativity right and you know whereas before like in something like J gbt you're going back and forth and you know in via text and that's super fun too but there's something visual that was interesting or creating Forks in the road of like oh what if I go this direction or that direction what could it look like and tracing back all your steps in this kind of like immersive way that was really fun so that was kind of what started and you know we got a lot of usage out of it and people were really intrigued and you know obviously motivated us to think about okay how do we bring these features even more natively and then the other kind of like motivation was just like you know one of the thought experiments that I always had was you know fig Jam can be intimidating in a weird way because you can arrive at this in Infinite Canvas and like how do I actually get started like you know it sounds cool to run a meeting in fig Jam but like I don't know how to do that and one con concept we kind of pitched internally was there are some people in our company who are really great at making great fig Jam boards and that are like make the meetings really fun and efficient you know there's Emily and Jenny on my team they're the P like product lead and design lead for fig jam and you know like we always like it would be so great if we could just deploy Emily and Jenny to every single team out there you know like and it's like send them in a box and send them to every customer and so Emily and Jenny in a box kind of became a meme and we're like wait AI actually can help do this like you know we know some of the best practices we know what you know great meetings look like what if it could be easy to be like here's what the kind of meeting I'm trying to run and like you know like what could that template look like or you know how could I get a file to that state States I can go from there so that was kind of the first thing of like you know there was a distinct you know user need of like feeling like it's a lot of work to facilitate meeting how do we make that faster and then there are these other obvious workflow things that you know people were really always like asking us for which is you run this really big brainstorm and it's great it's generative but as you know brainstorms can be really messy it's like where do you go from there once you've gotten your entire team to give you a hundred different ideas right and usually like what you do is you want to

kind of vote on the best ideas but even you know figuring out well what are we even voting on is actually like a manual process of like okay these ideas seem very like similar and depending on how you cluster them it can actually affect the b or you know and that's what kind of forces to think about okay what could it mean for AI to help sort you know ideas and stickies into key themes and then you know summarizations and everything which is it's really great to have this amazing brainstorm or session in a fig file but it's always you know every great meeting ends with well what are next steps and so you know like being able to summarize what happened in a pretty objective manner like which gives you some a really great starting point for identifying okay like here are the things that need to happen or here is what happened and be able to even like do something like copy paste that into slack really easily you know those are some of Keyser problems we saw in fig Jam independent of AI and AI just so happen to like be a really effective and efficient way to solve that got it so you know building a AI product is a pretty winding path as you know right like so maybe you can share a moment in during a process where it was like particularly challenging or like it's really tough in bu this product totally yeah I mean there are many moments like when we looked at some of the summaries that were being generated and we're like wait a minute like there're 10 stickies and the summary has 10 bullets like that's not really helpful or you know we created these templates look really primitive like you know like it's not that much better than people randomly putting some stuff down and so I think one of the things that we really had to learn was how do you actually and this is actually especially Tri for PM like how do you actually really get involved in terms of owning quality right because I think sometimes it's easy to look at Ai and think of it as a blackbox right and you say okay well either it figures it out or it doesn't and I don't have too much control over it because like you know it's you just don't exactly understand how it works it's not deterministic and you know I found that you know and even my myself like having been new to building these kinds of

features it's really easy to kind of feel intimidated or feel like it's not really my job to debug what's happening in the box right but actually like if you can take a much more proactive role in owning quality and say hey this is not good enough or actually this is the kind of output that we want you know it becomes an exercise even with your engineers around like oh what are the prompts that could be like designed to like better produce that right and just really understanding what are we feeding and what's coming back and what would we prefer to come back how can we exercise more creativity around like what we're feeding in the first place so I think there's just kind of this journey of realizing how to get involved in a way that I think a lot of our opms went through as part of this process including myself yeah I think I'm not sure about your experience but like it kind of requires like a lot of manual work right just like improving the prompt and seeing the output and doing it again I don't know if the team was had to yeah I mean it's kind of like a debugging mindset in a way but you know once you kind of realize that is actually the core part of the product job like sometimes you're like you think your only job is to define the user experience and like the golden the happy path but actually your core job in these cases is actually like you know like that trial and error yeah and did you get the users involved too to look for edge cases or try to have it go off the rails for sure yeah I mean like you know I we a big culture of you know dog fooding internally and you know so that was kind of the first step of course but we released you know this to a small group of alpha users too you know and I know you got access and thank you for you know trying it out but like you know those are the ways in which we start to understand what works what doesn't or you know even like what's good enough or you know whether people are actually encountering like real aha moments but yeah okay and how do you decide when this product was good enough to ship I think you B a bunch of features together for this right so like how do you just general sense yeah I mean I think that like the biggest thing is like there's a portfolio of things right like there's some things that for example in the cases around generating a template it's great from going from zero to one um but at the same time you know maybe some people don't need that but what people really need is something that's like more deeply integrated to their today's workf flows like you know running a brainstorm and summarizing that so I think there's kind of this portfolio approach of okay like what kinds of users can we hit and like can we have a package that kind of like can feel useful to anyone you know regardless of how they use it so I think there's a little bit of like bundling we wanted to do to have a bit of a moment versus just you know ship a bunch of you know things in succession but that was really kind of more of a you know like bundling strategy I guess but when it comes to feeling good about you know it's Readiness like there's just a lot of like it was based on what our customers are telling us and even two weeks before there's a lot of you know feedback around quality that we were unsure of and so yeah it was a little bit of a roller coaster ride and we also acknowledge that it's you know it's actually just a work in progress right like we're going to learn a lot and people are going to tell us that scale like when it breaks down for them or we're going to be able to tell what kind of queries that people are trying and as a result of that you know hopefully we get better too and so that's the hope with a feature like this so like what would you say is like success from the launch is it just seen people come out to use it again or just like see all the new use cases people might have yeah I mean I think a few things right one is you know more than just people continue to use it again I mean that's like a secondary metric that like you know show like feature retention is a good proxy like but at the end of the day it's like are they getting their job done right and there are people who were never able to facilitate a meeting that maybe you know this lowered the activation energy for doing so and that's really kind of wonderful from we activated a user help them understand what fig Jam was about or you know like maybe that meeting where it was you know unclear what next steps were or you know like the likelihood that people run another brainstorm again because they found it effective place like those are the ultimate use cases we care about versus just like using AI like I really think that AI helps with product understanding and help people get things done effectively or more efficiently but like you know that those are the things that I look for as the first category of like what we want to do um but the second category is also learning which is that you know we have our community has you know has a really wild imagination right like they come up with all sorts of cool stuff and so when we start looking at you know what are people trying to do at fig Jam that's really interesting for us too to see okay what are they trying to generate maybe we don't do a good enough job on some of those use cases like does that Inspire us to think a little bit differently about like the use cases we want to enable and you know fig Jam at the end of the day is like can it's a Infinite Canvas that people can do anything on in a sense and so I think having more visibility into what people are trying is going to give us a lot of good inspiration for directions awesome yeah I'll tell you my personal experience so you know at my current company usually the designers use fig Jam to run like a brainstorming session and yeah usually people love it but then people like me get intimidated like wow this designer came with such a good template it's like I'll never be able to use f Jam the same way so I think there's a lot of upside here feat that's absolutely Our Hope yeah awesome so

something else I would have chat about is I think figma's missions to make design accessible to everyone right so how do you cater to power users but keep the product simple enough for people like me who don't really know what they're doing how do you balance these two yeah I mean it's definitely a theme that we've been grappling with a lot and in fact we have some initiatives going on that are addressing this right now but you know I think that like a couple things right like you want to make sure that you balance streamlining and but also not make it feel like it's dumb down like that's kind of the trade-off I think that you're alluding to right and you know there are a lot of like industry ways to solve this right like is it Progressive disclosure like are there things like shortcuts you know are there other ways in which you can kind of like expose the right functionality at the right time and I think all those are viable Solutions and all those are things we think about at least on Sigma we there's a particular Dimension that we look at which is you know one of the ways in which we add a lot of power today is via Design Systems you know we add a lot of like powerful Design Systems features like we did in cona user conference earlier this year like variables right and you know they make Design Systems more powerful um because it gives Design Systems managers way more control but also you know it kind of gives people these components that they're much easier to use and our hope is as we add more power we differentiate between the people creating these Design Systems and people consuming these Design Systems because you know hopefully in a world where in the future someone whether a designer non-designer can arrive at their team's you know workpace and open up a sigtigma file and it just feels like you're just dragging in a bunch of Lego blocks to assemble a screen and get you really quickly started it should feel as simple as that um but on the other hand like really underneath the hood in order to make those simple feeling Lego blocks a lot of you know things needed to happen a lot of power needed to be created so we expose a lot of functionality and power to Design Systems creators so kind of in our heads we always say hey with Design Systems creation like maybe it's okay to add a little bit of complexity because they really want that control but for consumption it absolutely should feel like really simple I'm not saying we're fully there yet you know but like that's kind of a spiritually how we think about it for figma design and then for a fig gam we feel like it should always feel simple and that's why like you know there are a lot of product decisions that we've made that in ially are different from figma design in terms of like okay like well maybe instead of giving infinite Choice like we make more sensible defaults or you know things of this nature or like maybe we make this controls feel less like there's some powerful stuff on the properties panel on the right and rather something in line that feels like right there in and contextual and within reach or you know feels like you're directly manipulating something so those are some things that are really important for fig Jam as well what do you think is like the kind of like the magic moment for like a non designer using F figma you know it's like is it Mak something they're proud of themselves or yeah I mean I think you know oftentimes a non-designer is actually you know being brought into a file with a designer right and or opening up a file that designer made like that's you know what our data shows right and you know they're able to poke around and I mean certainly the Magic Moment is being able to just see things being updated in real time right but there's also ways in which for example like you open up a prototyp design file and your designer showing you around and you want to observe them right you want to follow them and then you kind of like they take over your screen and like they walk you through the file I think that's a pretty magical moment because it kind of really feels collaborative like it really feels like you're looking over the shoulder and they or maybe they're walking you through the hallway to show you some stuff like so those are pretty magical ways I think like another one that I really love is you know often times as a collaborator maybe your first do is something like a prototype right maybe it's a deck maybe it's a prototype and you're able to add some comments to it and the designer is able to see it in their view as an editor right and so they're just in the designs and they can respond to it immediately even though they're not necessarily in the Prototype with you and so those are some potential magic moments as well but you know our hope is like as you said like there's nothing more like fun than creating and making and I think like our aspirations to make it so that you know anyone feels comfortable doing that and there's a lot of work that still needs to be done to make it feel that way but you know that's definitely kind of like when I when you think of our mission what we're excited about my designer jokes that I'm like IC 0. 1 designer or something learning from her but like yeah like you know as someone who cares a lot about craft I wish I had better design skills so like for people like me who want to learn like what's the best way to learn this stuff we're still learning this stuff yeah well I

mean I feel like a couple things one is just like I find it I I'm the kind of you know there are a lot of people who are really good at learning and like can go watch a YouTube video can go read up on things and become better I'm unfortunately not one of those people like I either I need a project and I need to have someone to emulate or copy you know and I think like those are things I always looking for so for example it sounds like you have a wonderful designer who like you know you're learning from and like one of the things I used to always do is just like all drag which is like you know duplicating like something that they've already made and playing around with something and seeing if like you know there I have I always have ideas for like different things to try out it's always intimidating maybe to start from scratch but like if it's just like a tiny Fork of off of something that exists it's like the beginnings of something right and then you start wrestling with it and you're like oh okay I this is how you do it or like wait I don't understand how you changed this then it forces you to learn about like oh this is how a component works or oh this is layout and that's why things flow this way and so you throw yourself into something that already works and then you break it a little bit and then you know okay command Z okay that was messed up like but okay what was that and so I think those are ways that like I find the best way to learn in a sense right and um then the great thing I thinking about is like there is someone who can be in the file with you and if you have a patient enough friend or cooworker you know they can show you a few things so that's the way that I learned the most um just by just like diving in and trying and there are a lot of resources for example in the community where you can do that and I think that's why we think like there two things about Sigma that I think is like really been helpful for helping people learn faster and like the first thing is just the fact that it's kind of like open source like you know there's a figma file that someone was worked on you can just you know we have a community of figma files yeah and dive into it and just like inspect how it was done right like there's nothing more powerful than like starting with something rather than something scratch and the other thing is like it's in the browser right like you can you don't have to go at it alone and someone else can be in there helping you out so hopefully those two things make it a little bit easier but you know it's also our jobs to help you like kind of ramp up as well yeah I think getting my hands dirty and breaking things is the best way I learned too yeah so how do you let's close with two questions first

I have to hear about how you're using AI in your everyday life I guess both at work and also just like at home I mean you know it's really awesome to have fake Jam have ai right now because every single meeting basically in th Jam in some way right and sometimes there's this discuss happening or brainstorm happening I go often to the side and like I just want quickly summarize like what's happening or like we run these meetings sometimes with the PM team where we give a lot of asynchronous or it's kind of like a multi-threaded meeting right where people give a lot of updates and on like wins that they've had or you know shout outs that they want to give or stuff like that and we spend 10 minutes of heads down time just silently putting stuff and reacting to each other and as n has gotten bigger in our team like you know with like 30 40 PMS it's like I just kind of want to like take that and instead of like trying to read everything like just extract out key themes really quickly you know and so like those are some ways in which you know I've started to use AI even in meetings right um which is really cool so that's kind of like the first one and my you know personal life I think like one of the things that I find in at least the creative process is I think just the nature of the way I build things like I'm actually not like really you know I'm not good at drawing starting from scratch but I'm very good at like when there's some idea I can like refine from there and so I actually use you know as the first St for example like you know I design like logos for my softball team and the you know the jerseys on it and it's like okay there's some concept like what if there is this object place to this object well AI can generate that and then like I can refine from there and turn it into vector or whatever and so that's kind of a workflow I've started using um whereas before maybe it was just like you search around Google images and hope that a search term like kind of gets you some things that you need and you Cobble it together oh interesting yeah that's very interesting yeah it's really cool that you're still spending time on your craft it sounds like or at least using AI on your craft even though you're leading teams and like doing all this other stuff at work yeah well you know I think like one of the first questions we ask every fig Mage you know people at figma is like you know how are you a maker and I think we all have that itch to like create things and you know we find side projects or in my case sometimes it's just making decks you know where you kind of like release that kind of Desire or energy yeah I've been interviewing a bunch of folks I Al talk to Scott and yeah I would love to just shift this PM culture back to making as opposed to just like all the internal stuff and like alignment and stuff like that you know yeah sure yeah I guess to wrap up like figma's growing you've been a 4 years how do you keep this maker culture alive you know in the company man like instead of just a bunch of people in meetings aligning with each other right yeah well I mean I think a few things like one is you know we do try to hire people who love making inherently right and so like you know it's definitely true that as you get bigger there's a lot of other things that you have to do but like people are here because they love to make and get their hands dirty in a sense and like I'm that way Dylan's that way and so you know it's definitely a bias that we have in our culture I think there's some ways in which you have to create that like programmatically so for example at figma we have maker week and we say hey like the only thing requirement is like you make something and so some sometimes that means people make you know like product ideas or you know but then other times people are making you know their craft projects together or you know they're doing murals in the office together or things like that and I think those kinds of moments to pull out and be like super creative actually like get the juses flowing and a lot of ideas have emerged from that or a lot of creativity came comes out of that so those are some things that I think are really important to give space for because it's so easy to just be like overwhelmed by everything in front of you or the problem that you're solving and forget to take that kind of like you know exercise that part of your brain awesome