Build Your Spiky Point of View to Stand Out | Wes Kao (Co-Founder, Maven)

spiky point of view is your unique perspective on the topic of your expertise that other people other experts might disagree with so if you brought 20 marketers into a room and you say your spiky point of view 19 other people might disagree with it and they would have good reason for doing so the point is not to say something that is a mic drop controversial obviously you know crazy thing you know what you say has to be rooted in EV in rationale in a logical thought process my guest today is Wes cow co-founder of Maven a very popular online course platform Wes and I talked about how to create market and teach an online course to make $2,000 or more per cohort I especially love Wes's Frameworks about how to build a spiky point of view to stand out with real examples and use the state change method to keep people interested consider subscribing for more great interviews every week okay cool all right well welcome West thank you so much for making time for this you know you're the co-founder mayen maybe we can start by you can start by describing your journey from you know just working marketing at a startup to co-found this company just at a high level yeah well this year marks my 15 year anniversary of working full-time so it's been a pretty long journey but my foray into working with education I was at an adtech startup in SF for you know three four years and at the time I was looking for something new you know I was born and raised in the bay went to school in the bay and like many people who are from SF wanted to move to New York and so I serendipitously saw a

blog post from Seth Goden that he was looking for a special projects lead to work with him for six months to try to figure out what he should do next what big project should he work on what big area should he invest in and so on a wh I decided to apply to my surprise I ended up getting the role and I moved to New York and what was supposed to be a six Monon role ended up being three years of working side by side with Seth and creating the altmba so the altmba was one of the first mainstream cohort based courses that really kicked off this entire category this was in 2014 2015 when the main mode of online learning was asynchronous on demand so there udemy courses LinkedIn learning skillshare where you watch a bunch of videos by yourself there's not a lot of interaction there's no Community it's all self-paced and completion rates are super low it's around four to 6% completion and you know when Seth G and I were looking at the completion rates the impact that online learning could have we just thought this canot possibly be the Pinnacle of innovation for online learning that this we decided to flip the script on what online learning could look like so we decided to do literally the opposite of what a synchronous course does so instead of making the course free we made it expensive enough that you felt like you had skin in the game instead of making it a solo activity we made it a community-driven one instead of it being mainly passive learning consuming videos we made it entirely Project based and so this kicked off this movement towards core-based learning that you know years later with Maven 2022 I joined up with Gog and beion the co-founder of udemy and we started Maven and Maven was all about taking this trend of core-based learning to the masses you know before it was if you were an author like Seth Goden you had a big audience you know afterwards I worked with the co-founders of morning Brew to help them create their course Professor Scott gallway to design his course the co-founder of masterclass on his new company outlier all these people had big audiences or

access to distribution channels or access to budget but if you were an expert who knew your craft really well it was still hard for you to teach online though to put your materials online to figure out the logistics the administrative aspects the technical aspects of stitching together so many different programs just to be able to have this fairly complex digital product and so the vision behind Maven was let's open up access and demog critize who gets to teach online by making it really easy to do so on the instructor side and then on the student side let's open access to the kinds of people you can learn from you shouldn't only be able to learn from you know professors in University or Executive Education or you know people who have decided to become full-time Traders there are a bunch of operators who are in-house or who are Consultants who are coaches who are Executives who have on the ground real World experience that you know unless you report to them at Amazon or Facebook or at Kickstarter or wherever else you're not getting to benefit from their sharpness and their learnings and all the things that they've learned and so we wanted to bring those experts out of the woodwork and allow students to be able to learn directly from people like Sam par at the hustle now at HubSpot or sha Pur or Lee Jinn or Lenny ritky Shian Barry who was previously at PayPal and intercom so bringing a lot of these experts online so that students can get really targeted on the ground learnings whenever they want and wherever they are in their careers that's awesome yeah there's like a lot of really good knowledge trapped inside companies you know like I said The Operators are in these companies and they have a lot to share with the world but I think one of the things that has help some people back is like you know unfortunately I feel like employers still have this like sensitivity around people just like creating content online or at least that's what I've seen like do you have any advice for you know operators who want to teach courses or do something online to kind of work with their employer to make this happen or like the the matter yeah do you have any advice on that yeah I'm curious what you think also because you're also inh house and yeah so we have a lot of instructors who are currently in-house operators and they've told us that their managers and their leadership teams are really supportive of it so amandina natividad for example is vpf marketing at spark Toro Christian wtig is I believe VP at data rails Mira is a product lead AI product lead at meta gnome seagull previously at Twitter now at meta as ux designer so they all have courses and I think the way that they've described it is that they've positioned teaching as a way to give back to the community and also highlight the company that they're currently at right so you know you might know spark Turtle mainly for their you know audience research as a tool but you know if you are a marketer and you are a fan of a Mana natividad she posts amazing content on LinkedIn and Twitter and you see her course and you see the level of insight that she brings the level of craft the depth of her knowledge that brand Halo transfers to spark too right and so you know I think it really depends on the company but you know I think there are more and more companies that realize that they benefit when their people are posting on social when you know their people are active in the community speaking at different events sharing their knowledge you know I think that the old school way is definitely you know let's keep our employees quiet let's not you know we don't want them to share too much like build a personal brand the more they have leverage they have but I think in recent years the last five years and I think more in the next five is we've really seen a trend towards the employers have been open and encouraging about their team sharing end up reaping benefits you know I think like Dave Gearhart is a great example right when he was at drift he shared a lot of drift employees share spot I see HubSpot people on my feed posting all the time Katie Burke you know is a prime example of someone on leadership team who sets that example so you know for me I like following people on social that are individuals and there's a trend towards that where people like following individuals not companies so every one of your employees can be someone who is representing your company I think that's a more modern way of thinking yeah I totally agree yeah I think fallowing individual just feels more authentic than following a brand so yeah I think my perspective is you know as long as a person is doing a great job at the company then I think what they do with your free time should just kind of be up to them right it's like it's a more productive use of time to teach a course than watch Netflix for sure yeah so yeah I that's a great Point yeah a right I'm definitely encouraged by the fact that I think there's yeah like you said there's more of a trend towards letting people share online or build a personal brand or just like build person plan has this like weird slam to it but basically people are just sharing their expertise right and that should like sharing their authentic selves online and I feel like that should be okay yeah so let's say like you know I'm an operator at one of these companies and like I want to share my knowledge I want to create a course on Maven from scratch like how do I go about thinking about this yeah so I would start thinking about market demand for your expertise and also what you are excited to teach so I

have a framework I call it outside in inside out outside in is looking at the outside world how many people want to learn about this how urgent or important is the problem that you are addressing with your course if it is a minor inconvenience that happens every so often doesn't really bother you know that working professional they're not going to be likely to want to spend money on a course MH but if there's high frequency High magnitude you know this is a problem that comes up all the time it's expensive fixing it would really help our company team would help me advance in my career those tend to be topics that people want to spend money on and they're more likely to get reimbursed by employers so that's the outside in way of looking at it another aspect of the outside in is what are questions people ask you all the time that's a signal of what people are already coming to you for and what they already trust you for okay so if you think about event diagram that's one Circle the other circle is inside out and that means looking in your heart of hearts and thinking about what is a topic that I can see myself talking about for a long period of time like anything sharing your expertise building a course marketing your course takes time and if it's something that you yourself are not personally interested in or personally fascinated by you're going to burn out you're going to get frustrated having to talk about this thing over and over but if it's something that you find yourself seeing with fresh eyes all the time that it's one of your natural obsessions anyway you know if let's say you're a marketer there's many different kinds of marketing there's different areas that you might be more excited by you know is it consumer psychology is it messaging is it copyrighting what are you kind of always noticing and seeing through that lens that's a good sign that is a potential topic that could feel you intrinsically to do a course so what you want to do is bring those two circles together and look at that middle slice of where that overlap is and I will say that the outside in circle should be significantly bigger than the Inside Out Circle so I do want to mention that because you know relative waiting wise some people might think you know I'm really passionate about this topic and so I really want to teach it there's a little bit of market demand but like I can see this overlap you really want there to be enough external signals that this is a topic that's worth building a course on and the reason for that is you know you really don't want to spend a ton of effort building a course and then launch to silence cricket and tble weed you know and building a course is really not one of the one of those things where it's not a chance to explore your curiosity for a new topic I would say some people are like oh I recently learned about you know feedback and so I want to teach course on feedback there are people who have been working on studying you know talking about feedback for years those people should do a course on feedback if this is new to you that's great learn about it you know as a hobby or you know to improve yourself but you're probably not as well positioned to teach on that topic as you are to teach on you know something else that people already come to you for that is an obvious part of your track record got it yeah probably if you want to learn something probably just like tweet about it or something more light lightweight because like having done a maven course it is a big time commit and the price point is like fairly high so like people really think about you know what they get of it right like I think that's like an important part of it yeah absolutely what about like are certain categories that are like you know fairly popular like I guess product management or like maybe growing employees and like there's a lot of courses out there already on this stuff so how do you kind of stand out or like you know I really like your point about a spiky point of view maybe you can explain that a little bit more yeah definitely so the idea behind a spiky point of view is that we live in a really noisy world and whatever you do whether you're a designer a marketer an exec there are thousands of other people with similar backgrounds similar years of experience that do something similar and can offer the customer or student or client something similar and so if you say the same things as everyone else if you don't offer anything new it's really

hard for customers to justify why to pick you or students learn from you so having a spiky point of view is the ano stat your unique perspective on the topic of your expertise that other people other experts might disagree with so if you brought 20 marketers into a room and you say your spiky point of view 19 other people might disagree with it and they would have good reason for doing so the point is not to say something that is a mic drop controversial obviously you know crazy thing you know what you say has to be rooted in evidence in rationale in a logical thought process which is why someone could logically think the opposite and also have good rationale for what they're saying right so one example of that is you know I one of my SMY points of view is that if you want to create a course you have to think about demand first the marketing first how are you going to Market this position this to who what are you going to say is it juicy enough before you even work on your curriculum your worksheets your content your lecture material your slides most people do the opposite most people start with what do I want to teach they build out their curriculum syllabus they put together all this content and then when they're done with that they think okay I have this product now how do I Market this product so there's logic to that as well to this idea of product First Market after you can say that a lot of companies do this they build the product and then they market and it might make sense to different situations right uh my spiky point of view is that does not work for products like hes and many other products and that organizations and individuals would benefit from thinking about the marketing first before they even invest product development and Engineering effort etc yeah that's how we built Maven too by the way we launched before we even had a name before we had a technical co-founder before we built the product and the initial traction really helped us to shape what we ended up building so walking the talk here in various ways but that's an example of a spiky point of view you know and it stands out because people are used to hearing the opposite and so when you really think about your ideas your point of view your perspective questions to ask yourself to draw out your own spiky point of view are you know what is something that you believe that you wish other people understood what is something that you see other people talk about where it just wants it just makes you want to pull your hair out cuz you totally disagree and you feel like people are missing this huge point about why you know X framework is you know actually not as useful as everyone makes it out to be right what are things that you know you're almost a little bit afraid to say because you know that people are going to you know have a differing point of view right those are all questions that you can ask yourself and many people I would say most of us all of us already have spiky points of view in us we just need to draw them out add that bit of courage to and confidence that hey my lived experience my track record my experience working in this field tells me X this is what I have seen from years of experience working with clients leading products myself launching courses myself right and if other people disagree that's okay yeah that's really interesting because if you express that then there's going to be a segment amount of people who will think like you know finally someone said this or like really resonate with you right yeah absolutely that's the most exciting part is when people come out of the woodwork and you realize that actually a bunch of people thought this too but they were also afraid to say it and now all those people feel Affinity towards you you're like putting out the bat signal you know when Batman like turns on the thing I guess Commissioner Gordon turn on the the thing on the roof and put the back bat signal out you know and everyone could see it so you're kind of a beacon a lighthouse for looking at an idea a certain way and you attract like my people who believe in that to who want to learn from you who want to dive deeper into that kind of thinking yeah I think this is very important like I'm not sure do you have any other examples of people just have be courses with like spiky points of view like who are really kind of like good at this yeah well a lot of Maven instructors we teach this in the maven course accelerator it's a free 3we course that I teach you how to build a course and so it's one of the first topics we teach in the first session and hundreds of instructors share their spiky points of view on what their topics are so let me share a link to that because there's a ton and the way that we then work with that is they can then use that content to fuel LinkedIn posts to drive towards their course at the top of the funnel to put into emails at the middle of the funnel to incorporate into their landing pages so it's kind of it to work into their positioning so you know a couple I'm think off top my head now April McLean teaches Community Building usually when you think of community building you think about people who love engaging who are encouraging kind of social people good at connecting others and April's course is all about why the best Community Builders are actually selfish jerks and so her entire concept is driven by this idea that hey if you think about Community Building from a this jerk perspective you can actually do really well and how that benefits you right so that's what example shre DOI teaches a very popular course for Mid to senior level product managers and he has a bunch of spiky points of view about how PMS waste their time on various Frameworks that are actually not useful Al he has a lot of spiky points of view there Emily Kramer was the former head of marketing at assuna and she has spiky points of view about how marketers who primarily goal themselves on mqls marketing qualified leads and sqls sales qualified leads are actually setting themselves up for failure so these are just a couple examples of you know these spiky points you know there really so many and I think once you start thinking about them for yourself you kind of turn on a spigot and then you think of them all the time you know like so that's it's actually great because the more you think of it the more other stuff you think of and you know for me it's the only way that I can create content really like it's weird because you know people ask me all the time you know Wes you're so prolific like you post on you know LinkedIn Twitter all the time you know you grew your following super quickly and you know how do you think of what's write all the time and people assume that I have like a Content Matrix you know which by the way like for some people works where like you put uh a bunch of topics on the top horizontally and then vertically you put different kinds of content so a Q& A a personal story a rant a revelation you know a mistake whatever right a case study and then you multiply you basically have like 52 grids of you know cells of content yeah and that just doesn't work for me like I've tried it I've tried all kinds of different tools the only thing that gets me to write is when I feel like I have a burning thing that I have to say yeah that I need to get out right and like that I feel like is something that more people should tap into like what is that burning thing that you really feel like the world would be a better place if you said this you know and it's really about acknowledging that hey you know what if I say this and some people disagree or get pissed off by it that's a risk that I'm willing to take but once you take that risk like there's so many ideas that are just bursting that are just bubbling under the surface yeah I'm the same way like it's very hard to take a analytical approach to content creation for me or I try to do it but the tweets I really take off are just like random wi that I have or like feeling that I have and I just like tweet out and then it takes off even after so many years doing this like I still don't know what the secret 4 formula is yeah I've been writing on my blog since 2010 so it's how many years it's been 13 years and I every so often I try to codify my Approach I try

to make it more analytical more systematic so I can regularly you know have insights or come up with great stuff and to your point it's still so

organic yeah but that's part of the fun of it I mean that's why I'm entertained by all this stuff so let's talk about you mentioned you like to Market first and then build so how do you Market

something like especially if you don't have a big audience like how do you even know what people want or get touch get in touch with your target segment yeah so I have a great example Le of an instructor who did this shovan Barry she teaches a course for leadership and management on leadership and management for women in Tech and so she was an in-house operator for most of her career she was at intercom PayPal as a product manager so she wasn't actively tweeting growing her audience she didn't have an email list and she decided to quit her

job and buil a course and she was starting from zero across all channels and within 6 months she had already run two cohorts and doubled the size of the cohorts so you know I think it's she's a great example because her trajectory was you know her first cohort she had 105 students her next one 25 30 The Next One 50 some the next one 100 some and now she's at 100 to 300 students per cohort and her course I believe is $1,800 uh 1,800 so I need to check on that but it's over four it's four figures basically um so it's a premium price point you know a lot of corbas courses are 500 to you know 750 or you know 900 so she has a more premium price point than other price points and she was able to grow really consistently from no audience and the thing that she did was she got creative about tapping into other people's audiences most people think I can only talk to my own audience they're therefore if I am growing slowly like my you know that's it I'm just limited that way but that's not true so Shani did a bunch of different things that allowed her to partner with other people who had bigger audiences or tap into existing communities that existed so one thing that she would do was approach companies like Amazon like instacart like deoe Microsoft and say hey I run this workshop for aspiring and aspiring women in Tech and I can do a free 45 minute workshop for your you know women in your company and a lot of these organizations have ergs employee resource groups you know surrounding different topics and so you know I can do a talk for you know your women ERG on some topic that is relevant for them so in her case it was how to work with dominant personalities or how to advocate for yourself and balance the tradeoff of warmth versus confidence that women often have to deal with if you're very confident people assume you're less warm if you're too warm people assum you're not as competent very real challenges that her Target student face faces so she would go into these organizations and run these super workshops and once you run a few you can name drop to the other ones that you did a workshop at these other similar companies right so the more she did it the more steam that she gained so she did that she also ran and still runs an event series online where she interviews women in Tech at various companies that she wants to get students from and again she worked her way up from people who were you know more accessible to her who were already in her own network friends from business school who worked at all these different companies now connections friends already in her network and eventually she was able to interview people like Kim Scott from radical cander Julie Zoo from Facebook right so these really high-profile women in Tech that are going to attract a big audience she did all this and she started posting more often on her own social right so building up your own audience it's great leverage it's a great way to reach your audience directly so she didn't just do these other things with existing communities she also started building her own audience so looking for you know where are people already hanging out I mean Alpha actually she that was another great example Alpha is a y combinator spin-off for women in Tech so she didn't AMA with Alpha she would you know she interacts with our community anyway a bunch of there are a bunch of places where your target audience is already hanging out people they already follow what are creative ways that you can tap into adding value to those people's audiences so that they will be happy to invite you into their Community yeah that's awesome because I love their strategy of running workshops and like maybe doing interviews because it's hard to say no to that kind of stuff like if I want to run a free workshop and I have like some other brand names that I've already ran workshops for like why not like why would a company not want this exactly yeah it should feel like a no-brainer I think that's the key right and you should be prepared to add a ton of value and not just promote your course so I think the way with the way to do it is to intersperse hints of mentioning your course throughout the free session and I think this is a more advanced way of doing it I think the more basic is you mention hey I you know create a course right at the beginning and then you mention at the end you know hey if you want more I teach a course that's great and that might be a more comfortable place to start but the way that I've seen more advanced creators sell while teaching for these free workshops is by casually mentioning different mentioning

their course during so you might say you know you might do uh a 10-minute breakout with let's say these women in Tech where you have them you know do an activity and you could say that you know this is one of three activities that we do in my course you know it's super valuable because you are blah blah so you see how it's like just kind of casually mentioning like oh we do breakouts like this a lot or you know there's more like this essentially that we go deeper on we're only able to unpack a little bit because this is only a 45 minute session today but usually we spend you know three sessions on this because this is a pretty important topic something like that kind of just inps during the workshop that hey there's a lot more not just saving selling until the end because people are used to being sold to at the end and so it's easier to just kind of tune out and be like okay now the person's in sales mode like let me just like that yeah that that's pry good advice because yeah you want to sell you want to hint at selling when you're getting the value and kind of like part of the organic yeah wow okay I guess just two more questions like one thing that like I struggle with is like you know creating a cohor course is like a lot of work and usually lasts like what 46 hours or something and no I've attended presentation where the instructor is just like talking all the time is like just incredibly boring like walking through 300 sometimes it also happens at work but yeah so like how do you make this stuff interesting cuz like otherwise it's just like a total SLO you know both for the student and for the instructor totally yeah especially on Zoom you know it's really hard to sit still for long periods of time just staring into camera watching someone speak at least when you're in person you're kind of like in a different space you know and can kind of there's a little bit of novelty there but that's definitely a real problem and I have a framework for this called the state change method so is basically every 3 to 5 minutes at least you

interrupt your own monologue with a state change of some sort so a state change can be anything from sharing your screen and then unsharing it to asking your students to go off of mute to answer something to asking folks to put something in the chat box ask a question say like go ahead and answer in Zoom chat what do you think to uh having someone else speak another speaker or you know anyone else yeah exactly so there's so many different ways that you can do state changes breakouts another obvious one guided exercises where I say hey we're going to all mute ourselves for two minutes I'm going to set a timer and we're going to work silently at the end of those two minutes we're going to share out to doing popcorns you know there's 30 some students in a room one person answers popcorn to the next person they answer they popcorn choose the next person so there's so many ways to keep material engaging and to keep sessions engaging by adding these different state changes that I think we all really have no excuse to Simply monologue the monologuing it really doesn't benefit students because they are tuning out and it doesn't benefit you because you know you can get bored just talking at a screen you know with no feedback from your students like are people asleep are they hanging on to my every word I have no idea right whereas you engage students and you are interjecting these State changes you can tell that people are there with you they're engaged you can tell their energy levels yeah totally yeah I think that's PR good advice I think yeah even for like company presentations like I think that's also a very good advice so yes I remind myself of doing the stage change method even if I'm doing a one-on-one with someone like this is like the opposite of teaching a course or doing a big team presentation is a one-on-one with one person if I feel like I've been talking for too long I'm like I need to stop I need to pause I need to let the other person you know either paraphrase what they heard ask a question reflect react something and it's a great reminder to avoid monologues yeah no one likes monologues even yeah so the last question I have is like you know we talk about courses we talk about building an audience on like Twitter and Link thing I've seen like really sophistic creators kind of we together a bunch of this stuff like maybe they have uh a cohort course and they also have like on demand like a small course at a lower price point and they have a newsletter and they have all other this stuff like how do you think strategically about kind of like the Creator funnel and like how do you get people you know I mean to buy your stuff and like how do you set up so that it almost like Works automatically or like there's like a strategy behind this instead of just like posting stuff on LinkedIn and like hoping that people click through

and buy your course complicated yeah but yeah I think thinking about this problem from your audience's perspective is a really good place to start so if you know seeing your LinkedIn post is the first time that I've ever heard from you I am not likely to spend $750 on your course the course that you linked to at the bottom of that post yeah and so I think it's useful for instructors for creators think about this because a lot of times you know they'll put out a product and then be surprised that you know people are not you know banging on their door to try to get it and a lot of times the problem is that you haven't been showing up for long enough to add enough value to that person's life yeah once you cross that threshold of hey this person has added enough value for me to buy X like you're in right the threshold is higher the more expensive the product is so if your product is $5 it's like all right you you've added over $5 of value to my life I feel like if I paid you this that your paid stuff is going to be good enough for me to get some value from it right if your offering is $5,000 to use an extreme example I need to see a lot more proof and evidence and be convinced that if I were to purchase this course or you know work with you as a consultant whatever that I'm not going to have buyers or mors regret this right so there's a higher bar for conviction that the customer has to feel before they're willing to do that and so I think you know when you think about the work that you're creating you know some creators have one Flagship product they keep it simple some creators have a portfolio of products and so I think either can really work but you really want to think about showing up consistently yeah and adding in a value that in your customer's mind making the leap into a paid product makes sense for them yeah overcoming their hesitations right or like building that trust with a customer yeah and I think you know some people will have a lower priced offering of some sort you know they might have an ebook on gumroad they might be selling some templates on gumroad for $20 $50 they might have a static on demand course for $150 and then they have their coort based course for $950 and so all along you know the customer Journey you know it's it can either be so there's okay a couple ways to looking at it one is that same person might buy all of these things right so they might start on one end versus the other some customers actually come in at the high end once they feel like they can get value from you they actually want to buy the most expensive product you have they might have more cash than time for example right a lot of senior Executives like they don't want to do you know really read your book they want to just do an expensive session with you and have you solve or like give them advice right and then solve the problem move on other people have more time than money and they want to read your book or they want to you know buy your lower pric products so offering various products is a way to kind of off for multiple things to that one person the other way of looking at it is that you can attract different people with different kinds of products altogether like exactly so there might be the people who are buying one thing might be completely different from people who are buying something else and so it's really up to you as a Creator I think that keeping things simple in the beginning is better because you know it's when you make things too complicated to try to capture you know all the value on the table like you really don't want to leave any money on the table so you just try to do it all it's really easy to get overwhelmed to burn out to get confused like for yourself to be confused about how does this all work like am I driving this post towards this product or that one you know does my email funnel like should I promote this stuff first and then that like so it gets really complicated and you know when you're getting started it's complicated enough and there's going to be unexpected things to happen and things aren't going to work the way that you expect so I like just thinking you know what is one product start with one product that you can sell what is one channel that you can start with like don't try to grow I would say I this is you know my point of view I wouldn't try to grow on T Twitter and Linkedin at the same time I would nail One Channel first get really comfortable with it and then expand so for me I grew on Twitter in the course of a year and a half from 10,000 followers to 150,000 followers and I only focused on Twitter and then now I'm starting to post on LinkedIn so but because I nailed one channel I'm much more well suited to approach this other channel whereas before you know I tried growing my audience before you know this past year and I didn't make a lot of progress I was at the one to 5,000 follower mark on Twitter for like literally nine years like so I am used to I know what it feels like to be obscure to like have no progress with growing your following and it was because I tried doing too much you know I was posting on Twitter LinkedIn medium my blog my website and like it was just too much yeah focus is so important even as a product manag like focusing on the right features to build or like building on mayhen like finding that one feature that actually makes a huge difference in uh people's lives like that that's like everything I keep have to remind myself this but yeah even with the creative stuff it makes a lot of sense like this year I'm really focused on scoring my new thater so yeah I I think that's like really awesome advice to close on W where can people find you on online or you know if people want to start teaching a course where do they go yeah go to maven. com and we have a lot of resources for new creators new instructors we also have the free 3-week Maven course accelerator that I teach that is a live course where you go through the program with hundreds of other instructors you get to learn from them there's a great community and we walk you through the step- byep of how to build a course so that's maven. com you can also find us at Maven HQ on Twitter and you can find me westore KO on Twitter and I'm also posting more on LinkedIn now more active

there than on Twitter so follow me there too cool all right w