Book Club: Goodbye Things | Liz Gets Loaded | Ep 593

Hi everyone, welcome to book club episode. Today I am talking with Liz from Liz Gets Loaded about the book Say Goodbye to Things by Fumio Sasaki. I wanted to talk to Liz because I'll be honest, I think we have similar aspirations around minimizing and similar hesitations. Or at least I feel confident that like me, she's thought about this a lot. I know Liz has taken some serious action around wanting to live a more streamlined life and maybe I thought she would spur me into action as well. I have to say I'm really excited to have this conversation about the role of things in our lives. I remember talking to Brad many episodes back about his minimalist apartment and he said something like, "I could replace everything on Amazon in 30 minutes. Like everything in his apartment. " And I found that so impressive and so unsettling. And I couldn't even really articulate why. And I think that's because our relationship with things are complicated, just like our relationships with other people. And this book gets into that at least a little. And Liz and I are going to get into that even more. Welcome, Liz. And welcome to Choose Fi. — Ginger. I'm so excited to talk to you. I couldn't sleep last night. I was like, "Tomorrow's ginger die. " — Well, we're so happy to have you. We know that everybody read this book and everybody knows everything about the book, but just in case. — I confess I have shown up to a book club meeting not having completed or started the book. Not today. Today I definitely have read this book three or four times. But have you I mean you you've shown up to like the girls night just for the wine and chatting, right? I'm the person who always assumes that everyone has read the book and that never turns out to be true. So that's like a thing that I need to learn that like, — oh Ginger, people don't want to do homework. — My [clears throat] dad and I were in college at the same time, which is kind of fun. He was a freshman when I was a junior and he turned to me one day and said, "Do you know people show up to class without having done the reading? " And I was like, "What? No way. No, — couldn't be me. — Okay, so let's give a brief kind of overview about what this book is about. — And actually, let's start with a definition because I think people have really different definitions of like minimalism or what it means to be a minimalist. I pulled something from him from the author where he went into this a little and then I want to know if you kind of agree if that's kind of where you come from as well. So he says, "My feeling is that minimalists are people who know what's truly necessary for them versus what they may want for the sake of appearance and they're not afraid to cut down on everything in this second category. " And then he says, and I think this part is really important, reducing the number of possessions that you have is not a goal unto itself. It's an attempt to reduce the things that aren't essential so we can appreciate the things that are really precious to us. — I like that definition. That's funny. you paused in the middle and I almost jumped in to say, "But don't forget about how he said it's not the goal in and of itself. " — Yeah. — Because I really like his framing about how minimalism is a it's a path. It's a means to an end. — Not having things on its own isn't the goal. It's the way you feel. It's the way it changes your life. — Uhhuh. And so I kind of hinted that you had taken some action around this. And the thing I know just from listening to your podcast is that you downsized quite significantly, right? Like you went from a big house to a apartment, tiny apartment. — We Yeah, you got that right. Like a lot of people in early pandemic days, we upsized significantly. We, the two of us had always lived in pretty small homes, but we bought this big, beautiful house with this big, beautiful yard, and we both had our own home office, and we had a home gym and a guest room and a three-car garage and more space than what we knew what to do with, which, to be fair, was exactly the right choice in early pandemic days when we were spending all of our time at home and it was great for I don't know, four or five year, however long. And then I just started to get itchy. And I thought, well, what if we just try, it started as a one-mon experiment. I said, let's try moving into a one-bedroom apartment for a month and then see how it feels. — Mhm. — And it felt great. It was so good. — Oh. And so was that kind of the impetus is like, let's have more of this. This changes how I feel so much. It was definitely a feelings and emotionbased decision because it wasn't financial. We could, you know, we could easily afford either home. Although I will be

excited not to be paying our — sizable mortgage once we sell that house. But — yeah, I think even after a week, we both just exhaled and went, "This feels exactly right. " Living in our little one-bedroom apartment, it feels like living in a hotel room in the best way. It's so easy to find things. Neither of us is saying, "Did you call the lawn guy? Did they come this week? " Neither of us is looking at a piece of the gutter. — That looks misshapen. And both of us going, I don't know what that means or even who to call. — No, — it just feels so much lighter. I've just noticed it's been almost a year since we did that and I think we both feel happier, lighter, more free time, just more relaxed. Um, one reason I thought you would be so interesting to talk to about this is that you are kind of in this interesting in between space where you haven't sold your house. I'm thinking that your house is still full of your things. Is that true or are you completely moved out? — That's medium true. — It's so Okay. It's interesting you said that because just last week we went on vacation and we went to Mexico and it was the first time in months that I thought to myself, oh, there's something at the house that I need because I didn't have any swimsuit coverups and I knew they weren't here cuz our closet here is small and I can see all of my clothing at the same time. I knew I hadn't gotten rid of them and so I had to go over and sort of dig through some bags of clothes that were that are in the basement. I pulled out this bag when I found my swimsuit cover-ups, which is great and they were they're very old and I think they're very cute and I was very happy to have them. But I was going through this bag of clothes and I thought, "Oh, I haven't seen this sweater in a long time. " Oh, I haven't worn this dress in a long time. And I kind of had this urge of, "Okay, what else am I going to grab here? " And then I looked at it and I thought, — I mean, I haven't even set eyes on any of this in at least nine months. — I definitely don't need this. All of this can go. It's totally fine. Oh, done. You don't you didn't even need to read the book. You're just like ready to eject all of these things. — Maybe because I had recently reread it and I knew I was going to have to come on the podcast there. I good like positive social peer pressure maybe. But we got rid of a lot of things. There's still things at our house. It's essentially we're renting it furnished at a very good deal to sort of a family and friends kind of thing. So, there's someone living there. They're not really covering the mortgage. And we didn't get rid of everything. The things I need to go get rid of before we put it on the market, there are a few things that I am feeling emotional about. The number one thing though is my Pelaton rower. I just love it. — That's not what I thought you were going to say. — Really? — What did you think I was going to say? — I thought you were going to say, you know, my grandma's wedding ring or whatever. Well, that's that I'm wearing like that's very small that came with us already. — I think you were saying the number one thing we need to get rid of and I was interpreting it as the hardest thing that we have to still get rid of. — That is the hardest. The hardest part was we had this whole home gym. I loved having home gym. — Yeah. — We have a Pelaton rower and we have a treadmill and we have all these weights and a Pelaton bike and a pull-up bar and there's not room for any of it here. There's just I have some dumbbells in the closet. And now if I want to work out, I roll out my mat in the closet and I work out in the closet and it's very different than my home gym that had a, you know, a sliding glass door out to the backyard and I just really miss my rower. But I will tell you, this is the silly thing. You know, none of us are perfect at this because I really can't bring myself to get rid of this rower. I just love rowing so much. Also, I hurt my back like a year ago. I can't even use it anymore. I cannot row. it is no longer good for my body. It's very human, I think, for me to think, but what if I feel better in a few months and I wish I still had it? — I know. I want to talk about what this author would say about this, but I feel like we're getting ahead of ourselves. So, let's — Oh, yeah. You're right. — Let's back up. — Let's acknowledge that, hey, you are in an interesting place with objects in your life right now. I am not in as interesting of a place. I am in this boring place where I am like doing the same having these same conversations with myself over and over again. It's probably not coincidental that his definition where he talks about, oh, it's about honoring the things that are precious to us, which kind of hearkens to the Marie Condo, what was her phrase? Sparks joy, right? — Did you do the Marie Condo method when that came out? Because I did. I did it. It was awesome. — Did you love it? — I did love it. Like at that time in my life, I didn't have a child, so I could put these incredible amount of hours. It took me so long to like do this thing where oh, I'm gathering every single piece of clothing from different rooms. And I did all of that. — You really, you followed the method. Okay. — I did it. I did the method. — I just read the book and didn't do anything. — But then like the promise of the book is like and then once you do this, you never have to tidy again. — Oh, right. It's like you've done it and that did not work out for me, right? So, I'm like very behind this idea. So much so that I will like make great effort. — Yes. I just want to be surrounded by the things that are precious to me. And yet the reality of my life is that over the past decade, it's like more and more things come in and I always feel like we have too much stuff. And I think that's for kind of a lot of reasons. So, I did appreciate that he kind of talked about what some of those different reasons were. We're getting off topic again. We're — I know we were going to summarize the book. tell you in case you didn't I don't know if you remember 20 minutes ago we mentioned that maybe you didn't read the book. — Yeah. I don't know if we mentioned that there's a book. — Liz, Summarize the book. — It's called Goodbye Things. It's about a Japanese man. I believe he was in his mid-30s when he wrote this book about 10 years ago. He radically downsizes his own possessions and I would say the book is part memoir, part howto guide slhelp. Great, great summary, Liz. Yeah. So, he talks a little bit about like his journey of massively downsizing. And if you get the actual uh paper book, there are some crazy pictures. Oh, his apartment looks Yeah, — his apartment looks like someone needs to move into it. But it is kind of uh it is inspiring in a way to like see

something so stark and so extreme. And so he talks about how he got to that extreme place, what it has done for him sort of personally, but then he also lays out a bunch of like, hey, here are 55 tips and here's 25 more tips and here's some more tips about ways you can think about it or things that you can do. — Yeah, it's a very readable book. I've reread it a few times. I tend to sometimes just pop the audio book in my AirPods if I'm trying to go through a closet or something for some good inspiration. It opens with a few stories about his own life and how things weren't going well for him and how he was feeling. I One of the things I actually love about this book, cuz of course there's a zillion books about minimalism and they're all wonderful, but one of the reasons I really like this one — is it's not preachy. It's not condescending. He's like, "I was in a bad place and I owned all the stuff that I only owned to impress other people and then I got rid of it and here's how I felt. " — And I love at the beginning how he acknowledges that we are all human and we all have an urge to impress other people and that urge isn't going to go away because we're human. I think there's a lot of advice shared in this space sometimes that kind of boils down very simply to just stop caring about what other people think. I think that's bad advice because it's impossible. And I think he does a good job of acknowledging, hey, here are all our human tendencies and here's choices you can make to work around them and get yourself to a better place rather than just try not wanting your things. Try not caring what other people think about you. Yeah, I noticed that theme really hitting hard as well. And I also kind of had a problem with it because I thought and maybe I'm deliluding myself, but I was like that is not the main driver for me in terms of like the things in my house. And so I get that he makes a really strong case for like how much that was influencing what he was bringing into his house. But I guess that's kind of what I was getting back to of like, oh, this is so multiaceted. There are so many reasons that these things come into our lives and then they are hard to get rid of and it's not because of what I think Liz is going to think of me if I get rid of it. — Right. — Yeah. I'm not looking at you right now going, "Oh, interesting clock choice behind you. " Like, but I agree. I actually one of my strongest held maybe hot takes in the personal finance space is I think telling people not to own things to impress other people is kind of bad advice because most of us don't do it consciously — or we have other reasons. Most of us don't buy a car and go, "Oh, I bought this car cuz I want to impress my neighbors. " If you ask almost anyone, they'll say, "I bought this car because it's safe or reliable or it has this feature I wanted or it was a good deal or whatever it is. " But I think he has to almost lay that foundation in the book to then make the connection of the person that you're trying to impress might be yourself. — Yeah. — You might have a bunch of camera equipment because you identify as a photographer. You might have a bunch of recording equipment because you always meant to start that podcast and then you never did and you have a hard time getting rid of it because you think you're not ready to let go of that part of your identity. Mhm. [clears throat] — The beginning of the book is a little bit more philosophical, about his story. It's incredibly economical. After that, he goes into 55, is it 55 rules and then another extra like 15? — Just a bunch of — advanced rules, something like that. I don't know. But they're very short. Like he'll say something like, — "If you lost it, would you replace it? " And then he's got maybe three more sentences. It's like, "Look around your house. If you see something, if you lost it, would you replace it? If not, get rid of it. And then that's the end of that — section. [clears throat] — Let's go ahead and jump into some of those, the ones that we really resonated with or that maybe we were able to take action on and some of those that maybe we didn't agree with so much or were a little bit more complicated. So, you saying that made me think of the one about would I buy this again? On the surface, it seems like, well, this is so obvious. If you wouldn't buy it again, then this is a thing that you should get rid of. But I think that this is where it kind of bumps up against some of the ideas in the personal finance world about like frugality, right? And not wasting things or even like I don't know if this exactly lines up, but okay. One thing I'm thinking of is right now I'm kind of having a problem with some of the art in my house. — Why? — Because I'm sick of looking at it. Not because there's anything wrong with it. And so, would I buy it again today? No. I want something new and different to look at, but I also don't really want to feed that part of myself — that's like, "Oh, I need something new. I need to be looking at something new. " So your minimalism decluttering brain is sort of bumping up against your no new things anti-acquiring new things sort of materialism brain. — Yeah. — What do you think his take would be on that situation? I think him personally would say get rid of the art, don't even get new art. You only need white walls. — Yeah, totally. That is his perspective, right? because he's saying, well, the goal here and what he's talking about with the tatsas is like get rid of everything that isn't like useful to you. And so maybe in that way, maybe art is a bad example, but I felt like I could think of other things too that hey, I wouldn't buy it again, but it is useful and there's a part of me that can likes that about myself. like, oh, if I got this other thing that was five appliances in one, then that would be better. No, you know what I'm saying? I'm not sure it's a good enough rule for that. I actually kind of like the art example because I think I agree with what I think his take would be and that if you're looking at the art on the walls and you don't like it, you want to get that out of your house. Because he makes a great point that every time you look at it, you have some little thought of, oh, I don't like that. I don't want that here. I don't like it. I think he would probably say he personally I don't think would replace it. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't because you would get value out of it — if you put something new and beautiful in its place and you enjoy looking at it every day. — Okay, that ties in with one that I did find was really helpful and really made me laugh because again I'm having the same conversations with myself over and over again. But he said, "If you thought about getting rid of it for five times, — get rid of it. " And it made me think of this set of mugs that I have that I hate and I've thought I don't know 120 times. Can I get rid of these? I don't need more mugs. There's no reason. When I read that, I just laughed and then I went and put all the mugs in the Goodwill. — You did? — Mhm. Yeah. — How did you feel? I felt great because I felt I was being so silly and it took that reading that rule to sort of recognize what I was doing, right? This is such a waste of time — for me to be having this conversation. I'm never going to like these mugs. And so, not only do I release myself of the mugs, but thinking about the mugs. — Congratulations. — Thank you. That was — I'm really happy that you mugs are a whole There are too many mugs in the world. We should just pause production on all mugs in my opinion.

— I will say that was a hard thing when we were choosing what to bring from our house into our small apartment because mugs specifically can be very sentimental. I actually That's so funny. Speaking of mugs, one of the funnest things I ended up doing at an old office, just a kind of fun get to know you like employee engagement kind of thing was they had everybody bring in their favorite mug. Or you could do it on Zoom, right? Hold up your favorite mug and just kind of say like what it is and where you got it. And no one's like, "Oh, I have these four white mugs. They're from Pottery Barn. " No, nobody in the world has four white mugs from Pottery Barn. you're like, "Oh, this is, you know, my mom got this for me on vacation or mine was it's a periodic table of elements and we bought it at a gift shop at a museum. " Mugs are hard. And so I just I'm That sounded sarcastic when I said congratulations, but being able to get rid of mugs is I think one of the hardest things to do. You're like a level 11 minizer, I think. — Okay, I'm going to share a very weird thing that is happening in my family. — Okay, — because you brought up the mugs. This is now called Choose a Mug Podcast. — Yeah. We'll get back to the book. My husband invented the one true mug idea. Okay. — Yes. Which is everyone in the family, he believes, and I'm on board with should have their one true mug. And he thinks no one needs more than one mug. So, everyone in the family pick your one true mug. — Oh. — And then, you know, you just rinse it out or whatever. And you just keep reusing that same mug. — Okay. I could get on board with this. Depending on how often you run the dishwasher. — Yeah. I mean, he's like handwashing, rinsing it out. In this way, it kind of makes it more of a chore, right? And this is like the whole thing that I'm talking about with my like struggle with minimalism. I love the idea of the one true mug. I have selected my one true mug. Everyone knows what mug is mine and what mug is is. and our child is still working on picking out his one true mug. But then the reality of my life is like — I don't want to do the work that requires me to constantly be washing a mug. You're like I would like to sometimes cuz here's why the dishwasher question is important in my mind because I don't mind rinsing if I'm going to have a cup of coffee and then I'm going to rinse it out maybe and have another cup of coffee. Listen, I'm [clears throat] not even going to rinse it out in between to be honest. But if I'm going to have a raspberry tea and then I'm going to have a coffee after that, in my mind, it needs to go through the dishwasher. — Ah, okay. So, you need a couple true mugs. — I will tell. Okay, we have I don't even want to say we've radically downsized. We have significantly downsized. There are two adults who live in this apartment and I think that we own four mugs. — Oh my gosh, you're already there. Well, see, I think your husband thinks we have two too many. — That's true. This is what I'm saying. It might be five. I can't remember. We have four or five. We probably had 20 before. — Okay. You are already a master. You've already won. — So, let's jump to one of the rules that you thought was helpful or that you think could be helpful to other people. — Yes. I love think of the store as your warehouse. Yes. — One of the ones. Yes. That was really enthusiastic. — Yes. — Hopefully more, but you go first. — And I'd heard it I've heard this I think he phrases it as think of the store as your warehouse. The thing I say often to myself when I'm standing in the aisle at the supermarket going, "Oh, should I buy two deodorants or one? " Is stored at the store. — Especially if you live in a populated area and it's not difficult to go to the store, right? This doesn't work for everybody. If you live whatever far away from the grocery store, then maybe you need to buy three, — but — stored at the store. I just love it. Why? And especially the way he puts it. Sorry. He's like, not only do they have a ton of what you need, but they take really good care of it. It's climate controlled. There's security. Like, it's fresh. The inventory is turning over. So we should back up a little bit for the people who are like what are you talking about? — His idea is like you are paying this rent to like store all of these items that [clears throat] you could think of Costco as storing them for you, right? They're still yours because you can access them whenever you want, — but you don't have to do this like warehouse upkeep. You can leave that to Costco. Yeah. I the way again I've reread this book a few times and I reread it again to prepare for recording this episode and that was one thing that really stuck out that I think has it before the way he says not only do they have it but they're taking really good care of it. It really made me chuckle. — Yeah, I was so enthusiastic about it because like you I have listened to this book on audio many times. Like the audio book is so soothing. — It is. And so this was one of the parts that I remember sticking out the first time I read the book just because like you said there's so many books on minimalism. There's so many different systems and like blah blah. So it's not that often that I I really have a true like reframe of like oh this is a really helpful way to think about storing things — right that access can be the way that I feel safe not having it in my home. One of the reasons I find this specific minimalism book so effective is because he really combines higher level philosophical thinking. You know, think about what your identity is. You know, say goodbye to tying your identity to your things, which I love. And then he also just gets very practical of you can just store it at the store. He says one of his lowhanging fruit rules, one of the first thing is just get rid of any duplicates. He says, "You can still cut if you only have one pair of scissors. You can still write if you only have one pen. " Amazing. Yes, you can. — Going from Oh, man. I think we do still have two pairs of scissors. Maybe it's only one. I'm not sure. — I kind of want to get up and go look, but I'm not going to. — Okay, how about this one? Notice that there isn't a single item you'll regret throwing away. That was seemed like a very controversial thing to say to me. — It's not true. — Yeah. Even he said he got rid of something and then he went and bought it again because he wished he still had it. — Oh, that's true. Yeah. — It was a foot massager or something. — Can you think of anything you have gotten rid of that you regretted getting rid of? — I'm sure. Oh, yeah. We we used to have travel scrabble and I went to look for travel scrabble the other day and I said, "Where's our travel scrabble? " And my partner was like, "You think we still have travel scrabble? You think with all the down we did travel scrabble made the cut? " — It did not. — Okay, Liz, I want you to go deeper because you could go buy Travel Scrabble. In fact, Target is storing it for you right now. — Is there something more even like irreplaceable — that you regret parting with? — There are It's a good question because I think that you can miss something without necessarily — I think it can be a mixed bag, right? Sometimes when I look back at photos, I'll look at a specific piece of clothing that I think I might wear again if I still had it or maybe just had a lot of sentimental value. Like I don't I wish I still had I remember this one dress that I had and I wore it to some significant life events and I don't still have it. It probably wouldn't still fit me if I did. But if I still had it, I would probably put it on a hanger and hang it in my closet because it had a lot of really good memories — attached to it. Do you — What do you think? Do you have example? Is that first of all, is that good enough or do you want me to hear like wrong again? — Wrong, Liz. Try harder. — No, no. Clothes was something that popped up in my mind. That was one thing when he said that because of the thing I was talking about before. Not because you are right, regret is not really the right word there, but things that I got rid of that if I had just not worn for a while, — right? When I kind of got sick of them, then I could have like enjoyed them again. And so that's kind of that frugal piece where it's like, oh, I don't want the thing driving me is like, oh, I'm sick of this and I want a new thing. And so I can see how some of those things that I had gotten rid of, I'm like, oh, that was cute. I wish I had held on to that. But the bigger one, it was so funny reading his thing about you won't regret anything you get rid of. And then he gave this example of the yearbook and I was like, "Oh yeah. " — Oh yeah. — First time I read this, I was inspired to get rid of my yearbook and now I regret it. — So he does give this as an example. He goes, "Even your yearbooks," he kind of uses it as even if you give away your yearbook, you're not going to regret it. And what he says is because if you want to look at your yearbook, you can just reach out to someone you went to school with and they'll be happy to show you theirs and you can have it will actually be this really nice moment of connecting. And I thought, well, that's nice if you live in Mayberry or something right down the street from everyone you went to school with, I guess. But I can't think of anybody who I could call up and go, can I look at her? I went to a lot of different schools, though, so maybe that's a different situation. I could think of one person and that's why I was inspired. I was like, "Yeah, I do know someone. She's never getting rid of her yearbook cuz she's more sentimental than I am. " I'm like, "So, if I need to, like, why would you need to look at your yearbook? " But I just thought if I need to, I do have access to one. And the other thing that was inspiring that is at the time we were trying to downsize because we were — okay — actually going to move and we didn't but like there was something more than just it would be fun to throw things away. And so now that I'm still in my big house, right? I'm like, "Oh, I do kind of wish that I had that. " And it's — I had room for that. Why did I get rid of that? — Yeah. — Do you regret it though? You wish that you still had it? I do regret it because what if I want to like look up the name of someone who I was in physics with? I don't know. I don't I can't even say why, but it's in that category of I can't get it back. — I can't go buy it. — I did have a good reason because we were trying to cut back, but that reason is no longer real. — I do think just saying point blank that you'll never get rid of something that you regret getting rid of is a pretty hot take. That's Come on, dude. — That has not been my experience. Sometimes I accidentally throw away a coupon I wanted. I mean, that happens to me, — right? And maybe the bigger point is maybe it is around that word regret and maybe that's a translation issue, right? Like maybe I do wish that I had held on to it and it's okay that I didn't, you know, — and maybe that's his bigger point. It's like you'll be okay no matter what thing you get rid of. That's a probably if you slightly reward that, you'll never get rid of anything that you actually needed. — Yeah. — One of the examples he gives is he said he got rid of his bank book, which I wasn't 100% sure. Do you think he just meant his check

register? — I think it's a different thing in Japan. — Okay. — It was some kind of documentation related to his bank. And he said he just threw it. This made me laugh because he goes, "I threw it away. " And then about 10 minutes later, I Googled, "What happens if I don't have my book and then he went into the bank and the teller was appropriately shocked at what he had done. " But he made a point. He said, — "Surely people lose this. Surely people lose everything in a fire and somehow they still manage. " So I think that sometimes about documents like, "Oh, do I need to keep this original copy of my birth certificate or my whatever? " And I always think, well, truly people lose this and there's got to be some kind of process for them, — right? Yeah. You still get to be in our society even if you don't get shunned if you lose your checkbook. Thank goodness. [gasps] I loved all the 55 or 70 or however many they were having. them all. — I love I mean I think it's just a really I I'm not saying I loved them all, but I think it was a really effective way to structure — to structure the book. — Yeah. — Okay. Here's another one I want to talk about. — Okay. — Although, now that I know you live in your tidy little apartment, I bet this isn't an issue for you. But this is that thing that like bumps up against the frugal nature thing — where he says, "Don't get creative. " What? I just laughed so hard when I read that. Don't get creative. Where he's like, don't use your old yogurt container to like store your jewelry or like make a little project. — And disagree. Hard disagree. — What? I mean, I laughed so hard when I was reading that because not only do I do that, but I'm like passing on this weird behavior to my kid. And it is weird because I'm always like, we could make an art project out of this old [gasps] I don't do that. Listen, I'm a millennial. I don't throw away an apple box. That's like this apple box is where I put my chapstick by my nightstand. And this Apple box that my laptop in is where my socks get rolled up in my closet. — Okay. Well, that works because you're using it, right? Like his point is like you think you will use it. You think you're going to make a diarama, but you're not diarama. — To be fair to the author, when we were downsizing, I had to get rid of so many good boxes and it hurt my heart. I was like, "This is a really good box. " And I've been and I had kind of been saving it. and I wasn't using it. It was just sitting at the top of the closet because we had so much space. There was no reason not to save a good box, but then they got recycled. — Yep. — Okay. So, this makes me think of some of the feedback that we got from other uh Choose FI people in the Choose Fi community and someone who uh they didn't leave their name, but I loved this part. She said, "It's important to know thyself as the pictures in the beginning of the book I know for myself would make me sad. " Right? I got a little sad too. Like my daughter made a stuffed animal on her own tonight on the laundry room floor out of scraps and seeing the side of her face light up by the overhead light through two inches of open doorway in full concentration. Well, this just wouldn't have happened if I had minimized to Sasaki's extent. — That's a really good point. I would say overall and I'm say this as a person who does not have kids you do have to read this book with a filter with a lens if you do have ch I had a friend who told me oh yeah I read that book but I mean it's totally unrealistic if you have kids and I thought yeah you can't just live with one towel if you have children but the principles the ideas still apply you don't need a hundred towels — but it's okay to save an egg carton and to tell them to do a art project. — Oh, fully. Egg cartons are what childhood is made of. 100% agree. We got some really good comments from I guess these are the people who showed up to book club and actually read the book, right? — Yes. — Yeah. The everyone else listening is or the people who show up for the wine in conversation, which is totally fine. Sometimes that's me. But I loved um a sister we got from some sunny day and I'll just read part of it. However, I lean maximalist in design preferences and having a variety of things and the hunting and gathering and making do with what I have brings me a lot of joy. Girl, same. Even having downsized so significantly, there is a color palette like the pillows match the art. I think this isn't part of the book, but I think we've all heard the saying, keep nothing in your house that isn't beautiful or useful. And I think that the author would very much agree with that sentiment. And so, if you love beautiful things in your home, then that's serving a purpose. I don't think he would say you have to get rid of home decor if it brings you a lot of joy. — Yeah. — Do you agree with Do you think I'm misrepresenting him? Am I just twisting it to what I think I want him to say? I think he is upfront about just because living in an empty room brings him joy. It doesn't again that's not the point. The point isn't to not have things, right? The point is to align how much time you're spending taking care of those things with something about what you value. — Yeah. Let me add something else that some sunny day shared in the next few sentences. I also don't like living in quote the cloud. I'd rather look at real clouds. Also, same. So, the idea that I can just load things into the computer and then have to manage that inventory feels crummy. I still have my kids watch VHS and DVDs because there's a natural end. Doesn't start just playing the next thing and it isn't the ongoing stream and prompts to stay on forever, but that does involve more stuff. I completely agreed when I read this comment and I found myself every time I read this book I find myself cringing a little bit more when he talks about just putting everything in the cloud or how your smartphone can replace — a book, a TV and all the things. And this was written 10 years ago. I think that's just the downside of being a published author is — your book existed in a time and the further we get away the more perspective we have. Most of us are trying to spend less time on our phones these days — and less looking at them as wow isn't it amazing that this one device can do everything. [clears throat] — Yeah. It makes me think of this idea that we talk a lot about in this community of optimization and how you can optimize for the wrong thing [clears throat] — and so like for your own life, right? So, yes, that would be very efficient, but that might not be the thing that you value most in how your children are consuming media. [clears throat] — You might be valuing that they can do it in the most safe way or in the most — least addictive way or whatever that is, right? So, it can still be that you're still optimizing, you're just optimizing for something different. — Yeah, that's a really good point and goes back to what we said at the very top, right? Minimalism itself is not the goal. You don't get a Nobody gets a trophy for owning the fewest number of DVDs. — Yeah. That's not the objective. — Okay. In this community, we love to hear about a person taking action. And so I wanted to share this comment from Rost 300 who said, "After reading the book, I donated four musical instruments that had gathered dust in my closet for 15 years to a wonderful charity that will use them to educate high school students. To do that, I had to confront the fact that I am not by any means a musician. It hurts to type this. " And I had to let go of that identity. Musicians, generally speaking, do not let nice guitars and keyboards gather dust and closets for decades without touching them. And while my life has led to a lot of wonderful and amazing things, it has not led to being a musician. And it was time to accept that. — I loved that response, too. I think that's very my favorite quality in any human is self-awareness and having the self-awareness and lack of ego to go to recognize that that's what you were doing. — The courage to say goodbye to that part of yourself. — Yeah. I don't mean to contradict, but I will say also I one thing I didn't realize I was just starting to learn guitar right before we moved. And when I say starting to learn, I think I had done two lessons on YouTube and then we got here and I was like, "Wait, where's that guitar? " "Oh, you sold it. " after I had nudged my partner, I don't know, a hundred times. "You've never played that guitar. It's been sitting in the closet gathering dust for years. " Oh my gosh. — But there's more guitars. — There's more guitars. That's right. The music store is storing yours for you right now. — Truly, I could probably go into a guitar store and play a YouTube video on my phone and do the one lesson a year I'm going to remember to do. — It would be fun. — There you go. — Yeah. — I think that one also I also have a collection of musical instruments. — Oh. So Liz and I talked about, hey, let's also talk on the show about things that we aren't going to get rid of or things that we're not sure if we should get rid of. — I love this game. — And when I read that feedback, I was like, "Oh, I should ask her if I should get rid of my violin. " And then I thought, "No way. No way. It's going on the list of things that I'm not getting rid of. " And I think I'm not ready to let go of the possibility that I might be a person who plays the violin. — What would you need to do to feel good about keeping it or if you did just start playing it? — What is that funny? — No, it's just it's funny that I'm still holding on to this violin because as you say that, right, the answer is uh take some lessons. At two different times in my life, I have. Right. At two different times, I've been like, "Now is the time for me to learn violin. " — No. Three. — Two and a half. Two and a half times. — Okay. — Yeah. — You just walked out halfway through the third lesson. Got to go. — Yeah. Gotta go. I got stuff to do. — You're a terrible teacher. Bye. — Just imagine Sweet Ginger like I'm out. I think I got it. — Yeah, I got it. I got it. Anyway, [gasps] as we're talking about it, I'm like, "This is so dumb. I should get rid of the violin. " But I'm not going to. I'm not going to — yourself like that. — A so dumb. — Okay, so let's move on because the violin thing is like so boring because I haven't really thought about it enough to understand why I need to keep it around. But let's talk about some other things that we are not getting rid of. are not minimizing. — I only came up with one hard line for things that I'm 100% not getting rid of, and they are signed copies of books. — Oh, — and I don't have that many, but I probably have 10, maybe 10 books that were signed by the author. — Uhhuh. — They're not replaceable. They have a ton of sentimental value. I absolutely do not read them. — I have no intention of reading these books. Some of them sit on a shelf as decor. I like a little stack of maybe three books with a vase on top. Some of them serve that purpose. Some of them don't. — One of them held up my laptop for a long time. — Mhm. — But now it doesn't. I have a proper holder thingy. — But they make you happy to look at. — No, — I mean I don't like feel joy when I look at them, I guess, but I feel they all have sentimental value. They're all books that I got signed from the author. I didn't purchase a signed copy. Like I was there and — you know stood at the table while the author signed it for me. So they're attached to memories. — I mean I'm sure that someone could argue that I could take a picture of it. — No, I'm not going to tell you to do something crazy like that. But you could you do still have the memory though, right, of like meeting. — Yeah, but I only think about it when I look at the book. — Yeah. And this portion of the show wasn't supposed to be us like

— challenging each other. — So you can keep those books. — I'll just share one of mine — which was and to me like the heart of this inquiry is like what's something you're not minimizing even though it doesn't bring you a lot of joy. Obviously, there's reasons to keep a lot of things, but why are you holding on to those things that aren't, — I don't know, making you happy? — One thing I'm not going to get rid of is a quilt that my grandmother made me. — Oh my gosh. No, — Liz. But listen up, Liz. I don't like the quilt. — Oh, no. — Yeah. Like, I don't like the colors. I don't like the pattern. If I saw this quilt out in the world, I would never in a million years bring it into my house. And so that's where that contradiction is. I don't have it displayed anywhere. I do use it because I use it for guests. — When they come, they can have this quilt as their bedspread. So I found a way to like — feel good about it having some utility. Mhm. — But even though looking at it doesn't bring me joy because the thing itself is not beautiful to me, — I can't let go of the sentimental value that this is like my grandma made it for me with her hands, — right? — So, I'm not interested in downsizing that. Even though I really could understand the argument for, oh yeah, you could take a picture of it and you still have your grandma's, you know, memories. — Yeah. I wonder I don't think you're looking for a solutioning here, but I'm just going to offer you one anyway. So, feel free to say no. Thank you. That's a terrible idea. But what if you like could you cut a corner of it or something and frame? — I know it gets so crazy. — You just you were like, "Oh my god, no. You want to cut my grin under? " — You know, I did think of that, but here's the problem with that is like a now I have to frame this ugly thing. like, "No, I don't want it framed and I'm ruining it as like having any utility for anyone else, which maybe it doesn't matter. The whole world is full of trash. " But you know what I mean? Like that part wouldn't feel good to me either. — So, I'm just going to hold on to it forever andough. That's fine. It's fine. — I am going to have to face I have So, again, we have primarily moved out of our large home. You know, listen, there was [clears throat] a lot of we did it the extremely expensive way. We just moved out of our house for a month and then we took another couple months to really move over everything that we wanted before we even had somebody else move into our it for a long time. And even still, you could argue it it's the world's most expensive storage unit right now. — But we mostly have everything that we want, right? Like I would say in the first we brought over sort of a an MVP, right? A minimum viable product. We brought over like a couch and a couple chairs and our desks and a bed and a couple suitcases literally. And then I would say for the first month we went over probably at least once a week to go, "Oh, we don't have this. Oh, Here's some things that we're missing. " Everything that's there now can probably be gotten rid of. But you saying that has reminded me that my mother makes quilts and she has probably gifted us three or four handmade — quilts that she made with her hands and I love one of them. — Okay, easy. — The other one I often use we use for picnics actually. You know what's so funny? Okay, so it is this we have this quote we use for picnics all the time. It's beautiful. super bright colors. I had it on the ground and people, it's so pretty. People comment often when they walk by like, "Oh, that quilt's so beautiful. " And I say, "Oh, my mom made it. Can you believe? " And this woman was walking by and she said, "That quilt is really nice. " And I said, "Oh, thank you. My mom made it. " And she took a few steps away and then she turned around and she goes, "I don't think you should have that on the ground. " [gasps] And I said, "Oh, well, okay. " But, you know, my mom knows that I put it on the ground and it's washable. So, you know, we take it home and we throw it in the wash after we put it on the ground and have a picnic on it. And she said, "Okay. " And she turned around to leave. And then she just turned around one more time and she goes, "I mean, it should really be hanging up on the wall. " Like, that is a handmade piece of art. — I don't like it. You should have said it can be here or it can be at the Goodwill. What do you — I just thought I'm not going to hang this up on the wall. Like, I love it, but not as wall art. It's a blanket. I mean, it's a really nice blanket, but I don't know what I should do. So, we'll keep one or two and then I'll have one or two that I don't want to keep. And I don't know. Like, should I tell her? Should I — send them back? — No, don't send them back. — I don't know. One of them has my name embroidered on it. It's pretty. I might just keep them and keep them under the bed and just be like, — "Yeah, that's another part of the whole like, oh, what is the goal here? And is the goal just to get rid of things? " And if you have a place to keep it and it feels good to keep it, then we don't have to follow this dude's rules. — Yeah. I think it's just going to feel really awful to get rid of it. And I think that's reason enough for me to just find a space for it. — Yeah. — I'm not trying to own one towel. One true towel is — one true towel. I would like to own fewer things, not zero things. And I'm struggling with my Christmas decorations, too. — H say more because you don't feel like you have room for them now. — Yeah. I mean, I could find space for them, but I don't really want to. — Oh, easy. — But I also Some of them are sentimental, right? Some of them were gifts or — Yeah. — heirlooms, I guess you would say. I would like to have a big Christmas tree every year, but I don't have a place to keep it. I mean, I don't want to buy one every year and then just get rid of it. — Yeah. Do you have a lot of Christmas stuff? I have kind of stuff because I have a basement and so it's that same thing, right? Where it seems silly to have a storage bin for this thing that we only access for 3 weeks, but also I don't need that blank space in the basement either. — But you saying some of that was sentimental or talking about your mom, it made me think of another comment that we got. — Oh, about the griddle. — Yeah. Yeah. Let's read it for us. Okay, Heather, first of all, she said, "Thank you for this wonderful show. " Which is just nice. I think you missed too earlier when the part you were reading Ginger, someone who then ended their email with, "I love Ginger so much. She's amazing. Thank you for everything that you do, which I would like to echo. " Plus, went to that. — Okay. Heather said, "This reminded me of a call I had with my aunt just two days ago. My cousin needed an electric griddle, which my aunt had unused in the box in the garage. She did not want to use it or give it to my cousin because it was the last Christmas gift from my grandmother almost six years ago. However, she was okay with it being unused buried in the garage. My grandmother would not have wanted that. My aunt did let my cousin have it, but only if she takes very good care of it. I worry for the day the griddle gets broken, but for now, it is at least out of my aunt's house and hopefully being used. Yeah, — I would not want to have that griddle. I would be too afraid. — Yeah. What do you think my grandma would think of my dilemma? — That's such a good question. [singing] How many quilts did your grandma make? — She had a ton of grandchildren and she made each one of them a quilt for their high school graduation. — Oh. — Mhm. So, [clears throat] it's not like she labored over this one quilt for 10 years. — It's the only one she ever made. — No, but it was the one special thing that she made me. — Okay. Did you pick out the colors or the design or anything? — No. — Does yours look like all your cousins or did you get one that was sort of bespoke for your taste? — Yep. It was unique to — for you. Okay. — Yeah. — I mean, I think she would say you're a bad person for even thinking about No, I'm just kidding. — I know. Like, this would be so devastating. like this is such a terrible hypothetical even though my grandma has not been with us for many decades. — I think she would be happy that you used it and appreciated it and loved your relationship with her. But how would you feel? What if Okay, what if you handed this quilt down to one of your kids? — Yeah. — And let's say they were adults and had their own home and then you found out they got rid of it. How would you feel? Oh, fine. — I mean, that's such a funny thing about decluttering or getting rid of things. Minimal minimalizing minimizing words. Words are hard. It's so common to feel like you don't want to just put something in Goodwill. We certainly, for many reasons, don't want to just throw things in the trash, but the idea of giving it to someone else feels good. And then if they get if they chuck it, — oh my gosh, I think you hit — that's not our problem anymore. — You've hit on something crucial there, too, in terms of we feel responsible in a way. Like I was thinking, oh, what if my husband just threw it away? — Oh, — I mean, as I say that, I'm like, no, I wouldn't like that. But it's not the same bading, right? If it were to accidentally kind of be out of my house, that would be okay. But I don't want to do that because that feels like a betrayal of love. — That's really interesting. — Yeah. — So, you're saying I could just keep the quilts that my mom made me that I like and then the ones I don't want anymore, I could just lie and say they got lost and then if she ever came and was like, "Where's my other quilt? " I don't think she would do that, though. She's She wouldn't. — She I don't think she would mind. I don't think your grandmother my mom would mind. — Yeah. I don't know. I had a pair of socks that my grandmother knitted. They weren't socks. They were little slipper sock kind of things. — I had them for a long time and then I got rid of them. — And I think part of why I felt okay about it was that she had made a lot of them. She was a very avid knitter. — Yeah. — And she probably didn't even remember specifically making that one pair for me. — Right. I feel like we've talked about the quilt for too long. So, we're gonna move to — This is now the show is called Choose a Quilt. — Uh, so we're going to move to our final portion of the show where we talk about things that we are conflicted about getting rid of and then have the other person tell us what we should do. — I thought of three examples. — Great. Keep in mind, I literally just downsized all of my belongings by like 70%. So, the fact that I still was easily able to come up with these — me think I still have work to do. — I have a few, too. All right, I'll go first. — You go first. Yep. — I've had planter fasciitis. [sighs] Sharing too much on this episode. A couple times. Two times. — To be clear, that's an issue with your foot. You were just oversharing like it was like an intimate. — It did feel too intimate. I'm like, "What are you doing? — What are you sharing? " — Okay. I've had this foot issue at two different times in my life. Not The last time was like, I don't know, five years ago. And the thing that fixes it is you wear this stupid boot to bed. — Okay. That puts your foot in a special position. Or at least that's the thing that has worked for me. — It's a boot. It kind of takes up some closet space. I haven't used it in 5 years. — This seems bonkers to me that you still have this. Okay. — But it's like $40. — Do you not have $40? Like — you're right. You're right. Just get rid of the boot. Okay. That one was easy. — That just seems like I don't think they all seem that easy. But listen, the quilt I grappled with the boot. I'm like, you could get it tomorrow if you needed it. — Totally. It's not a one use boot though. I mean, I'm just gonna keep buying this boot every time. — Well, you have a for — and in the meantime, you could probably post it and buy the nothing group and then somebody else could — be getting use out of it and then they would have to buy a new one. So, — oh [clears throat] my gosh. Fine, I'll get rid of the boot. Okay, you go. — That seems like an easy one to me. Sorry. — Easy. — Okay. I own somewhere between 15 and 20 nail polishes, — but I only use probably three of them. But sometimes I think, well, I might get a wild hair and want to use. I might want to paint my nails red even though I usually paint them pink. — Do you know why I love this segment? Because it's so easy when it's not you. Like, why are we even talking about this? Go throw them away. — Obviously, keep them, right? — No. All in the trash instantly. You'll feel great — in the trash. No, I'm going to I would buy nothing then if nothing else. — Okay. Sure. You have classier nail polish than me. You can keep one weird color in addition to your three. Okay. — Like I have a bright pink that I only like to wear on vacation, so I might only use that one once a year. — Yeah, that's your one. — That's the one weird one I could Okay, that doesn't seem I think that one should Okay. You're right. — Done. Like I used a red the other day and then I only left it on my nails for two days and then I took it off immediately. I was like this is I don't love I liked it for an hour and then I didn't like it after that. Okay, this one brings up a different kind of thing maybe we haven't talked about. So mine is a foot stool I don't love. But wait, here's the interesting part if anyone is still listening. I bought it two weeks ago. — Oh, can you return it? — No, because I got it on Facebook Marketplace. — Oh. — And we're like redoing this area and I thought it was what we needed and I sent my husband to go get it and then he brought it back and it like wasn't really the right color. — And I thought, well, I'm not like putting different furniture in this room so that I can have different furniture I don't super like. — Yeah. Yeah, but at the same time it feels insane — to get rid of it. I just got it. What? — But what? No, this is a lot easier when it's other people. No, you should definitely get rid of that. — Okay. All right. Done. — Okay. Here's why though. Because a lot of things I own, specifically home furnishings, are from Facebook Marketplace. I love buying secondhand furniture. When I buy something from Facebook Marketplace, I assume there's only like a 70% chance I'm gonna like it. And if not, you just turn around and relist it. You release it back out into the cycle. [sighs and gasps] — My thought was, should I reupholster it? But then this is the whole thing. You're like, — I mean, are you going to — You're like, oh, do you know how to do that? No. — Like you're like, oh, you have a fabric you really love. No, but I'm like, oh, this could be a project and I could save it, but maybe I should just sell it and go on with my life. I think you should just sell it. One of the points from this book that I thought was really great was the idea of thinking of yourself as renting your belongings rather than owning them and not actually renting them, right? Like I own this little couch I'm sitting on right here, but I know I'm not going to own it forever. And I probably paid, I don't know, $200 or $300 for this on Facebook Marketplace. And when I sell it, if I sell it for $100, then great. I rented it for 200 bucks for the time that I had it. Cool. I just rented this for two weeks and it's fine. — Exactly. And then and sometimes you can flip it. So I did that when I wanted to get a Pelaton bike, but I didn't want to commit to the full Pelaton. This is when they were expensive. — And so I bought a cheap spin bike off Facebook Marketplace for $150 to make sure I would use it. And then I used a few times a week for a month or so. And then I decided I was ready to buy the whole shebang. And I sold it for more than I bought. I made money. You could maybe sell this foot stool for more than you paid for it. — Yeah, I could make $5. — Exactly. — All right. What's your last thing? — Okay. My last thing was evening wear that I haven't worn in years. But let Okay. Before you're like immediately, no. Get just take it to the curb right now. — Evening wear is hard. — Yep. — Evening gowns, right? Evening dresses. finding something that fits you, looks good on you, you feel like you have the right bra for it, all the things. But we don't often, we don't have a lot of I would say maybe twice a year I have to go I have to I get to go to something where you get to get really dressed up. — Mhm. — And I specifically have struggled since early pandemic days. There were a few years there obviously when we were not going to events like that — and I can only wear you know if I go to two things I can only wear two but I probably own five evening gowns. One of them is like a little snug but I think it will fit again one day. — It would fit now. Like I could wear it in a pinch if I needed to. It's just it I probably if I took it off the rack today and tried it on I wouldn't buy it because I'd be like oh it's a little too tight. I don't want this. But I already own it and I've already put the money into it into buying something that I like that looks good on me. So when an event comes up, I don't have to go — Yeah. — look for something else. Because for example, my sister got married last year and I was the only bridesmaid. — Mhm. — So I end, this is going to go against my case, but I ended up buying a new dress because none of the five gowns that I owned worked because the color didn't work. — Uhhuh. And it took me months to find a dress that I wanted to wear to this wedding. So I think I have this idea in my mind that if I let go of these dresses, I'm really going to regret it. I think hold on to the dresses because the utility — is not just, hey, I'm going to have something to wear, but I'm not going to have to worry about having to find something to wear. — Right. You're not saying you don't like them. — Yeah. No, I do Easy. I just don't have an occasion to wear them very I don't know what I'm trying to talk you out about. You already gave me a pass. — I'm trying to give you — Take the win, Liz. Take the win. — I feel like we should say something about the book. — Okay. — I feel like we should wrap up by getting back to the book — to the book. I meant to share this earlier, but can I share my favorite passage from this book? — Yes. Perfect. This is how we're gonna end. Liz is going to share her favorite passage. — And then there was one idea that I thought was really compelling and so I'll share that as well. It's the same one. — Oh my gosh, you're up. Okay, newly game style. We'll find out. — In the first couple opening pages of the book, the author gives this example of when you're packing to go on vacation, you have to decide everything that you want and you have to put it all into a suitcase. and you walk out the door and you have this moment where you kind of think, well, if I don't have it, I'll figure it out, right? When I get there, I'll buy it or or I'll just manage without it. And he talks about this moment that when you actually get to where you're going and this is the passage that I loved so much. He says, "You aren't surrounded by all the things that usually distract you, the stuff that takes up so much of your attention. That's why travel accommodations often feel so comfortable. You set down your bag and step out for a walk around the neighborhood. You feel light on your feet like you could keep walking forever. You have the freedom to go wherever you want. Time is on your side and you don't have the usual chores or work responsibilities weighing you down. And that idea of you set down your bag and you step out for a walk around the neighborhood is how I feel living in my small apartment. When I get home, I set down my bag. — Oh. — And I go for a walk around the neighborhood and it just conjures to mind. Do you feel this way when you go on vacation? You've had this heavy travel day and you finally get to your hotel. You set down your bag and the first thing you want to do is just go walk outside. — It's the best. And there's no responsibilities waiting for you inside. There's no there's nothing else that you're supposed to be doing. And that is my only goal in life these days. I guess that is so lovely. And we should have ended on that. — Like you've done it. — I know. Well, I think mine is kind of similar in that it was him talking about why we should choose experiences over things or why not why we should, but why that can lead to more happiness. — And he put it in a way that I hadn't considered before. So, this is what he said. — He said, "It's easy to compare things with other people and feel bad if we don't have them, but hard to compare experiences. " Oh, and that might have just been my summary. Okay, but here's the quote. It's a considerable amount of imagination is necessary if you want to compare your yoga class to someone's game of golf or your fishing trip to another person's camping expedition because experiences resist comparison. We're happier with them, right? Where he says like if you're comparing your outfit to someone else's or your specific purse to someone else is like that's so easy to compare. — Oh, — I know. But it's not easy to compare that like lived textured existence, — right? What a lovely framing. — I know. I love that. — That's so interesting. So, I love that idea and it makes me think about I think this is related. I'm going to make it related. One of my favorite things I've seen on the internet in my whole life was a short video of someone saying, "Here's a list of things that we're billionaires can't have a better version than me. " — Oh. Uhhuh. — And she listed like, "I have the newest iPhone. " Like there's not a some secret better iPhone that a billionaire has or we read the same books. We watch the same movies. A deliciously crisp Apple. It's the same for me as it is for someone with a billion dollars. And it's it makes me think of the passage that you just said because again, the experience of doing things like going to a yoga class is great. I mean, maybe you want to go to a yoga class like on the sunset at a beach or something. But in general, just being on your mat and moving and breathing, that's kind of the ultimate experience. There's not really improving on that. — Mhm. Don't eat. If you could compare your yoga class to someone else's, — you would just go, "Cool, we both had great yoga classes. " — Yeah. I thought it was so interesting because yeah, that's not a natural thing that we do. Like, we might compare a hypothetical vacation or hypothetical class, but I don't think we're we compare our actual experiences — in the same way. — Yeah. When someone tells you they just got back from vacation, you're not going, "Okay, well, what did you do the first day? " — Yeah. Exactly. I had a better mango that day than you. — Better mango. — Yeah, — exactly. Well, I tend to reread this book once a year. So, we we're going to get back together and uh book club again on the same book one year from now. — Yes. And then we'll actually talk about the book. No, I think we talked about the book a little bit. — book. Guys, you guys, what's so important, like what you took away here is like the experience is so much more important than the object. We have so enjoyed having this experience with you. Go check out Liz's podcast. She has multiple. Liz gets loaded, the money kind. And I added that. I added that. That's not the title. And she is also a one of the co-hosts on Inside Out Money. — I love both of those podcast. I highly recommend both of them. Inside Out Money is a little more tactical. It's like a here's how to save money on this or change your mindset on this. Liz gets loaded is just like an unhinged diary. It's just me going on and saying here's it's about money and anxiety because I have both. So, it's a fun one. I'm laughing. I'm looking at the time. in the time that you took to listen to this podcast. You could have also listened to about a third of this actual audio book, but you wouldn't know anything about what kind of nail polish I have or about Ginger's planter fasciitis. So, — yeah. So, you've really taken something. — Who wants that? — And as always, go take action. Go throw away something that you have thought about throwing away at least five times. And we will catch you next time.