Sink or Swim: The Importance of Going All-In | GaryVee Audio Experience with Matt Higgins

so the book that I almost wrote would have been called Step change and the reason why is that we are socialized or taught to believe or believe for whatever reason that we should always consider incrementalism first well and before I can open the big lemonade business I first have to have the lemonade stand we never consider why can't I just go all the way to the top there isn't a single time I innovate or ideate for business I always call it let's shoot for the moon and if it doesn't go great we're gonna end up at the top of the mountain which is a hell of a lot better than being on the top of this house it's the only way I can think all right Vader Nation one of the most exciting podcasts that I could possibly put out because of a couple reasons one Matt Higgins is a cult-like figure in the Vayner world because he's been a backer of me for a long time used to be the president of the Jets you just search Matt Higgins Gary vaynerchuk there's plenty of content if you want to go that path or I'm sure after this we'll go that path Matt individually outside of the connection point that we have where Matt and Steve Ross are our partners in the vaynerx world and now Vayner watts and things of that nature Matt himself has gotten a lot of heat because he's one of the few humans who's ever been a shark on Shark Tank and he's done that world but I've known Matt for a very long time and this project that he's on now his new book um I a because I went through that journey and we have similarities we have differences but I know that part but I also know the tireless efforts and work ethic and passion and giving a [ __ ] and he's a little more meticulous than I am so probably every word on this page and the I know the cover Journey like this man put more effort into this cover than I put into vaynermedia like and so I think this should be a great interview for a lot of reasons most of all because I love them so that my subconscious energy is going to deliver two I know that this audience buys books like crazy which is why all sorts of fancy people who otherwise wouldn't want to talk to me are always asking to be on the podcast because the numbers don't lie and all the pr people know that so I'm excited about that because that means a lot of people are about to um get this book and check it out and honestly you know I always say this the books that I always co-sign I've never read because I can't read books I don't have that capacity or capability can you make this the inaugural book nope okay cool am I going to want to be the only time I can is when I go on like vacation and like but I always go by the person do I believe in the person and do I think the person mailed it in because they just want it or they went there I know you went there and so it's really nice to have you on the show well thank you amazing and by the way I know you won't because when I said do you want to see the expert about yourself you said no yes I was like but I'm writing some like intimate stuff you're like no I'm cool yeah Matt tell everybody what the book's about okay let's go over there first yeah so it's most simple version It's all about why do we hesitate um I've been obsessed with this topic generally I've dealt with anxiety and all the issues that people have been listening to have dealt with but when I went on the set of Shark Tank and here I am a grown man right and you know arguably deserve to be there and right before I went on the night before I had a complete meltdown really freaked out like I didn't even know that oh yeah I like well you know I'd rather let the tape do the talking but the reality is the tape doesn't reflect what really happened that imposter syndrome you weren't sure how you would pop on TV you didn't want it you didn't want to be like bad at it well it was like one of those moments like why am I bothering first of all it's really uncomfortable it's full of risk you can underperform of course these things didn't really materialize right we tend to amplify these risks of course but the night before I'd been up for two days I'm in the hotel room and my wife Sarah you know it's five in the morning she's like you know okay baby are you ready to do it I was like I haven't slipped wow it got so bad that I said honey I have an idea I'm going to tell them I had bad salmon in the hotel Rohan oza is lives nearby I'm gonna call Rohan and get him to film I really thought that you know embarrassing to admit it but she's like take a shower pull yourself together I went in the shower listen because I actually want this podcast to bring a ton of value yeah and I think I'm gonna go somewhere that I think has a chance to really bring back by the way I wasn't sure I was gonna break this up no I'm like should I mention that but go ahead you were a real business person in a big organization with lots of things going on was it more about what it was going to do to your real life business than you were going to be like not good on TV it was all of that it was a mix it was the haters that were going to receive it pretty negatively yeah like what are you doing right it was the pressure to perform well on that one let's break that one down because I think that's going to help a lot of people as well that listen to this was it people like in your not like your Direct business friends but those tier 2 tier 3 or was it the masses who you know you were less known than maybe some of the other people and was it more about the masses saying like why this guy out of anybody or was it like that tier two tier three tier four circle of people that you interact in business with like two times a year six times a year on a deal saying like why you not me kind of thing exactly yeah it was not the masses I could care less I love that I'd rather be underestimated

it was about the ones who might have direct effect in the outer orbit who would say who are yeah inherently resentful right so it was so it's like it was all that also why are you taking your eye off the ball what are you doing here right also you're a kid from Queens you know and you know you have improved yourself all this kind of stuff so but interestingly enough I'm in the shower and I'm having this reflective moment and for those who don't know I dropped out of high school and I was 16 and I ended up becoming the mayor's press secretary by the time I was 20. so I've done this on the podcast really like because I want to stay within the book lean and narrow because as we have it on wax so please after this Google Map Higgins Gary vaynerchuk you'll find plenty of videos with us but like I had this moment saying you've been through all this to get to this point now you're gonna succumb when you're at the precipice right trans so actually I owe a debt of gratitude to the great poet Eminem because I decided that I was gonna put Lose Yourself on a loop for two hours and I do I have a video of me in the car I didn't take it off the entire time until the cameras got rolling I would say hello hey Damon you know and I kept it on a loop because I was like that guy exactly and then uh I had a moment in the middle of our taping totally froze and Mark Cuban you know leaned over to me and you could tell it was kind of look a Pity like who invited this guy and um it all clicked like wait a second I was like I've done as many deals as anybody here I've done all this kind of stuff right and then that little conversation in my head I do a complete 180. I talk about this in a book when it's done Gary you could appreciate this I compete for the first deal against you you've been at O'Leary yep I win that deal yep and Laura ganier turns to me and she said Matt in the history of Shark Tank no one has come on and walked on the set like they were there from the first day that's awesome and when I tell this story because everybody out there if you saw the tape you'd say oh he's a natural I'm not a natural I want you to know and you don't need to be a natural but you do need to overcome that voice in your head that makes sense and that's what the book is about and what else is the book about like for a cool makes sense I actually love the way you act I love the concept of hesitation um because that is you selling yourself in the other direction what how'd you what about the title so uh burn the boats um from the beginning of recorded history anytime you have a military leader and they are outnumbered you know ten to one and they need to do the impossible they always use the same language different same Concepts in different languages right of this idea that um to get the most out of you need to eliminate your Escape Route and also eliminate your food so it's in the Art of War it says burn the boats and the cooking pots it goes back to the ancient Israelites Caesar Crossing the Rubicon it goes back to a very bad man Cortez but he used the same concept usually attributed to him this notion that humans perform best when they have no plan B you've heard this before but a lot of people don't believe it when I wanted this statement to be provocative so that 25 of the audience would say yeah that's easy to say but I have malice to feed or I have bills that's all it is right I mean so I would argue that the dominant framework of my content that I put into the world only is responded with stuff like that exactly easy for you or this and that 100 right there's a framework of excuse and I always say to the people I most care about if we go into a deeper conversation about it is if anyone has ever done it in your circumstance then this argument is over if anyone with an alcoholic father has ever succeeded in happiness and business success well then this argument is over I love that you say that because I one of the problems you could relate to this now I'm perceived as a guy on Shark Tank I perceived at the end of the journey and at the beginning of the journey correct this book is my attempt to rewind let me take you back to that shoebox apartment in Queens New York when I'm literally eating government cheese sleeping on a mattress taking care of my mother let me take you to the moment that I had cancer or that I got divorced yeah right all these different moments that you could say all right I don't want that also I can relate to that sure and so the the point being I am the most paranoid risk taker ever gonna you know this guy right like so this is like a really fun podcast because I actually like no you know I know and so burn the boats it's not burn the boats with you on it it's the point of the book is that um you should process Risk by all means you need to process risk at the beginning of the journey and say what's the worst that could possibly happen once you've process risk and synthesized it then you can go forth fearlessly it's fine so my paranoia as you know is front loaded yes right yes but then I go yeah I like that when don't you go I was actually going to just jump in that you're right it's all the upfront and then you know once the ink is signed well then right we're going but I notice and this is not how you roll that a lot of people get joy uh in filling the void or it's their way where they aren't good at that even after the deal you shook on it you signed it you started it you opened the store that they go into dwell City

quickly often a month later we shouldn't have done this and all the energy goes into we shouldn't have done this because it was a bad 30 days instead of all that energy you need to make the next 30 days awesome is that touched on what do you think about that is more the point of the book that actually what I'm trying to demonstrate and there's a lot of Academia in the book to prove the point that the mere contemplation of a plan b or whatever or your Escape Route dramatically reduces the probability you'll be successful so there's an incredible story out of Wharton not to get all uh you know but from 2014 where they wanted to prove that uh you know that idea and they had you know two groups of you know students going ahead and undertaking and exercise and all they had to do was think about another way to achieve of the result and they were able to demonstrate a material reduction in not only the likelihood that they would achieve it but the desire to actually achieve it so that's why military think of it makes sense you're about to die and they harness this idea that you have no Escape Route so the boat the reason because if you can run away from dying that seems the only way to do it is to kill everyone right so the boats in my case is not really your Escape Route it's the things that recur in your life internally and externally that make you revisit whether you should have did you know it's funny did you know one thing my publisher struggles with me is I want to make books that aren't timeless yeah like my one of my favorite books is jab jab right hook it was the current state of social media content that worked then I'm literally the next book I'm going to write is jab jab left hook because I want to update it because green screen Tick Tock green screen and Tick Tock didn't exist when I wrote that and they always make fun of me and I always say look Crusher did so well because it's more Universal and like I remember when you were telling me about this book I'm like ooh this is such a universal like this is a book that can like did you give that thought I also a lot of people who listen to this are more advanced in their careers and think about writing the book did that even hit your radar is this just a book you want to write or were you conscious that like oh if this does well it's doing well 13 years from now because it's a universal message no this is my attempt to engineer an outcome to write something that endures there's no question yeah because I believe in this so that was the starting point and then you kind of you have 13 15 things just like don't hesitate that you thought through and out of all the things that you think are Universal this is what you zeroed in on and this is the was there something that was a close second oh that's a great question here's a fun question yeah there was so the book that I almost wrote would have been called Step change and it would have and the reason why is that we are socialized or taught to believe or believe for whatever reason that we should always consider incrementalism first well and before I can open the big lemonade business I first have to have the lemonade stand and that is a very corrupting thought we never consider why can't I just go all the way to the top so but my bias and your bias is that's how I ended up at Harvard Business School I could have taught at Queen's College I love everyone at Queen's college but I said why can't I be the best what would it take to be the best by the way to your point there isn't a single time I innovate or ideate for business where I don't I always call it and you've heard this a million times listen let's shoot for the moon and if it doesn't go great we're gonna end up at the top of the mountain which is a hell of a lot better than being on the top of this house right it's the only way I can think right and I one of the best and I'm gonna talk about it I'm gonna write a new book called Step change right he was doing together what let's go back to this real quick what else will people get out of it what do you what's your gut tell you end or I love tell us an anecdotal story from somebody who's already read it in your inner circles that isn't like someone who blindly is going to say this is remarkable because they love you so much and actually gave you an insight to what they consumed so what you got to pick on my vulnerability that is my paranoia though people are telling me they like it or people know me so what do you what are you gonna get um You probably feel the same way too A lot of the business books some of them are great I love atomic habits some of the few other ones yeah but I'd say the majority tend to be really redundant and they tend to be written as if they're reference books like they're a textbook yes and people are going to refer to them yes that the reason why we keep buying the same book over and over again is because it doesn't stick right I set out to buy a book that was written like a novel so the best compliment I've gotten interesting even my own son you know yeah I sat there for five hours and read it all the way and he turned to me it's like it reads like truth which was amazing that's awesome so I worked really hard to write a very readable book number two 2 I did case studies that took a lot of effort there are 50 different people in this book from billionaires to NFL coaches to my partner Scarlett Johansson like all talking about the moment that they had to cross you know that barrier and fully

commit to their full potential the number one thing you'll get out of this book is a feeling information great is the feeling that [ __ ] I can do yeah I love that emotion and so far I was let's just say out of 20 people no joke Gary at least six different people have come to me and said your book gave me the conviction and confidence to make it radical change I believe it almost makes me pass out like if I could no seriously like this is my life like it's the most important thing I've ever done yeah I could actually scale that it makes me like oh my God all right now let's go into another thing that's going to be Universal for this audience selling it yeah I like that part too let's talk about that okay how have you been thinking about it how's it been going when's the book come out but comes out on February 14th Valentine's Day I pretend there's a logic to that give yourself the gift of love it's because it's on Tuesday really irritates me yeah but everybody pretend that there's all a reason right yeah so um so selling it can I tell you why in The Burning Heart or is it is that the song I never know words in the Burning Heart right yeah I feel like you should do some sort of piece of social content on the Valentine's Day the heart burning I feel like you should you help me with that you should do a shirtless workout video reading the book on Valentine's Day morning with the Burning Heart in the background so how's it going you're saying yeah um I know I didn't think I would enjoy it so much because it's turned me to such bottom feeder Behavior like I've lost all dignity and I love it because I care so much about it and I've never had a product to sell before isn't it crazy we own all these companies together and I own Magnolia Bakery but they've never been mine right this never had to sell right I bleed in this book like and I put things in there that I read I can't even finish them sometimes right I talk about my mother at the end and I talk about again it's not an autobiography so I enjoy it plus so much engineering went into it to your point there were over 400 iterations of that cover like on the record I usually just tell somebody on garyvee's design team can you design a cover I look at them like approved Dustin you know that to be true right yeah let's get sitting here watch this but I this will just be a fun moment in the podcast Sid Sid you've been around long enough what is the normal process of how I do a cover of a book it's a hundreds of minutes hundreds of iterations does he do I think Gary sees like the second last version of it how quickly do I usually approve it or make changes how long you look at it 10 seconds and how and what just usually comes out of my mouth after those 10 seconds the longest tagline ever and uh very little changes probably those last Origins it sounds very similar in my process only the opposite 400 generations of this cover yeah 411 to be honest but oh and I know it's me by the way I know it to be true I got involved so now I was like got wired in on a text and he's like I need you immediately and I was like what is it he's like that's totally true what do you think of this I'm like I don't [ __ ] I actually put more effort into Matt's cover than I did in all six of my [ __ ] books that is actually true thank you said go back to work okay can I tell you why yeah four out of five business books are actually still bought at retail so I looked at this as bottom of the funnel again right so but real quick on that point the boat the boats generally is a metaphor for whatever it is holding you back right and a big premise of the book is uh the first thing that you start with the fish rots from the head what are you carrying around that you haven't dealt with that can make you lighter and the first thing is to shed your shame so the image on the book looks kind of like a like a paper boat floating in a bathtub and that represents all the things from childhood that tend to hold it I like that and so I talk a lot about my journey to overcome losing my mother and again it's not an autobiography the part I love about the book Grant front cover quote that's a good one let's talk about engineering yeah so the back of the covers the quotes on the back is this is a mock yeah uh Arnold Schwarzenegger yep uh David Solomon so you have Goldman Sachs Jay shetting all right uh Bobby Brown uh Mark Cuban you know so I worked huge a couple months because most people only have endorsements within their vertical and I thought like this I meant this book is meant to appeal to the masses so maybe it was a little extra around the cover I admit that no it's pretty cool and what about the selling what do you think what did what have you learned that people can you know take from the selling process what was harder what was easier and obviously it still hasn't come out because of this recording when do you want me to put this out uh after February 14th I mean you know the pre-sales count towards the first week sales I know you agreeing to agree but if you look at business books and people I want all the Impressions to hit when people can see it at a bookstore okay subscribe so we'll put it out do you want me to put out of the morning of yeah that would be amazing got it but in terms of what people would take away too I try to articulate a lot of abstract Concepts that we all deal with it but haven't

been able to put your finger on so for example I'll go through the archetypes of bad leaders one of them is this idea of a withholder that I'm obsessed with that person in your life whether they're a manager who refuses to give you praise because they know you feed on it because they know you're a person who seeks approval and they use it to destabilize your self-esteem interesting and so what's great when you write your own book you can give an aims to things that don't exist like you're in sociology in college right I got to name things but a lot of things that hold us back these external obstacles that I think I do a really good job and then I use these different case studies to illustrate those and what about that little scenario because I like that like is the book telling people that they should work on themselves so they don't need validation from others or is it selling them look out for these people while you're in the process of getting stronger well look there's no new ideas in the universe right so all I'm trying to do is hold up a mirror and validate that you know what you suspect you're feeling is true you're a partner your wife or your husband is withholding deliberately your bosses and two to the per people in power this especially applies to artists tends to be the ones who are unable to advocate for themselves especially financially yes and it tends to be the ones who can be destabilized by that treatment I think when you're dealing with somebody with Artistry you have an obligation to be their Advocate that's nice so it's a message to management but I go through these five different archetypes the part I'm most I'm proudest of in the book is taking these case studies where people have allowed me to share their very vulnerable raw stories and I'd love to talk about one please we got a minute please um there's my partner Aiden Kehoe yeah and we uh we have a cyber security business together I acquired his business you know Aiden right Irishman from you know he's a bartender yeah he ends up in all these improbable jobs insurance broker then ends up creating a cyber security the company we acquired his company and very quickly I realized that um Aiden because got a big heart and was carrying a lot of trauma would not deal with conflict with employees and so he was not upgrading his staff and as soon as we took an outside Capital we would have these conversations saying like Aidan man like you got to make a move here you gotta make a move there they're going to eat you alive right so it started accumulating there's always compounds right same way money compounds problems compound right so over time started taking a lot of incoming at the same time very difficult home situation A Child on the Spectrum just coming from every direction right I get a phone call one night from him and he's uh crying through the you know through the phone basically saying hey Matt like I failed you I am so sorry like I'm out I'm gonna resign I don't know if you know the story no I don't three years in I'm gonna resign uh end of the year and I said first of all what's that noise in the background I hear beeping and he's like uh I'm in the hospital my daughter is getting tested for seizures uh you know just everything's falling apart and I was like first of all Aiden I'm perfectly comfortable calling you when it's over I was like it's not over it's just beginning you're at the moment of capitulation I was like you need to hang up the phone you need to take care of your child right now and you call me when you're ready to do the work you know a few days later he calls me like you could hear it in his voice he had contemplated the worst case scenario total failure company didn't work and had let it go yeah and the real work began I'll skip some of the most important details but he started working with an industrial psychologist that you know me love those industrial psychology I love that [ __ ] so Matt hasn't met an outside consultant that's not true psychologists but actually this is a strength of yours this is a weakness of mine you know me I'm like the reverse no you're right you're like get away from my head get out of my head I'm in my cocoon yeah I can barely speak to AJ and you or anybody thank God I don't hold you accountable for anything I would be dead how does your partnership work it's like I don't have a boat so but listen how amazing it is you know it's funny I think a lot about Investors and I think about value add yeah right and I do think that one of the strengths you have is take you as you come well that for damn with me for damn sure I can't speak how you've met like no you know it's all different you're just like but it's also like people always ask me like family business questions they're like how do I get my dad you got your debt your dad I was like cool my dad who I give my dad Sasha the most credit he gave me tons of room but it came because he watched when I was 15 when you're [ __ ] 15 years old and you look nine and your father says to you there's 50 cases of this thing over here that's not selling and then he's downstairs like he ran the business from his office he did us all his meetings and he comes upstairs at like four hours later to check on the floor and like 11 of the cases are gone you're gonna start building confidence you know what I think you do well is you watch you know you invested what year did you and Steve invest in my feelings 2015. right so like you guys like in the you watched and very quickly you're like okay good like this guy can do it and you took your energy it's what I do with mine actually I do that I think it gives me too much credit because there were

moments when I would also like question hey Gary why aren't you talking about yourself as a business person I want to give you that little speech you're always you know you're not you're under representing just what a business yeah you're always nice about it like that's interesting Matt yeah I'll do more LinkedIn posts you don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about but uh it's great so but I think you know I really do think of value add and I do think you as an investor do what I do as an OP operator which is you play every scenario different you know that's so many of your Investments Through The Years randomly sometimes that like things that we're together at and other times just like at an airport and you know like my experience is different than other people's and I always laugh I never say it to them but we're kind of going transparent here on the thing they're like hey you know like Matt is you know like checks in a lot I mean like you know like that's right and my brain goes to you need it I know that's like where my brain went to because I know that you do that with me thus it by the way it's the same thing I do in my company now with divisions and offices and there's eight or nine vaynerx companies and then there's the Boehner things that are outside Watt and sports like you know like I only you know when you're at the levels that we're playing at you're putting your finger in the holes that have the ish back to boats right Buckley I'll give her some roses if she's crushing in La I like I don't know I don't need to necessarily like look at it I don't have to put my finger in there also you don't want to because you're not self-aggrandizing right I think you do well that I'm trying to do better is I go so macro that I'm like it's all good but if you can help it better and in this scenario it was a it was something that wasn't working as well but like you're very good at bringing outside energy it's not just Capital it's like and it's not just like you tend to match people up yeah it's a strength of yours and that's what you did in that stuff and I wonder if that ties back to this book which is like if you're hesitating what energy like it makes sense that you can't figure it out yourself well not only that um lean on something or someone self-awareness is the greatest single Arbitrage professionally and personally it's entirely within your control 100 so in a situation like that and I do this well I create space for somebody to eliminate their excuse because I'm sharing all these details right like you're okay let me just tell you the Eden story I'm sorry okay no I was just summarized I was excited about now the bottom line is he does all this incredible self work and he goes through this process with the industrial psychologist and it's a very uncomfortable process because somebody's holding up a mirror to you and they also have a PhD so they're not there were 95 accurate and there are things you thought you were concealing he gets the report right you know detailing all his issues and we're in this meeting and um he said excuse me for a second he walks out of the room goes into the room next to it he's at a staff meeting he said here read this report you can pass it all around because you already know everything about me and I have a lot of work to do he made a single decision he was no longer going to work on concealing he was going to do a 180 and create a culture of total transparency in probably about 19 months turn the whole business around and had a massive nine-figure exit what could have been a zero and so to me I to me that story illustrates the power of self-awareness if you just choose to look within and again the whole book is not about that obviously but it starts there as you know um but anyway that's the what else do you want people to know about this book or a story in it or anything like I want to go a little more meat and potatoes if there's anything yeah no I I I what I want you to know is that it would probably be pretty hard for you to look through this book and not seem some see some reflection of what you're going through right now or somebody that you admire particularly um I worked really hard to profile women entrepreneurs because my background has been populated by strong women of course you know obviously my mother but but all the mentors I've had in my life my wife has unlocked my entire success and so the first entrepreneur you encounter in this book is a woman and the last one you encountered in this book and so I'm really proud of the way and again not in a lecture way yeah no Warren is celebrating like the truth it's the truth isn't it funny it's such a weird talk about dni or this I'm like it's just the reality remember early in the podcast I'm like if anyone looks like you and your situation and mate like there's unlimited stories of people that are not white men that have built iconic business like it's silly talk yeah it's silly talk Matt to make this very contextual to this audience using me as a proxy and will help people when you because how many Investments have you and Steve done together oh I don't even know I know but like we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars yeah but hundreds right yeah okay so think about this everyone I want you to hear this let's use me and then I'm gonna use maybe one or two other of your entrepreneurs because I think this may help maybe using the framework of the book maybe not because it's a general podcast we've established that everybody needs to buy a ton of books uh please um if I wasn't me and I'm doing this podcast and I said I want you to analyze the entrepreneurs that you've backed what is different about Gary

vaynerchuk's operation style that you think is different than what you see across your Investments and what's common then we're going to play this game with other people besides me but I want to make it fun with my audience if somebody said to you like what is the biggest single thing or things that Gary operates in what currency Styles things like what stands out that's super different because I think if when we do this with a couple others it may give some people some themes to lean into their differences because I think leaning into the things that make you unique are actually places of confidence to not hedge I agree so this is all right so what do you think I do forget I do plenty of things well and not well like other entrepreneurs and some of those things that I do well are similar to Jesse and others that you've invested in but what do you think is uniquely different about how I do things from what you've seen because you've seen a [ __ ] a lot yeah let me tell you what popped into my head immediately two words structural Integrity you are constructed with perfect Integrity because you are authentic and everything about you is there's nothing in Conflict inside of yourself you sleep eight hours you have your things that you put out you you have no shame because you have nothing to hide yep and as a result you're able to move effortlessly right I was like I wish I could be so self-possessed like and I don't know anyone else who possesses that uh in the Empire including myself so that's the number and I think it's a big reason for your success we have this conversation all the time like Gary does this stress you out you're like nope I asked you so the other day you're like you know he said to me I love it and I talked to my wife about this and sometimes talking to me is like taking a warm bath like Epsom salt I was neurotic about something as I often am and you said Matt no because I'm a good person and I was like yeah I can't argue with that and so structural Integrity when you have that you're able to move in One Direction let's go into your portfolio because you're gonna know better than I do give me than another person that you can bring up tell us their business and tell them tell us what makes her or him their unique thing that's different than the rest oh I love that um Christina Tosi yes um Christina Tosi when you interact with her you can give everybody oh sorry guys everyone out there Christina Tosi is the founder of Milk bar right great Dessert brand an amazing human being when you are with her you know that she is rooting for you to be successful there isn't an ounce of her that feels like she wins by you losing so she's an one of my favorite things she's a big cheering for everyone to build the biggest building they can build has very little energy to tearing any other building yeah nice and then again even her competitors uh 100 and back to the point of like understanding and I do have a philosophy you know this you take your Founders and you take people as they come and you try to amplify their positives and help them mitigate their downsides but not and I always are you somebody who pokes holes or plugs holes do you poke at a hole poke at a vulnerability or do you try to plug it so her skill now at the same time she's also a really good person she's a creative and so you at the same time wouldn't expect her to be perfectly at ease with conflict and you know and situations where there's potentially you know volatile toxic person like you got to help somebody work through those situations so there's I got a good one without naming names okay and you might not even want to go too deep into the details because it might expose it no I'm sure I cover I covered the archetypes in a book so I'm sure so tell me an example of through these years of investing what because I think this will be fun for the audience what was the blind spot for you I'll give you mine real fast I came out the gate hot Facebook Twitter you know that's a lot of what we did our fund on was how well my stuff looked when I look back I somewhere early on veered away from judging the operator and judging the idea and was making pretend I was gonna operate it and could see it succeed if I had operated it and at that point I didn't understand how much better of an operator I was than the masses and I didn't realize how much that was actually the variable not just the idea was genuinely always important but actually a 1B to the operator because you could kill any good idea Facebook Google Uber all could have died if the operator wasn't right and did die before those things they were built before no new ideas Friendster is Facebook like you know like so um what was yours if you look back at your first half decade or even right now what's the cliche thing that gets you [ __ ] up but it's like you'll make a bet and you're like [ __ ] that same theme or you probably plugged it at this point because you've been deploying Capital real capital for a long time but what was it I was going to use yours I won't use yours because is it the same it is number one so I'll give you number two by the way everyone should take note of that yeah that it's a cliche it's always the jockey we tend to reject the cliches because we want to break new ground there is no ground or no ground to break we've been around somebody at home that's not a investor this is true in hiring too yeah for everybody who's hiring someone you can you know what they would like should do and you just like the person you haven't figured out if they're capable of doing it right so

bring that into you possibly by the way when you do a search and you land on your number one and if you can't get your number one you should abandon the whole search and start over again because those are the there's a reason you didn't like your numbers exactly the best decisions are relative decisions but I'm gonna do my number two since you took number one is you know it is about the jockey it's a damn cliche it's 100 too and a week um a weak jockey will never be able to even if they have a great idea right but the flip side is true a great jockey can Eclipse a bad idea because they'll iterate through it but number two is um and I've totally done a pivot on this opportunity cost is now my first thought I always say when I write this check I'm not investing I'm getting a new job yeah and I have to ask myself three years to five years from now can all this will this be working can I give you a real one yeah outside of our Network you know because we had a fun then we had a gap and fund I did a personal investment this weird up the other day personal investment wrote a fairly big check for me and my personal investment realm team comes to me Phil included and says hey you own 17 of this company and the company's like about to die but your personal brand can actually help it again and I said no I said I don't want to run the business I have you know how many businesses I run right I didn't sign up for a rescue mission right so like that's where you know like and I'm in a unique spot on top of everything else because I have a platform that can bring awareness and so yeah you can change it yeah and like but then what am I doing like you know like not that I want that investment because the opportunity costs are a problem but also knowing so let's take that one step further opportunity cost is a problem for anyone which we don't focus enough on but it's really a problem for somebody who acts like the Marines they leave no man or woman behind because that means that when you're confronted with a situation like you and I are yeah I refuse to let things die so now I pay an even double tax because so now I forecast future Behavior at least try to do better and say one who am I going to care about in three years and two am I gonna die trying to save it because I know some of your trials and tribulations that makes that's a good one yeah opportunity cost is real as [ __ ] what's your number three to you know I don't tend to play too early I think the nft stuff was like that we just did a lot of investing in I knew that it was web 9697 I think trying to figure out which ones are going to make it through this like right now I'm enjoying the V friends thing I don't know if I've enjoyed something more than what is the meetings I'm having about the event annoys me with this whole thing is I wish you had just told me like Matt do crypto punks instead you had me do millions of dollars by the way he's being a dick everyone why'd you let me do all these stupid like I can't control you that's fair you're a maniac by the way hey do you know how enjoyable it is every 24 or 36 months or so well this is only just wants to get a text from you can you call he's like you were right again like because I like to hold myself accountable you give me roses right and I'm you know this about me Ma I tend not to be wrong because I'm petrified of it yeah you're right yeah it's funny people always say like oh Gary is like kind of like a gunslinger I was like are you kidding he's way more risk adverse than I am you're not paranoid but you also are more measured actually I really am I'm loud and chaotic as a communicator but to your point you know the truth people would be stunned yeah if they looked at the math they would think it'd be reversed I'm the guy with the jacket on you know but you're the one who takes so much you know because it's like I just don't want to be wrong you really don't I really don't yeah you're more way more competitive than I am you actually are way more competitive I'm actually lost to my head and I'm actually not competitive with the outside world no you're playing with me I'm playing with my thoughts so um we got a few minutes without what did we touch on oh actually we didn't talk about this okay um did you end up doing the packages I did so everybody as many of you know because you've done this through the years I've had a lot of success in like if you buy 100 books of this you get books of my book you get that because I always want my books to do well I want to get them out there when Matt called me he's like hey you've been fairly successful in this genre like what's the story I'm like hey I really think the packages especially you because I know so many people I get emails hey can I pitch mad a business for 15 minutes I'm like you might be able to do like a buy 50 books and get to pitch a shark like it felt very real to me so did you end up getting to do packages or you did not do so yes and no okay I followed your advice which was brilliant which was create the packages and they're amazing right and they're like they're wallpaper and eye candy I didn't find anything to try to push them because the difference is it still real uh it exists but well we could do it right now I would say the most go to oh burn the boatsbook. com and you'll be able to find packages so let's go to that burnthebooks. com burn the boats books the boats book. com

right what is what are the packages do you remember I would say the ones that are most useful or interesting or pitch a shark because everyone always wants to go how many books was that time I can't remember okay should I pull it up 50 books so um that one I think is you know you did do it I did do it and my thinking was even if uh I didn't work hard to push those packages I love checking every box as you know right yeah I don't want to look back and say I didn't burn the boats and run every tactic but I to be honest Gary I enjoyed the act of going to my relationships and saying I've put 47 years of my heart and soul into this like please buy it because I've never is it under bonuses um yes okay here we go here's what you ended up doing five books invite the VIP burn the books webinar um to the audience Gary's about to find out that one of those packages involves Gary yeah I see my picture and I'm like I'm in it hey Gary can you do a package you're doing it like a whole course don't worry about it please stop so I am I'm in it 25 bucks join Matt and Christina Tosi for a virtual baking tutorial very good right pretty cool very cheap yeah for her yeah so go back to go to the dolphins it's a shark live one-on-one Zoom with Matt yeah that's probably the most valuable right that's gonna get the most yeah that's what's gonna happen here just yeah because that's really obviously very real 150 take your team through a business case live with Magnolia very interesting so like that's Consulting around 150 cheap 500 books the ultimate NFL experience join Matt and the piece of [ __ ] Miami Dolphins in Miami want to live out your foot but Matt will host up to four guests in a once in a lifetime talion in the 72 Club field passes or dolphin fans definitely check this out because I know what the cost on it day of deep sea fishing with Matt because you know how much 500 bucks I do right Gary and I never got fishing outside the Statue of Liberty remember that Matt's Big Apple 1 000 books join Matt for an afternoon evening Adventure in New York starting with a helicopter ride I was going to build that to you by the way wait I'm in this too yeah well the Hudson yards for me with well it's our helicopter yeah basically my Pat my strategy is just to take you literally they leverage you yeah you took it very little but I was gonna wait till it works packages like me not put me in the but then once they were successful then I would ask you to do it burning the boats I am dying right now well everyone check out burnthebodesbook. com I think pitch the shark is probably the most valuable because I think in 15 minutes is all I need to change a trajectory of your life and I really I feel great about I love doing it and so that's probably the one that I'm mostly listening everybody we're gonna wrap up like with an actual left hook um you know one thing I do for my friends is because I have a bunch of employees is buy a bunch of books put them in the hallway so anybody you know who has got a company with 10 or 12 or 19 employees by the way I know Matt he's a sucker because I'm in every package I'm sure if you come up with your own package and email them and say hey will you talk to the whole company got 113 employees though about 13 bucks like he's trickable is all I'm trying to tell you I'm trying to give my audience value since you took all the value out of me there all right wait yes before you go because you're here yeah and then all my friends out there in the metaverse will be upset if I didn't ask you know have gone really deep into the ens right the naming system you're a huge I know but you know how everyone's bothering you on Twitter now I have to bother you on this podcast whatever you know we blew it I told you and AJ that over the holidays hit me up we'll do like two hours and we didn't do it kidding me no instead you hit me up and we did like an hour on the book that's fair so all the ens people just so you know he sold you out for his own book did you know that was a misdirection I'm really excited about the ens thing I'm just so [ __ ] busy back to like you know what are we talking about I bought for you something I bought a name for you that I'm waiting for it for you to receive I am going to make a commitment to get educated here and understand why everyone is as passionate about it I'm aware that everyone believes this big space I just have not done my own homework you know I love to do my own homework I will I'll have you and AJ help me I look forward to that we'll do that in February please buy the book everyone burn the boatsbook. com is where you should all go uh the book is actually out today because we are we recorded this in late January and we're publishing it on Valentine's Day Happy Valentine's Day Matt I love you and I love you can I have the last word Gary you're everybody asked me all this all the time what's Gary really like Gary really is like everything you perceive about Gary that you are the most pure form of a person and you take a lot of heat a lot of questions you know there's always haters all this [ __ ] out there I I'm always in awe of um just how much Integrity you have and I do I'd like to I love to be around people that I can

learn from and make me think how I could be better you are that person for me that's very humbling thank you brother Happy Valentine's Day