Why Your “Dream Job” Might Be Ruining Your Life - Dave Evans

fail faster to succeed sooner. The failure we're talking about is the prototype. The purpose of our prototypes is to go learn something experientially. It's not what I call an engineering prototype. So, you can't fail unless you've paid no attention and didn't learn something. So, now that I'm learning something, I'm failure immune. I can't fail cuz I'm learning my way forward. We're not saying it's great to fail. What we're saying is you have to iterate to learn your way forward. — Is meaning something that we find or something that we build? The answer is yes and no. One of the lines we're using these days is stop waiting around to find the meaning of life. Start designing more meaning in life. What are the core tenets of life design? The core observations start with as soon as you're doing that thing you love for money. You're doing it on the market's terms, not yours. — Interesting. — So, when you're not doing it for money, oh, you're not a professional, you're an amateur. Well, let's break the word amateur down. What does amateur mean? It's from the Latin. I do it for love. — Amma, — an amateur does something they love for the love of it. — How long should it take before you decide whether or not to settle on this version of yourself versus to pivot out of it and try something else? It's when life says, "Hey, it's time. "

— Dave Evans, welcome to the show. How you doing? — Thanks for having me. I'm doing fine. — I'm super excited to uh to learn about your fascinating background and to get into the topic of your new book, How to Live a Meaningful Life. It's something that we all want, right? I want it. — That's what they tell you. Yes. The question's been around for a while now. — Well, what do you think people are actually trying to solve when they say, "I want more meaning? " — Well, that's how we got here. I mean, why write another book? Hey, we wrote the book on designing your life. career. We kind of thought we were done. You know, we sort of covered a lot of territory. And then after the pandemic and especially after the great resignation, 52 million people walk off the job looking for something better. I don't know how many of them landed better, but they all walked off looking for it. We started hearing this report back, which is, hey, I did all this stuff. It's still not working for me. And we say, well, what's not working for you? And we heard this literally thousands of times. So there's something going on. Um and it was either I'm not having the impact I need to. I got to you know it's there's got to be something that makes it matter. We heard that mostly. And the second to that we heard it's just not as fulfilling as I had hoped. So in the present moment in the zeitgeist maybe not in the philosophical textbook but in the zeitgeist what we were hearing the meaning question be is impact and fulfillment. And the first thing we do as designers is start with empathy. what's really going on and then we take a hard look at that thing and say is that the best way to define the problem generatively or do we need to reframe it and our immediate response was oh both of those are dead ends technical term is you're screwed um if that's what you're after I can explain why so we need to reframe this

— as a as an engineer as a designer I mean how did you transition to talking about and coaching people ultimately on mass scale to uh to find more meaning in their lives — well that's a long story you know some people will say that, you know, life is really walking out your woundedness. Um, and back in the early 70s, I'm a 19-year-old sophomore at Stanford. You know, I'm turning 73 in a couple of weeks, so back when the dinosaurs roamed the campus. Um, and I walk into the career center and I say, "Hey, can you help me? " Uh, and they said, "Well, sure. We got a whole building full of people. Love helping students like you. Um, we just can't wait to get started. " I go, "Great. So, what do I want? " And they go, "Right, that's the question. What do you want? " I go, "Right, that's the question. " They go, "Okay. " I go, "Okay. " Like we're staring at each other and I kind of, "Well, how does the help start? " They go, "Well, what do you want? " I go, "That's why I'm here. " And they go, "Oh, oh, you don't understand. Here's how this works. You tell us what you want. Then we help you get it. " And I go, "That's useless. Getting stuff is easy. How do I figure out what it is I really want? What am I supposed to be doing with this life of mine? " And they go, "Oh, you're supposed to know. " So, the adults were singularly unhelpful and all the grown-ups were and I like why are we keeping this secret about how you're supposed to figure it out like you're supposed to know. Um, that's where this began. Um, so [clears throat] I just was trying to figure my own life out for, you know, a dozen or so years. Uh, and then finally ended up in high-tech. That's a long story. Um, and then found myself on the first corporate culture committee at Apple Computer in 1979 working with Steve Jobs. Um, and I suddenly found out everybody wants their life to matter. Everybody wants their work to matter to them. The work's the largest place we expend our human energies. Number one place people find meaning as it turns out. So, oh, that's going on for everybody. So, this became not only my own personal quest of figuring life out, but helping others figure their life out too. Fast forward. So, I talk about this on the side. I've got a day job, [snorts] you know, for 20 or 30 years. Then I get invited to teach a course at Cal Berkeley about 1999 uh which was finding your vocation subtitled as your calling — taught that I thought for one experimental semester at the end of which one kid says hey Dave my roommate couldn't take it this fall you're coming back in the spring right I said oh hadn't planned on that tell you what you get nine other students to come in 10 minimum I'll show up that's the deal you get 10 I'll come 14 semesters later I'm a little stuck um and then my friend Bill starts at Stanford and I say, "Hey, what are you guys doing over there? That's a better drive. " Um, and that began the Life Design Lab at Stanford in 2007. And that's how we got here. So, basically, an unemployed marketing guy slowly but surely turns into an educational reformer. — The Life Design Lab at Stanford.

— Yeah. — Well, first before we get into that, um, what's the difference between a vocation and a job? — Ah, great question. So when we talk about the world of work very often people will speak in sort of three categories paradigmatically about your philosophical relationship with your workplace. Do you have a job, a career or a calling or vocation or a passion we might say today typically when people talk about these three things a job, a career and a calling, they stack them up hierarchically. Job at the bottom, career on top of that, calling at the very top. Bill and I don't see it that way. We see these as just different, not better and worse. You do a job for money. You do a career for professional advancement and mastery and you do a calling for missional fulfillment and value expression. They're fundamentally different. They're not better and worse. They're just different in nature. Now, if you're going to do quote just a job just for the money, you don't want to do a hateful job. job you hate or is soul crushing. But it doesn't necessarily have to light your fire. Your meaning making and your money-making don't have to be the same thing. Most people assume it should be. That's a very modern elitist idea. Frankly, the overwhelming majority of humans who've walked the surface of the earth couldn't make a living of what they love. That's okay. Um, so the [clears throat] difference between a job and a calling is how you think about it. — But there is this uh this sense that people who have been so lucky as to make money um and commercialize that which gives them meaning that they are somehow like winning. — Well, yes and no. It's um it's an easy archetype to be attracted to and if you meet somebody for whom that is the case, my guess is you're probably one of those people. Um the creator economy is full of them, by the way. Um however, as soon as you're doing that thing you love for money, you're doing it on the markets terms, not yours. — Interesting. — So, when you're not doing it for money, oh, you're not a professional, you're an amateur. Well, let's break the word amateur down. What does amateur mean? It's from the Latin. I do it for love. — Amma, — an amateur does something they love for the love of it. I know lots of people who are making money what they love and they don't love it the same anymore because they're a growing form of a human being. We're an artist and now they're stuck. There was an artist my late wife and I love very much. We used to go to the Salelito Art Festival every year. We saw him for years and then he was gone for about four or five years and he came back and then he reappeared. Michael, where have you been? Oh, you know, I just stopped out. Why? I just I hate this What? You know, we love your work. He says, "Yeah, I know, but I mean, I'm I'm so stuck. I'm so sick of it. " You know, and I can't afford to stop now because now he's making really good money. The stuff sells for 5 to 15 grand a pop, not $500, and he's working out of the van. Um, and he sort of believed that he was stuck — because now he's doing it on the market terms. So both the money and meaning in the same place and separate places have pros and cons. There's not a fundamental better or worse. They're just different. I know lots of people who could make a living at what they love and they won't because they want to retain the freedom. — They want and love for that which they love. — And my poetry my way. — Fascinating. So it's like it's just like a different form of golden handcuffs. — It's relationship with the constraint of being a finite being. M I have um yeah I mean it's it is funny it's a funny perspective shift because I love music and there was a time in my life not anymore but when I you know romanticize this idea of being able to make music for a living and I was never like good enough to do that I don't think right — um but over the years I've amassed a number of like really talented really successful friends who you know for all — um by all metrics have made it as musicians And um and sometimes, you know, being intimate, like not intimate, but like close friends with them, um you do get the sense that they feel burned out just like the rest of us, you know. — Oh, yeah. — And the game has really changed. I was just talking to a 47-year-old singer, songwriter, successful musical artist from Nashville, um who is suffering, has a family of three. working, but you know, very much expresses what most people will tell you about the music business, the music business now, which is it has never ever been easier to get your work out there and never ever been harder to make a living doing it. — It's so true — because you can't sell music. Music's free. — Yeah. — So, it's all about touring. It's all about touring and stick and swag and it's exhausting. — And you're bound to the road. I mean, — you are He's a 47year-old father of three and he's not really into touring 275 days a year anymore. — Wow. It's crazy because everybody I mean everybody — you have to — Yeah. looks at being a rock star as like the ultimate — Yeah. — ideal. — Yeah. The stones are still on the road. — They're still on the road after all these years. Yeah. I mean and dealing with that like you know the ephemeral you know what is that? What was that movie with Bill Murray? Um Lost in Translation. Lost in Trans. Yeah. Such a fantastic film. — Is meaning something that we find or something that we build? — Oh, I'm so glad you asked because the answer is um yes and no or hopefully yes and yes. Um, one of the lines we're using these days is stop waiting around to find the meaning of life. Start designing more meaning in life. No. Um, so I'm answering your question like thing two is better. It's not better. It's more accessible. But your preposition really matters. So the meaning of life, the ultimate existential, aspirational, on my deathbed can I answer the question, did it matter? Yes. And in retrospect, I feel good about that. if that's kind of the meaning of life, which is the thing that people have been, you know, breaking their pick on for literally thousands of years, and rightly so. It's a question we should live aspirationally toward, but you can't answer it. Um, and so from a design point of view, you know, we're design guys. We elect to build things real people can use in real time. So, a better design question, a better problem to work on solvable problem is how could I make more meaning in life? Now, so that's what we're working on is so how to live the meaningful life right now — and is that what you're doing with the Stanford Design Lab that you've created? — The Stanford left Design Lab um has the uh the mission of applying the innovation principles of design thinking to the wicked problem of designing your life. — That's what we're moving to. We we're just the guys to take this design thinking innovation methodology and apply it to yourself, not to a product. and we apply to you apparently pretty broadly about life design, career design and now meaning design. Um and then the objective what's the outcome is if you pull this off if we give you the tools effectively um we will have given you a conscious competency and awareness that you know how to go about [clears throat] life and vocational way finding how to find your way. Life is a long improv skit but you can get better at improv. We teach improv skills. Hm. What are the core

tenets of life design? [sighs] — Well, the core observations of what we're doing when we're designing life is we start with um it's a wicked problem. That's a technical term. Um there are lots of ways to think. So design thinking which is the modern name of human- centered design. So Stanford started this saying back in 1963 which was the lunatic fringe at the time. um where design isn't just crafts is the you know millennia of history of craft design, artistic design, graphic design, 3D design, furniture here in Southern California, car design at the auto at the art center. Um that's been around forever. You can get a masters in design at Stanford and still be lousy at drawing. And real designers go, "That's morally wrong. " We go, "Whoa, whoa. We're doing an innovation methodology approach. " So there's a method approach to design and there's a craft approach to design. We're the method guys and the method says you start with the way things are and then you define the best possible problem to work on that's generative and freeing and then you have a bunch of ideas and go forward about it. So when we do the empathy step on life design, we run into a couple of things that people seem to be getting wrong and that's getting them stuck unnecessarily. Probably the biggest one is, you know, I'm supposed to figure it out supposed to is this it? Is this what my life should be? Have I found the meaning of my life? I found my purpose, my passion. And we kind of go, "No, there's more aliveness than every in every single person than one lifetime permits them to live out. I. e. there's more than one of you in there. " Which Max are we seeing today? — Um, and so since there's more than one of you in there, that's the good news. So, you're not all going to happen. Okay, that's fine. And now, which of you should we give a try to? And oh, by the way, which is the right way? There's no one right you. There are lots of good use. And it turns out we don't know this thing called the future. We so you can't analyze it. You can't engineer the right answer because there is no right answer. Um you can't technically you know quantify it because it's an experience. So what you have to do is try it. So design is an empirical bottomup experimentation approach to life. We call it prototype iteration. Got an idea? let's go try a pro a prototype and learn something about it and iterate that prototype enough times so you say I think this is a keeper let's go do I'm gonna do this podcast thing I think it's going to work for me um and then you make a commitment and off you go so life design turns out to be an artful way of iterating ideas into reality

— now how long should it take before you decide whether or not to settle on this version of yourself — versus to pivot out of it and try something else — that question comes up a lot it's a really so like when do I do this, you know, and our answer is um when life in your soul tells you it's time. Look, first of all, we all want it both ways. I can tell you exactly what's wrong with my life right now. What aspirations, what longings are unmet, that's okay. You know, that just means I'm not dead yet. Um but when it's like it this is really not working for me and maybe there are times when it's really not working for me, but I'm constrained. There's actually nothing I can do about it. And what I need to learn how to do is get the most from it I possibly can and suffer the rest nobly. Um, you know, when I'm stuck in [clears throat] the house because of bad air and the fires in Northern California and my wife is literally dying of cancer. Um, and we can't go anywhere and just watching her die. Um, that kind of sucks. I'd really rather pivot from that. There's no pivoting. There's getting through it well. So, there are times when you just have to get through it. But if you're not stuck, truly stuck and it's not working for you, then let's make a move. So, but there's no rule. It's not every three years. It's not every, you know, year and a half. It's not every 10. It's when life says, "Hey, it's time. " — Yeah. And I think failure is part of the course, but don't they say in tech that like you're always better off failing fast? Like you don't want to like fail slowly, right? — Well, okay. So, we talk about failure immunity, you know, which is um fail faster to succeed sooner. — Now, what that's a clever line. Um, and it actually confuses a lot of people when we're talking about that as designers. We, the failure we're talking about is the prototype. The purpose of our prototypes is to go learn something. I don't really know anything about podcasting. What would that be like? Maybe I could sit in and watch what Max does. You know, I can find out what these people are doing. What the heck is a creator economy? Maybe I could go up to Boisey and visit Nathan Barry, who runs Kit, that's the backdrop for a whole bunch of these guys, and see what's going on with this creator economy anyway. I don't understand this thing, you know? So, I go listen in on it. in order to see what's going on there. And then as that evolves over time, it either starts making sense to me or it doesn't make sense to me. Um, and then I start looking for opportunity to participate. So those are the kind of steps you would go through. Uh, but you don't know going in how it's going to work. So each of those steps like, oh, I went in and I sat in on this podcast and it was boring. Well, okay, that's one, you know, so is that I don't like Max or I don't like podcasts. So go do three or four more. And if they quote fail, that's you can't fail because all I wanted to do was learn something. — So in design, a prototype's job is to learn something experientially. It's not what I call an engineering prototype. So let's say this microphone has, you know, a sound a breath cover on it so you don't get that sound when I do that. And we're trying to make sure that thing works properly. So I've got four of them here. And I think this is the right one. And now I'm going to test it. I'm going to call that a prototype. And my goal in testing that microphone cover is does it work? And then it doesn't work. It goes shoot I got to go back to the drawing board. So an engineering prototype asks the question does this work well and am I done? Am I right? [snorts] That's very different than hey I wonder how this works. Let's go learn something. So the prototypes we do in design are all about learning. So you can't fail unless you've paid no attention and didn't learn something. So now that I'm learning something, I'm failure immune. I can't fail because I'm learning my way forward. And if I do that faster, I will eventually learn my way to the thing I really want to do. So fail faster to succeed sooner. That's where that line comes from. — Um now it then gets pushed asmmptoically out to the edge world like you know run fast and break things. That's the other Silicon Valley oneliner. Some of that's just lore. It's kind of sort of the XG games meets venture capital or something. Um but we're not saying it's great to fail. What we're saying is you have to iterate to learn your way forward. — Interesting. So would you say the

crux of your work with this with your latest book is to apply the principles of design to discovering one's own meaning in their lives. — It's is applying the principles of design to being able to design the experience of having more meaning day-to-day in the life I'm already in. That's the goal we pursued because what we found was people were looking in too small a corner. If the only ways I can be confident my life is meaningful is because of the impact I've had and change the world or because I feel I am fulfilled. If those are the two things I have to have in order to check the meaning box, you know, that's not going to work for most people most of the time. And I can explain why if we want to. Um so what we read, we reframe the problem to what is solvable. You know, if it's not solvable, it's not a problem. It's a circumstance. So I don't want to just accept an immovable circumstance. I want to solve a real problem. And the real problem is there are lots of other ways to experience meaning making that are more available. Let's go get good at those right now. — Yeah. So how do we do that? — So first thing when we looked at those two [clears throat] problems of impact and fulfillment, the problem with impact is first of all impact is a lovely thing. I'm trying to have an impact. You're However, the thing about impact is [clears throat] number one, it's a thing and you're not. So even if you have an impact, your experience of what it means to you and to the world atrophies quickly. The halflife on that is very short. I got called by the US Olympic Committee. Could you please help us? Help you what? You guys are the best in the world. Well, it's there's nothing as exciting as ascending the Olympic DAS and getting your medal or as terrifying as coming back down. So now you're on the other side of this thing. If you've got the impact, I'm the best in the world. Three, two, one. What have you done for me lately? Uh, and that's true of all kinds of people. So impact doesn't last. And frankly, most of the time it doesn't work because even if you do everything right, there's all these other unintended consequences or things over which you have no control. The other 8 billion people might go off script when you're not looking and something doesn't work out. So, oh shoot. So, if I'm banking on impact, most of the time it doesn't work. If it does work, it doesn't last. So, now I'm stuck in a never enough treadmill. So, I need to look elsewhere. And then the fulfillment thing, you can't [clears throat] be fulfilled because you're bigger than a lifetime. So according to Abraham Maslo in 1943 the defining paper of the hierarchy of needs self-actualization from which one gets fulfillment it's in print 1943 what do you have to do become all that you can be well we know you are more than you have time to become so if I have to be fully manifested that would be the way we'd say it now um you can't because you can't you haven't got enough time so you're doomed you're going to run out of gas before you get to the end of that road so those two things run out of gas and Both of them share one thing. They're transactions. They're getting something done. They're accomplishing some outcome. And [clears throat] there's another world. It's really another consciousness. So your brain can't gro the whole world all the time. But there's a bigger world going on than this transactional world where we're getting stuff done all the time and making impacts and fulfilling, you know, expressing ourselves. There's this experience of the moment that I'm in right now, which we call the flow world. We've all heard about flow. The psychology of optimal experience, being in the zone. Well, where is it that being in the state of flow happens? The place it happens is what we call the flow world, which is really just the present moment, the thing that's actually happening in front of us right now. So, like right now, I'm sitting across the table. I'm looking at Max and am I thinking about how many people are going to dial into this thing? How much in real time? How much is going to be streaming? Is that going to move the needle on sales or not? I mean, what's his market segmentation anyway? So if that's where I'm at, I'm all in the transactional world, which is about outcomes. And those outcomes are in a place called the future, which is a place not here. In fact, where it is in my head, as opposed to nice table, you know, and I got such a lovely greeting. Max is sitting in a lawn chair out in the front and goes, "Hey, welcome. " You know, this whole thing starts with this welcome experience like here's a really thoughtful guy who wants to see me. Am I actually connecting with this conversation? That's what's happening right now. So the flow world is what's right here and the transactional world is frankly what's behind me evaluating and judging or in front of me preparing and aspiring. But in between there's this thing called the present moment and can I enter into that present moment. that the there are these other we've identified four categories of experience in the present moment in the flow world where we have access to experiences that are alive making human fulfilling and therefore meaningful which are wonder the experience of awe and wonder things bigger than yourself. Flow itself entering into flow which we think is much more available than you've been told before. Coherence when you actually catch yourself in the act of acting like yourself. and then formative community when you're with other people not just in a hanging out for fun way but in a becoming better people way. So those four categories which are not the comprehensive definition of meaning by any means but we're pretty sure all four of those are available to almost everybody almost all the time. So that's lowhanging fruit. Go get it. — So at the intersection of those four components that's where you find meaning. — No in the experience of it at the time let's say wonder. — Mhm. — Okay. So, I go outside, you know, and there is the sunset and I'm actually focusing on it and it's terrific and it's actually gorgeous and it arrests me. It stops me. So, I'm actually having [clears throat] um an experience of self-trcendency. So, Maslo actually realized, by the way, that he was wrong. He always suspected that self-actualization wasn't the top of the pyramid. And in late in his 70s, just before he died, and therefore he never published, though others have, but not many people have heard about it, surprisingly, the top layer isn't self-actualization. It's self-trcendence. And the result of actualization is fulfillment. It's all about me. The result of transcendence is meaning making. So if I want a meaning experience, it's not like I want to be all of me. I actually want to have an experience of something bigger than me. I am part of that which is bigger than me is the best way to feel like being the real you. get beyond yourself. So the sunset reminds me that there's something really big going on out there and it kind of enliven me and my center of my chest warms up and I get this alive experience. And so that's human making and it's meaningful because it reminds me that I'm participating in this bigger than myself thing. It's not a result. It's not an outcome. It's an experience that's more human making. So that which is more human making, more alive making, more self-realizing is a meaningful experience. Now it's short, but I'm coming back tomorrow because they're going to make another one and most of the stuff is free. Joseph Campbell finished Joseph Campbell when being interviewed years ago on PBS said, you know, the same meaning, I'm not sure that's really it. I think what people are really after is just the rapture of being alive. M — um the competing title for the book was fully alive. — Wow. — Um and so the point being you can't be fulfilled because there's too much of you. Isn't that the good news? But you can be fully alive. You can be entirely present to what's going on in a way that feels as alive as you can get. — So those components then I just want to make sure that I understand it. They are the necessary but not sufficient conditions in each independent of one another. Yes. — For being in the present moment. — Yeah. While in the moment I have I I'm tapping into that transcendent thing that allows me to feel the kind of the fullness of my humanity. So wonder takes me into this awe thing that strikes me bigger than myself. Flow. I fully drop into the engaged thing. I am so involved and so engaged that it animates me in coherence. [clears throat] I'm aware that I am actually living out consistency with my values and my priorities which has this aspirational feel of moving toward my authentic self. that feels alive making and formative community. I'm in a place where the real me and the real you are echoing back and forth in this uh generative way that's actually accumulating and feels incredibly alive making. So all of these things affirm I'm here. I deserve to exist. This thing's on its way to becoming better. Let's do it again. — It's so cool. I mean and they they can sometimes overlap, can they not? — Totally. Sure. like all wonder like looking at a grand vista panoramic view a beautiful sunset um that's I mean there are definitely experiences of flow that I would say have also — coincided with group flow I mean the team sports everybody's was playing out of their minds you they drop into this deep level of engagement at the same time or while dancing you know you're dancing better than you ever did what happened there you know

— is there a difference between meaning and purpose — sure uh so meaning purpose vocation calling thing we get into all that stuff. Um so purpose is directional. It's moving me toward something, right? — And so I think um we speak about both purpose and meaning have this problem of the false singularity. — What is the meaning of my life? Have I found my one true purpose? And this singularity idea is what gets in people's way because they they they're on track for a purpose, but [sighs] I don't think it's quite it. So, I guess I haven't found it yet. Um, and that's not and it's not wrong that you haven't found it yet, but you're wrong that there isn't it. We define the simplest way to understand what is a person is that a human being is a becoming where an unfolding reality. So, if I'm not all here yet, and I'm a dynamic growing thing, how can I now know what my 80-year-old self knows that I don't? So, meaning might change, purpose might change. I want to live meaningfully, and I want to direct my life purposefully, work on things that matter. But is that the endgame? Not so sure. Is it the perfect answer? No. But it's good enough for now. Hm. And which of those two are is the is there one of the two that are more closely related with happiness? I think that might be depend on the individual. Um so if meaning is a little more experiential and purpose aspirational if I just put it that way. One is more about um my engagement of the moment. The other is about the direction I'm moving. Um there are some people who are a little more future oriented. uh maybe the impact thing is more important to them. Um some people more about the fullness of their experience. You know, if I'm going to read Wordsworth, it's pretty experiential. read, you know, Daniel Conorman is pretty future oriented. So, it I think it depends a little on the trajectory of the life. I don't think all people are wired the same that way.

— Very interesting. How do you know if you're chasing meaning versus just feeling relief from discomfort? — Yeah. So, where does solace leave off and meaning begin? Um, well, I think meaning is pretty comforting. Um, though I don't think it's anesthetizing. So, genuine meaning experiences are always enlivening. They're always in reality. Um, so they never take you away from reality. out of things. Um, they may focus you on something, but they're not removing you. You know, there's not avoiding we're not avoiding pain. Um, we're not avoiding anything. Um, so I think being more comfortable can for many people be about the elimination of difficulty. Um, meaning is about entering fully into the moment. Um, so a lot of meaning-making things are difficult. There there's there can be high friction. There can be pain. There can be suffering. Um, those are all compatible with meaning. They're not necessarily compatible with comfort. — Is there an aspect of meaning that you find to be widely misunderstood among high performers? Yeah, the chief one is that it's just about high performance that it's all about outcomes, you know. Um and uh if I'm stuck on that singular on that single point of view, that's the number one problem, you know. And not only is that a misunderstanding, it's a misunderstanding with a long tail on it. Uh we just had a long conversation with Bob Waldinger, who is the um he's an MD psychiatrist on the Harvard faculty. — We've had him on the show. He's great. — He's a great guy. the Harvard study, the 80-year long running, — yeah, the longest running adult study of human behavior ever done on the planet, the Grant Study, you know, long run by George Valiant, then and then took taken over by his colleague Bob Waldinger some years ago. He writes the book, The Good Life. He's come to the show. He's a great guy. Oh, and happens to be a Zen master. That's kind of cool. — So, my partner Bill and I um sat in his living room a couple of weeks ago and chatted about these things for a couple of hours. Um had office hours, you know, and this question came up. We were talking about it and Bob chimes he goes oh yeah this is in fact it's a bigger problem than you think this overindexed on goals [clears throat] because we now know physiologically from science that the difference between exttrinsic motivators and intrinsic motivators is significant. through exttrinsic motivators, success, outcomes, money, save the world, solve cancer, fix fat reduction, you name it. Those are all exttrinsic, outside in motivators. Good things. Then intrinsic, you know, beauty, love, compassion, sincerity, um those are inside out. We now know that if a life is lived overwhelmingly indexed on exttrinsic motivators at the expense of intrinsic motivators, you not only are cutting short your experience, you are atrophying your capacity to sense them. — So the part of your brain and your physiology that actually can respond to the intrinsic motivator reaction system starts weakening. You are de literally dehumanizing yourself. And so if you want to have the whole human experience um what Lisa Miller calls all of your both awakened brain and your achieving brain we have a much more sophisticated understanding of the right brain left brain thing now um but the left brain the achieving brain was getting stuff done you know has taken over you know because technology has allowed us to be so productive and so optimized all the time and this feedback loop of a result I got paid we won we grew the company we fixed this thing we made new friends We expanded the house you know so well if it's meaningful what happened I mean we are completely organized around production but there's also participation I'm not just a production engine not a chunk of a big factory called humanity I'm a living breathing embodied intelligence that's having this experience of being alive I'm a participant in the flow world in the present moment and if I don't tap into that I'm going to lose it — so there's a little bit of a threat there actually Yeah, it's uh it's super interesting. So, exttrinsic motivation is not necessarily better than or worse than intrinsic motivation, but it can't occur at the expense of the intrinsic motivators. — If it if it's focused on exclusively, it will be at the expense. That's the issue. So, you know, one way to get your hands on this is one of the really popular TED talks is Jill Bolt Taylor's My Stroke of Insight. — Yes. — A classic. So here's this, you know, scientific neurologist who rather inconveniently has a massive brain tumor in her left brain, uh, and loses her left brain, almost dies, uh, takes eight years to recover, but then has this experience of being an entirely rightrained person, which transforms her experience of real, oh my god, it is so different when this part of my consciousness is actually running the store. And now she's a big fan of whole brain, you know, not one or the not right brain's cool and left brain's bad. This isn't, you know, win-lose. This is I want to be a whole person. So, we're just advocating for people being whole people. — Human- centered design is prohuman. — Human- centered design. It's super

interesting. What about for people like you back in your in the days of you in that college advisor's office that can't — that are struggling to figure out what it is that they want, — right? We had a p uh an episode of the show recently where we were talking about the fact that everybody wants to be at, you know, 10% body fat. Everybody wants to have won the marathon to have, you know, achieved whatever it is that their goal is. But not everybody is necessarily willing to do the work that it takes to achieve those goals, — right? Well, we all want it both ways. I want to have my cake and eat it too. still have 2% body fat. you. Um, so — but if you're not willing to do the work, does that mean that you just don't want it enough? — Well, clearly you don't want it enough. No. Um, some things are harder to get than others. In fact, I had dinner last night with Jason. So, Jason's a young man I met 20 years ago. Kept coming back to office hours. I've ended up mentoring him for a long, long time. Lovely guy. Dropped out of the womb with the most incredibly hard-edged discipline of any person I have ever met. He has in the last six weeks dropped 12 pounds and reduced his fat percentage by 50%. Because he got a bad blood report. He's 49, about to turn 50. And his doctor said, "Well, you know, we're either going to put you on statins and a bunch of other stuff. You got to do this outrageously demanding diet thing. " He goes, "Okay, I'll do the diet thing. " And bang, he just pivots. Never looks back. Every time he makes a decision, he does 100% implementation. He is devoid of bad habits. He, you know, he's disciplined to death. It's inc I I've often said to him, "I covet your brain chemistry. they have no idea what that behavior is like. Um, so it's easier for some than others. Um, but look, you know, I'm a free will oriented person. We do what we choose to do. So if you're not willing to go there, then either be honest with yourself or up the game. And it's easy to want things. I mean, everybody wants everything. But if you're honest with yourself about what am I really desirous, what what do I long for enough to actually pursue and lean into that and cut yourself some slack on the stuff you don't really want? I mean, frankly, let go the goals you don't care enough about to pursue because why sign up for a failure you didn't invest in the first place. You just assigned yourself a failure electively. — I have no intention of doing this thing, but I'm going to make myself feel bad for not doing it. — That's so true. Yeah, — it's just stupid. It is well and but it's something that we're all we all can be vulnerable to — but we're on ourselves. So Bill and I said look we try very hard to be neither prescriptive nor proscriptive. I'm not here to tell you who Max is you know what you really need to do Max that's not my thing. We do ideas and tool we reframe your problem to make it more manageable if we can and then we give you ideas and tools about how you might approach it. It's up to you what to do with that. um any worldview, any life goal, you you're in charge of that stuff. So, you know, why do I want to sign up for claiming that I want things I won't pursue? I'm shoulding. I should want to run a marathon. I should want to, you know, whatever. Um find, you know, sleep seven and a half hours a night, you know, not get a, you know, not drink on Friday, whatever it is. Um and I really don't want to do that. And so I'm shooting on myself and I'm just creating my own little shame engine, you know. Um, which I don't find particularly generative, you know. Um, now if you're genuinely guilty and there's you're making a mistake, you're mailing it in. Okay. And you want some people to help support your discipline and your commitment, that's great. I've got I just got off the call this morning with TD3 Tom and Three Daves, my 51-year-old support group. I formed in 1974. And we call each other on our crap, you know, and so you want some people around you spotting you on the equipment. So you bring your best game, — but don't sign up for stuff you're not signed up for. — Yeah. Amen. I think you've got to want it, but it bad. Um, you know, I think people, especially in the era of social media, people there are these ideals that are projected on social media because when you're on social media, you're scrolling through people's highlight reels. Yeah. Essentially, while living your own gag reel. Yeah. And people see things that they want on social media, but what is not often disclosed on social media is the hard work that it has taken to get to achieve those goals. — Yeah. Or at least to appear that you have. — Yeah. — Look, I'm sympathetic. When I was gosh, what 34, 33, something like that, um I happened to be a very religious person, you know, and I noticed that my prayer life, which I thought was important, you know, sucked. I was lousy at it, you know. And so I was talking to this older woman who was a deeply spiritual person and a PhD psychologist. So she's really highly trained, very strong truthtelling kind of person. I said, "Margot, you know, I'm really struggling because, you know, I really do want to pray. I want to get pray more, you know, and try some I just can't get there. I don't understand what the problem is. Keep getting my own. I really don't get it. " And I wasn't lying. I don't get my own non-performance. And she goes, "You just don't want to. " I go, "No, no, I really do. " She goes, "No, you don't. " And we got in this ar I was really pissed like, "Where do you get off? I am sincerely in a conundrum here. " And she goes, "No, you're not. You know, if you cared, you'd be praying, and you're not praying, so you don't care about praying. You're lying to yourself. " — Wow. — She's back saying, "I thanks for sharing, Dave, but you're full of shit. " And I was really offended. — And about 15 years later, I went, "Oh, now I get it. " M — so I think um I wasn't being self um deluding in an intentional way but I didn't have the freedom to objectively stand back and watch my son go well David know the last 15 times that you set the alarm for 6:30 to get up early and pray for a half hour before the kids wake up you just flipped off the alarm and went back to bed. Do you notice that? So every single time you just rolled back over, went back to sleep. You'd rather sleep than pray. So if that's what's actually going, your problem isn't the technique of getting up. Your problem is you're not ready to do this. — I should be asking a different question. — So then the question is, oh, I guess I really just think I should be praying. I don't really want to. Why don't I want to? And that's a different question. So, very often when there's this thing we keep not doing, — your apparent confusion at why it's not working is probably blocking you from what's really going on. — Well, also in the moment you were choosing what you wanted then versus what you wanted most. — And then so my narrative was but if and but you know after the 14th or 15th time, wouldn't what I want most start to creep in at least a little bit? Because there are other examples of things I did want most that I would care about — and it would show up for. — We were terribly busy. We had small children. My wife and I weren't having sex very often. We found I we need to make time for that. I made time for that.

— Are we in a meaning a crisis of meaning right now? — I think we are. Uh Bill and I chatted for 18 to 24 months after we sort of conceived the book. we ended up with a whiteboard one day and said, "Oh, I think there's a book there. " Um, and then, yeah, but do we deserve to write it? Um, because the underlying wisdom that informs why this stuff might be helpful has been around for a long time. The wisdom traditions have known this for a long time. You know, it's it really is largely about the present moment. It's got some really good reframes for the present way we think about the problem. There are 23 exercises in it, all of which are accessible within minutes, so hopefully it's a pretty quick ladder to impact in changing the way you experience these things. but I don't think it's brand new. And so I we were saying, are we wasting our time and wasting the paper or are we taking a new take on an old wisdom that the modern world needs to hear? And we actually decided we didn't know. And then our agent said, I think there is a book here. Why don't we let the publishers decide? So we said, okay, we'll make the effort to write a proposal, which is a fair bit of work, and if the publishers think people want to read this book, we'll let them read the book. And they sure did. So we said, okay. and after you take the advance, you really should write the book. So, we wrote the book, but in the process, um, I think what is going on, especially, you know, for Jenz and down, um, is wait, there's got to be more than this. I was made for more than this, and no one's telling me how to get it, and I don't feel confident I'm going to get to, and I really feel stuck. So, this isn't as normative as it once was. And people are in some real struggle. We've lost the institutions that used to form people, you know, whether it was the church or whether it was your neighborhood family. You know, everybody's kind of making themselves up from scratch on their own, stuck in their own little Zoom box and they're lonely and they're hurting. So, I think we need a couple of aids and we we're just trying to give people some tools. — Yeah. It's fascinating. I mean, the the idea of the environment and like environment design. — Yeah. — And how space design. Yeah. — Yeah. Space design. How can we better architect, better design or curate our environments to be more conducive of meaning making? — Well, part of it, one of the simplest things we can do is get back in the conversation. So, we talk about formative community and what we mean by that is a different kind of a conversation. It's a conversation around intent, not content. Um, so just allowing pe we if I'm in the conversation with you because you're a becoming human being and I'm a becoming human being. Well, how's that becoming going for you, Max? What and what are you trying to become toward at this particular point in your life? You know, if we were in that conversation with each other, we start actually feeling like we're part of something that's bigger than ourselves and it makes more sense to us. We really are social animals. It's not just emotional contagion. We now that we now know consciousness is in fact a collective reality. So, we put people in these conversations all the time, complete strangers in these seemingly very intimate conversations. Um, and they work surprisingly well because it turns out you can't almost can't hear yourself by yourself. We're made to be in community. relationship and if I get to be around other people who are having a conver thinking reflectively and conversing about these kind of issues on a regular basis, you know, it starts working a lot better. So, just if nothing else, find a place to have the conversation. And you listed off a few um places that have traditionally been facilitative of these conversations. — Yeah. — Church, synagogue, school. — School school. — Um can social media be used in a productive way? — Well, I think in that in this regard, — I think we could be technologically interrelated in meaningful ways. I mean, whether social media itself, whether or not my Facebook page is actually going to bring me meaning, um I'm a little skeptical. Um, first it's got so much momentum going the other way. I think turning that boat at this speed is going to be a little tough. Um, but we can absolutely leverage these technologies. I mean, we've seen people have profoundly enlivening engagements with one another, even almost strangers on Zoom, you know. So, it does facilitate that. — Um, so I think we can absolutely use technology. Um, but I don't necessarily think um it's not about the per it's not about anything performative. It's got to be facilitative. Those are really

different verbs. — Has there been an experience that you've had that most changed your understanding of meaning? — Wow. Well, not to be melodramatic, but the truthful answer to your question is, yeah, my wife's death. There's no question that going through during the year 2020, my wife Claudia was, you know, on her first day in the diagnostic office, um, declared terminal. So she went in one day thinking she had bronchitis and came out with terminal cancer. — Oh man. — Um and she had anywhere from six to 24 months depending how the chemo went. We got nine. Um so that year of her dying which is the 2020 year. So we had the three C's COVID cancer and confflgration because the California fires were nearby. We were less than a mile from an evacuation zone. So it was pretty heavy year. — Um and so going through that was profound. And then the first year after her death, the initial grief year was profoundly impactful. So, and it really changed the way I see everything. — That's horrible. — Well, um, no, no, it's not. First of all, it's profoundly normal. This death thing, it's going around. — I don't know if you've heard about this, but it's, um, it's getting very popular. Everybody's doing it. — Um, now there's a timing question, you know. So, I mean, um, a seemingly morally premature death is a little is sad. The conclusion we made when Claudia first got the diagnosis, we sat on it. We didn't tell anybody for eight days. We said, "We we got to figure out what the story is here. How do we hold this? " And she came up with, "It's sad, not tragic. " She was 69. There's really nothing on the bucket list I need to have done. So, there's nothing like, you know, the kids are raised. We're kind of good to go here. Um, I really wanted that other 15 years we claimed we would give each other. So, she broke the contract. We're going to have a conversation later about that, but nonetheless, um, so I I'm outing early, but you know, it's just sad. It's not tragic. Um, and so we you have to frame what the story is going into that experience. So, that wasn't that was really unwanted, but it's not horrible. It's just the way things come down. And so what we did is once you accept it, so we talk about radical acceptance as part of the mindset for a designer. Radical acceptance plus availability. If you want to have a meaningful life, you have to be in reality and available to what it's going to offer you. So we said, okay, we're dying. What's diet got to offer? You know, this is part of the human experience has been forever. There's got to be a gift here. — And we found huge gifts. Um, but you have to be available to them. So it wasn't wanted. And if we had resisted it all the way down, no, no, no, no. You know, um it would have just been horrible. My friend James Ston says that marriage either ends in death or divorce. And if you had to choose one, you'd probably choose death. — Yeah, I've done both. Um I'm about to marry for the third time. So I was married um for 24 years to a wonderful woman who's a fabulous mother. We were really good at all the engineering of domesticity and terrible at husband and wife. Finally put the dog down as an act of kindness. We're still friends. Um, got married to the love of my life and then she outed on the cancer thing 15 years early. Okay, fine. And oddly enough, yet another sentient being is willing to sign up to hang. I would not live with me if I didn't have to. Wow. — Um, but somebody else is volunteering to do it. So this amazing woman named Fresh Brand is willing to get married to me. Um, — Masletov. — And indeed, all love ends in loss. Mhm. — The first time I heard that, I went, "Wait, that's not true. " Then, "Oh my god, it is true. " Um, so yeah, as soon as you fall in love, you just signed up for a bunch of pain. So, I feel kind of grateful that God apparently decided that I was the stronger party and I had the capacity to learn the lessons that being the survivor of love would teach. Um, because Claudia didn't have to go through that. — What gives your life meaning now? — Oh gosh. Um, frankly, not to be selfish, but I mean, it's kind of firing on all cylinders. I mean, I get to do interesting work. meaningful work that matters. Um, I find myself sitting in conversations with people all the time in individual and small groups, in large groups about the single most important thing on their minds, on their hearts. I that's the hardest ticket to get to any show is a front row center seat to the heart of the matter in another soul's life. I happen to be sitting in that seat about 20 hours a week. Um so I'm incredibly humbled and grateful for that. Um I'm healthy enough at this age to get to do fun stuff. So I get to sail my boat and ride my motorcycle and play on my dog and my eight bicycles and my 11 grandkids. um and talk to interesting people like Max and um and try to change things for the better if I possibly can. Um and now, you know, I'm not drowning in money because I kept walking away for money to buy time back because I wanted to see my kids. I kept giving up my career over and over again kind of foolishly, but I have enough money to get by and pretty comfortably. So, that means I've got enough time to smell the roses pretty deeply. And all these tools we talk about, we've tried and they work. — So, um I'm incredibly grateful.

What question should people ask themselves more frequently? — Uh, what gift is your longing trying to give you? you? — Yeah. This little the um longing, this thing we desire, this thing that's pulling us that hasn't quite happened yet, of which we would like some more. Um, arises as in a little bit of a form of pain, kind of a winsome pain. But it really is this gift is what keeps you moving into the human experience. Um, and so what do you long which of your longings looks like it's the most lifegiving? one that loves you the most. It's respects you the most. And if you could give into it some, where would it take you? And you might be scared to start going down that pathway. You might be confused about how to go down that pathway. It might feel risky in terms of loss and what if it doesn't work. Um but give yourself a chance for your longing to take you to a place that will at least grow you whether it works or not. — Lean into it a little bit. — Yeah. Lean into your longing — if not a lot. — You don't have to tip over right away. bet the farm. You don't have to jump out of the airplane. But you know, lean into your longing. — Beautifully put. Well, thanks for writing this book. This is a fascinating topic. fascinating conver conversation, fascinating uh set of principles applied onto something that we all as humans struggle with. We want you to believe that this is easier than they said. Flow is more accessible than you thought. You don't have to meditate for seven hours between 5 and 7 in the morning like you used to think. You know, um everybody's frankly performatizing everything. You're like, "Hey man, I'm getting really good at my meditation practice. I think I can get my 20 minutes down to 18. " you just transactionalized the experience of meditation. So like if this we call it flipping the switch, you can access this way of being, you know, for a couple of seconds almost any time. Um it's not as hard as they told you and start small, see how it goes. We're going to come back tomorrow and try again. — Love it. Well Dave, thanks for coming

out. I've got one last question for you, but before — Thanks for having me. This is really generous of you. — Of course. So fun. Where can people pick up your book, How to Live a Meaningful Life? And uh if you're on social media, drop your handle so that people can follow you. — Yeah. Come on down. So the website is designing your life. Designing your. life. There's a period between you know your life. So designing your. life will take you to everything. You'll find quickly an invitation to buy the book. You find an invitation to sign up for the newsletter. The new newsletter fully alive by design. That's also the Instagram handle. So try those things on. And if you're not even sure about these, look, sign up for the newsletter once a week. short little thing with a think, a learn, and a do. Think about this. Maybe you'll learn this. Try this. So, do a couple of those tries after a couple of weeks. If they work, then buy the book and see if you can do more. Where can you buy the book? Anywhere books are sold, hardback, Kindle, audio, you name it, we got it.

— Amazing. What does living a genius life mean to you? paying attention to the powerful truths that you know are true but haven't fully responded to yet. — Kind of leaning into that genius self, that thing that's really true about you. Go with it. Amen. Thanks for coming out. — Thanks for having me. — Yeah. Thank you guys for listening. Appreciate you. Leave a rating and review on your podcast app of choice if this episode resonated with you. And um I will catch you on the next episode. Peace everybody. Peace out. — Hey, if you like that video, you need to check out this one here and I'll see you there.