Rishi Sunak & Akshata Murty: Power, Identity & Why Patience Beats Ambition | Nikhil | People by WTF
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Segment 1 (00:00 - 05:00)
I'm not going to talk to Axita like she's Rishi's wife or Nara and Morti's daughter. — Uh forget Rishi and your dad. Where does Axita's validation come from? — From genuinely having impact. — How was the journey Rishi from going from being a person who was at Goldman Sachs to becoming the prime minister of UK? I know it's a big question. — Yeah. A lot more young people need to participate in politics. — For somebody sitting on the outside, — a young guy who wants to be in politics, — how hard is it? — Yeah. — Is it a is it that one person can actually change stuff? Tell me when we start. Huh? — Yeah. — You started? — Sure. — Okay. — Sorry. We I wouldn't mind it. Is it possible to get fresh lime soda? — Yeah, of course. — If that's if that's doable. Sweet. If — Yeah. — A girl. — Do you want salt in it as well? — I actually just sweet would be good. — Just sweet. So I've been in Alib the last few days. I just got back just now. — Which is, — pardon my geography, — which is a 30 minute boat ride from Bombay. — Oh, okay. — Yeah. — And that's like a hill stationish. — It's much like Bombay but no people, — right? — So like the Hamptons. — It's not prettier than Bombay. It's just emptier than Bombay. Yeah. — So you go there for a little bit of — No, we have this uh thing we are running called Foundry which is like a residential college for entrepreneurship. A threemonth course. — Okay. — So about 20 to 30 people get selected. — Yeah. So each cohort is 20 to 30. — Like the Y combinator I think. — Yeah. Very much. They get a half a million dollars. They get — to build the business while they live there in one house for 3 months. — Yeah. So, I was with the current batch, — right? — It's a good place to do it near Bombay because it's empty and nobody like — Sure. — And do did you set it up? — Yeah. How many batches have you gone through? Oh, this is the first. — Yeah. First batch. — That's super exciting. — Very exciting. — Is there anything else like that in India? Why Combinator and these guys are not here, right? — Yeah. And this one is very consumer focused. So, we're building 20 consumer brands. So one will be a candy company, one is to your dream. — Yeah. — And we can get into that. But I we started Catan Ventures doing that kind of thing. Yeah. — Yeah. So that you one is a candy company. — Yeah. One is a toothpaste company, one just makes jeans, one makes uh chocolates of a certain kind. Very interesting. — And there's normally VCs don't necessarily rush into consumer companies, right? So it's nice to have a source of not just capital but deep passion and expertise for this space. — Yeah. And in India when you see the GDP number growing at 6 to 7% — a really large component of that is consumers which is growing at — 12 13%. M — so the Indian consumer is saving less especially the younger generation and they're spending more — also I would say beginning to borrow more to spend more — which was not the case only when I grew — no not when I grew up you can say we grew up at the same time — we are somewhat contemporaries but I'll let you I let you run away with the younger person — probably in the same area as well — yeah — like maybe like five minutes away from each Yeah. — Have you selected the people where they all apply and you just go through and how many applications? — We created a AI quiz which is about 45 minutes. — Yeah.
Segment 2 (05:00 - 10:00)
— Uh a few thousand people cleared it and then we had a boot camp for the last four days where we went down from 75 people to 25 people which will be the first cohort. — This is so fun. — And the individuals do you then? So say there's a lady with a business plan. — Do you then find a team? Do they then meet potential team members in this cohort or do they — Yeah. So many of them team up and become co-founders. — Right. So the ideas are already there of what could be built — and we help to a large extent in manufacturing, distribution, marketing, content, packaging, all of that. — Yeah. — Uh so the idea is to really expedite the time to market and do it in the three months while they all live in one house. — Yeah. — Sounds great. Fascinating. What's it called? — Foundry. — It's called Foundry. — Foundry. We'd love to have you guys. I mean, I would love it. You would I will if you get her involved, Nicola, I won't be able to get her back home. And that's You've just described something that is probably her dream. — Something that I've been thinking about myself. — Kiran's going to be there for a few days. — Oh, so you bring in people to kind — And have you funded it, if you don't mind asking, you funded it yourself? — Yeah. — Fully. And then you have is it a standard term sheet that — Yeah, it's a fairly standard — they all start with that and then — all 20 of them get about half a million dollars beginning — and then in at the end of 3 months they need more money then we open it up for whoever wants to — at that point. Yeah. And you have you do you have a right but presumably an obligation to follow on if you want. Yeah. — I think we both have so many questions because it's so exciting. — Sounds great. So presumably you're investing like angel, right? — Yeah. I mean, — so the next step of funding um aside from you in the consumer space in India, do you find there are sufficient folks who can kind of put that kind of money in — in India? Yes. Because of the rate of growth in consumption, — which is the opposite of the western world. — Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Like you would find it just as easy to get money for consumer — as you would for tech in India. — Amazing. — Yeah. This sounds great. — Sounds really great. — Yeah. It should be fun. — And you can also film them like that. — We are making it a show. Yeah. Like seven episodes. — Yes. — What's the average age? — 28. — Oh, interesting. That's actually a bit — Yeah. — older than I would have thought. — It's funny. We realized that we have some who are really young or like 18 and 19, — but we ended up picking a lot of people who were in their late 30s as well. — Okay. — Just worked out that way. There was no plan going. — Yeah. No, you just saw who — Yeah. And we're making a TV show because — Yes, that's my thing. — We want to make them heroes before the product hits the market. So, people buy the product. — And Nikil, you and I know growing up who were the heroes of our time, right? Yeah, — you had incredible cricket folks. You — your dad and Jenner — and my dad so much. — But literally I think one of the reasons my dad stood out was because he was a man with an idea and a vision and a business plan really. And so you're saying let's take that — and make heroes out of these men and women. How cool is that? Like let's make business cool. I mean business is cool now. — Yeah. You know, I interviewed your dad a few years ago. — GG. — Yeah. — Oh, we didn't I didn't see that. — It was not on camera. It was — I have so many things to say, but we're on camera, SO I'M NOT GOING TO SAY A LOT of things. It was like a conversation we were having for a Karnataka government thing. — Correct. — Yeah. I see your mom every time Kiran has a — Correct. She's part — as a good event or a bad event. — She's part of the posi. — Yeah. The last time I met your mom, we were in a — where were we? — No, this was unfortunately when Kiran's husband had passed away and we were at the — 2022. [clears throat] — crematorium — and there was a poster of a god — on the ceiling. — So I was looking at it and she came up to me and she's like, "Nikl, do you know what that is? " It was the god who is in charge of — of death. — Yama Yamaraj. No, he's a god of crematoriums who's in charge of — very specific. — Yeah. — So, she sat me down and told me the story for like 10 minutes. This is his job. — You know, in Harido where there are many fires at the same time, — he's the guy in charge of keeping the
Segment 3 (10:00 - 15:00)
place running and moving one soul from here to there. — Very interesting story. — That is classic your mom and not at the kind of macro level of gods. It's — but she — some very — I think she is so passionate about storytelling. — Yeah. And then she deploys that skill whether she's writing for kids whether she's now you know she's a member of parliament by the raja saba whether she I think even when she was an engineer she somehow was able to put things together to have a narrative that appealed to people. — So I think really interesting. I mean you've seen that all the time. — I think it's a great gift in life. I think I look at it in a marvel that her ability to tell a story about anything in any context is a superpower because it's by far and away the most powerful way to communicate and she somehow has in her head just stories for everything for every age group every topic there'll be something — and in politics I feel like you've realized how important it is — I think But even in I think even in business in every like in everything it just if you can communicate through storytelling it's a — Yeah. — Did you have to learn to story tell? — I Yeah. It's something I've learned because of you and your mom. — It doesn't come as naturally to me. I approach things a bit more practically, a bit more analytically and but which is fine but it's not as effective for communicating certainly politically but I think in general but then I obviously — you are more like your mom right her instinctive way to explain something is with a story and I see how she does it with the kids — it's just how you see the world — but your mom isn't yeah but it's — you see the world in narratives you are people centric you put ideas together and naturally there's a kind of beginning, middle and end to it, but you don't consciously think about it. Obviously, — I agree with her. For a guy who looks like me, brownskinned, to become the prime minister of England, you have to be good at storytelling. — Yeah, that's nice of you to say. I — at your age — at my age look in I think obviously you have to be able to communicate reasonably well in politics. I think different times require different types of communication. Then the pandemic struck and so that was my introduction to the country. So I was doing a I was doing something that I was very comfortable in which was economic policy but that time I think was atypical Nikl because and I can't I don't know what it was like here but in in the UK and same similar in the US and other places everybody just watched the government press conference every evening — because people couldn't leave their homes as much everyone was at home and everyone was worried and so people in a way that they haven't done for decades most of the country just sat down at five or 6:00 or whatever time I think it was 5:00 we did these things and and then there would be a different minister every day on the TV talking to the country and that was my introduction it suited me because it didn't you didn't need to be a brilliant storyteller for what people wanted. What they wanted was — a clear communicator. — Yeah. They wanted someone who could explain things clearly, provide reassurance, and then do these things that would help them and explain, you know, what we were doing economically, how it was going to benefit them and with a hopefully reassuring tone. And you had this you had a captive audience who were hungry for that information. And so it probably suited my style. And then actually that you once politics gets back to normal and no one is tuning in for half an hour with a slightly more sympathetic bias as they're listening to you. That's when actually if you're able to communicate with storytelling, it would have served me better. Actually, — I watched a lot of your interviews. There aren't many. I think you guys have done very few interviews. — You mean together or — together? There are one or two Stanford one. Yes, we've done the Stanford one about Matt's — and that's a newer thing for us to do together is this charity. — Yeah. Well, and so you've seen a few of them — but I've never seen you speak about — life truly and not in a manner that you are doing today. — Yeah. — I hear about Axita's parents a lot.
Segment 4 (15:00 - 20:00)
Never about yours. — They're awesome. — Yeah. — In fact, I went through a period where I said, Trishi, I'm not sure if I want to marry you or not, but then I don't want to lose your parents. The best way is to is to — they and they certainly spend more time my parents spend more time talking to you than they do to me. — But they're genuinely amazing. I'll give my two cents because I'm I obviously didn't grow up with them. And you were saying, you know, Rishi, as someone who looks like me, you became PM. I would say so much of that is down to them because they raised all three of you by the way with incredible values and you should talk about what those values are but incredible values and they are the living embodiment of those values and um and so I um I feel very lucky that my children on the one hand of course I'm so proud of my parents and everything that they stand for not achieved but what they stand for kill that's really important but they have another set of grandparents and I got to know a lot more about your parents kind of journey when I think there was that book that came out on you by Michael Ashcraftoft I can't remember the name when you were chancellor um and so I was didn't have time so I was doing some of the digging into their journeys and it's incredible — where are they now what do they do — they still live in Southampton where I was born. They are retired. Um they're spending time with their well they keep busy but they spend time with their grandkids when they can. They just um they just our two girls actually were in uh in Bangalore — in Bangalore this week with our mom and dad for halfterm and then they just got back but my parents came to surprise them at the airport so they've been having a nice time the four of them over the weekend. No. So they still live in the town where I was born and grew up. My uh dad was a GP, — family doctor. My mom was a pharmacist you knowve I've spoken about this and you know they were very much my inspiration for wanting to go into politics. You might think that's a bit odd given that they uh they're medical, but I worked for them and I worked mainly for my mom in the shop in the back. And so I'd be doing making up all the medicines — and things. I' I'd do all the accounts as well and the bookkeeping and that got me into business side of things. But — and then I would deliver the medicines. So I'd be on my bike and then in the evenings you'd go around and then and drop them off for the patients that couldn't come in and pick them up. And then later, you know, I learned to drive. I did it that way. But the I was really struck because they've been doing the same thing in the same place 30 years and the surgery and the pharmacy were nearby each other. So they had lots of similar patients overlapping and I would I was struck because you'd go to the door and you'd pan the thing and they'd said, "Oh, are you Mrs. Sunnak's son or you Dr. Sununnak's son? " I'd say yes. And then they would proceed to tell me some lovely story about my mom and dad. They say, "Oh," and it would invariably be something that either or both of them had done to them or their parents or their grandparents or their kids. And I you just got this repeatedly. And the same thing would happen if we were out of the weekend of shopping. And uh and and I came to realize that it was possible for just one person or two people as individuals to have this quite strong impact in their community in a way that you could touch. so many people's lives and make a difference to them and I thought that was inspiring and so that was my motivation for becoming a politician because in the UK our districts our constituencies are small — and it's very retail right so you are and you know even when you're prime minister you're still doing that you're conducting they're still called they're called surgeries you know you have a surgery as an MP people come and see you their problems you help them — and you're out in embedded in your local community and I get a lot of fulfillment from that and actually one of the things having left Downing Street that I get to do more of is that aspect of the job having stayed as an M. — That's in North Yorkshire. That's why our home is in — So — I Googled it. It looks really pretty. — It's very visit. It's very green. Yeah, you should. You'd like it. — actually Kieran also sadly John passed away but that was on their list cuz it's depending on which train you take. It's — on the way up to Scotland. Yeah, — it's um yeah, it's a fiercely independent people in Yorkshire and it's uh but it's stunning rural England. Um I represent more sheep than people. Um so I've become very familiar with all things farming related and there's two national parks and it's beautiful. Um but yeah, so that's the thing I got from them was you just through working with them and I'm seeing how they made a difference. That was my inspiration because obviously I disappointed them by not becoming a
Segment 5 (20:00 - 25:00)
doctor. But uh — I think you did fine. I It's okay. Uh it's okay. — It's always time now. — It worked out okay. — Yeah. But I — But it was a definite adjustment for them. — Yeah. Well, cuz I was studying economics and philosophy and they didn't — and they're like they understand science. — Yeah. We kind of — they understand law. — They just Yeah. Cuz they thought I might become a lawyer. So they understood that. Even those days they were kind of like what degree what subject you're studying? What degree does that mean? What job does that mean? Right? It was and I had to explain it's okay. It's a good degree. It's good A levels. I'll be able to get a job um and it would be fine. But that the other thing with them and that's actually in spite of the — superficial differences between our families, — the thing that united them was, you know, for my parents it was all about education. — Right. So for them, you know, they worked and they worked and they did extra jobs and everything else and they worked seven days a week and all of that was so that we could go to great schools because their view was that they just threw everything into that, sacrificed everything for that. — It's actually a very Indian thing. No, — it's a very it's a very thing that it's a very Indian thing. — I mean, you know, my parents did exactly that, right? And I think the Indian community as a whole, we value education — as the passport, as a way for a better — a better life, right? — But it was I was really lucky because I went to great schools uh as a result of that and we I had help along the way as did my brother and sister. But it was um you know that was kind of drilled into us that this is important. Do you think it still works though? — If you were to argue that the Indian education system which is very — marks dependent and rank dependent — is teaching us to be conformist in a world that is no longer rewarding conformity. So first of all I mean go on you I can imagine we'll have I so I studed in there till I was 18 then I and then I the truth is Nicl at 16 you know both my parents are engineers um even in 96 I knew at 16 I knew that they were special and amazing and and I thought a lot of it was down to them being engineers, right? far from the point, but I knew I didn't want to be an engineer. — And so then, well, what are my options? I didn't want to be a doctor. And so I knew I wanted to read and write and storytell. And I loved history, but I also loved um the social sciences, economics. And so I ended up going to the US and I have a liberal arts degree. Um but I think the Indian education system from when I know it is a numbers game and it you know because the it it puts you on a path where you end up if you know what you're doing it's great but if you don't know what you want to do I'm not so sure that works but I think it's changing and now with things like technology I think we're able to be more open-minded about what that education system should be. — But Nichl to your point, I don't it's not just India because of AI. — Every country is having to think about its education system and reimagine it for this world. What — what is worth studying? What are the right skills — to teach young people? And we think about it, we have two daughters who are about to grow up into this world. And I think the one thing we know is it's actually very hard to say with certainty. And you know, I'm lucky to spend time with the people developing this technology, people thinking about it. I think there's just an incredible amount of uncertainty about exactly how this is all going to work out. — Would you send your daughters to an engineering college today? I — I think, you know, would I send them to Yeah. I mean, look, I they're so young if that's what they were passionate about. Um, and look, I'm not as familiar with Indian education system versus UK or US. — And that's the point I was trying to make. Like I thought if you're a fairly good student, you have to be a do a doctor and engineer. Yeah. And I didn't want to be either of those. Right. — But we're not quite at the there's they're not old enough yet where I'm sitting there going, if they were engineers, well, should they do more um electrical engineering because hardware is more important than um, you know, computer science or something. I, you know, I'm not at that level with them. And no, neither of us are. But I think what one things some things that are starting to become clearer about this AI world is you can almost break down I think about
Segment 6 (25:00 - 30:00)
it. You can break down most jobs into a set of tasks, right? Like all of our jobs are a set of tasks and we've talked about this, right? and there's bits that AI is clearly going to be very good at and then there's bits that it probably won't be and you just need to make sure that your education is not so narrow that it gives you the breadth these what these horizontal skills and it's things like critical thinking it's kind of knowing what question to ask the model will always have more knowledge than you but you need to know how to get the best out of it and that comes from critical thinking, reasoning, judgment, being able to evaluate the answer that comes back and then go back. I that is a set of skill. I mean liberal arts education in the US is one that focuses on that type of horizontal thinking. So I would I that to me I think is as our kids are thinking whether it's engineering or economics or whatever having some breath that allows you to do that because just developing deep knowledge about one thing which you do need in life you need to I'm a big believer you need to become a subject expert and go deep but from a skills capability you just need to have that breadth and I think the other thing is and actually we this is when we were at Stanford together we had this remember I I probably made the mist in what in hindsight made a mistake, right? And you told me this at the time. — Yeah. — About, you know, when we were doing all the class selection. — Yes. — Right. And I at that age, you're in your 20ies, — I was drawn more to the harder — things that I a I enjoyed and I was investing, extra finance, that type of thing, right? And I liked those classes and I thought they were going to be very relevant to me. — And you were right. and you were pushing me and you did more of the things like interpersonal dynamics, organizational behavior, understanding, humans and behavior and understanding — uh skills and peopleentric — focus essentially. So, so I think Stanford's great because they don't allow you to major as such. Like you don't do a finance, MBA or a marketing. — Um, and so you invariably have to take a broad mix. But I think we came because of our relationship, we were able to get each other to try the other thing, right? — Um, — and if I look back, I mean, you were right on that. And the thing is you at that age, I think you probably undervalue how important those things are. And then the thing is in if you want to end up in life in a leadership position then those things are more valuable right actually you will always be able to learn how to do the finance and the accounting and ways to do it and actually the AI will be able to do it for you but — you know figuring you know why something didn't work — is because of the is it the people aspect of it is how you set up your the team why is that person not motivated — what's your approach to risk — it won't be because of like someone didn't get the DCF right like or whatever it is and the same. Yeah. And that's why with our kids as again when they're thinking about all those things, it's where do you whether it's at undergrad, grad or in the in life, where do you pick up that set of skills and actually educational institutions are the right place to do it and I remember you made this point to me because I you know I wasn't British and reserved and you were more comfortable being — vulnerable. Yeah. But emotionally vulnerable with other people and that is the place to do it because if you're trying to understand well how do you give feedback which is a critical if you're trying to build a team run a team in any context like being able to give feedback and manage people is so critical and actually trying to figure that out in a lowrisk envir trusted environment at say business school is much better than trying to figure it out on the job you know when you're That's what you're doing with the foundry in a way, right? You're saying, "Guys and gals, come together — and build something you're passionate about, — but do that in this intense way. " And frankly, it is more lowrisk than if they had to go out in the real world and do it themselves. Um, because I think everything comes down to people in the end, right? Um so — yeah so understanding people understand at a in a better way which uh which again is so those are the I think what I'd say you know kids is an engineer this but it's these other things I'd want to make sure one way or another from school from college from whatever else they're building those skill sets uh because I think those whatever happens with AI those will be more and more valuable — I always say to um Rishi I'm so intrigued and frankly more convinced uh than ever that in the world of AI let's figure out let's lean into being more human and what does it mean
Segment 7 (30:00 - 35:00)
to be more human we can have a conversation around that um but I think to me those are qualities — I'll become more important less not less — compassion and intuition and things like that now you can tell me whether AI can learn all of that maybe in time AGI etc that let's lean into those human skills um and those are not and I think schools are changing schools because I now have been um in one shape or form I have been a part of the Indian education system the US education system and the British — through the kids yeah and um in all of these places I see it is changing Nikl it was not it's not like when I was growing up right um — but I mean — but is it changing fast enough that's a question — I think that is the key right and it's and I think because probably because same with you like we're closer to the — technology development like so we see what's happening there and the government always moves slower than that even at the best of times and changing whole systems like an education system takes time but my general — and I was saying this uh you know last week at the AI summit right that What political leaders can't afford to do is treat AI like tomorrow's problem. It is an action this day issue. And and there probably is not much. I mean, you don't I don't think you see a huge amount of debate and discussion about changing the education system. Um which then — in the way we're saying being a generalist is better than being an expert. — Yeah. I mean so interesting because I would think that you would say no you need to build deep skills in a couple — I think you so I think this is yeah well we might not say the same thing I don't know I — and I would use a different word for generalist I say bre — I think that I think these set of what they're horizontal skills — you need those which are not domain specific right the critical reasoning thinking judgment or those human centric sills that we just talked about empathy, feedback, dispute regul um yeah exactly dispute negotiation all those humanentric skills — and a set of cognitive but horizontal cognitive skills like critical reasoning I so that's where you need what I call horizontal skills which aren't domain specific — but I am I don't think it's old-fashioned but I still think you if you want to do something well you have to have deep knowledge of — master it and and you know you want to do something well you stand up you need to commit time and effort to being someone who is stands out on it now look that is — easier now well sorry that what's easier now is for many more people to reach a high knowledge level because of AI right so it's harder to stand out for that but you can't not have that that's my view now that might be a bit of an oldfashioned view but I tend to think If you're talking to someone who's pitching you for one of your companies, right, and in this foundry and they'd say, "Okay, they've got an idea for a confectionary business. " — If they don't know the confectionary market in India inside out, — I think it would be I mean, I don't know. I mean, I would find that odd, right? I would expect them to know more about the confectionary market than anyone else that I speak. My thing is you only build deep knowledge in something I think if you're passionate about it. M — and so when I think of that in the context of entrepreneurship — take the confectionary business this person probably for a number of reasons deeply cares about that space and that's when innovation happens I think right so deep knowledge combined with passion — combined with this breath of skills that we've talked about — is is I think an incredibly interesting — but to your point and I this is on college, right? So if if one of our kids was doing a degree or they're choosing a degree and whatever it is, engineering, English, economics, if all they did for the 3, four years was just study that subject without building those broad capabilities, — then that would be I think a problem, right? They would not be set up to succeed in this world. Now I you can build those capabilities through the subject, you can do it as a standalone class, but if all you did is just study the pure subject and you're the expert on this industrial economics over here and that macroeconomics over there and you know Dario talking about corno equilibriums
Segment 8 (35:00 - 40:00)
took me back to my industrial economics classes. Um but it's like that is not sufficient like that is absolutely not sufficient if you haven't left at the same time with that — I think that back to what makes you more us more human. — Are you guys like this at home? — Are we — What does like this mean? — Why is the this — again? Again because we're on camera. — What's the this? — Having interesting conversations. Do you mean — you finish each other's lines off? — Oh, — I think we are. I really do. — But underneath you don't agree. Not always. — We Oh, we've — not always. — Oh, yeah. — Well, good uh good way to put it. So, I think our end our destination is always the same — which is — well so — depends on the situation. — Yes. Like we end up coming arriving at the same decision say — for the most part. part or at least in all the big stuff. No. — Yeah. — But I think our journeys — we don't start Yeah. And we don't start from We don't often start I think we probably rarely start from the same place. — Oh, I was just going to say our approaches are quite different. — Yeah. — Exactly. — Right. So, for example, if there's a something to do with our children, we'll kind of know what how we know in fact what the answer is. — Oh, we know what we're solving for. — That's right. But then I will come at it. The way you will come at it and the way I will come at it. — Exact will be. Yeah. Approach, right? Starting point will be different. — How is it different? — You go and then I'll go. — Uh well I look I will probably come at it from a more analytical more practical — processoriented structured. — Even in this interview he's giving me the evil eye when I'm like a bit all over the place and he's like no that wasn't the question. — I didn't catch it. I know that you've a lie. — Can you show us? — No, I — I believe a lie. — I didn't think I was doing that. Only — and then you will come at it. — I will come at it with heart. — Mhm. — With passion like quite risktaking — and more intuitive — and Yeah. heart, intuitive — and less structured. — And much less structured — and less practical. Yeah. and I will be the so although we're solving for the same thing you know what's best for our kid or what should we do in X or whatever it is — I mean let's talk about something right like going into politics you didn't grow up thinking you would want to go into politics but when he first talked to me about it I'm like great we you know you can make a real impact and solve all these challenges and Rishi just has a more structured approach to that um and I thought that was really — but we on all those things. So we'll So anyway, we talk about so we talk when your point is so we talk a lot and then the you know then it will probably at some point you know we're better at now — are you saying it up the hand gesture no it might do a bit of that right if it's particularly big thing and we've come at it differently then there'll be a bit of that go away then we'll come back at it and and on as you say on all the big things we and we end up being very — happy I think having been through the process and we have enough trust now I mean you know how long we've been married 50 60 whatever years um we have enough trust that the process is even if it's a bit fraugh during — we trust the process right pro and we trust each other yeah no — so I think it's — we know that the other person genuinely believes in the same things — which are — so to me when I say that I think values right and I think those values we share so many which are around integrity working hard being curious about the world around you um and having compassion I think — and respecting everybody great respect and compassion. Yeah. — Where did the values come from? — I think from our parents. — Parents. Yeah. — And that was the bit there as a superficial differences — but I remember the when they met that uh — well your parents home or you think? — Yeah they uh where you so our parents first met which I was stressed about because — I was not nervous — but it was fine. She left me to deal with it. And it was stressful because they weren't very I mean I was I she knew both sets. I knew both sets but you know they when they met and they came
Segment 9 (40:00 - 45:00)
her parents came with her uncle to my um to my parents house in Southampton — and I was there my brother was there — and it I mean it was genuinely stressful because they were so different — on the surface — but it ended up being um — really positive because and that was the thing that your parents had said to me. They said we were apprehensive because we just didn't know whether they would have the same values to us cuz obviously — they're different — different um but actually — how what the things life the things that they value the things that are important to them how they've raised you being in your house being one of them are values more nurtured than nature you were not born with them — are values more nurtured than nature — I mean yeah I think they are. I mean, I say that um — Yeah, I think they are. Um — Yeah. so. — I was talking to my therapist. I was speaking with my therapist recently. — I'm going to — Is that okay? I assuming this is not for display. So, yeah, it's not good cuz I'm not get stuck in. Right. — She is so ridiculous. — That I didn't want to polite and whatnot. He does this in every anytime there is there's anything we've done together. Oh, that's it. We had this we um had a great meeting with another international leader and his spouse and uh they had catered afternoon tea which was very nice and you know we were all rightly you know you meet them for the first time you're trying to make sense of each other making sure that they're comfortable but they're all these cakes and then halfway through it she's like well I'm going to start on the cakes and it actually was great because no one else was touching any of the food. It was a genuine kind of we're looking for an icebreaker and Rishi just went straight in for the food. So, um, how was the journey Rishi from going from being a person who was at Goldman Sachs to becoming the prime minister of UK? I know it's a big question. — Yeah. Um well I think the first thing to say it was the journey that I had imagined — even if it happened far faster than I would have imagined because I you know I'm one of these people who thinks if you want to go into politics you are far better off having done something first. That's my view. uh and I think that because a you bring a set of skills and experience about something else into the political arena which is just a good thing [snorts] and you have that knowledge which you can contribute but also from a — and an understanding of the real world. — Yeah. This Yeah. I think actually you're saying what I think I'm about to say which is Oh, sorry. — No, no. I think it's the same — completing each other's sentences. No, which is it is a slightly different mindset to how you approach things because if you spent your entire life in politics, you tend to see everything with a political lens. You see the politics in every situation or every problem. Whereas if you've done something else first and you've just had a normal experience, business, teaching, medicine, whatever it is, armed forces, you come into politics, you don't see the life through a political prism. And I think that is better. So for those reasons I think doing something else first is the right way to do it. Certainly that's what I wanted to do. So in that sense the career path was one that I had broadly thought about and obviously it happened a lot quicker and I think the other thing which was important to me which we talked about a lot at Stanford was — I financial independence and financial security was important to me as a precondition — to going into politics afford that. Sorry. — Politics gives you financial security as well, right? — Uh I mean why do you say that? — Aren't British politicians paid well? — They are paid well by average wage standards. So you know there's a body that sets politicians wages relative to a set of professional classes. So in the if you look at what the average person in the UK owns, politicians are paid considerably more than that. But for the financial security that I wanted, right? Everyone has their own view, right? — I hear you. For some going to Stanford and probably not from that benchmark. — Yeah. And so for so there was a degree of financial security that I wanted which was not just to be able to live my life but to make sure my family were
Segment 10 (45:00 - 50:00)
okay that our kids would be able to have flexibility that the person that I met would be able to have flexibility. Obviously, I met Ox, but so I kind of came into it wanting, you know, wanting to be able to give my kids, my family a the choice actually to not have to maybe do what I did. I was lucky. I liked something. I was passionate about something to your point. I happen to be passionate about something which is also well rewarded financially. But it was very important to me to have that financial independence. bringing this other set of experience and skills into politics and government was important. So you know in that sense the the journey happened you know as I would have wanted it to. I think what was different about it was the speed — right — and uh the speed in which it happened if I look back and I kind of think you know what do I think differently about the world now than I used to at the start of that journey. You know, I I used to think speed was like — Yeah. You know, the most important thing — and I've come to appreciate that patience is almost a bigger competitive advantage. And I think when you're that age, nil, I'm sure you'll resonate with — No, now I would say — but I think when you're in your 20s and you're I think you're — you're constantly thinking about I've got to get to this point, the next thing. And you know the list, you know, 30 under 30, young rising stars, 40 under 40 list, and you are focused on getting to the next thing. And if I don't do this by this point, then the window is gone. And I was very much — I'm not going to be successful. Um and I think that given and this might be a strange thing for someone who's had micropath to say right you end up being prime youngest prime minister in 200 years and in one sense that's incredible but in another sense as I say patience is its own competitive advantage because you know there is some times when actually it's worse to arrive too early than it is to arrive too late to something — and it's very much not the view of kind of people on entrepreneurs building companies. But certainly from my experience, there's some things that you you reach the position, but you then want to be able to be at your best when you have that position or that role, whatever it might be. And sometimes that comes with experience and making sure that you have the experience and the judgment to make good decisions when you're in that role. — Right. Is it also rate of growth that keeps you happy? — For me, yes. So now what happens after having — after you've done this thing? Yeah. So — we've had lots of incredibly interesting discussions. I think probably the slightly discomforting thing for me which actually has helped me get more comfortable with is for the first time in my life — I'm I don't you know I don't know what the next to work toward specific thing — will the high ever be the same if — I mean you were at the pinnacle of validation and importance in society — I don't think any amount of money will get you there. — So what is the high that makes you feel like relatively higher than the previous high? — I so cool. — So for me and I think the same for you or you're seeing that more now having this somewhat of a blank canvas is exciting. — Yeah. — Because I love trying out different things. I love you know we're talking earlier about risk takingaking etc. not taking risk for the sake of a risk but having a blank canvas or some people might say starting over again right um that's quite exciting — because also we have had both of us what feels like the because we've been together for now 20 years these incredibly meaningful um just incredibly experiences if so we we're we have a blank canvas but I would like to think we have wisdom with it and we have we're lucky we are able to do things that interest us that fuel our passions
Segment 11 (50:00 - 55:00)
um so I would say that's the first thing the I don't know if that's a high or not but it's exciting to have that blank canvas — and we're starting to lay color on it in our own way — um in ways that are deeply meaningful to us. So, not just doing it to tick a box, right? Um not doing it because we have to get to the next milestone. We don't even know what the next milestone is. Um it's liberating. — Yeah, I think that's it. It is in a way liberating. So, I'm 45. — We're 45. um you know, God, you know, God willing, I've got more both of we've got more working years ahead of us than I've got behind us. — Mhm. — Right. And that when you think of it like that, I can't I can't um live daytoday thinking that the most important thing I've done has already happened and nothing else I do in life will give me the same fulfillment or purpose. high is the word you use. I a I don't believe that and it would be a hard way to live if if you did. And the liberating thing is actually I said it's for someone who's always been on this you know track and it's like okay I need to get into this university and then that degree and then that internship and that job and you know that MP and or that business school and that MP and then this get into the cabinet and that job etc. I like this is this blank canvas thing is entrepreneurial, right? And there's a you know that better than most, right? There's a fulfillment that comes from building something with a blank starting with a blank canvas as a said. So that's what we're now doing and as you said, it's exciting because you get to start this second chapter, second half of your professional life with all these incredible experiences and skills that you've built up. — Yeah. — Which you didn't have on that journey. That's what I was saying before. Whereas before it was like rush rush rush. — It was it felt I'm not putting words in your mouth but it I think when you're 18 22 starting your first job etc. — I think you it can sometimes feel theoretical where you know in your head oh I have to do this job this degree to get this job to get to this place. Whereas now we don't just rely on kind of established frameworks. We're able to deep dive into what I will call wisdom. Right? We are able to build on those incredible frameworks which are given to you by education, your values, your your career um uh experiences, your professional experiences, but also just having had the vast range of meaningful experiences and you're only 45. — Yeah. And learning and you learn from them, right? all the failures you've had, all the things that you've got wrong and reflected on and right and understanding what you're good at and why you get them right. I look I have to believe that I roughly, you know, worked 20 something years, will have 20 something years left to work. I'm should be far better set up for success over this next 20 than I was over the last 20. — But it depends on how you define success, I guess. — Yes. Yeah. But if you're defining success by one particular job or position then maybe but I don't think either of us think about success like that. So that maybe is — this is very personal to me. A lot of people like last night a bunch of kids were asking me why don't you become a politician? — Yeah. — And I've never thought of it. I don't have any plan or any inclination whatsoever. But I really want to know how does it feel like to go from working in a corporation to becoming the prime minister? — How does the attention feel? How does — the criticism feel? How does the — responsibility feel? — Responsibility. Yeah. — Yeah. So you know for someone who's entering into politics you know I like I get asked similar question you know for young people who are thinking about politics you know I say to them there's you need to be resilient patient and you need to be motivated by public service more than ambition — at some level. So those are the I think the things that you need to make sure that you have. — What's under that though? The day you figured you're becoming prime minister. Did you sit at home and you're like this happened? — I didn't have time. Nichol I Yeah.
Segment 12 (55:00 - 60:00)
— Right. It has to be a big thing, right? — Yeah. I you know what it it for me the circumstances in which I became prime minister, it was so sudden. I didn't have time to do much of that. I We were in different places that weekend for — Yeah. I was in Yorkshire and you were — I was in London. I was one minute I was with our two kids at TGI Fridays in bowling. I just lost a quite bruising leadership election to Liz Trust and I was emotionally starting to look forward to this next chapter of my life, spending time with the kids, thinking about what we were going to do next. Uh and so I physically and emotionally was in a completely different place and then all of a sudden this thing happened that I was not uh prepared — thinking actively about — actively uh emotionally or practically and it happened just so quickly and so you didn't have time and then I you know it was a battlefield promotion right and there was — you know huge number of things that I had to deal with immediately — so it didn't I didn't really get to have — I think We had one call with your parents. — Yeah. — Cuz it was so it was Rishi's mother's 70th birthday that day. It was our youngest daughter's 10th birthday and it was also Diwali — it was happening. Yeah. — Yeah. And so we had one phone call with your parents — and that was it. It actually I it first the moment it kind of first properly hit me because the first few days there was so much to do. It was I forget whether it was 5 days, four days, a week later there was a because I got became prime minister around Dvali and so there was a Downing Street Dvali reception uh a few days after I became prime minister and it was at that moment I was you know I — doing that and obviously — in particular the significance of being first British Asian, first Hindu prime minister of the UK, it being Dvali, everyone there was very aware of that and — and obviously expressing how much it meant to them and that's the moment where it kind of did hit me for a second that aspect of it um was obviously uh it was very nice — but to your point it was an extra also an extra responsibility I felt in a positive way you obviously have a responsibility to do a good job in general but you know I wanted to also make sure I did an extra good job because I was the first of and repres representing a lot of hopes and dreams of a community that I wanted to make sure that I could make them proud as well. — It's also crazy because the British ruled India up until 1947 and you know in a world where we still speak about things like racism. Is there a line like while you speak to me and I watched a bunch of interviews almost everything I think you guys have done in the recent past — but you're very Indian in a way where you took oath on the Gita you have Diwali parties you speak about her parents a lot — is there a line where you could become too Indian in a way that while you're actively in politics in England it could become a problem — it never did — well whether it was going to or not for me it was non-negotiable and I wasn't going to change who I was to make that work. So even if someone had come to me and said you need to be a bit less Indian or you know not talk about this or do that I just wouldn't have I'm you know we talked about it. I made that commitment to myself. I wasn't going to change who I was for uh for that — to get ahead in this. — Yeah. And if it and I was comfortable with if it was going to be a problem then it was so be it right. like I you know it just it was never that was how I was raised, right? That's who I am. I'm not I wasn't going to run away from it um just because I have that job. Um and I also think actually it's a it was a moment that was remarked on obviously in the UK when it happened, but not so much. So, it's not like it really dominated the conversations and that's all everyone was talking about and people had plenty of issues with me as prime minister. That was not really the reason that, you know, if someone was going to be upset with me, it wasn't going to be — Why not? Why didn't it become a bigger deal? — But I think it I think it's Well, probably because the because of the country, right, and how it's, you know, — could never happen in the US, for example. But wait, they had a — Every country has a different Yeah, but it was a big deal when it happened more so than it probably was with me. And I think it just all countries have their own relationship with these types of topics and the UK
Segment 13 (60:00 - 65:00)
has come a long way and that's why I think it's a good thing that it wasn't a big deal. It was a kind of oh okay and then we move on and they'll be upset with me about this or that but then not you know I didn't like what you said here or what you did there but not because you know you Dvali di outside the door — even like lighting the outside street — temple last weekend or something you — I know how it felt so meaningful to us it was so meaningful to our communities but we didn't even second guess it because it felt so natural and no made us feel like we should second guess it if that makes sense right like we didn't feel uncomfortable at all — and I think that's the beauty of the UK is your ability to — genuinely believe in what you do — it was a very nice moment because when you become prime minister you have you have to go see the monarch who was the king who recently become king and um he infor formally invites you to form a government, right? That's how the process works. And so I go along to see him before I go to Downing Street. And um you it was a and that was a special moment. and you know he's head of the church of England as well as uh being the king and the monarch and head of state but has always been someone who's talked about being a defender of faith and not just the faith — in general but the and here I was first British Asian you know Hindu prime minister of the UK but the nice thing was you know we had tea in the you know tea in the afternoon but because it was Dvali and he's someone who's always been very engaged and supportive of the British Asian community in the UK and he there were Dvali mitai so it was not a kind of tea and scon you know tea and um and mitai that he'd organized which was a really lovely — you kind of relatively unremarked moment uh and I just to me I thought that was a — how are they — the monarchies — uh well you know we have this um — I've met them a few times I'm in that British Asian trust. And yeah, I also have a colleague of mine who used to be the ex-chief of staff for uh Prince Charles, — King Charles. — Yeah. So, I met him a few times, but in the very shake hand, hi, how are you? That kind of way. But how are they? — They're wonderfully warm people. — Yes. I mean, look, we, you know, as prime minister, you see the king or previously queen every week for what's called an audience. I watched this in the Winston Churchill documentary I think. — Oh okay. Yeah the meetings. Yeah. — Yeah. So you have these meetings weekly which um and the and then the other thing that is a cast iron rule of you know UK government and politicians is that you don't ever talk about the royal family or your dialogue with them. But other than to say as a said as you can see very warm and um very welcoming people who are committed to service — service. Yeah. Uh and but particularly as I said with King Charles as you saw pre the British Asian Trust it's something that he supported for — for a long time years and years. — I'm not going to ask you anything controversial but the thing that did impress me about Prince Charles is — King Charles is — he was into the climate thing — way — 20 30 years before other people were into it. — Yeah. — Which I thought was — very forwardlooking. — Yeah. — Yeah. He's a huge I think like he really is a naturalist in so many ways I think. — Yeah. No, he's very passionate about that and the natural environment and — um is very knowledgeable about it as well. — Okay. Tell me more about how it felt after. Okay. The first day you felt like you didn't have time to react. — Yeah. — Because you were in whatever tumultuous busy crazy madness warrior zone. But what happens three months later, six months later? At some point you take cognizance of it, right? — Like you wake up every day and suddenly you have like all the security and this and that. — I've been to 10 Downing Street. Your house changes significantly overnight. Who did you visit? I mean, which prime minister? — I think it was Boris. Yeah, — it was Boris at the time. — But it has beautiful art in that. I was so impressed. Someone took me for a tour. — Yeah. No, it's So, we were fortunate in one sense because we'd already been living in Downing Street. Um, not everyone knows, but there are two apartments flats in Downing Street. — One for the prime minister and one for the chancellor. — So, you know, for us and for our kids, we were used to — it was a familiar space. — So, so that the very physical and practical aspect of having security or living in this building with everything that came along with that was something that we
Segment 14 (65:00 - 70:00)
were we were used to and our kids were used to. And we made the decision not to change uh flats — when I went from becoming chancellor to becoming prime minister. Historically you would move um and we made a decision not to do that. We stayed in the same — we were staying stayed in the same place precisely for our kids. So they had that and for us we had the familiarity uh with it. Um and actually it's a it's a funny but lovely environment for the kids. Our younger daughter loves history, — so she would love being in this uh building with all to your point all the history and the art and she gave the best tour by the time we left give the best tour of Downing Street. Uh and then there are all the incredible staff that live and work there for decades even a lot — and they spoil the kids, right? So the kids would go to their security room and get suites and have fun looking at all the security cameras and kind of spotting what was going on. So it was like home away from home. — It's you know they so they you felt very welcome. Obviously it's a bit odd. Uh but you know it's a bit strange when you know the deliveroo or you know Uber Eatats person shows up at the back back. Yeah. Exactly. It gate. — Is it mu in London? — Uh — I don't think so. — Don't think so. No. Um but so there's a you know the kids love it. actually the lovely lady who ran the cafeteria in Downing Street would always spoil our kids with uh with kind of bacon sandwiches in the mornings on their way to school and things like that. So there are these all and we got a we got our dog Nova while we were in Downing Street and so she came there as a puppy so she also got spoiled by hundreds of people. Um so you know that very kind of nice aspect you kind of growing up in this community — and living in — living in it has its downsides obviously you the my our flat door you know Downing Street is very much smaller than people realize it's very kind of higgly piggly offices and flat so you'd open our front door to our flat — and the downing street policy unit breakout area is literally you open the door and there's people sitting there having a meeting — quite a few tantrums yeah like you know like the kids are screaming on your way like good morning and — while they're trying to figure something out. So, you know, those are some kind of dayto-day aspects of it um that you know you get that you get used to. But for us, I said the transition was we had got used to a lot of that uh in any case. — Who was the smartest person you think you met while you were in there? — Smartest — both of you. And what did you take away? I find this very attractive that you get to meet — so many interesting different types of people. — Yeah. I would just say like really smart people or really accomplished people which is not necessarily the same as being smart. — Yeah. — But really successful people. — Well, we have to think about that. But I can I just talk about the smart you say smart but I'll give you probably an unorthodox answer. Um so I you know we've talked a lot about the power of education to transform people's lives and so when um Rishi became PM I thought about well what can I do in my own small way to add some value because unlike the US — um the UK doesn't have a formal role for the spouse right — um and so but I also knew that um I would uh or I wanted to in some small way have some impact in my own way and so I started this program called lessons at 10. So every Friday we got kids in from across the country to come in and be inspired. I mean the theme was be inspired, be inspired by the building, be inspired by leadership, be inspired to dream. Um and then every week we had a different theme. So you might love history. I might love rugby. Rishi might love finance, whatever. Um cooking, I mean across the range. So don't feel like there's only one thing for you. There's just go out and explore and you might just find that thing that gets you out of bed. And I every week, Nikil, I met young people who didn't always in fact a lot of the time didn't come with huge kind of advantages in life, but they were so inspiring to me and I think um thank you. I think that is a memory that will stay with me forever. So it wasn't just one famous person, right? It wasn't one famous name, but it was young people, you know, they with their idealism. I think that was really quite interesting and exciting. I don't know what you think. — Green bottle. — Thank you. — Yeah. I don't I think there's not one.
Segment 15 (70:00 - 75:00)
— Can I serve you? — Oh, you and I will help myself, please. — Yeah. I don't want to. Are you having [clears throat] — There you go. I'll let you Um yeah, I don't think there's — I think there's some special moments. I mean there were lots of special moments. — Thinking like the coronation was really special — in terms of individuals for but you Nichol's asking about the smarts. I mean look there's people are smart in so many different ways. We're not one person. There's all — all dominant knowledge. But look, we're living in this era of AI. — And you know, I was struck — spending time with the people developing that technology, — right? And you know them, you've interviewed them, you've met them. But — you know, Sam, Dario, and Demis, who's obviously a Brit came to talk to me about this very early on in my premiership. — And you interviewed Elon. — I interviewed Elon as well around our AI summit. — You looked like you were really having fun. — Yeah, I was. Um Yeah, I mean I was Yes, I was. Yeah, thank you. Um — that was the first AI safety summit. Yeah, that was on the AI the evening of the AI summit. — Mhm. — Um, you know, so we had, you know, we it was a Yeah, it was nice obviously being in India this recently for this AI summit here when we started that summit in Bletchley Park. I didn't imagine that [clears throat] — it would end up not end up but progressed to have this incredible event here in India. Um, — and it's nice to have created this series and it's been to South Korea, it's been to Paris, India and it will keep going. How was it this year the summit? — It was great. — I It was I think it kind of testament to the prime minister's leadership that he brought so many of the leading businesses and — thank you — policy makers together. But I think it was for me what stood out was just the energy and optimism — of all Indian entrepreneurs and people involved in this. It's a it was you know really striking just being in the hall talking to people such optimism about this which is not what you find everywhere particularly in the west where there is more anxiety about AI in India there's — optimism and excitement and trust and that is a an advantage then you also saw the — he's incredibly impressive isn't he the prime minister — yes yeah he's very impressive I mean look I used to you know talk to him about this when we were when I was in office and you know he's been talking about the India stack for an office. — Do you speak in Hindi or English? English. My Hindi is not good enough to do work. we're not trusted to do any serious work with um sadly uh but no he's someone who's understood the importance of technology the importance of the tech stack and then you see the announcement from serv which was superb I mean DPI you know and UPI and now these uh — Aish man health accounts you put all that together the ability to deploy AI applications to over a billion people Mhm. — is uh is again distinctive advantage for India. So you know I all the ingredients are there. — Do you believe sovereign AI has a use case — sovereign AI — like what server was trying to build? Yeah, I so my approach to sovereignty and AI is and I've been thinking about this a lot. I think in sovereignty and technology in general is I you know my advice to political leaders or what I would do if I was in office is I think you need to do three things. The first is you need as a country to figure out where you can ideally control a part of a critical technology supply chain. Right? So I think it's not realistic for most countries to think they can completely insource an end-to-end supply chain. Certainly for a country like the UK for example. — What do you suspect is that opportunity for India? Look what people here will know better than me but it's trying to identify — you mean hardware supply chain — it but it could be a hardware capability software physical it could be something it can be quite broadly defined — but something that I said very unlikely that you can end to end insource a supply chain but think about ASML that company critical — component of the semi-upp supply chain. So if you're the Netherlands, right, that's good for you, right, to have in a world where hard power matters, the world is more
Segment 16 (75:00 - 80:00)
fragmented, the geopolitical environment is more competitive. I think to protect yourself, you need to have an ASML strategy. So figure out in the technologies of the future where can you develop a capability that the world will need. So that's kind of that's point one. The second point and where surviv comes into it is you have to diversify your risk and take a portfolio approach right so there will be some and what does that mean it means not having vendor lockin right making sure you're building applications and systems that are not relying on a single provider and look for some things you want a frontier US model to have data sovereignty and compute and being provided domestically you don't need that for everything but what you need to do is think about your portfolio know figure out where you can dial some things up and dial some things down. Where can you use open source? Where can you rely on server? Where is it fine to pull something off the shelf from another country that you can switch in and out? So that's where sroom comes in is building that portfolio approach. And then the third thing is partnerships and actually look yes the world is more contested but partnerships matter trust matters and there will be some things that you can work with other countries on to mean that — you don't have to you can't do everything yourself but you have enough trusted relationships that you can rely on them and again you wouldn't comp fully rely on them but I said these are these three components if you do all three of those you're giving yourself as much sovereignty as possible what does That mean sovereignty? What it means is you know an ability to deploy the technology confidently in your own country according to your values, your laws, your priorities. — But you say deploy and not develop. — Oh, sorry. In order to deploy it in accordance with your and have reliable trusted access to being able to deploy it, which is why you need that portfolio approach and actually having some whether you're relying on open source or homegrown models all plays into a part of that. Um, — but in a way you're saying it's better for a country to rely on homegrown or open source rather than relying on American or Chinese. — I don't think you can be that binary, Nicl. Right. I think if you look at the range of use cases and what's realistic for any one country to do, — right? You have to look at your kind of approach to technology as a portfolio and then there will be a range. you know, if I've got very sensitive national security applications, I want probably an airgapped cloud, right? I don't want to be relying on anyone else. I can't have anyone else kill switch that, right? If I'm doing a healthcare application domestically, I might be a bit more okay with the model provider as long as I don't have lockin and I can switch out different providers. Could be open source, could be domestic, could be foreign. — And you would be skeptical. I would want the data to stay right. there I would want my data sovereignty and I'd want the compute and to be domestic. And then there'll be some other commercial applications where actually it's quicker and easier and cheaper to use some foreign thing and it's not mission critical and it's just actually I want to prioritize cost and speed. — I think India has done it for financial data already where it's hosted in India. — Yeah. — I suspect soon all Indian data will be hosted in India. — Yeah. I look all countries are it's not just India all countries are thinking about these issues differently to the how they did in the past because the geopolitical environment has changed so you have to think about sovereignty we're in a world where — countries have weaponized supply chains there's more geopolitical competition and you can't afford not to have resilience — and do you think the world will continue to move in this direction where we're kind of like I don't know If I can call it del globalization, — it's d-risking. It's de-risking. I think, you know, if you think about supply chain, it used to be all about just in time. Physical supply chain time and now it's about just in case. — But do you mean how countries now operate on their own versus the kind of — coming together global order? — There used to be like I think consensus building. Yeah. — Maybe up until 5 years ago. Right now it seems to be everybody for the — but I think it — it's not as stark as that in the sense that you have to be more resilient right you have to think about sovereignty because that multilateral rules-based system much as it existed — let me give you an analogy you will like cricket used to have a world cup where all the countries in the world came to play and compete now there are 20 different leagues one big league many small leagues some irrelevant leagues something like that — maybe triggered by the Americans — H
Segment 17 (80:00 - 85:00)
— with tariffs and everything else they're doing — I do still think there is a role for partnerships and cooperation to look what India's just done signed trade agreement with the UK signed a trade — with the EU uh the EU has signed a trade agreement with Latin America the UK joined The Trans-Pacific — Partnership is currently talking to the Gulf about doing that. So — the Azan countries are figuring out how to deepen their economic cooperation. So yes, the US has changed its approach and not just with this administration. Those changes have been in place for a while. It's changed its approach to trade in particular and it and how it views global defense. But that doesn't mean that other countries have given up on the idea that there can be mutually beneficial trading relationships. — So lots of different partnerships — and that they can form mutually beneficial partnerships whether that's in technology, whether that's in goods, whether that's in sharing um critical minerals supply chain. So I don't think it's as stark as every country is just out for itself. But clearly you have to if you're running a country be more focused on resilience and sovereignty than you were five years ago. — Are governments forgiving? Does it come down to one person? I'm just painting a scenario. Let's assume Trump's era comes to an end and there is a new president. I don't know. It could be his vice president. It could be Democrats. Whoever comes into power and the UK has a new — Mhm. — prime minister. Do you go back to zero and start all over or do you remember and you think that oh this person did this? — Uh so a couple of things. One is to remember that some of these forces have been in place before President Trump. Uh and do I think a future US president is going to suddenly cut all the tariffs? No. — Right. The baseline of tariffs to the US is going to be higher in the future. I think regardless of who the president is, — um, not least because whoever the new president is will have got used to the tariff revenue. It's quite a hard thing to get rid of. — Do you believe the tariffs are inherently a bad thing because many countries have custom duties — on US produce? — Yeah, I look I I'm someone who generally believes in free trade, — right? — I I'm on the free trade side of things. I think it's important that trade is fair and there are level playing fields which is why you know if I think about China's experience in the joining the global trade system when that was that decision was made in 2001 then there was I think at the time reasonable belief that bringing China into that system would a impact its political outlook — like take China for example — but it what happened is China didn't play by the same set of trading rules that everyone else played with. Right? — So how do you deal with something like that? If I were China and I say I will not let your technology enter my country. I will build replicas and subsidize it for my own people. I will put tariffs on all the goods that are American coming into my country. What is left in America's playbook? I'll also artificially deflate my currency to make my trade more competent than yours. what's left in America's playbook then to mimic the action of the other country — and that's where I think as I said the trade has to be fair and on a level playing field and if you haven't got that then this kind of you know free trade model that you know works in theory — I it's harder to explain to your citizens and to say that this is fine in practice and it's not just the US the EU has done the same thing with uh tar putting tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles because of the subsidization that happens domestically uh which is then that's not a level playing field right if people are freely fairly competing then trade can be mutually beneficial but if one side is unfairly advantaging its exporters with government subsidies to that extent [snorts] uh and then they have artificially low prices then obviously countries are going to take action and Again, that's not just the US. That's the EU. So I — can I make a counterargument to that? — Yeah. — I don't remember what book I was reading this in, but at one point in time in UK's history, Birmingham was the center of innovation. — A lot of the patents that were being created in the world happened in that one tiny place. I don't remember where I read this, but they were making a case for how Birmingham and the local economy shut down to foreign products. So, the industry locally could thrive and when
Segment 18 (85:00 - 90:00)
they came up to scale and came up to a certain quality, they opened up all over again. — Yeah. Look, there's a there's an infant industry argument. Yeah. Um that has you know that as I said every stage every country will have a different approach to this but you know in general between developed countries where there is a similarity in approach freer trade is — is better in uh in my view uh as the key is it being done in a fair way where there's a level playing field and particular with China you know that has not been the case um which is a problem I think will increasingly become a problem because more and more countries are having to deal with the Chinese development model which is very export oriented where that to your point they don't prioritize domestic consumption they prioritize exports and then lots of countries now are absorbing a huge amount of Chinese imports um and that — including India — incl the rest of the world if you look at what's happened you the US obviously has slowed that down — Chinese exports though and the Chinese trade surplus is a record high as a percentage of global GDP. So all those exports are going to all these other countries. So I think there'll be increasing tension with these other countries. You know the EU has already put on tariffs on Chinese EVs. So I think you will see that. But look this focus on as to your point though about your question about you know what happens if there's a new president where do things reset to co also was the clarifying moment that many of us live through in government that made us all focus about supply chains and the resilience of those supply chains so that you don't forget that and that changes your approach. I think those people who worry about national security were nervous around Huawei telecom's equipment. That was the other big event that happened while I was in government where we went through a process of deciding that we weren't going to rely on Chinese telecoms equipment and that is before AI. We were focused on that and that was an expensive and disruptive decision for many countries to take. These things stay right regardless who the US president is or British prime minister. You know, those are structural features that now need to be incorporated in into your thinking. — I'm not going to talk to Axita like she's Rishi's wife or Nari's daughter. — Uh I think you've been dealt if this were a poker game. — Yeah. — A really hard set of cards. — I don't play poker, so I will follow along. — I can I can translate you. I um but sure I get I I — but you were saying um Delta hard set of cards. — Yeah. I feel like there is a emotional tax — to being interpreted as a extremely successful man's daughter — where if we were to define happiness as rate of change in a way very hard to get there. I think people often look at the children of very accomplished men — versus women. You mean — men and women? — Yeah. — As being lucky. — But I think the counter is true. I feel like they're some of the most unluckiest people — because it's so much harder for them to actually feel a sense of accomplishment, — sense of self, right? And — then to have your husband suddenly become the prime minister, — it can't have been fun for you. — So interesting. So a couple of things. Um I'm hugely proud of my dad and Rishi. But do you know Nicola and this is maybe come this comes back to that unorthodox thinking that I have. I haven't let it burden me as much. Right. So let's talk about my dad. It's partly a timing thing. Um emphasis was not this kind of what it became in time hugely successful uh tech uh um start what was a startup and then became a tech business. Um it was a company my dad started because he was looking at how could he add value to India and he thought originally you know all of this right he thought communism was the way and then he had the stint in Western Europe and became a big fan of capitalism. So, so he was thinking, well, how can I? — He told me some crazy stories around
Segment 19 (90:00 - 95:00)
that. What happened when he was traveling, all of that, right? That's like a whole another podcast. But, — um, so for him, he figured out that economic uh development and economic success gave you a great deal of power on the global stage. And so he said well how can I play a small role in helping India um develop that um credibility and and stand taller. — Um having said that it was not an overnight success and um and so I saw him in many ways beavering away right at something he believed in. He had a emphasis I don't know if you remember but the motto that he came up with was um powered by intellect driven by values right so here he was someone who had a strong has still a strong moral compass and he believed that um you power that moral compass with deep intellectual rigor and with skills that he had which happened to be in the tech space. Well, he was an engineer. Um, but it was not an overnight success. I'm not saying it was a failure, but it took a long time. So, I grew up very much being my own person. um partly my thinking, partly circumstances and by the time emphasis became uh more wellknown I was studying in the US and that also was a slightly unorthodox choice because um I guess I could have gone into engineering um in India but that wasn't my passion and I always valued breath um and the liberal arts education offered that and that was on the west coast in California so I was far away somewhat and uh and always made my professional decisions you know I I got the jobs I did on my own I I pursued opportunities that I created um and so while I was hugely proud of my father I was also used to standing on my own two feet right and then I met Rishi Um, and this has nothing to do with my parents' success, but he reminded me a lot of my dad because he too, like my father, had this huge passion for his country. Mhm. — And I remember one of the things Rish you said very early on, we were talking about how your parents' journey to the UK had transformed your family's life and then you know they of course work really hard to provide you with this education and you would one day hope to grow up and in your own way create a platform uh create opportunities for lots of other young rishies to have boys and girls to have these kinds of opportunities. Um, so that reminded me a lot of my dad. Um, and so I was again, you know, Richie wasn't in the plan for many reasons, but I it but it was inspiring to me. And so for me, my dad has always been someone, yes, he's been successful, he's done really well, etc., but to me, he's been an inspiring figure. And that's what I've taken away from it and said how can I then introduce that in my own life through my own journey and by the way I'm not a technologist I'm not an engineer and I never felt bad about that because I it was very clear to me from very early on I'm going to carve my own path and so absolutely am I and look you know Rishi and I got together etc became PM but even then that's why I was talking to about lessons at 10 right is PM he does his thing I would never interfere in his role, in his job. But I was very clear that I was also going to in some way, — thank you, — create my own path. — Mhm. — And do something that I deeply cared about. Um and so I guess I'm feel, right? Um, and so I don't, for lack of a better term, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. I think — Thank you. I feel quite grateful that I've had through for many different reasons access to so many opportunities and every time I'm thinking how can I make it my own and that's been something from when I was very young. — So forget Rishi and your dad. Where does
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Axita's validation come from? — So, one of my values, I have three values. Um, and we've spoken about some of those things. Um, compassion, curiosity, and personal integrity. And personal integrity to me is I define it as being authentic to who I am. Others may not like it. Others may not understand it, but if it ma if it sits well inside of me, you know, we were talking earlier about intuition, right? I'm I lean into my intuition more — than average certainly between the two of us. I I'm more on the intuitive side. Where does I think my Look, I'm not going to say I'm holier than thou and I don't see validation. Of course not. All of us do. I really care about having impact, right? So, what does that mean? Um, you know, when we apply to Stanford, they ask you to write this essay. And even today, they still ask you to write the same essay. It's called at least one of the few essays you have to write. Um, it the question is, what matters most to you and why? And um I remember writing about um rain in Mumbai actually um because around that time I was 23 um we were I haven't sort of spent a long time in Mumbai in a little while but you know the monsoon can be quite heavy and for those of us who have a roof over our heads we can observe the monsoon and um say, "Oh, that's pleasant. " Um but for those of us who don't, it's less pleasant. And so I wrote about equality and how do I help create an a society where there is more equality. Um — equality of wealth, — not so equality of opportunity at least, — not outcome, — not outcome. And look, I was 23, hugely idealistic, and I really wanted to do something that helped society in some way, the broader society. And I'd seen my parents through my dad through emphasis and then my mother through the Infosys foundation marry that impact from capitalism to philanthropy. And I was I that really moved me — and it's what we used to discuss a lot about even at Stanford — we'd have these big not big but we'd have these debates right about CSR and — I covered it from a bit more of a traditionally — capitalistic economic way — economic argument yeah and you know and actually stood out for again especially in a [clears throat] business school environment She you always stood out because you were always that the one person in whatever study group. — Well, how does it impact society? the most vulnerable people? How does it — I think it's all validation. If one person gets validation through a capitalistic win, — yeah, — another gets it through a moralistic win or an altruistic win. — It's all validation. — No, fair enough. You're absolutely — I feel like we're all seeking the same height. The pathway is different. — Different. Yeah. That's — Yeah. No, fair enough. That's bad. — The this pathway comes further down the journey than that pathway because I think you have to win at capitalism before you can win. And that was — and and many people will say, Nikl, all well and good that you want to be altruistic. You don't have to pay the bills or worry about paying the bills, right? I get that. — But then I also feel a huge sense of responsibility as a result. — And to your point, you need to do the first bit. — You generally like which is what your dad did, right? it was that you have that impact only because you've been able to — create the wealth and create the platform the — company. So e either I can bemoone that and say oh no I'm either person X's daughter or person Y's wife etc or I can say I'm hugely lucky to have what I have. What do I do with it? So in a sense that blank canvas I've had much earlier in my life. — Yeah. — And let me tell you some of the pictures I've drawn I've not been pretty. Right. But I've had the blank canvas and I think that's it's also a little bit my personality. Like I don't it's that poem that you gave me you know when we first met or the one of the first gifts you gave me that poem. — Are you that guy who gives poems? No, he
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is not. He's given one one. Before he said, "Oh, YEAH, I AM THAT GUY. " I WAS GOING TO BE LIKE, "NO, — it was early on. " It was uh it's only just been once. — It has only just been one, but anyway, but I knew of it anyway. THAT'S WHY YOU GAVE IT to me. Not like you introduced me to it. Um by Raja Kipling called If. And um my mother reminds me all the time that um these words are painted or carved in the changing rooms in center court in Wimbledon before you go out to play the tennis match where if I'm not going to quote it exactly at all, but you know, if you look at winning and losing as two sides of the same coin, — then you you're truly a man, right? If you can if you treat and disaster as two imposters just the same, right? — So, so um I think that's uh the kind of stuff that is how you are — that is my approach to life. So, you know, I started a fashion business. Well, I we finished business school and then I was working in brand consulting. uh during business school I'd written a — before you get but that point on the try that is — very who you are — you are much more — which I've learned from right like when you know the good things happen don't get carried away — not that you're not bad — thankful appreciative all of that like when Rishi became PM moment but it didn't that's why I think we both kind of struggled to answer that question because it wasn't like — not because we don't honor it and our huge hugely proud of that moment. Great triumph. — Mhm. — But equally, anyone who's had great triumphs will tell you you also see great disasters. Right. — And then I — I think it's it's very evolved that you accept the cards that you're dealt — because many others in your position really struggle with it. — I'll tell you another thing that is bad today. M — I don't know if it's good or bad but for somebody who gets their high from the moralistic altruistic winds in life — society or pop culture has suddenly become conditioned in a manner where anybody who goes out and says they're doing something to do good — the general emotion is distrust. — Yeah. So — you're not trying — you're almost swimming against the time, right? — The timing is — difficult. — But there again, Nikl, that's who I am, — right? And that doesn't mean I've I have won as such at at life, right? I've had my ups, I've had my downs. Um, but I know I will always have stayed true to who I am and what my beliefs are. — Yeah. — And you have a very clear sense of that. — Yeah. Clear. I have a clear sense of who I am. — Yeah. Yeah. You have much. — I didn't impose that on you or I mean I impose that a bit on you, but we — in a nice way. But it it's so liberating. — Um and you know another way to look at it is um during the pandemic Rishi became a chancellor um which all happened quite suddenly. So, so I was with the kids a lot and you know you're just trying to like figure out how to live this new life and I picked up Herman Hess's book uh called Sedartha and you read about what uh Lord Buddha said and it's the middle path it's the balance. — Mhm. That doesn't mean you shun — desire — but equally you don't shun um austerity — right you embrace both in a way because what comes out of that — that um those two extremes comes the middle path and uh Anushka was saying this the other day she if she's our youngest daughter she's 13 she said the Romans I hope because I don't know this philosophy as well as she does. She was talking about the Stoics versus the Epicurans. — Mhm. — The Epicurans are all about — More Greek than Romans. — More Greek actually. Exactly. The Epicurans embraced desire — and amusement. — Um and the Stoics somewhat shun that. But actually the happy place is somewhere in the middle and it's not you're not on the moral high ground if
Segment 22 (105:00 - 110:00)
you think you are a stoic versus an Epicurian and that's the balance right so I have always chased for lack of a better word that balance — and so even in the highs of my parents success and they've had their highs and their lows like any human being even in the highs and lows of our own life together. I've tried I don't always succeed at finding that balance. — Do you think you need to retain that balance throughout or is it okay to allow yourself to drift between both the sides? — Oh, I definitely drift between both. — And in fact, I remember one of the first things my mother said to me, "Oh, what do you like about Rishi? " And I said, he just allows me to have more fun. — And we were talking earlier how our parents are of different, you know, my family is more reserved, — um, uh, intellectual, quieter. I'm not saying that's bad and one is good. And but I met Rishi who was lots of energy and lots of excitement about so many different things and so I thought that was amazing you know a different way of looking at life. — Um so I've always I haven't the balance comes from embracing both I think. Yeah, — because then you say, "Oh, this doesn't quite feel right all the time, or right. " And then you might say, "Well, how do you know? I think there's a feeling inside. " Whether you want to call that intuition, it's gut. It's a kind of deep uh feeling you get and I've had that from a young as a young person. So, I just — I have a theory for this. — Yeah. — I feel like us South Indians — Yeah. never saw war as frequently as the North Indians did. We didn't see conflict. — I have the exact same theory. — And people who don't know how long they're going to live for. — Yeah. Embrace the moment. Embrace the — I think we have to learn from them to embrace the moment a bit more — completely. In fact, I was saying I remember even in our wedding, my mother and I, we have these kinds of discussions — and she we both love history. And that's exactly what her and I said is in general, North Indian weddings tend to be bolder and um quite fun and South Indian weddings seem more tame in comparison and you're absolutely right that you have to make the most of what you have when you have it. — Yeah. — So again, no moral kind of judgment about it. Um but have that but know that life is not just about that. — Yeah. — Right. — Yeah. So maybe middle ground is the — the middle path. Yeah. — Almost always the answer — for so many things. — Yep. Absolutely. — Yeah. You have to develop that ability not to get carried away by success but equally not to be so deflated by failure. You know, you know that said when thinking about failure, there's good and bad ways to deal with it. what you you've got to turn it into something positive. — But that requires a mindset where if something bad happens, your story, the story you tell yourself about it can't be one which is victim- centered — where like this bad thing happened because I was a victim of this or victim of that and all these bad things happened to me. You have to be able to more objectively look at it and just self-reflect and say, "What did I not quite get right? what did I misjudge uh and turn it then you can turn it into something positive where you say okay now how do I improve my process for the future and you've always said this to me you said you'd be kinder to yourself because I'd be beating myself up and you always say be kinder to yourself — I always say to Rishi I say this to the girls because we have two teenage girls they're 13 and 14 and I say — if the person you have to be kindest to first is yourself because then you understand deep inside what that actually means before you can practice it in the real world. — And I know we talk about that a lot. — And you remember if you're in these jobs, if you're leading that most of the decisions that you make almost by definition are 50/50 decisions. — And if they were not, like someone else would have made it, right? And so the only decisions that come to you are the exceptionally hard 50-50 ones. And you in terms of being kind to yourself, you have to recognize you're not going to get all of them right. — Like you know and you are in that
Segment 23 (110:00 - 115:00)
position. Someone else said this to me, very successful technology executive said this to me an early meeting he had with me actually in Downing Street. He said that you're in this position because your ability to make those decisions is on average better than most other people, right? Your judgment is on average better. You wouldn't be sitting here. I wouldn't be talking to you. So trust that and have some confidence in it and then you know when things don't go right as long as you're honestly self-reflective about it recognize good and bad outcomes of the same process reflect and then think what you can learn from it take away for the next time you know that is a very I mean it's I learned how to do that not perfectly but because you're still learning but it's that is it's a very necessary part of being a good leader it's not — no matter what you do by it's not just political leadership I just you understanding these failures, how to cope with them, how to then turn them into something positive so that you grow and it doesn't consume you because you can get into a negative spiral after it where it's very damaging. — I've um become um really fascinated by this term called metacognition, right? — Which is thinking about the thinking. — So look at an outcome and you say okay outcome X happened why did it happen? Why did I behave the way I did? Did I deploy my strengths and weaknesses? Why are those my strengths versus these? Um, and then regulating your thinking, met regulation, right? I thought I think that is um metacognitive regulation. Meta I just think that's just a fascinating way for where humans are heading. — I find most words which have meta in the beginning are very interesting. — There you go. Exactly. Let's just add metacognition. — It sounds good. — Metacognitive regulation. — Yeah. I must say you both make a really good case for marriage. — That's good to hear. It doesn't feel — we're going to clip that and play it like a ringtone. — Yeah, exactly. That's so weird you said that because that's exactly I was going to say that's going to be our ringtone. it uh — we're very yin and yang — but it comes with more friction in a way because but what we're talking about right at the beginning because we approach things differently and we are quite different but there's a — I'm going to give — you know there's a common set of values and and so the product of it I think is better as a result of the combination of us on most things we get to a better answer — I'll give you a silly example I feel like I have to say this before your deep thought finished. Rishi turned we turned 30 around the same time. We were in LA at the time and this new ice cream shop opened and I said to Rish, "Oh, you know, they have like 30 flavors. It's all natural, etc. " And he's like, "Oh, no. I just like vanilla. " So, we go there and they do have 30 flavors, right? Like shezzan, pepperc corn ice cream. — Oh, I love that. — Yeah. Passion fruit, I don't know, black pepper, all sorts of things. And I mean Richishy picks vanilla. And I'm like, "What do you mean? " And he's like, "Well, what do you pick? " And on purpose, I pick the most bizarre flavor that is because that's kind of my approach to life. Like, give me a situation and I will look at it with a totally risk-taking mindset. Whereas Rishi wouldn't that wouldn't be your first step. — No, — you wouldn't say what is the most risky thing should I mean I'm exaggerating but but you would say well what's the sense of — but the rest of that story — right — that all sounds great. The rest of that story is — you hated your flavor. — You didn't she didn't like the thing. Right. So we've left and then she doesn't like it and then we've gone and then she then I No. Then she ate mine. Right. And then I'm stuck. Not cuz I don't like I'm forced to eat this thing that I don't like you, you know. And so yeah, it's all very well. — That's the yin and yang. — Yeah, the yinyang. — When I think of marriage, — I feel like it has worked so well. — In a certain way, it's a great way to ensure against loneliness and always have attention and validation. the concept of family — because you don't get the peaks and the troughs you but you get a little bit every — day. I'm trying to think. Um — I mean I think I mean I without question — could not function if we weren't married, — right? In terms of prof professionally function, not just personally. I mean I because I can't imagine doing all the things that I've had to do on my own.
Segment 24 (115:00 - 120:00)
— So to your point, loneliness, not just in a social companionship perspective. which I actually I mean that's nice but I it's much deeper than that. It's at like having this, you know, people talk about life partner, whatever the word you want to use. — It's called soulmate. — Soulmate. No, but it's this partnership, but I'm not even trying to get to that bit of the deal. I think actually almost more practical. I think there is that and that is obviously wonderful. — But the slightly more practical aspect of it is someone who you can share these very difficult things with and who can support you when you need it. or support. I think it's it brings out the best in you. — Yeah. I you know sees you in a way that not everyone sees — where the sum uh is greater than uh the pots. Right. — So certainly for that is particularly acute. I think for everybody but you know if you're in one of these very high pressure situations — you know you can't do that on your own. Well I certainly could not have done it on my own. Let that go. not your therapist. — Yeah. Who's maybe these days you could do a therapist, but it's not the same — for me. It's a bit like that. — Yeah. Probably a bit tricky if you're prime minister. — Yeah. But but I'll tell you the counter to that, right? So we have together faced ups and downs um while staying true to who we are etc. But like some one of the criticisms I've faced is well don't what's your identity? Right? Because as you rightly said, you know, you're your father's daughter, your husband's wife. And so, um, it's got me thinking, you know, what's identity about? H how do you define yourself? And is it based on where you live? what language you speak, what you eat, — but we're saying you're different, right? Um, and you know, lately I've been getting a lot of push back on my accent, right? You grew up in Bangalore British accent. Do you understand any of that? — I don't know. — just like being at home. — Um anyway, um I'll come back to that accent thing in a second actually. Um but I — Does Nichols speak more like your mom or dad? — I would assume more like my dad. My — kind of dad, right? Yeah. — Um — so what's where do you get your identity from? So, so for me my identity comes from genuinely having impact and I'll unpack that. So, it's how can I give to the communities in which I live? How can I stay true to my values? How can I honor my heritage? And so whatever we do professionally, um, even how we raise our children, I'm constantly thinking I'm probably less worried than most about some of the more I'm not going to use the word superficial. some of the more tangible concepts of identity like what food we eat or what language we speak or um — how you dress — or how you dress, how I sound. — Um but staying true to your values, staying true to what matters most to you. Um you know, that's how I've defined Oh, thank you. my identity versus it being trying to match someone else's or trying to meet societal expectations of what identity should be right and so like with my accent for example actually let's take a step back you know I remember rishi and I came to India for the G20 and it was incredibly emotional for me Nikl because I was coming to the place where I was raised. that defined
Segment 25 (120:00 - 125:00)
my heritage of which I'm very proud of. I was coming to a place that was my former home but in a way representing a different home. Right? So ho how do you handle that? And that's that really got me thinking about well in a scenario like this who are you British or are you Indian? Are you neither? Are you both? And it reminds me of what I think PM Modi said I think in 2015 maybe when he was in the UK for that um — uh event and he said you know the Indians who are living in the UK are all part of the living bridge the Indian diaspora um and they connect Britain to India and vice versa. And so I'm but one of the people living on this bridge, you know, the bridge that you know when you think of a bridge, it connects two places. It doesn't belong just to one place or the other. So for me, my when I think deeply about who I am in in the context of current day, I am part of that living bridge. I feel incredibly at home in India. I am incredibly emotional about my um I use the word emotional because I'm it moves me my heritage. I'm incredibly proud of my heritage, my um how I was raised. Um but I have also had these incredibly meaningful experiences in the UK. That's where we're raising our family and I am deeply committed to that community as well. So the things that I'm engaging in now and I'm doing them in areas that mean things to me. So in arts, culture, history, entrepreneurship, um creativity, uh these are areas that speak to me and I'm constantly looking at how can I honor both these places and play a small role in bringing them together. So, so long- winded way is um I'm very much a Bangalore girl with a British accent. — You're not as big an RCB fan as me. There we go. — True. — Jagger girl. Jagger. — Jagger girl. Yes. Yes. — We probably went to many of the same restaurants cuz we're similar ages. — Yeah. Well, I still think you're quite a bit younger, but you know. — No. 39 45. — I know. But it's like when you hit 40 Yeah. 80s. MTR is not in Janagar. MTR is more nearwani I think. — Okay, fine. — Yeah, Jagger used to have — Which ones are you thinking about in Janagar? — I would say — there was a place called Dosa Camp. — Yes. In fourth block. — Yes. I remember the day it opened. — They put everything in the dosa from mushrooms to baby gone to whatever you can think of. — Yeah. — That ice cream place was presumably not there when you were growing up. — The corner house. House. Oh, it was. Oh, great. Yeah, we got that. — Yes. — I used to eat — they had this thing called Death by Chocolate. — Yeah. Yeah. They still have it. My kids had it two days ago. Yeah. — Adigas was there back then. — Adigas was I can't remember where exactly it was. — Yeah. — And then there were some I think the first time I came your dad thought I should have this Indo-Chinese food. — Yeah. I mean that's all. Yeah. — Yeah. I forget. — You guys live near that park, right? Near the ground. — Yeah. — Not park. Ground. — Yeah. Ground. I used to go there to play cricket. — Yeah. — I have played cricket there. — Yeah. — On my first trip, not less now, but when I used to come when I — can you get by in India without security and stuff like that. — It you know I it is the most ex incredible thing when I'm here because people are so kind. They are so welcoming. They're so supportive. Uh, and it is humbling every time. Um, so I do as best job I can of trying to talk to as many people as possible and say thank you to them and chat with them. Um, so it's a wonderful and overwhelming experience every time. — Well, you make us look very good. I hope like you keep winning and doing better at different things. — It's is good. No, we um we love it's been a great good week at the summit. We have I probably now that I'm a bit freer it's nice because we can be here more often — and we I've been in India almost every few months for the past year or bit you know it's been really lovely and we've been home we've taken the kids on different places they saw Taj Mahal last year for the first time — I've done lots of work things here we
Segment 26 (125:00 - 130:00)
and then we were and then the cricket you know I've seen — I've been in Bombay for cricket with your dad we went to the IPL final so it's been Great. We did Jour Literary Festival last year. So, it's now we're getting a chance to — enjoy a bit more of all these things. — I'm going to ask you another selfish question. — I think a big motive I have, I'm using myself as the placeholder, but I think a lot more young people need to participate in politics. — I think you're like testament to that. — I think it's a great thing in society and more needs to happen. when you become a politician and you see these really big problems uh I'll be a little specific to your to the to England and you know that use case but say fixing the NHS reducing debt reducing inflation — for somebody sitting on the outside a young guy who wants to be in politics — when you go in and try to fix these problems how hard is it — is it poss Is it a is it that one person can actually change stuff? — Yeah, I've lots of thoughts. So I think if you want to do it, you need to have resilience, patience and you need to be driven by service rather than ambition. You need resilience because it is unforgiving. Right? It in this day and age with social media like you need to have thick skin. We've talked all about how, you know, you cope with failure, but just coping with the day-to-day criticism, you have to be able to deal with that. Um, and partly the best way to deal with it, by the way, is not to engage with a lot of it because we're all human, right? You're going to have the thickest skin in the world. We're all human. Um, but you do need that resilience. You need patience because, I'll come to this in a second, things take longer than you would think. Uh, certainly longer than the private sector. Um, and look, all politicians, if we're being honest, are motivated by both ambition and duty or public service. I think every politician is being honest that there's both, right? — Personal ambition. — I think Yeah. Yes. Personal ambition, right? I think if they're being honest, I certainly am. Most politicians are they're motivated by both. You just need to know where you sit on that scale. And if you are overly weighted towards personal ambition, I think you will not be successful. People will see through it and it won't you won't — have that impact. — You won't be able to do the things that are necessary to succeed. Um so I think those are the three preconditions for getting involved. Then I'll ask you answer your other question about you know can young people do it or how do they think about change? I you know there's some things that I think some not all but some young people misunderstand about how to bring about change and I think one is there's this kind of almost cinematic notion that change happens in a moment. — Yeah. — It's a speech. — You have to remember we've grown up on movies which one guy becomes the prime minister for a day and fixes the country. — That's it. and and great story — and and change and change is less about a moment and a it's more about a movement, right? It's it takes time. Uh and the other thing is, you know, voice matters, but change comes about through participation. And again, there's this romantic notion that change comes about because you're the outsider, the rebel, the disruptor. Actually the change happens more because people become part of the process. They institutions. They change from the inside through a period of time and hard work. A and that's what I try and get across to young people is, you know, that's for the most part how substantive change happens. It happens when you decide to come inside and be part of the process and take the time to bring it about. the kind of romantic cinematic notion that it can happen from the outside being the disruptor with one speech or amazing protest, you know, that it works in the movies. I think it's less about real life, which is why young people should, if they do want to change things for the better, do it through government and come into public service and come in come into politics to — come into politics and then do what? — And then convince other politicians. — Sorry. — Convince other politicians. I think let me give you an example I use because people say oh you can only have change if you become prime minister everyone gets to become prime minister and I say that's not true and the example I give young people who are thinking about becoming an MP is of a
Segment 27 (130:00 - 135:00)
guy called William Wilberforce — and he was an MP in Yorkshire same as me and my predecessor as a member of parliament wrote a beautiful biography about him. Now, William Wilberforce was someone who essentially abolished the slave trade — uh in the UK and then internationally and then helped abolish slavery. He was never a cabinet member, let alone prime minister or chancellor. He made a decision to do it only as a backbench MP because he believed that would give him the freedom and the moral authority and the time to focus on this one thing. He also had patience from the first time he entered parliament and made a speech about it. It took 20 years for him to get a [clears throat] bill passed in parliament to abolish the slave trade and then another 20 odd years to have parliament declare that slavery itself was illegal. So and then he died 3 days after that. Right? So his career on this issue spanned 40 years of which the big meaningful the first meaningful thing happened after 20. And during that period he had all the things that we've been talking about he had to cope with failure. Parliament voted more than 10 times. No, no, no, no. U, — but like we discussed earlier, if everybody has to have the incentive of personal ambition being met, how do I incentivize a young guy who will only find that personal ambition need being met if he sits in a position of power? — position of power. Um well then this goes back to what we were saying before. There are lots of different ways to make a difference right in life. There are lots of different ways to have impact but if you want to have impact on that scale the best way to do it is through government or through the political process. And that's what I'm saying. But even though you I'm saying you need to do it through the we don't need to but the best way to do it is through the political process. It doesn't mean you have to be the prime minister. Yeah. — Or in the cabinet. What I'd say is there are hundreds of members of parliament, right? That is a different bar to becoming the prime minister. But this individual, William Wberforce, as one of 600 odd me, however many it was in those days, hundreds of members of parliament, was able to bring about this very significant change. Um, and he didn't do it on his own either. He touches on what we were saying before. He built a movement around him. Other people played their part. You know, he was the person at the front. But I think it's a really instructive story for young people to read and I was inspired by it because I didn't know I was going to end up in cabinet or be prime minister. But it was, you know, as long as well as what up's dad said to me, it was a great story of how one person can you say can one person do? Look, it takes more than one person of course as a team. But it, you know, this was one person who made it his mission to do it. And it goes back to what you said earlier, Nikl about different motivations being complimentary. and was talking about this and I he had a moral view that slavery was wrong and that's what motivated him and he was a person of faith and — but he was smart — right and he recognized that wasn't the best way to persuade everyone and actually he came up with an economic case as to why slavery was wrong and he came up with a patriotic security case why the slave trade was wrong because Britain was in a war with France and He was saying well people are giving slaves to French they'll be able to come and beat Britain so we should bang the trade and he was clever that way right for him it was a moral mission but ultimately he knew some people would be motivated by different things so he was able to bring all of that to bear um and ultimately as I said have the patience have the resilience the storytelling that we talked about um but based actually oddly as well he was a great erator you know you and I talking about learning from that. But there was another guy called Thomas Clarkson who did all the hard work of documenting — what was happening in these camps in the slave plantations on the boats where people are being traded which is awful and just painstakingly documented all this detail and hard work which ultimately then became part of these stories. So I think it's a really powerful way to illustrate how change comes about, how politics is the best way or parliamentary processes are the best way to bring about massive change but also illustrating that you don't need to be the prime minister or in the cabinet to do it. — But totally agree but I think maybe Nikil what you're asking at is what kind of people should go into politics. — Yeah. Who should get into politics? No, I'm thinking for our audience like the people you're speaking to are young — Indian wannabe entrepreneurs. — If I have to convince one of them to become a politician, — I need the I need to meet their need for validation and their personal ambition need both. I'm trying to put something in each box — in the validation and ambition box. But
Segment 28 (135:00 - 140:00)
— So, first of all, I don't think they need to give up being an entrepreneur, — right? We talked about before. I think people are more effective as politicians or in government having brought that experience into parliament — with them or into government with them. So for the people listening, you know, I would say go build your business. You you're going to learn an extraordinary amount. — But I'm figuring how to trigger them to enter politics today. — After they've built the business or right now? right now. — Well, do they need to? — Yeah. — Why do they need to do it today? — I This is the thing. I mean, — sure, some people might want to. I'm My personal bias is for people to do something else first. — Yeah. — And I don't think, and this goes back to what we were saying before, there's this, you know, rush, rush. — Build your business. Why? because it will give you that validation that you want — and skills — and set of practical skills and financial security and independence. And my word, what an incredible platform that is to then — enter politics where you have so much more understanding and self-awareness of who you are. Mhm. — You've already got that validation, — which means you'll enter the political arena with so much more personal self-confidence, — the resilience of having had the ups and downs of building a business and doing something and then using that experience to benefit the country. But that motivation has to be one where you are getting into it because you want to make your country a better place, right? That has to be at the core of it, right? And that's okay to be ambitious. — That's true for many young people. Yeah. — But what I'm trying to also say is for a country where the average age is 28, — we need more people who are 28 in parliament. — I look I can see that. I can see that overall. I can my point about as an individual I think you're better off — having the experience. I can see if everyone does that and then nobody is in parliament young age. I can see that. But maybe rish it comes back to that passion thing which you were saying so eloquently about William Wilberforce right for I don't know the history so pardon me but he — he entered parliament at 28 — right so he — thank you chief he had this deepseated passion for abolishing slavery that mattered more to him than anything else — and in a country as large as India where you said the average age 28 — I am sure there are young people or 28 year olds — who there are at least some 28-y olds who will have these moral missions — but there will be — but they don't need to this again what we were saying before — they don't need to just have some moral or social mission it's a great mission. If someone is — listening to you — but cares passionately about entrepreneurship — right — then you know that's not a social necessarily a kind of social outcome but — or for good — going into parliament — go ahead — to make sure that India is a fantastic country for entrepreneurs [clears throat] — to encourage all the people listening to you to grow their business — you may not make the money an entrepreneur [clears throat] — but they're passionate about entrepreneurship and they recognize that entrep- reneurship is important to India succeeding. — Go into parliament and be the champion for that. — Yeah. — Right. — Be the champion for small business. — What does it mean to make India the I mean India is already a very vibrant entrepreneur ecosystem but we can all get better but that can be your passion. It doesn't have to be it's fine. There will be some people who have a more social classic right. also leaning into who we are, right? Like cuz you're you're I'm — but I think you know for lots of people who are entrepreneurally minded or technology minded those things can be put to incredible positive good for India. So you can be excited and passionate about those areas and think actually well I'm going to use politics as the vehicle to make sure India and Indians prosper when it comes to technology entrepreneurship right that can be your mission — and the validation comes from I mean you'll speak better than me but you know if you can get some kind of law passed right that makes it easier for small businesses to be incorporated not to get into controversial topics but social media to be regulated whatever it is right — when you do one thing when you contribute to changing one clause and one law that's passing parliament that will unlock something special for entrepreneurs or technologists
Segment 29 (140:00 - 145:00)
— for the rest of your life you will have done that for 1. 4 four billion people. It's a pretty big I mean you're talking about validate where people want validation. I you know sure it's great to have a company in a unicorn IPO that is great — changing a law that is going to impact 1. 4 billion people and how your country progresses. You think about the compounding benefit of that like that is you know sure it doesn't all that value doesn't acrue to you personally monetary value doesn't — and that's where the service bit — right that's where you have to be motivated the societal value — is not in the unicorn billion here 100 million here it's in the — hundreds and hundreds of billions um or the — millions and millions so I you know — I'm excited to be 28 and go into politics now — there are some you know yeah — you know the guy in uh our constituency South Bangalore is quite young. — Oh, is he? — Yes. His name is — Tes of mine. He's a young child. — Yeah. — The other reason that people should think about it is — notwithstanding everything I said before about experience and everything else. It's differentiating, — right? If you are one of very few young people, — you are differentiated in — public adoration is a big point of validation — which does come with being a politician. — I think that say that is a — it's different in different countries. — That's a tricky part. — Yeah, that is in different countries. Maybe more so here. — Um thank you. Uh you know because in lots of places in the west it's quite unforgiving. — Yeah. — Right. The dayto-day experience of most — politicians is hard. Right. because of things like social media and the criticism and — things like that. It's very it can be very rewarding and fulfilling. Of course it can be. But for you know it's not every day it's you know like a sunshine and rainbows. — Um it comes back to what I wrote about in my Stanford business school essay and in fact I did write about this is the solution is education. So here's what I mean. ethic. you know when you think of a society and how it progresses there many different ways but you want to make sure that you the society that you live in the the government of the land of the nation provides sufficient security so that the basic needs are met right now I know that isn't always easy but that's sort of the focus And then you think well okay then how can we progress as a society and to me the answer is education because education in my mind is one of the things that allows equality of opportunity to emerge — um — in a way has that been solved for because education has gotten democratized with internet and AI and all of that like I never went to college — I can choose to pick a book I like to read and read it — yeah but that's because you're fundamentally curious So I define education more broadly, — right? — But Nico's point is right and I was talking about it the summit. — It's one of the to me one of the incredible things that AI can do. It isn't just about raising the ceiling. It can lift the floor for humanity. And the most obvious ways it can do that are democratizing access to healthcare and education. Right? where you've got now it is possible that before too long every single child will be able to have the best possible teacher. — That's the job of philanthropy of government of uh organi different organizations to enable those outcomes. Right? So yes, any child who lives in a certain society should have access to what I think is a broad sense of education. Of course, that's letters and numbers, but it's also curiosity. It's problem thinking skills because when you are when you have that in your toolkit that's when you you create entrepreneurs, you create um innovation, wealth in so many different ways and then the tax is kind of the next step. But I think how do we first create that equality of opportunity so that more people are able to create that wealth in the first place. — But even with education — barring the risk capital if — asset prices continue to inflate at the pace that they are it'll be very hard for the ine equality to come down. I met this interesting guy Michael Milin.
Segment 30 (145:00 - 150:00)
— Yeah. — He spent a lot of money and time coming up with this plan where he wants to give every child who's born a certain amount of — Exactly. So that's what I was just going to say. — Equity in the beginning — trying I mean look this is your old life right? Um but trying to give more people a stake in the system, a financial stake is a good thing. I think even the US is considering — the US is going down the street. — Michael doing something around — Michael Dell has helped part fund some of it and it's actually what some of the work that motivates our charity in the UK that we've set up the Richmond project which is around numeracy is because if — if people have better stronger number skills then they can be more financially literate and which the research from Stanford actually tells us some of these foundational skills you need to understand are inflation and compounding. Mhm. — They are two fundamental things that lots of people do not understand and if they don't that inequality will widen because if you understand those things — you're smarter about — then you recognize that inflation erodess the purchasing power and comp if you understand the power of compound interest or compounding in general right and you understand that when you're young — right those two things of course to up to this point you need to have had a good education to have a decent job but you need to then think with your I need to save, right? There is an element of saving. This is how I should save. This is why I need to save that compounds over time. Like that's what we need to do more of otherwise that gap will keep growing. — Maybe I should take education back and say learning — being curious being — Yeah. How do you teach someone to be curious though? — Yeah, it's I have to think about that. — We uh Yeah. Milkin Michael Milin had this interesting thought that if you start somebody off with say I don't know $1,000 in a S&P index fund like ETF — psychologically them knowing that they have something to lose — psychologically changes behavior significantly more than the cost of the thousand — I I think there's probably something to that and that's our way of contributing to that is — is through giving people the financial literacy, — the confidence they need with — literacy with numbers — numbers and therefore financial literacy so they know what to do with it, right? And even if not everyone is going to be able to be given the thousands, right? So either you need the people who are able to save to recognize they should save, how to save, that it's worth their while saving. Um so I look I'm a I'm a big believer in that. I your point is interesting on curiosity because we um we talk about that uh a lot. Um and I actually think — they're slightly different things because Ash is very big on just being curious for the sake of being curious and trying to instill that in the kids. — Learning for the sake of — learning. I'm a little bit more learn for a purpose bit practical applied. But I I've come to realize that I think one of the you know one of the most kind of compounding skills that you can develop is exactly this. It's I do we call it learnability which is a little bit different from your curiosity but they're linked and I've just think about my own career you know it's traverse finance government technology policy the compounding skill — is being able to learn new things and I think that is only going to be more relevant in this new world. So if I like when I talk to young people now and I say like just learn how to learn that — and that to me is education. So it's not about a degree. It's not — fix. Exactly. It's not about like an institutional — Maybe the solution lies in what you said earlier. You brought up Greek philosophy. — Yeah. — Maybe AI will solve this problem as well because in times of abundance we go back to — like the Greeks did in their time, philosophy and anthropology. — It was an entire profession to sit and think about life. — And that's to me is what makes us more human. — Yeah. Maybe AI and productivity gains and abundance will get us to that point where everybody has more than enough. — Yeah. — So then we can sit and think about that. — Yeah. It's what was said in that uh when you and Elon had that conversation. Yeah. — It's a very utopian way of the world [clears throat] and until we get to that point — Yeah. Sure. — I think people's careers will — keep changing. So this ability to keep learning new things I think is a underestimated very powerful — quality to have. — How do you see AI in your lives? What do you use it for? — Oh, like the biggest use case. — Biggest use case I mean for me is research, right? Thinking about researching things that — likely Claude because you're
Segment 31 (150:00 - 155:00)
— Exactly. So I the Claude is what I use the most. Um and — have you given Claude all the connectors access and allow — I'm starting to do that now. So I'm start I haven't yet I've got this course that I'm about to do uh to start using it for I want with Excel. — I've given it a lot of access and now I'm worried because I don't even go to my email inbox anymore because I've given it access to my — all my emails and chat and all of that. So I ask it, are there any important emails that I miss today? — And it saves me the time to scroll — to scroll through. Yeah, — that's scary. — It knows every word of every email. — So what I'm we've just developing in the office is we to so it has access to well actually and co-pilot. So we've just got co-pilot as well. So because I want co-pilot to be able to in our share in our office sharepoint one drive whatever. Yeah. One drive. Um to be able to it needs to know what we've done and what we've got so that it can build on it. Yeah. Right. So that for us is quite important. So just getting that co-pilot integration where it can go into the folder and I can say look here are all these things do X. — Um that is what we're doing next. I've never learned how to code. — So on my — but now you don't need to. — No. Well now that's why I need to learn how to vibe code. Yeah. Right. So, I've got a video course that I'm about to start. — Can I tell you from somebody who went through it recently? I don't know anything about coding or programming. I hired this guy recently who spends an hour or two with me every day. — Yeah. — And we were having these conversations and we started with Claude Bot. — Yeah. Uh so this is a little bit uh now it's called open claw but — this is a little I don't know scary because you kind of like host it on a tiny — on this Mac mini right? — Yeah. And you give it access to everything. that — but the thing I realized about prompting is even on even when you use cloud code for the first time like how specific you are while you prompt is a skill set in itself which I don't have — so somebody said it really well I was watching the interview of the guy who built claude bought a open claw now he said it's like playing the piano you can't expect somebody to sit in front of the piano and prompt for the very first time or give up when you try to play for the very first time and not try again. — You need like a few lessons, — but it's not too many. I've done like maybe a month of lessons. That's about it. It feels like there is that point where you cross that line where you start to feel more comfortable with it. But I don't think it's week one. I think it's week three. — Yeah. No, I think it will take some time. — It'll go to week one soon. — Yeah. Well, that will be good. But I that to me seems like an important new skill to develop. — Yeah. — Right. And for now it is perfectly plausible that I should be able to create software that will do certain there's so many things that I do. — Yeah. — And I'm starting to figure out but I need someone to help me understand how do I think about all the things I do which ones will lend themselves to being — Yeah. — basically dealt with and then learn how to get build the thing to do it. Um, so that is my next thing to do. But the thing actually I mean you do your thing as well. But I I'm we go back to education. That is the thing that I find it incredibly helpful about. — Transformative. — It's transformative to be able to teach our kids. I'm not a good She's an excellent teacher. — teacher. It's one thing to know something. It's a different thing to be able to explain it and teach others. — Party. Yeah. This but this is what I've always thought with schooling in college. I didn't go. So I mean it's natural that I take this perspective. — Yeah. — But when you don't go to a formal institution, you can pick what books you want to read. — Yeah. — Like structure takes that away. And I feel like in many ways it's a disadvantage. — Which is a disadvantage? going to a structured institution and being told what to read and how — it also depends on the personality I think a little bit but it's but now I we're getting — how self motivated — not I wasn't even talking about motivation as much as like even between us you like more structure I like less — yeah you respond better — so I respond better when I don't have as many guard rails right — but if the entire education system is evolving to be a place where you come in you interact with peers is but actually it's self-directed learning guided by AI. — Yeah. — Then there's a different way to learn and it probably — would have suited you and been better that way. Right. — But helping our kids with learning is so I was so like I
Segment 32 (155:00 - 160:00)
— that's what I did the other week — and when you were away and uh — Oh yes. — Yeah. And I but I've done that increasingly where I haven't they've got they had physics our daughter had physics tests a couple of weeks ago. — I haven't done any physics since I was 16 and I didn't know off top of my head — what she was doing. But I pop the paper into Claude. — It comes back with a question by question explanatory guide so I can then — help her. um and then created a revision booklet at the end that I could then use the next day to help her prep for the test. If that wasn't there, it would have been a right pain to try and do. So I and I saw that and then I see them in we see our kids, we've encouraged them to use it, but we've tried to say to them and supervise it. We say, "Look, it's not it's got to help you think. It can't do the thinking for you. They can explain things to you so you learn — but you need to have done the thinking like so especially when they're young. — So like one discipline I have is I never use AI to write. — Yeah. — Nope. And it's oldfashioned. I get it. — On pen and paper. — No. Meaning. — I type. Yeah. But I just can't do that. it. — And what do you write about now? whatever I'm writing about, you know, I currently I'm involved in um arts and culture and doing some storytelling around um cultural institutions in the UK. I'm doing some work around um fashion, entrepreneurship and business. Um I use Google for research. — Yeah. But I'll tell you where I use I'm starting to think with AI. But I don't use Claude or anyone else to help me write, right? Like the thesis of any argument I write myself. — Um even the speeches etc. I write them all out. Um but what I've been fascinated is again as someone who's on the outside, can AI be creative? — And what then is even creativity? Right? uh for a long time in the early days of this whole uh evolution of AI people would say well AI can uh code faster than you solve mathematic problems etc but it can't be creative and so I'm I've been amazed how I can have philosophical discussions with Claude and it will come up with the most creative thoughtful answers. I mean amazing. — What is creative in your view? Is it contrarian behavior that's creative? — No. Putting multiple thoughts together. — Right. — Putting not just giving me a list of facts or kind of obvious answers, — but pulling connecting the dots, — right? pulling not facts but also even emotion. — I would in a way in the new world define creativity by contrarian behavior more so than yesterday because — a lot of these models are trained on data which always projects a certain path. — Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. because they're trained on a stock of — knowledge and information. Yeah. This is the I guess the how will they be able to come up with something new. — Yeah. — You used to manage money before — Yeah. I used to be investing — as a fund manager. I'm guessing you researched a whole bunch of industries and stocks. Yeah. — After becoming a politician, did you realize there's a information arbitrage that is still at play that makes one fund manager better than another? What did you believe as a fund manager that you became a politician and got access to everything and you were like this is stupid? Uh I you know I didn't um I didn't ever think about it like that. The similarity I found between politics and fund management was this concept of the noise of the market. So the investing I did was always fundamental long-term investing like Warren Buffett and he has this you know whole mantra about ignoring the short-term noise of the market and quarterly earnings. — He hasn't done very well in the last decade I would like to say. — I haven't seen the numbers for a while but over his career it's a pretty incredible track. I think he did well when information arbitrage was more at play when
Segment 33 (160:00 - 165:00)
— I saw that article. I saw someone had done that analysis. I haven't gone into it in detail. I mean I always found him but his letters his approach investing. I'm a total devote and disciple of I've been to um you know Omaha for the uh for the shareholder meeting etc. And um uh so I but the similarity was there is that you have the politics has got lots of the day-to-day noise media, social media, this that and the other and I was tried to helpful reminder from your investing days to focus on the long-term fundamentals of what you're doing. I found that quite a helpful analogy on the information arbitrage. I didn't I you know I don't know if that's you know I didn't necessarily see that. I mean I you know it wasn't as if no I mean clearly if you're involved in making decisions in government you have access to information which is why you clearly should not be trading right I mean that should be illegal and is illegal um but beyond that I'm not sure I saw because largely what's happening in the political process is [snorts] it's commented on it's in the news there's a million people talking about it so it's perfectly possible for people to figure out the dynamics of a policy as it's going through parliament or something like that. — Um that was my general sense of it. Um but the other thing um from uh I the investing side of it is I mean this thing about long run and short run and I thought that was because you know you're trying because I what gave us or my I hope my type of investing and advantage was that focus on the long term right so you could and if you had capital that allowed you take a longterm view — you know you could ignore the short-term volatility of things confident that over time the fundamentals and the valuation would align that was interesting because it you saw what happened in the financial crisis and it I look and obviously you try and do the right thing in the long term but really the short term someone put it well they said that you know the long term is really just a succession of short terms that you either survived or were not kicked out of — um and actually I realized over time there isn't at least in polic politics, maybe it's more broadly in business, there's less of a kind of conflict between the short-term and the long term. They're really just they all fit into what kind of a nested time frame. And I think as long as your short-term actions need to be consistent with your long-term direction is what you want. It's not that you can't do things in the short term. It's just that your, you know, your weekly rhythm has to align with your one-year plan, which aligns with your three-year strategy, with your fiveyear vision. Those things have to be consistent and have a consistency and a connection to them. The problem is when you have this tension between short-term and long-term is when there the short-term goal or short-term thing you're doing is misaligned with the long-term direction. But it's wrong to ignore the short term. And I the other analogy is you need to do the minimum to survive in the short term so that you can be around to benefit in the long term. Yeah. So in the financial sense, if you don't have the liquidity in the short term, then you might be right in the long term, but you'll be — out of business, right? And so, so in that financial sense, right, if you're levered or you don't have capital that is secure in politics, you need to, you know, said you need to do enough in the short term to earn the right to be there over time. So you can't just kind of head in the sand say, "Look, this will all work out in five years. Come and see me then. " you need to be delivering enough things in the short term that are consistent with the long run goal to kind of allow you to survive to make that long run argument. So I think in both cases you have to recognize the kind of connection between the short term and the long term. You can't exclude the short term and just say I'm focused on the long term. — You guys like chocolate? — Yes. — Okay. — I mean I told you can always count on Rishi to eat. Yeah, I'm very full, but I will always make a bit of space for some chocolate. — Uh, will you ask Har chocolate bowling? Okay, last part of today. — Yeah, — I'm going to ask you both one question to finish it off. — I don't know what the time is. What is the time? — How are we doing? — Oh gosh, 10:00. — Oh wow, — we've done well. — Yeah, it's been a few hours. — Yes. — Okay, last part of today. One question to both of you to Rishi. — If you had to today after knowing — Okay, let me preface this question by saying we spoke about you coming into the position of prime minister. — How was it to lose that position?
Segment 34 (165:00 - 170:00)
— What did you learn from it? — Same question for both or — different. Yeah. Okay. — What's your question for her? — Okay. Let me do Axita first and we'll come back to — Yeah. No. Yeah. Fine. — Okay. Somebody said in the end civilizations perish — because they listen to the politicians a lot more than they listen to their poets. — Okay. Shall I go? You have time. — So, are you saying do I agree or disagree with Shall I do you want me to go? I do mine. Go. Um, so we've talked about failure a couple of times through this. You know, failure in that way — is very hard. — Yeah. — Right. When you lose an election, I mean, it's I you know, it's hard because it is public. — I mean, it's extremely public. Mhm. — It comes at the end of a very grueling, intense period of a campaign which is pretty unforgiving and because it's public, you're failing in front of your friends and your family and you have a lot of responsibility for the other members of your party who as a result of that loss are no longer MPs. So their livelihoods, their job, the thing that gives them purpose is gone. And in many cases that is not to do with the personal job that they have done. — Thank you. — Chocolate dinner. — Don't have that. That's just like a protein thing which is pretend to be healthy. — That's your breakfast. — We need chocolate. — Okay. Here we go. um you know so it you know it is hard — and it's yeah I'd be lying if I didn't say it wasn't hard um and it takes some time uh you know take some time to recover from but then you know what you know for me you know what got me through that period including that bit was just remembering ing why I did it. — Mhm. — And you know that weekend when we talked about it just before I became prime minister, that situation was very tough. Inflation was at a 10-year high. Um the my party was 36 points behind in the polls. There just been this leadership uh thing. Um, and I if you were just motivated by ambition and about winning and losing and position, then you would never have taken the job in the first place, right? I did the job because I felt at that moment it was my duty — because I was better placed to or I was well placed to make a difference for the country at a difficult time. And that's what we talked about that weekend. That's why I did it. knowing that it was going to be very tough. — And when that finality of the tough moment came, it wasn't that it was any, you know, — any easier in that. — It wasn't any easier, but you know, with the time you were able to remember why you did it and — and how you did it — and to be able to look yourself in the mirror and say, "Look, I you know, that was my dharma and that was my job. That was my duty to do this, to do it to the best of my ability and to focus on that. " And as the Gita says, you know, you don't enjoy the fruits and the outcomes. You focus on doing your duty. And that is what ultimately gave me the strength to go through it and the strength to cope with the failure after it. Um and then in the fullness of time, we talked about this as well. It's important to draw the right stories from one's failure if you are going to grow from them because life is full of ups and downs in all walks of life. And you you've got to use the failures and the setbacks to grow. So, and actually has helped me with this over time is is looking back on that overall period and making sure that I'm able to take away the things that I need to learn from it and not the whole thing, treat it as if I was some victim and just be filled with self-pity because if that's how you feel, you won't — take any good lessons from it and you won't grow as an individual. Um, so that to me is how I got through is how it felt, which was not easy for all those reasons, how I dealt with it, and then hopefully
Segment 35 (170:00 - 175:00)
how you can turn it into something that actually helps you in life rather than holds you back. — Is it easy to go going back to be a corporate after all of this? — Uh, still an MP. Well, I'm still in Parliament and so that is my anchor and my foundation. It's where I get my fulfillment from week in week out. It's actually it's enjoyable, you know, it's enjoyable being in parliament and not being, you know, the person at the dispatch box having to deal with the problem sometimes. It's actually nice to be able to ask the question. I'm enjoying that um as well. — And in the future, is that what you will pursue? Politics? — Yeah. I you know as we talked about earlier right the future who knows which direction it's going to take us in — near future. Yes. — I mean the near future that's where I am. Yeah. I'm in Parliament and staying in parliament and you I've got we said hope for touch. We're 20 years ahead of me and so we and for the first time in a long time I don't have an immediate — thing that I'm gunning for. So we'll see where the future goes. But this goes back to the adaptability point we talked about. My own career is one where I've gone from finance and investing to politics and government. Now I'm spending more time in technology. This ability to adapt, to learn, to grow. That is the key trait, right? And I don't know what the next chapter is going to be. It could be back to one of these. It could be something completely different. Who knows? Yeah, — but you've just got to be able to keep learning and adapting and not just learning about new things but learning from your failures so that you can hopefully succeed to higher heights and on the next thing you do. — Be being curious about your failures. Well, that's the point is you I think it's important that the story that you tell yourself about why things didn't work is really important and it's easy not to be curious enough about it and to assume it I said you were the victim of circumstance or you can you know said you have to be more — balanced. — Yeah. You have to allow them. — You can't say it's all my fault but equally someone else's fault. — Right. Otherwise middle ground again. — Yeah. The middle part. Yeah. — You have to uh you have to do that. So that is how I've um — Thank you. — Well done. — Before we go to Axa, — right? Okay. — There's a brand called Subco which this particular coffee bean is from Kerala but there's a bunch from Karnataka which I will send you. — They make you — just tell me the name I will get. — They make really good chocolates. — So and they this is coffee bean is it? — Yeah. Uh no cacao. Cacao bean. Okay. — That one has walnut in it. — That's walnut. — And this is really dark. If you like dark chocolate she prefers very dark. both lovely. — Um, so your question, — poets, politicians, we listen more to our politicians than our poets and it's a problem. — Yeah. So, uh, prior to Rishi doing his um, job at number 10, I would have probably said poets because this is how I used to how I have defined poets in the past. idealists, emotional, emotionally driven, um, people who can move with words. Words are very important to me. It's part of, I would say, it's how I've grown up, uh, through reading and writing and being moved by words and storytelling. — Indeed, they break the Stanford Business School class into poets and quants. — Really, — I was a quant, actually was a poet. — Yes. Um, so I would have said poets. — I'm not saying today I won't say poets. The answer is more nuanced today. — It also depends on how you define a politician, right? You know, you can take one definition as sort of people who say one thing do something else. People who are inherently obsessed with power. Um, sadly in some cases there's corruption involved. There's all these negative connotations. But I think and I know I'm married to Rishi and um I'm biased of course I agree with that. But I think there are people like you who can do it with a great deal of integrity and who can bring about that impact. um at scale and do it with integrity and I think those people need those people are needed in the political world and I am optimistic that we will find and there already are and there will be more people like that who will approach politics as their purpose who will be driven by passion for impact um and who will get their validation
Segment 36 (175:00 - 180:00)
because they can change people's lives for the better. Right? So, so I think today I would say both poets and politicians — that is a good encapsulation of our journey because we've gone — if you ask me is what we learned from each other right and — and actually we spoke well in the Stanford speech — you know when we first met Ash was very passionate about making a difference and saving the world — incredibly idealistic — and I think one of the things that you got — from me was actually understanding That's all very well having the idealism. — How do you channel that into outcome? — And actually it's through, as we were talking, how do you bring about change? The political process in government is it's not the only way, but it's the way to do it at the biggest scale. Um, and if you'd asked me, funnily enough, I have probably moved in the other direction over time. All the things we've been talking about when we were talking about, you know, what classes you should take at Stanford and how I've changed my approach over time. I'd like I think I need to become more poetic probably and it's a lesson I — I uh I think if I the thing that I don't do enough of — which I wish I did and over time is not reading poetry but reading fiction. So I'm someone who just people like me I think in general but I read just non-fiction almost I'm always reading for a purpose you know some how do I get better at X how do I learn more about Y what can I take from this experience that I can then — storytelling for dummies — yeah right and and if I could force myself to read — I said not poetry probably but more fiction because I think actually if you spend most of your life doing what I do, which is reading for purpose, right? What's the actionable takeaway from what I'm reading, you know, about what to do and how to do it, you're probably less good at understanding the why. — And as Lux was talking about before, you're less good at understanding people. And what fiction gives you, it's not the actionable takeaway, but it's a much better understanding of people, of humanity, of — emotions and of purpose — and of purpose. And I and that it's not poetry, but — if I could have made myself read more fiction over time, that would have been — a good thing. — And if I may say, this is the first time I have ever interviewed a couple. — Oh, wow. — And the loveest couple that Oh, you're very sweet. — No, that's very kind of you. But we've never done an interview this long ever — and together. — Well, certainly not together. — Leave a line and all that. I still — It didn't feel like an interview though, right? — No, not an interview actually. I say a conversation, — but more than a conversation kind of a rumination. No. [clears throat] — Yeah. — And so, — yeah, we've never done anything. — We've actually like I'm really intrigued by this point that we all ca arrived at through that question around how do you get a 28-year-old who is to get into politics when they're also rightly looking for both purpose and validation. — Yeah. — And I was I think as you said so beautifully that if you can get someone of that age to engage with just one policy that can impact so many people at such a young age. Like what is more motivating than that, right? Um — but I can tell — and I learned that Rishi likes poetry. So next birthday gift taken care of. — I said fiction, not po. Let's not go too far like one step at a time. — But thank you guys for doing this. This was — this has been great. This has been awesome. — And great food as well. — I'm amazed that we we kept eating and talking. — Yeah. Try this one as well. This one is the dark one. — Okay. Next time you're both in Bangalore, I think let's do something. — Yeah. We'll be there. We'll be — Next time we're in Bombay, we'd love to come and see Fountain. — Yeah%. We talk about that separately. I know that sounds super exciting. — It's a three-month course which is beginning next month. So, I'd love for you guys to come take a couple of lectures if you guys have. — Yeah. — And if you need — They're all really bright fit kids and strangely enough, — so many of them are from Stanford and Yale and Wharton. A lot of them have given up college and come back for this. — All right. Oh, okay. So, they're still at they're enrolled still, right? I'm — They're taking a quarter off or semester off. — That's so exciting. — And do you know what I have always fought for the consumer sector because fundamentally I think you and I think are motivated by the same things within the business space which is consumer behavior, — right? Why how do people behave? Why do they behave the way they do? thereby what kind of actions do they take what are the mark market dynamics
Segment 37 (180:00 - 182:00)
that influence these actions um and I've always said yes you know unlike B2B companies unlike SAS companies unlike potentially companies in the AI uh deep tech space you don't see outcomes quickly you don't um get those same kinds of financial validation quickly but If you stick at it, some of these companies dramatically change people's lives for the better. — Yeah. — Um and I think it's fascinating. — How often are you going to plan on doing it, do you think? Is it once a year or — I think once a year. Yeah. It'd be tough to do more. I think once a year — cuz it is quite intense, right? — It's 20 companies that get created. So once a year is good enough. — Yeah. And it's it's quite three months like kind of one cohort a year. And do you have one person leading it and then you have guest lectures coming in or — uh there's a bunch of people leading it. Have you heard of this man called Kishor Vani? Yes. — Yeah. So he's leading it. You know Ronnie Screw. — Yes, I know of him. Yeah. — Yeah. They're all living there. Like I came back early today to do this. But they're all still there. — Wow. — Having a good time. — I don't know about good time. Last night was — 3:00 a. m. and they needed to really make a decision on some candidate. So, — there were like these young kids being woken up at 2:00 a. m. — It's really like pushing them beyond — the normal, — but I'm sure in time they will appreciate that — in time. In time — when they're, you know, when they're listing, ringing the bell, and you know, it will all have been worthwhile. I mean for a separate conversation, Nichl, but one of the things I'm thinking about is um cuz I'm a trustee of the VNA Museum in Lond in London and the VNA is their um focus is on creativity. They're called the Museum of Creativity. — And so what we're thinking is how do we how can museums add value to the creative economy? — Yeah. not just come in and see some old things and marvel, but how can museums add active value and work with the creative economy? Um, so it'd be fascinating to have a conversation. Yeah. — Around that at some point.
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