HAYDEN PANETTIERE Tells Her Truth For The First Time Ever (Custody, Addiction, Fame, Hollywood)

I worked so hard to create this incredible life and career and I burnt it all to the ground. Don't believe what you see in a picture. There is so much more going on. So much more. For the first time, I was able to put into words what has been going on for the past decade. I was going to ask if I could read it. I'd really appreciate that. — Okay. — Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is one of those stories that I believe allows so many of us to understand more deeply, to expand our compassion, to recognize the value of what we all go through behind the scenes when you actually live a very public life, a life that we think we know, but we know very, very little about. Today I am joined by Hayden Panetier, an actress so many of us grew up watching whose career spanned more than three decades. From one of my favorites, Remember the Titans, to becoming a global star on Heroes and earning two Golden Globe nominations for her role on Nashville. Now, for the first time, Hayden is sitting down to share her story in her own words in her powerful new memoir that I got to read beforehand, This is Me, A Reckoning. Please welcome to OnPurpose, Hayden Paniteria. Hayden, uh, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. — It's an honor to be here. — I want to start by just saying that when I read the book, I can't imagine how challenging, difficult, and vulnerable you had to be to even begin to capture the amount of life that you've lived in these 36 years. And I just want to acknowledge the courage and strength that I saw in it when I was reading it. And I was so looking forward to our conversation today because I really wanted to learn about the human behind these words, but also behind the headlines and the news that we've seen.

I wanted to start off by asking you, what's a childhood memory that you have that you feel defines who you are today? — God, got a laundry list I can think of off the top of my head, but really defines who I am. I think I've been really impacted by the people that I've gotten to work with and especially when I was at very sensitive ages. Like when I think back to Remember the Titans, as you said, at 10 years old, that experience, that whole experience, everyone on set it and playing that character of Cheryl that felt so similar to who I was naturally as a person. I felt like that really shaped me, really shaped my uh perspective of the industry, made me feel like now I know what kind of actor I want to be. I want to be generous and there for people, but this can also be fun. — Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to read from your book if that's all right. Yeah, — you say in the book that from a very young age I lost the chance to have a normal childhood, friends, relationships, and my privacy because instead of fighting it, I leaned into the talent I was somehow blessed with. — And I wanted to ask you like what do you

think a normal childhood looked like and how was yours different from that? — Well, to me a normal childhood looked like extracurricular activities. It looked like doing, you know, going to school, being in school all day long. Um, having a social life and connection with your peers, you know, going home, doing homework, having playdates, having friends over, um, having those kind of experiences. And even though I did get some of that because I had to live that life and had to be removed from it all the time, whether it was to go to auditions or to go to work, I constantly was missing out on the social aspect — of what was going on with my I mean, I was trying to be friends with them, but um when you miss out, you know, then you sit down, you really have nothing to talk about because I want I only had my experience and what I did yesterday which was I was on set or I was in the city doing an audition and that wasn't something that I could expect anyone around me to understand. So I feel like I got a taste of what I saw what a normal childhood would be and I was on swim team and I did do gymnastics and um you know Occasionally I got invited to a birthday party, but a lot of the times I was left out. So it didn't feel like I had a normal childhood, normal upbringing. But to me it was uh yeah, just being able to be a kid. — Yeah. Did you recognize that then? Like

— I did. I remember school was very um tricky for me because here I was trying to fit into two different worlds and I was dealing with this massive world which is the industry and dealing with big emotions like what you feel after rejection or not getting a role or a ridiculous amount of praise an unhealthy amount of praise that you get at too young of an age. And then I had the world that I was desperately trying to fit into as well that I was supposed to fit into that it should have been easy to fit into and I couldn't fit into that either. So I was like where do I belong? — Yeah. It's hard when you're caught in between two different worlds and you somehow as a very young child have to somehow make it look seamless and move through these worlds with — taking emotions from this one into that and that one into this and — Yeah. And you don't want anyone to see you sweat. — Yes. either you want to make it you want to be cool, calm, and collected because being overly emotional around your pe people that age, like my age, it doesn't go over well. And well with adults either. So, you have to like bottle up all of these emotions. — Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It almost feels like when you're with your kids your age, you're just trying to fit in and be cool, — but you're dealing with these emotions you're carrying over. And then when you're with the adults, you're trying to make sure everyone's happy and — everything's going okay. Yeah. I feel like the first time I really felt like I didn't fit in though was actually when I was in kindergarten and it was brought on by the teacher not liking me. — The opinions of the teachers and the way that the adults saw me was rubbing off on the kids. Um, and I can only imagine what the kids' parents were saying about, you know, their children going to school with an actress at home. But yeah, I was bullied first by a teacher in kindergarten and then it graduated to first grade was the first time I heard anyone say raise their hand and say, "Why does Hayden get to miss school and we don't? " And that was the first time I felt like, "Oh, they really it bothers them that what I do. " And then middle school, which is treacherous as for anybody, but especially as a female, like girls are just really hard on each other. And uh wouldn't help when the teacher would roll in a screen and say, "Hey, we're going to watch a movie during class. " And everyone would get excited and then they'd pop in, remember the Titans. And there I was trying to fit in and just trying to find a seat next to somebody who wasn't rolling their eyes and huffing and puffing about having to sit next to me. I was just trying to blend and then they were popping that on and I was just like, "Is this even legal? Like, can you do this to a kid child abuse? " — Yeah. Was it ever clear what the reason

the teacher who bullied you was? or did they ever have any interactions with your family or — No, I mean if first of all kindergarten is way too young to really have do anything wrong. I mean, I remember when the first time she ever bullied me was the very first day of kindergarten and we were coloring and they were had the color the crayons in these wet wipe the wet wipe boxes and they said, you know, wrap it up, everybody close the boxes and as being kids, you know, it became a little bit of a race of who's going to close it first. And I went to close one and another girl went to close it at the same time and it went on her finger. Yeah. — And I apologized profusely and felt horrible about it. And I remember her best friend walked up and said, "Yeah, but we have to tell on you. " And my heart sank and I didn't know how it was going to go. And they walked up to the teacher and told her and I looked at her and I said, "It was an accident. " And she looked right at me and she said, "Oh, it doesn't look like an accident to me. " — Wow. And I mean at such a young age for that to like that's stuck with me, you know, all of these years later. Not all of my teachers were like that. There were teachers that were super supportive, but there was a substitute teacher who came and she would call me the big cheese in front of everyone. She said, "What you think because you're an actress, you you're the big cheese. " M — and that's so not who I was and wanted to be. So quite the experience trying to fit in. Disappointed in people. I really just wanted to as you said fit in. I wanted to be normal — like every kid does. — Yeah. Like all of us do. And as someone by the way you described it, I had a very normal childhood and it's hard enough as it is — even when it's you know normal. And so when something's making you stand out or someone's pointing things out, especially as kids when we don't have a clue what's going on and all the other kids in your class who wouldn't really understand how to make context of this, you need an adult to kind of make sense of it. — Yeah. And a lot of it I felt like came out of left field. I one of the things I'm sure you read in the book is that I kept the notes that were passed to me — in school, the nasty notes, and I kept them in my binder under my bed. And I think it was because I wanted to desperately to understand what they were seeing in me. And it started the habit of changing who I was to make others happy, to make them like me. And I thought if I could understand where they were coming from or what they saw or what they didn't like that I could maybe it was the actress in me and having been directed all my life that I could change my performance a little bit and it would make them accept me. — Yeah. You also had the you've talked

about having the pressure to support and provide for your family as well, right? Did you always know that was your responsibility even then? Like when you're talking about this idea of performing, making sure everyone else is okay. — I wonder how much of it was something you had to do at home as well. — I want to make it clear that I mean my father was a lieutenant in the fire department and he had businesses so I wasn't supporting the family. But I do remember being um a very young and my mom trying to explain to me that this incorporation that she set up, this corporation she set up paid for the cars, the lease on the cars and the uh cell phone bills because it was a tax write off. And I remember that role reversal being incredibly uncomfortable for me where I was, you know, on one hand I was still a kid and I was listening to my my parents and had to do everything that they told me I could and could not do, but at the same time I was working hard, making money, and this money was going towards things that I wasn't privy to. So, as my dad would kick my butt if if I made people think that I like supported the whole family, but then when I got older too and I my mom bought an apartment — for me when I was 16 and my whole family lived in it. So again, it was just that very strange uncomfortable feeling of the role reversal and desperately wanting to still feel like the kid and still feel like I had parents to lean on. I didn't want I even when I was a kid, I was scared of the dark and my dad would I would make my dad lay down next to me and if his head ever went below mine, I would freak out and and make him, you know, sit up further so I could because I wanted to feel like the kid that has kind of continued on in my life. just wanting to know that if I found myself in a terrible position that I could call somebody to help me. I could rely on somebody. I wasn't the only person. I wasn't the person that everybody else was relying on and therefore nobody was there for me. — Yeah. I mean, and so natural, right, to want that and to seek that is so real and so natural, especially as a young child and kid. And then of course with everything else that you're taking on there's nothing about that feels anything but what every child deserves and what every child wants and you know — deeply is looking for. But

— I know in the book you also write about how there's this sense of what you were just saying about collecting all these notes and — not wanting to almost let the kids down and become who they needed you to be. It feels like that kind of became your relationship with your mom as well where you didn't want to disappoint her. — Oh my gosh. That was my entire relationship with her. She was my boss. That's how I saw her. Even though she was the most supportive person, when I, you know, did what I was supposed to do and did it well and was the one cheering me on. It did feel like that was what I had to do to get her love. And that was, you know, a tough pill to swallow. I never Everything was business. Everything was business focused. And there's not I mean I started at 8 months old. There's I I don't even I can't even remember a time where she wasn't a mama, — you know, where everything didn't revolve around business. And there were periods of time as I got older where I we spent a lot of time traveling and on the road together and I was the only person there. So, I became the confidant and the assistant and the therapist and the shoulder to cry on and everything but her child. — Have you ever had the opportunity to tell her that and to have that conversation with her? When I was uh 19, I finally got the guts uh to got up the courage to split from her as business-wise because I desperately wanted a relationship with her. Desperately wanted her to just be my mom. Um and so she came into my trailer during lunch when we were filming Heroes. And I said to her, I don't want us to work together anymore. I just want you to be my mom. And I remember being hopeful, but there was that part of me who knew her too well. But I also wasn't expecting the reaction that I got, which was, "You owe me. " And that's all she said. And she walked out. And part of me was like, "Oh, I'm relieved that it was short. " Like, rip the band-aid off. But then it was like this dark looming cloud, you know, over my head going, "What does she mean by I owe her? — What form of payment is she expecting? " And it was disappointing to find out that it was money and that she didn't pursue a relationship with me as just a mother daughter. Um like once the business aspect was removed, I was hoping that if I remove this then she that there will be no reason for her to be anything other than my mom. And um and the fact that she it seemed like she didn't want to have didn't care to have a relationship with me was uh a tough pill to swallow. — As a child, I'm sure you were also even

as a teenager, you still dealing with the guilt of like how do I have this conversation with my mom? — Mhm. Because I'm guessing there was a part of you that was of course grateful and of course like you know but at the same time I hear your intention loud and clear which is I just want you to be my mom — and I don't want you to play another role in my life — and then to not get that other role even when that part's taken care of it. Yeah. — Do you still not connect or talk today — at the moment? No. there is not a relationship between her and I uh sadly um I've gone through periods of time where we just we we've haven't spoken at all. It seemed to me there it was kind of like there was no reason she had no reason to call and the only reason why she would reach out was when something was needed. It wasn't just to say, you know, hi or how are you or let's grab a bite or anything like that. It's been a really tough road and I've no matter how many times that door has been slammed in my face, I've desperately seek her approval for my entire life. You know, she was the person after every take that I looked to. I wouldn't look to the director or the producers or anybody else. the only person that existed and the only person I was whose opinion mattered to me was hers. So after every take, no matter what I was doing, I would find her. And I'm sure I made, you know, the directors feel I like, hey, cuz I would run right past them, straight to mom. And I had to make sure that I wasn't that she was happy with it and I wasn't in trouble because if I didn't do it right, I was in trouble. Yeah. It was not a good reaction. But I mean, I've lived to please her and um and even though as I said, as you said, you know, I'm incredibly grateful you're here. She's she and I've never had a conversation with her as to why she stopped acting and decided to focus her entire life on creating a career for me and whether it was just that she felt like I was good at it, which is why she kept me in it, or she wanted to live vicariously, or if she wanted to create a potentially successful future for me. I haven't gotten a chance to really talk with her um about that, but I'm very grateful for everything that I have, but it's it was just very confusing because I never asked for it. And that was the thing, like I wasn't I there were times where things would get overwhelming and I could tell they would get overwhelming for her and she she's a big personality and um and I also felt very guilty about us having to spend so much time away from my father and her her son, my little brother who was growing up and that it was because of me. what I was doing. Um, and it was my fault. And I remember actually turning to me one night and saying, "You're the reason why I'm missing my son growing up. " And uh, you know, that was a punch in the gut. But as grateful as I was, I wanted to say to her, "But I didn't ask you to take me on auditions. " I didn't. I wasn't even uh old enough to, you know, perceive to understand anything but good, bad, hot, cold, diaper change, food, you know, that kind of stuff. So, there were really high emotions. I loved what I did and I had great experiences, but at the same time, I was like, I didn't beg you to to give me your life to sacrifice all of this so that I could have this career. — Yeah. It wasn't your dream. It wasn't your choice. — And I don't know if it would have been eventually, you know, I wonder that all

the time. — Talk to me about that because even earlier when I read the excerpt from the book, you talk about this idea of acting being a talent that you just leaned into. Mhm. — Because it was a gift that you were given and then you leaned into it. It's almost like you never got the opportunity to discover who you would have been. — I remember being about I would say around probably 12 years old and having a total identity crisis. I mean I was standing in my room and I was had been auditioning and acting for years and I was sitting there going who am I? Which part am I? because I can be all of these different characters and I can find all these these parts in me and I can be I can become, you know, and I can bring out my fiercer side or I can be more gentle, whatever the character called for. And they all felt like parts of me. But who the heck was I like just without this? Who would I be if w without this? So, I was very aware of it and that it was going to have an impact on me when I was older and I was very worried about that. I didn't talk to anybody about it ever. I didn't think anybody would ever have an answer. I don't, you know, to it. But I was like, "This is going to screw you up as an adult. It's going to rear its ugly head and it's going to and you're not going to be able to make the connection between why a certain behavior. Why am I behaving like this as an adult? It's going to be very difficult to find the connection to the childhood experience that caused that. — It's a lot to take on so young and hard to process and yeah, hard to know where it goes and and how it moves forward with you in your life. It sounds like you were being reflective of this almost all the way. It doesn't feel like something that you've only done recently. It feels like at every stage, whether it was 12 or 19, when you — finally made the decision

— did you ever start to feel a sense of choice and agency and effect? — I'd grown up in a household where, you know, as much as I love the chaos of my family, there was a lot of headbutting going on. So when I was 18 and Heroes was on and we had all as a family uh moved out to LA and we were living under the same roof in a condo um with dogs and cats and just we were in each other. We went from living all living in a big house to living in very tight quarters. But as soon as I was 18, I was I went to my mom and I said, "I I want to move out. " Um, and I knew I needed to move out for my own mental and emotional health. I would say 18 was when I finally felt courageous enough to uh to communicate that and to and to, you know, start my own life. — Yeah. And did that come with a sense of like confidence and kind of enthusiasm that you had that or was it almost like a necessity of like I just need to do this to survive? — Yeah. No, it was both. It was the idea was terrifying cuz I am a true pack animal. Like I need people around me. That's it's arguably has the biggest impact on mentally, emotionally, spiritually, which leads to physically. Yes, it was survival. It was definitely survival. It was necessity. It was I need to get myself out of here. And it was I carried a lot of guilt with me and leaving my little brother behind in what I could no longer tolerate. Um, and I was terrified to live alone. I didn't want to be lonely. The I didn't I wanted people around me. I was still scared of the dark and didn't want to not have anybody to, you know, lay down next to me until I went to sleep uh to make sure that I was safe. So, it was exciting, but at the same time, I would say it was more so necessity. — Yeah. I mean, you know, as I was reading your book and learning more and more about you, it was almost like my empathy for you just like grew every time. And I mean that in your strength, for your strength in these situations, not as a sense of pity or feeling sorry for you, but seeing just how strong you had to be in so many different situations. And this when I got to this part when you write about this in the book, you write about a moment in your career where a friend of yours takes you onto a boat. You're led to a room which has an older man in it and then basically told to perform sexual acts and you know — Oh yeah. — And when I read that I'm like oh gosh like not only have you felt like you've had a really unsupported you know upbringing you're now with a friend in the industry and then ending up in a situation like

this. Could you talk to me about what that moment does to your psyche when you're that — I mean the fact that I was 18 even though I'd lived such a huge life and I thought I was oh so mature at 18 you know scientifically you know her frontal loes don't develop until we're what 20 26 25 26 so even though I felt like I could make healthy decisions safe decisions I wasn't capable of being fully aware of what was going on around me. And it wasn't until I found myself in predicaments that I realized like it my perspective completely shifted and I realized that I was in danger. But by the time I'd realized I was in danger, I was quite literally out to sea. And um and it was that mo I mean that moment shook me and was shocking. Um and I was quite literally put walked down and I had been having a great time. There was no hints of anything like that happening. So it took me I was shocked. It took me by surprise. Um, and it was somebody led by somebody that I had grown to trust and see as a protector and somebody who had my back and to be walked down, you know, down the stairs. And it was as like a surprise presented as though it was like a surprise and it was this very small room. And she physically put me in the bed next to this undressed man who was very famous and um and had his hands like this like this was just you know an average day for him and this is something that happens all the time. And I waited for her to leave. And I mean that lion in me, that fire in me, that my hair stood on end and I became ferocious. I was like, "This is not happening. " But I had nowhere to hide. And I bolted and I hid wherever I could think of to hide on a boat. On a boat. There was no jumping off and swimming away. And there was nobody who was going to I realized that be empathetic to my situation that this was nothing new to them. I mean, you know, that sounds it's such a horrifying event to go through and to be put in that position at 18 years old — and disappointing when somebody lets you down like that. And I'd been let down so much before and that when you really find somebody that you trust, like you hold on to them for dear life and you feel so lucky. So to be betrayed like that — is just an awful feeling. And now a break from our sponsor, Miracle Grow. Let's be real, everyone's feeling a little digitally distracted and time starved lately. People are craving real connections and ways to unplug. And honestly, gardening is the ultimate way to do this. It isn't just about plants. It's about trading the digital noise for a quiet win. As you pour your energy into helping something grow, you're pouring a sense of calm and connection back into yourself, too. Whether you're in an apartment or you've never even touched a shovel, don't let self-doubt stop you. With 75 years of expertise, Miracle Grow takes the stress out of the process and makes it pure joy. And here's the big secret. Most people think water and sunlight are enough, but your plants actually need more to truly thrive. Whether it's starting with the right soil foundation or giving plants the boost they need to stay vibrant with plant food, Miracle Grow has all the essentials to make growing simple and stress-free. Head to miragrow. com to check out all of their easy to use products and start your growth journey today. How do you decide who you trust?

Now, — it doesn't seem like I've done much of a very good job. I don't think I I've gotten much better at choosing on one hand because I do feel like I have there are certain people that I negative with negative energy and that are just not good people that have been I've that have been drawn to me for whatever reason and who I've not seen clearly um immediately. It took me a while like they really were able to pull the wool over my eyes which you would not ex I didn't expect of myself you know having had all the exper life experience that I have and having had things like that already happen to me like you would think it would have been a learning experience and it you know I would have made sure that it never happened again and unfortunately that was uh not the case. But that being said, I have I on the other hand, I have had amazing people in my life. I mean, my dad has been a huge support system for me since I was a kid. He was the safe space. Um, and there's a lot of me in him. He is the person that kept me grounded and made me, you know, the good in me. I got my big heart from him. But I have throughout the years been fortunate enough to meet just incredible people. And I do have a group of friends that are in incredible people, incredibly loyal and are genuinely good. So they're just a few that have snuck in here and there. Yeah, I think uh and I got to meet some of them today. Your best friend is with you and others who are wonderful people and you know great to see you surrounded by them. And I was sharing this with you as we were speaking before that sometimes I feel that I think a lot of good people beat themselves up for attracting negative people around them. And the truth is I don't think you attract negative people. But I think when you get so big and large — Mhm. — in your work and your career and you're exposed to so many people, you just come across more negative people because you're exposed to more and you know, you don't — Right. — Like if you're only exposed to your town or your community or whatever, maybe you'll come across a couple of people. — But when you start getting exposed to a bigger industry and a bigger world, — right? But exposed is one thing, but then I it it's hard for me not to beat myself up over letting them get past, — you know, my defenses. — Mhm. — Letting them get close to me and for how

long. Um I have, you know, it's really, as I told you before, it's really important for me to have to choose the people who are around me wisely. And I have an incredible team of people who are not just great at what they do, but who are just have become dear uh friends and confidants and protectors. And I haven't always had that. Um and I and they're not afraid to tell me the truth either. And that's a hugely important thing — um for me. — But it's hard to not beat myself up for certain people, you know, having access to my life that were not should never have had access should never have been a part of my life for many many reasons. — Yeah. I feel like when you're young as well, from having spoken to quite a lot of young talent in the industry, it's almost like you're hoping that the adults around you are making good choices. And you talk about in the book how you were actually given pills before a red carpet to make you feel more confident and how that planted the seeds for so many other — things that came in the future. And it again, you're coming to a point where you're hoping the people around you, especially when you're young, — to help you make better decisions, especially when you start as young as you did. — Yeah. And the person who handed me those pills, I had already developed a very tight relationship and a great bond with them. So when it happened, it I didn't see it as anything inappropriate or negative. I trusted this person and this it was not I didn't just have a great personal relationship with this person, but this person's job is a part of their job was to always protect me. And so I was so used to following the directions of the people that uh that I respected, the people that I worked with. They told me to jump, I jumped. wear this, I wore that. You know, I trusted them more than I ever trusted myself. I wasn't raised to trust myself except for my instincts as an actor. That was instilled in me. But as a person, it was a completely different story. — And at the same time, you're getting this like, you know, huge wins. Like you become one of the most, you know, well-known popular young actors when you land heroes and — it's this huge moment and from the outside it just looks like an incredible accomplishment. What's going through

your heart and mind when that happens in all emotions? What are you experiencing? — The success meant that I my mom was going to be happy with me. So that was hugely um important. Um it also meant that I fit in — that I was Yes. I found my place that I was finally somebody accepted me and I was part of something that involved other people and they became my my crew and my group of friends. I finally felt like I fit in somewhere and my gosh, I made it. Like I remember the first time I walked out of my apartment and paparazzi. I was about 16 years old and um and I had imagined younger, you know, getting to the place in my career where I would get paparazzi and you know what is it going to be like am I going to do like one of those like no don't take a picture of me like it's going to be one of those like just like be perfectly you know beautiful shots and it was just sheer terror. I mean, the shot like when that actually happened, I heard this clicking and I looked up and it was I remember it feeling like I was looking down the barrel of a gun — and it was a guy sitting in his car with his window rolled down and I was I think it was walking my dogs and I was horrified because I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's not the look that I expected to have. " That picture is of me looking terrified. Absolutely terrified and probably going — something like that. That's not the shot you the first want. — Yeah, definitely. — So that's what happened. — Yeah. — You can plan all you want and God less. — Yeah. Definitely. I mean, but you

talked about this, you said this at the start, this idea of just like how your life became used to living for applause, like having to get the applause from your mom and then the community and then of course paparazzi, whatever, right? It's like you kind of see that trend. — Oh yeah. And then it grows and it grew and it went from something that was like kind of cool to something that was incredibly dangerous and incredibly invasive and not just for me but for the people around me for I it felt like the people around like I wasn't safe. The people around me were being affected by it. I was very protective of my little brother, fiercely protective of the people I love, period. And um and especially back then when I was 16 years old, it was a whole different ballgame. Like the paparazzi situation was crossed lines that still blown my mind today that they were that were legal. they were able to do the things that were set, the way that they would box you in while you were driving. I remember coming out of a store once and it was, you know, one person saw me in and suddenly it was over a hundred outside and they kicked me. Um, I just felt this kick on the back of my leg and I realized and when I turned around they had a camera in my face and I realized that that's they were trying to get a reaction out of me cuz I remember a very famous successful publicist sat me down when I was um when I was young and I think when Heroes was about to change my life permanently and he knew this and he sat me down had a whole conversation with me about how to handle um paparazzi. and how to keep your expressions, you know, kind of boring, if you will. Um, but the lengths that people will go to get that shot. And the things that they would say to me at such a young age were appalling. They were truly just mindblowing and shocking. It was wildly dangerous. And I was like, why? Especially after Princess Diana, how has this not changed? How has nobody stepped in — and stopped this? This is crazy. — How did you cope? And like what did you do? How did you deal with all of that? Because that just seems overwhelming. — There was nothing to do. Like that was you feel completely helpless. Yes. Powerless. Helpless. Um, I would get in the car and I drove like a bat at a ha double hockey sticks. Like I would I was I became a NASCAR driver and knock on wood, thank God, nothing ever got hurt. But there's one time I was out trying to outrun them in a rental car and I was going so fast down a street that I had to make a quick right turn. I hit my brakes and instead of the car stopping, it just went for this slide directly into traffic. So, I would um I mean I was able to turn into traffic like just in time in the nick of time like somebody I felt like somebody was watching over me — um and protecting me at that point. And sometimes I just had to go home afterwards. and I went out with a plan to do something and it wasn't safe and I didn't feel like dealing with them all day long. So, I just went home and would go, "Ha, you didn't get your shot. " But I also didn't get to do what I wanted. When I was living on my own, I remember having to call um like taxis to at the time, we didn't have Uber or anything up to my house and I would have to lie down in the back seat like almost on the floor so that they couldn't see the paparazzi that were waiting in the street couldn't see that I was in the car or have a friend pick me up and I would have to hide under yoga mats and things like that. I also didn't realize like we'd go to somewhere like let's say the Grove how many people or somewhere on like Rodeo, how many people were paid money to do this to be a celebrity spotter, — right? — And you know, you think you you fooled them and you got out of there and it just takes one person to the wrong person to see you and there goes your day. — Yeah. Wow.

— Wow. I believe it was around the same time in the book you talk about meeting Vlad for the first time when you're doing the show. And I was wondering what do you when you reflect back on it now and meeting him, what version of you were you then? — When I met him, I was 19. I liked myself back then. Actually, when I think back on it, I felt like I held my own well. I found a lot of joy in life. I was a really happy person. Um I hadn't had anything, you know, I hadn't lost people I'd loved or been through anything that had negatively shaped me. So I was in a really good mental spot, healthy mental spot when I met him. I was full of piss and vinegar, as my mom would say. And did it move fast? Did you were you, you know, was it just instantly you both know knew that there was something there at the time? — He was not my type at first. I mean, he was like looking at a Greek statue. Like that's what it was like being in his presence. Like you I just studied his face. He looked chiseled out of out of, you know, stone, out of marble. You're like, — so big. Yeah. I mean, his features just like everything about him was so fierce. — And I was so small, but the personality that came out of him was uh surprisingly gentle and kind and made me very curious. But it I had just gone through a breakup with a co-star that I was still working with. So I wasn't really in the headsp space of fully moving past that breakup yet. So it took an it was another year. It was when I was 20 years old that Vlad and I actually connected and started dating. Um I think they I we were supposed to meet up. I was at the Super Bowl. We were supposed to meet up once when I was still 19. And I guess I was supposed to call him and I never did. And there he was, you know, the heavyweight champion of the world and going apparently he was very pissed off that I never that he was waiting around for my phone call. He was like, "Who does this girl think she is? Does she know who I am? " Yeah. He's not he's not a godgy person, but I remember his reaction to that being very funny. — That's fair. That's fair. — Yeah. — As the heavyweight champion. — So, it took a year. I met him uh we kept in touch and then actually I went my first fight was for my I brought my little brother to his brother's fight for my little brother's birthday. — So, it was a very special time. And then Vlad and I stayed in touch and um and then started a relationship. — Yeah. What in the part in your book

that I found like something that I was totally unaware of and I'm going to read from it here. — Mhm. — You talk about this is so while you were on Nashville, you obviously become a mother — and it was this idea that Nashville was almost writing based on your life and writing around you. You talk about the story lines for your character Juliet Barnes — and how unnatural they mirrored what you were going through in your personal life and you write this specifically. I was suffering from debilitating anxiety and an addiction I couldn't shake and I had to live through it twice. First at home as Hayden and then in front of millions as Juliet. — Yeah. And that really struck me because you know I think we all watch TV and film and everything and we don't really it's almost like we believe you are that character anyway. — Absolutely. And you don't really ever know what the real character is until you and it's you can in an interview, — but if you don't see that if you only see someone for 3 minutes on a late night show or a morning show or whatever, — right? You have no — you have no real sense of who they are beyond oh well Aiden and Juliet like that's who she is, right? like — on TV in what they see you see in the news and what you look like the — you see headlines and news gossip and all that kind of stuff. You see the TV show and then you see pictures. You're absolutely right. — And that's all you get. And this is why I really appreciate just how I just want to acknowledge and for anyone who's going to read this book, like you get to see someone who's I believe lived through a lot of hardship but has this ability to reflect and introspect about what's happening. And when you put it that way and you're like, "Oh, I didn't realize Hayden's going through this. She's living through the reality. " And I want to talk to you about the anxiety that you're experiencing. And then at the same time, you're living it twice because now you're having to act here at work — and they're writing around you being pregnant to have the show continue and then after that as well. And so talk to me about where the debilitating anxiety was coming from and what it felt like to live it twice. — It felt like it never ended. I didn't know where Juliet began and Hayden ended. In the beginning when I first started doing Nashville, I thought, well, it's just a coincidence that our lives are have so many similarities. It must be. And then as the years went on, the episodes went on and everything kept match started matching up from, you know, the who Juliet Barnes was dating to being an alcoholic to postpartum depression to losing her child, basically abandoning her child. Um, and then it was like, okay, this you guys are just mirroring my life. And we would get the we wouldn't get the episodes very far ahead of time. So to go to them and say, "Hey, you got to change this and that. " Wasn't anything I was used to doing. I was just used to doing my job and making it work. But it felt like the day never ended. And we would shoot 10 minutes out of the year, year end, 12 to 20 hour days. And I never thought I was a method actor. Um and I've worked with method actors who when they play a character role, they never they never jump in. They don't jump in and out of the character. They are the character for the entirety of the filming process. Shooting something for six years, 10 months out of the year, that's not really that's not what you want to do. That but wasn't was unavoidable because it was my life. I couldn't come up from for air from it. There was no break from it. And here I was playing this very deeply emotional dark character. We had so much alike but we were different in who we were as people. But especially when I was on set, even during breaks, I didn't even realize that I was taking I was becoming her constantly and I wasn't therefore taking care of myself, able to take care of myself mentally and decompress and process what's going on in my life. nor did I want to talk about it because I had just spent all day acting it out and crying. I just felt like I was constant I was holding my breath all the time and I couldn't get away from it and you know you're in a contract and I was I became desperate and I was doing every that's why I turned to substances cuz the anxiety that I start I started having the panic attacks that I started having um I used to have ner nerves a lot and I had I had stage fright I've had stage fright since I a kid. But that those good nerves that keep you on your toes at some point turned into genuine like genuine uh anxiety that made me incapable of functioning properly or thinking clearly. It would make me physically shake. So, I was self-medicating and looking for relief at the bottle bottom of a bottle and it was the only thing that worked. But I needed to numb. I needed to self-numb. I needed my brain to take a trip. I needed to go on a vacation. I needed it to not think about all these ugly things for just a little while. And I didn't find myself able to do that without the help of um of a drink. Yeah. I mean, explain to me the uh the

complexity of and I asked this from the perspective of having so many friends who've gone through postpartum depression — and it just not being talked about enough. — Yeah. And whether it be even initially when it happened, I remember speaking to a lot of my male friends and them not understanding what their partner was going through only then to realize that we were just unaware of, you know, the amount of women that go through postpartum depression. Talk to me about the complexity of the emotion of having your baby girl and the emotions that come with that as being a mother and then the postpartum depression that follows that. From a as a young age, I always dreamt of becoming a mom. Like I it was something that I always knew that I would be, always wanted to be. And I had all these ideas in my head of the kind of per mother that I was going to be. have cameras in every room and I was going to capture this and that get them into all these different extracurricular activities and made sure that they spoke different languages and like I had a this beautiful plan in my head and then I had my daughter and I knew something was just terribly wrong. And now there's a lot of stigma around postpartum and misunderstanding and it's on a there's it's on a spectrum. It's on a scale and fortunately you I never felt any hostility or negativity towards my child, you know, thankfully. Um, but I wasn't connecting with her the way that I knew I should be and that I was full of stress and anxiety all the time. And what I was doing to suppress those emotions was not normal and it was not healthy. I was miserable. I was in tears all the time. um you know even though the alcohol helped you know my nervous system calm down it is a depressant. So over time it made things worse not better in a moment or two it might feel and give you the illusion that it's making things better but ultimately it becomes um backfires and it becomes a disaster. But Vlad was incredibly supportive even though he had no idea what was going on. And I on either because I had never been around anybody who had ever experienced postpartum depression before. I had never heard it spoken about. Um, you know, my mom, the females in my life, nobody ever said anything about it. All of their stories were of these beautiful positive moments of joy and love. And I always say expectation leads to disappointment. But in this way, I had of course I had expectations and they were good and they were positive and they were going to be life was going to be great. And at about 4 months old, I finally um went to Vlad and I said I said, "I need I need help. I can't live like this anymore. You know, something is terribly wrong. " And he said, "Okay, let's get you some help. " I went to um a facility during the hiatus of the show, so it was kept um private, but I was there for alcoholism. They were treating me for alcoholism, and nobody ever said anything about postpartum depression there. So, I felt unfixable. I felt like there was no way the way out of it. And I was trying to process the idea that maybe I was going to be depressed like this for the rest of my life. And this was just the new normal. So that was terrifying. I had this gorgeous, sweet angel child, healthy. I was so lucky and blessed. And I was just a mess. And there is nothing that I could I could do to fix it properly. And there was it felt like there was nobody around who understood because there was so much stigma around it. And because it's so misunderstood. It took me probably about 10 months to really realize what it was that was going on of me researching and figuring it out myself. — Wow. Oh, you had to do it yourself. Cuz

I know also you talk about how like when you finally did talk about it, you even lost an endorsement deal. — Yep. Neutrogena I was with for 10 years. And I mean they have morals clauses which was a huge had a huge impact in my life. Um because I was a teenager and I had all the paparazzi around me catching all of these gory moments like every moment every cigarette that I smoked or bad outfit or oh she's looking chunky in a bathing suit. Oh, she has a fat vagina. I mean I went through all of that, you know. They were there for everything. Neutrogena was a huge part of my life. I had the morals clauses. They caught absolutely everything. And of all the things to that they would fire me over, this was the last thing that I thought they would ever fire me over. And when I actually went out onto stage, um, it was live with Kelly and Michael, I had no intention of or plan to talk about postpartum depression. It just came up and I was just being honest. And never for a second did I think that anyone or care that anyone would have a bad reaction to it. It was my truth. And so when I got that call that Neutrogena wanted to fire me over that and my representative at the time said that's illegal. You can't do that. And even though you know she saved the day that year, I knew that was going to be it. That there I was not going to be invited back the next year. And I had worked with these people for 10 years. And I remember not hearing a word from anybody. Not a great working with you for 10 years. Not a nice a nice — hope you're okay. — Yeah. Hope you're good. We wish you well. And I remember that really breaking my — my heart. Um I wouldn't change it for the world. I wouldn't take it back. But as I said, of all the things that I had been caught doing, that being the thing that was where they drew the line and it was immoral was shocking — to me. And it made me realize and understand exactly what people thought of women who experience postpartum depression and how misunderstood it is, how much stigma there is around it, and how I mean, we're already in pain. — Mhm. We are already like the worst possible thing, one of the worst possible things in the world to happen to a woman is already happening to her. The last thing we need is, you know, the icing on the cake, you know, and feeling so judged and in such a

negative way. — What do you want people to know about postpartum depression that you think they miss? that it's real, — that it's not something we make up. want. It's not um, you know, that we've we've lost our marbles and it's not something that we want to go through. And we're not lying when we tell you something's wrong. and we're in tears for absolutely no reason. Like we don't have control over this and this would be the last thing that we would ever want to experience or go through. We want to be with our children, our child, our brand new child and have be filled with joy and feel like the luckiest person in the world and you know capture every moment. And for anyone to think otherwise is just misinformed. And uh yeah, I I just I think people need to know a lot more about it, need to understand. — Did the facilitator you visited help you with the alcoholism or what finally actually helped with that? — Oh, I struggled with that for years. It was an on and off uh battle for a really long time. And getting out of that uh depression was really difficult. and the fact that I didn't have the time to really spend on um on healing myself and and fixing myself, figuring out, you know, how to navigate this and get back to my old self because I was on Nashville and we were shooting so much. I mean, there at one point I did have to say to the show, I have to go get treatment. you're going to have to write me out of the script. Which upset a lot of people and made me feel awful because I I'd always prided myself in being a professional. Um but it was incredibly important for me to get my head screwed on straight or I was going to, you know, I was just going to off the deep end. I was I felt myself sinking further and further into this dark hole that I just could not climb out of. — When I was reading the book, it just felt like the challenges just get tougher and tougher and tougher as you kind of, you know, go through it with you. And they also seem kind of again just as your career in the beginning stages was almost not a choice. — Mhm. — All of these things also feel that way where it's kind of like just happening to you and — Yeah. — because of you know just there's not a it's not a choice to bring these things on. No, — they're coming off, — you know, of course, postpartum depression and everything else that's happening through that and not and also not having these conversations like today, you know, millions of people listen to this conversation and — be able to have a better understanding of what that means and what that looks like. And today, the conversation around these things is growing. It's still not where it needs to be yet. And sadly, there are still terrible headlines and terrible gossip and — terrible stories made up about people. And but these conversations are beginning to happen and you go, "Okay, well hopefully the next person doesn't have to — go through it. — Go through the fact of not knowing where to go for help or be seen as — I'll just get over it or move on or there's something wrong with you — or whatever the ridiculous things we all hear are in those scenarios. "

— Yeah. I think it was around this same time that you talk about the book where the custody of your daughter shifts from, you know, over to Vlad and to Ukraine, I believe, as well. — And I feel like that was especially talked about terribly where there's so many speculations and so many opinions and so many assumptions on why that's happening. Could you tell us what was really happening? I mean, the idea that anybody would think that I would just give away my child and be okay with it is heartbreaking couldn't be further from the truth. You know, as you said, I was struggling with mental health and anxiety and the postpartum and having to act my way through it and just feeling like I I completely lost myself. Um, and I think a misconception is that I have been in the past forced into treatment when in fact I have been the one who sought it out who was saying — I desperately need help. I don't, you know, I know this is going to look terrible, but I am I cannot live like this anymore. And even though Vlad didn't understand it, the people around me didn't know what was going on. I They were supportive. I went to go get help. They didn't know what was going on. And so it became this horrible cycle for years of battling depression and anxiety and alcoholism and substance abuse and me just trying to find my way back my way out of this darkness. Um in any I would have done anything and tried anything. Um, but it wasn't until Vlad and until Ka uh was 2 years old, about two 2 and 1/2 years old that uh Vlad decided that he thought it would be best for her to live in Europe. And when that first happened, I did not have a good reaction to it. I went like mother lion. I would have burnt the world down for my child. So that was incredibly difficult. Not you know the fact that my child wasn't going to be with me all day every day was um was I I mean it just you can't put words to it. It's just a really intense lay, you know, feeling that or multiple feelings really like layered together. But um but I realized that, you know, she had been traveling back and forth for so many years and because I was working on the show and because Vlad had to prepare for fights and as a businessman in his own right, she had to go back and forth between the US and Europe and sometimes we would go together and sometimes she would go with the nanny. So she had spent a lot of time over there. She had family, she had friends, she had extracurricular activities, she had a really she already had a beautiful life and she understood the languages and was starting to speak them. So by the time I finally got healthy, I felt like it would have been unfair of me to and selfish of me to try to pull her out away from this life that she had been created. Um that she was living an incredible life. Um she's an incredible little girl. so happy and speaks five languages and and rides horses and um knows that she's got two parents that love her and she I I know in my heart that she feels supported. I have an incredible relationship with her. I go I travel as much as I can. I see her. I do spend a lot of time on FaceTime with her. Um, but we talk about really deep things. We have a really intense, incredible um, bond and I'm very grateful for that. And I know that she knows that she has two parents who would do anything in the world to make sure that she is happy and healthy mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually. Um, and she in no way feels abandoned. Um, and that's something that I've made sure to be stay on top of and be very uh aware of. And I think it's also good to lead by example as a parent. She gets to watch. She didn't get just get born with one parent in the limelight with who is famous and powerful, you know, she was born with two and two on completely separate continents and in their own ways, but she's very proud of watching her mom and dad uh kick butt and do what they do. She she's our biggest fan. I think it makes her feel like she can accomplish anything. You can just see that she is good and she is solid and she she feels loved because of the way that she's able to love herself and self to watch as a parent your 11year-old already have this beautiful ability to love other people and love themselves is you just can't ask for more than that. Yes. So I think there's been a common and you know a very common misconception that I just gave up my child when there is that could not be farther from the truth. So — I hope people that are watching this I hope it's a little clearer and I hope becomes clear in the book. Yeah, I think when they read the book as well, there's you see so much of the context that I think we miss in everything else. And there's this really powerful line in

the book that you share where you say you grieve not being, this was at that time, you grieve not being the mother you thought you'd be. And I wanted to ask you, how do you hold that grief without letting it define the mother you are today? The grief has definitely gotten the best of me many times, many, many times. Um, but it's transformed from grief. It was grief in the beginning. Um, but because of the relationship that I do have with her and how things ultimately uh played out, I'm incredibly grateful to her. She has an incredible father, an incredible family. Um, and I no long I don't feel even though it's not what I wanted to happen and hoped motherhood was going to be or what it would look like. I'm so lucky to that it turned out the way it did and that she is um safe and and a wonderful well-rounded person that I that we have the bond that we have, which is it's something that I, you know, was terrified wasn't going to happen when she was taken away, that I was going to have to fight really hard to have any sort of relationship with her. And it ended up in a lot of ways being a blessing. — I always want her here. You know, I always miss her. I always want her to, you know, be and to have my arms wrapped around her. But that's just not the way life is right at this moment. But I do believe that, you know, there will be a day where she is an adult and she's able to make her own decisions and go wherever she wants. And I have faith that she is going to come to me and that we're going to have an incredible relationship and bond and friendship that a lot of parents don't get to have with their kids. — Thank you for sharing that. It's always

incredible how like things don't turn out the way we expect them to and yet it seems like you found a way to work at it and work on yourself and try to make the shifts and changes you need to. Whether it was, you know, with the alcoholism, whether it was getting yourself up out of spaces that you didn't want to be in to try and be the person that you — That's the only option to me. That's yeah is you keep getting no matter how many times you fall. You keep getting up and dust yourself off. It's it's and you and you keep going. It's how you what you do with these failures or falling on your face. It's what you do after that really counts. — It's how you handle that really counts and matters. And I'll never stop fighting to be good. — Yeah. I mean you were mentioning to me that also the rel you have a strong relationship with Vlad which helps — this situation. Yeah. — Yeah. Vlad and I are very close. We all three of us talk all the time. He travels a lot when he's in Europe, too. So sometimes we have a three-way Facetime going on. Um and sometimes um it's the two of them and me. But yeah, he's been incredibly supportive. I mean, she's he's brought her over here. She's known her great grandparents. Um they've been a part of her life. My um I've lost my grandpy and my papa, but they were able to know her, which was really important to me. And she still has my nana and my grandma. She calls nana super nana. Super Nana and she is Super Nada. Um, yeah, we have a we have a great relationship and Vlad and I are still best friends. There's not many people who know me on the on this in this world as well as he does. And I know that we still have an incredible amount of love for each other and most importantly, we have an incredible amount of respect for each other. We made promises that um something that unfort I unfortunately grew up with was uh hearing a lot of negative talk from um my mother about my father and that had a really negative impact on me. It hurt to constantly you know hear the per the person that you love be put down. So, we made a promise to each other that we would never say anything negative about one another to our daughter — and that both of us have stuck to that promise and we talk each other up to our daughter and talk positively about each other and I check in with her and make sure she's, you know, being respectful and that she's loving loves her dad and that she knows he's a hero and one of the bravest people I know and she loves both of us to death. So — yeah, I mean it's I feel like it's an intention we all have to kind of repeat the good things our parents did well and try to not repeat the things that maybe they didn't do so well. And it's almost like we're always trying to be — I think those of us who are trying to be on the path of awareness. Yeah. Evolve and just say, "Hey, I'm going to make other mistakes. " — We all are because we're human. But — going to try and do my best in this capacity. I feel like — absolutely — something we were talking about earlier about repeating patterns and people that we attract into our life. And you talked

about this and you were mentioning it to me earlier. You talked about, you know, surviving your abusive relationship with your ex. — Yes. — And I just I wanted to ask you about because like I said before, it's like every time you go further in the book and deeper in the book, I can tell that you know your truth and you know who you are. And as you said earlier in our conversation today, you're like, "But I don't know if I'm always good at knowing or trusting my gut or — following through on it. " — Yeah. Why do you think that is? — I feel like I've let myself down so many times and let other people I've just I mean I worked so hard to create an this incredible life and career. And I basically burnt it all to the ground essentially and had to, you know, start climbing up that mountain. Um, and it happened, you know, more than once. And having to try to get out of my own way was the most difficult part of it. It was almost like I would like self-implode and d and destroy something good that I had going on before anybody else got a chance to uh it was like instead of setting myself up for failure, I knew I was going to fail. So, just it might as well happen sooner rather than later. And it made me stop trusting myself. I mean, I wasn't even raised to trust myself. As I said before, like my instincts, aside from my instincts as an actor, as a human being, I was not like I was not taught to really trust myself. I was taught to trust these people around me. It's been a really long road and a really hard road. Um, and a really stressful road trying to get back to that trust I had um at one point when I was younger in my in myself and how, you know, knowing how important it is that you listen to yourself, your gut. Every time that I have not listened to my gut, I have always regretted it that I found myself in a terrible position. — The abuse, the fact that I allowed this person not only into my life, but for how long I put up with it. And um this is something this is a topic that is I've been journal journaling a lot about it. um trying to organize my thoughts and my feelings. And I did journal last night and for the first time I really feel like I was able to put into words what has been going on for the past decade of my life in regards to um the abuse. And I was actually going to ask if I could read it because I think it's really important. This is this topic is really important for me to word properly, word well and so that so the people listening really understand what I'm saying. — Please. Yeah. — It took me a long time to finally see the situation clearly. I've had to do a lot of soulsearching and therapy around this topic because allowing somebody to get away with harming me was so unlike me. The more I thought about it and analyzed it, the more connections I made between the abuse I was allowing to transpire and the abuse I've gone through in my past. They say that you end up marrying one of your parents, and no, I'm not married, but I found a very interesting connection between this abusive behavior and my mother's abusive behavior. Even though they would both shake their heads and say I was crazy to think there was anything similar about the two of them, there definitely was. I realized that I was more afraid of being alone than being abused. And in order to be around that kind of behavior, it took me dulling my senses and numbing myself with substances in order to silence that rational voice in my head that was telling me exactly what was going on. and the many reasons why I needed to get myself out of this toxic relationship and as far away from this person as possible. Somehow, every time I found the strength to get away from my abusers, they would always find their way back into my life one way or another. It was like being on a hamster wheel in this endless dizzying cycle. And the craziest part and the hardest part was to understand was that the physical abuse would come out of left field. But it was always when he was drinking. Same as my mom. We could be dancing and joking. Then a switch would flip and suddenly it was on. Something would snap and it was like watching a predator suddenly smell blood. I was dealing with this Dr. Jackal Mr. hide situation. I tried to fight back in every way that I could think of. I took every approach from standing my ground to attempting to calm the situation to running and hiding from it until he sobered up. Then once he was sober, that good part of him would be back and he would see the damage he had done and he was devastated and apologetic and it seemed so honest and genuine that I was torn. I thought back to everything I've done wrong in the past and the forgiveness I was shown. So, I think a part of me felt an obligation to be just as forgiving. I desperately wanted to make him a better person. I wanted to fix him. I'm a really strong person at my core and anyone who knows me was shocked that I would ever allow anything like this to happen. I have this bright powerful light in me that comes on, but then it would dim around that kind of intense conflict. I found myself trying to be smaller and weaker just to avoid a battle because there's no reasoning with the unreasonable and as strong as I am, I couldn't physically stand up to a grown man. I know I have a big heart and I always try to see the good in people in people. So much so that it's been to my detriment at times. The worst part was that by allowing the cycle to continue, it hurt the people I love who came to my rescue. And I cannot allow that to continue to happen. In order to finally get off the hamster wheel and put an end to the cycle of abuse with him and with other toxic people in my life, I had to remind myself how strong I am. I had to envision the life I want for myself. And most importantly, I had to take accountability for enabling unforgivable behavior. — Thank you for — Yeah. — sharing that from your journal. Very, very personal and appreciate you, you know, letting us in that deeply as you do in the book and in what happened in the last couple of nights, I believe. Um, — thank you for letting me share. I feel like I mean, that's the first time I've shared that. So, I'm feeling the weight this weight come off my shoulders at this moment. — How does it feel to say out loud? — You know when you feel so much pressure on your chest and it and those that anxiety and nerves and then you're relieved by some by something like that. It feels like an elephant stepped off my chest. — I feel overwhelmed in a positive way. I feel like I finally did it and I got to do it in my own words. In this moment, I feel more trust in myself than I have in years. So, I got a little bit of me back just now. That's so beautiful to hear. I mean, it's you just said now that in your own words and I feel that I feel like this entire book is a reclaiming of who you are and — Yeah. One step at a time. But that it's been a 10year dilemma and trauma after trauma. And just to be able to explain it at all, I never thought that I would be able to put it into words. — You said in there that you and I think a

lot of us, we tolerate abuse because we'd rather do that than be alone. And I think when you look back on that, you can beat yourself up to say, why didn't I leave earlier? And as you were saying, like I'm stronger than that. Like why wouldn't I stand up for myself? And at the same time, there has to be a sense of compassion for oneself to say you you're just doing the best you could in that moment. — Coming from a good place, — talk to me about that. — That was one thing that was that made it all the more confusing to me is because I knew throughout I've known throughout the whole thing that I didn't I wasn't doing anything to deserve it. And that's why I say in that part like talk about how it would come out of left field. It didn't take me saying anything wrong. doing mistakes or jealousy or like there was no catalyst. And suddenly it would be I would be being dragged by the hair and it was like what just happened? What did I do? What and what can I do to make go back to you know 2 seconds ago like what what's going on? Um, and as I say, you can't reason with the unreasonable. And it was like the person that you love just was disappeared. You I would look in his eyes and they would be vacant like and then it was terrifying. And I've always been interested in psychology and so trying to understand what was going on. I mean, I was like going through the DSM like am I in my head and trying to, you know, trying to figure out, you know, is it schizoph schizophrenia? Is it paranoid? Like what in the heck is going on? because it was only when alcohol um was involved. But no amount of alcohol could ever make me capable of doing something like that, especially over and over and over and over again. — I'm so sorry you had to go through that. It was like I don't know maybe it was my ego like he was in my ring and I felt like I was not going to let him you know win the battle. Um, and by me not the ide what would be winning to me would be fixing him, being able to fix him and make him better because I saw some good in there and wanted to bring that to the surface. Um, but I had no control over that and some people don't want to change and you just have to accept that as disappointing as it is. — Again, I think you're being hard on yourself. Like I think, you know, there's a sure there's, you know, all of and by the way, we we're all people pleasers. We're all control freaks. We're all we all have all of that in us because of how we we've all been raised. And there's a sense that we all want to fix people and make people better. And of course, we're working on these things, but we all share this. And — it's But it should never lead to that. No, — you know. Yeah. — I No. The And the fact it still baffles me that it ever went there, that I ever allowed it to, that I ever stuck around for it. I mean, it's just so unlike me. But I think it that a huge part of it is that being alone piece. I had just finished when I met him. I just finished uh Nashville and just moved back to LA and I was lonely and nobody was present in the beginning. It was the person that I fell in love with was great. So the Mr. I did not show up until I was already in love with the Dr. Jackal. — Were you able to talk to anyone? Did you

feel you could reach out to anyone or did it just feel so unsafe? — I felt embarrassed, humiliated. Um I felt ashamed. I wanted to keep my friends and the people that I loved as far away from the situation as humanly possible because there was no understanding. It didn't it wasn't rational. It didn't make sense and um I wanted to protect them from feeling the need to protect me. I just knew there was no explaining it without getting the reaction of what are you doing? what are you thinking? And I would go, — I genuinely don't know. I don't know what in me is is putting up with this is allowing this to happen. I really don't. And as I said before, I never there's never for a moment did I think that I deserved it or that it was okay at all. That was that was never a thing. I mean, I use the term forgiveness very lightly because as hard as I tried to forgive, I'm not unable to do that. You don't forgive and forget those kinds of things. And that's not just the physical abuse, but it's also the emotional abuse that leaves the deepest scars. The bruises might fade, but you're left with these incredibly deep emotional scars from gaslighting and being made to feel like it was it's your fault. And I think I was caught at that very that perfect mo time where I was incredibly vulnerable and incredibly weak. He prayed on that on my vulnerability. — What did it take to finally get out?

Like what does that take? Because I feel so many people stay there. How long were you tolerating this for? — Well, I thought I at one point I thought I had gotten out of it and gotten away from it, but I I'm It's like we we've talked about before. It's like this like abusers, they weave themselves like weeds in into your life and there's always something that they left behind. There's also have to come back for. There was there's always something that they find to keep that connection keep you on the hook, keep that connection with you no matter where you go. that they will always find you and find an inn, find a way to slather back into your life. So, I went from, you know, really wanting to keep my the people, my loved ones away from it to that's it. I've snapped. You don't pull out a gun and wave it around. You only pull it out. this is it for — but you don't raise wave it around. You only pull it out if you're going to pull that trigger. — And I finally decided, you know, that I needed to pull the trigger. And I called in um the heavy hitters and the people that were going to protect me and make sure that he had no way back in that this was going to be a a done deal finally. I always hoped that this was going to happen but me one day. And as I said, I thought that I really thought I had done it and I was capable of doing it by myself, but I needed an incredible amount of support and backup in order to make sure that there was no way for him to find his way back in. — What did it take for you to take that step? Like what had to happen for you to say enough is enough? and — finding out that the good that I was holding on to that I thought I saw in him was not real. That it was realizing all of the lies. I mean, you got to be really good to pull the wall over my eyes and that he was. But once I knew that good was not real, that good that good side of him, the big heart that I saw was just made up and was just acting um just really good acting. Then I had the ability to let go and let myself off the hook. That I didn't have to care anymore and feel guilty anymore about parting from him. Whatever struggles he goes through are his and they're no longer mine to clean up and I don't have to worry about it anymore. I've released myself. what you just said there is so real and so true and I honestly honor your vulnerability and clarity because it's what you just said this idea of accepting that person's good isn't real because that's the thing that keeps finding their way back and keeps appealing to someone who wants to help and solve and fix and it's just believing oh no but there is there there's that there is that and you keep thinking it's real even if it's small — and you don't see it that often but then when you finally accept, oh no, it's not real. It's — it's actually the reason that they keep getting away with this behavior. — And it's heartbreaking to find out that it's that it wasn't real. I mean, I remember finding texts and that he'd been having relationships and this and that. And one of the things that that I thought was great about him is how loyal he of a person he was. And when I realized how long that had been a farce like I was like I have somebody ripped off the rosecolored glasses and I see clearly now. I see clearly now and there is nothing left to as you said hang on to. There's nothing to to keep me there or invested or forgiving in any way. — Yeah. When you say heavy hitters, you mean the FBI had to get involved, right? Like had to get to that level or not really. — Oh. Um — No. — I mean they No, he went to jail. — Yeah. — Um and they did have to — get involved. Um but he managed to weasle his way back in even after that for uh a little bit. Um so had to get him out again. It was it was like this period of time of like back and forth um battle and I mean as I said I thought I had gotten away from him for this big period of time and then for you know certain reason I'm I won't go into you know gory the gory details of exactly what happened but — but don't believe just what you see in a a picture, there's so much more going on. Truth is stranger than fiction. It truly is. Like you couldn't you can't write this stuff. You can't make this up. as I was reading the book and thinking about all the headlines that you've had to live through and the conversation and the gossip and the you know the everything that comes with it and then you know you did this people interview I think it was like a year ago or something as well and then again the — rumor mill begins about questioning your sobriety and how you're talking and everything and then we learn actually it's because you're grieving and going through so much more behind the scenes and I keep thinking like when will we finally stop like assuming — right — that we know what's going on in someone's life or we know exactly why they are the way they are or who they are. And when will we allow them the opportunity to tell us? Because it's a real human with a real brain, with a real mind, with a real well-being, with a real emotions. And yes, no matter how successful someone is or whatever it may be, it's hearing things about you that are untrue are just so like at the core just unsettling for any of us. And we know what that feels like at school. — in a family. And — when somebody says something, it's like there's no changing people's minds. It doesn't matter really, you know, what you say, you know, when I was younger, my father was accused of hitting my mother. And even though I knew the the real story, when you say something like that about somebody, there's no convincing anybody that that's not the truth and that didn't happen. There are just certain things that people go, eh, I'm not buying it. I saw it for my for myself. when you're like if you saw the big picture you would you it would go you would go aha oh no it makes sense. — Yeah. It's like watching Yeah. I feel like it's like watching a 30 seconds of a movie and deciding who the bad guy is and the good guys and — and why they're in that scenario and then you're like all right well if you watch the whole movie or you walk in halfway into the theaters and — it doesn't make any sense. And yeah, I

just I you know, I really feel like this is me. This book does that for people who want to understand, you know, what the picture really looks like. And you sadly, I mean, you've talked about him throughout, you know, you sadly lost your brother 3 years ago. And you describe him in the book as the heartbreak of my life, always right there in the center of who I am. wanted to ask you like how did losing him change the way you see all of this because it feels like the hardest one even though everything we've talked about is extremely heavy and hard. — Oh yeah. There's uh there was there's nothing in my life that feels like losing my other half like the other half that I was that was born to be my the ying to my yang. Um, and we were so close and especially being the older sibling who it's your job to protect them and keep them safe and not being able to is I mean heartbreaking doesn't even begin to cover it. I would need to a dictionary to go through all the words for all the feelings that you know that go through your mind but I I've I mean I collapsed and it's stayed with me. I know time is like the best is the best healer um generally but it's been 3 years and every year it's gotten it's changed the heartbreak has changed but losing him and realizing how much of life I was going to have to go through alone and without him where I when I always saw him as being there. you know, the day that my parents are not here anymore, I'm gonna have to do alone. And the fact that he's not here to be a part of my daughter's life. And the fact that he's I mean, there's so many times I want to call him all the time. and he was my you best friend and like when he first died I was remember screaming I don't want to live in a world where he doesn't exist. So I unfortunately had to but he seemed so alive in my head still. He was such a big personality and he just like I no matter how no matter what like he was just one of those people I never thought that anything could take him down or take him away. He was so good too. And it makes you so angry to see so that there are thriving in this world and then one so good that's just taken — from you. Why? It's not fair. It doesn't make sense. So, that's something I just I don't think I'll ever I'll never get over it. It'll just evolve. Luckily, he was an amazing artist and I'm I have his paint some of his paintings and that keeps part of him alive for me. He left that be behind beautiful things behind but and I feel him with me. I know that he's protecting me from where he is and was needed elsewhere, but I wish I would send him back to me. I'm so sorry for your loss and hearing about him from you and reading more in the book. It's about your relationship. It's um so special to have an amazing sibling relationship even when you grew up in a home where things were maybe a bit more complex. — Yeah. — That becomes kind of like your — Yeah. He was my rock my were the only two he was the only other person who fully understood everything about me. I mean we grew up in the same position seeing the same things. M — um yeah, we joked about the same things. We laughed cried about the same things. We were if we weren't 5 years apart and you would think we were personalitywise twin, you know, twins. — So, you know, to lose somebody who understands you on that level. Yeah. And feeling like I failed to keep him safe was really hard. And of all the people that should have understood him and been there and been able to protect him, it should have been me. And I did try and I was shaking the people around me going, "Wake up to what's going on. This is serious. " You know, his struggle with addiction was serious. And I mean I remember before he was 18 saying begging my parents to send him to military school um before he was capable of making decisions for himself that they he needed to they needed to do this for his safety and he needed to be disciplined and as much as I loved his free speech Spirit spiritedness. Is that a word? Spiritedness. Yes. He was such a deep and emotional person. He was so beautiful. I mean, you think about I think about the way that I'm able to forgive like and and how I'm a first person to see someone struggle and I will be the first person there. like he was me time 100. — It was just too much. I think it was too much to be him. It was over overwhelming. This the way he thought was overwhelming. The way he felt was overwhelming. So he had to numb, too. — So I I get it. And I just wish I could have done something differently. — Yeah. It's hard when you love people and see them do that and you have a deeper understanding of it because you've been there as well yourself and know what that can look like and feel like and but again it's too much pressure for you too. It's like, you know, you have a big heart and you care a lot, but be kinder to yourself cuz you can't, you know, solve and say fix everything and everyone. It's — a lot. — I feel like that's something that they need to teach in school to children like how to be kind to yourself. teach them about negative self-t talk — because that's something that we're all guilty of. And it's horrible what it does to us. what we've found out scientifically that it does to us and our energy and our the way we think and the just the physical and emotional mental effects it has on us. I feel it's like it's really important for people for to understand that even though it might be something small in their minds that it's it's a big deal to talk to yourself like that. And people ask, you know, would you talk to a friend the way you talk to yourself? And most of the time people say no. Right. — Yeah. and the pressure we put on ourselves to solve everything and fix everything and be there for everyone all the time. It's — it's a wonderful intention and a desire, but it's impossible to live up to forever. — Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Agreed. — Yeah. No matter how much you care and love someone, it's a it's impossible. But I'm so sorry for your loss. And yeah, it's one of those things that never goes away, but you know, you get to like you said beautifully that he's still living with you and you still feel him and still feel him protecting you from wherever you know he is. That that's a really beautiful approach to grief. I can't imagine

how much it took to write this book and we we're only talking about specific events that we're diving into and there's so much more inside when people will read it and learn so much more about everything we're talking about. But I can't imagine just how much excavating it took and then — Mhm. — to add to it all. You write about in the book how you had a stalker and through the isolation through the you know and I'm just like — just keeps getting better. How does that feel to be going through grief to be isolated and then be dealing with that on top of everything that you've gone through that you've shared today? — I was they have that saying when it rains it pours. I feel that all the time. We go through periods of times where things are great and then everything will go wrong all at once. And I don't know if it's Mercury in retrograde or the something in the air like what is going on to make all of these h things happen all at once. Um but the experience with him is with the man who stalked me was terrifying. And this man was not just a a stalker who was a big fan. like he was genuinely mentally unwell and leaving message after message about how he was going to bring his katana sword and decapitate and um and he was I had to actually cancel um speaking engagements that I had because he was flying and he was waiting for me there. Now, I've had stalkers before in the past who are all talk right and no action and you go after a while you go, okay, they're not really going to do this is somebody who's just has the time to sit here and do this. But then there are those that you realize are incredibly dangerous and they mean what they say and the FD FBI uh and Secret Service had to get involved. And um I mean I thank them both all of them from the bottom of my heart for getting him and for putting him away. It did just recently get out. So, — wow. Um I've — that's you know it's I'm feeling you know all these different emot emotions going on what having ex I like the way you say it excavated my life and written this book and put it all out there very emotional topics then to deal with something like this on top of it and knowing that he just got out to of jail recently um is scary. The whole experience was just to deal with somebody that's that unhinged is terrifying. It's because it goes back to that you can't reason with the unreasonable and you have no idea what they're capable of when you don't know what people somebody is capable of. I mean, we've all seen people too and things that we could we would never imagine them people being capable of doing. and to feel like you're sitting in limbo and just and you have no idea if they're going to show the stories that we've heard in the past of people showing up and just boom, you're done. You're you're gone. You we to deal with somebody like that that is one of the most terrifying feelings in the world. — Yeah. Can't even begin to imagine. I'm happy that you're — It was the icing on the cake. It was very thick. — I'm happy that you're protected and that you're taking the right precautions and measures because you're absolutely right and just glad that you have the right people around you to see you through this. been, — you know, I wanted to there's only one last thing I wanted to say to you and and ask you is just, you know, when you came in here and I want to point this out because we've had a we you've had to revisit for this conversation to talk about the book. We've revisited so many hard and dark moments in your life, — but when you came in today, you had this big smile on your face. You greeted me with a really warm embrace. You were so kind. When we walked over here, we were having a wonderful conversations and you were telling me just about this next chapter of your life and how excited you are to attract goodness into your life and attract love just and I could see in your eyes and you know, you are this light as you said as yourself in your journal and I want people to know that I felt that and saw that when you came in because you know we we've revisited the past that — that is tough and is talked about in your book this is me But when you write a book like this, it almost feels like the end of a chapter and the beginning of a new one as well. — You kind of put all of this together and you share it. — And I wanted to ask you that what would

you want to call the chapter of this that you're entering into now — that you walked in with today that I got to experience? — I don't know yet. It was one of the hardest parts of this too was in was figuring out what to call it. I felt like I couldn't come up with a name until I was already until I was done with the process of the book. Sometimes people do it in the middle of the experience. Sometimes people do it they need a title before they start the process of writing and I felt like I had to wait till the end. So, I mean, I would have to I feel like to come up with something good, I would have to see where the book went, see where my life is going to go because I I finally feel like I have shaken off all of this darkness and this negativity. And that means I've closed one door and another door is opened and and I can feel it opened all the possibility all the possibilities all the exciting possibilities. I've I feel like I have a lot more life to live. — Absolutely. I think you're one of the toughest and most vulnerable and bravest people who sat in that chair and uh I really notice and acknowledge just how much work you've had to do to even be sitting here right now to share your story with this much grace and courage. So, thank you for trusting me. Thank you for being here and — I'm really looking forward for people to read this book and I hope it reaches the people who — who really need it right now. people who may be caught in cycles that you found yourself in can break out that it can protect others who — are in the early stages of careers like yours. — I pray I just wanted to help people. I I want what I have gone through to be for a reason. To have happened. Everything to have happened for a reason. And for that reason to be to help people go through whatever it is, whatever challenges they're facing and to know that it's possible. It can be done. — Yeah. Thank you, Aiden. — Thank you. — Can I give you a hug? — Of course. Yes, if you love this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion. There's blessing in the breaking.