The Bible Mentions Money 2,300X. Here’s the Good Money Framework | John Coleman | FDE Podcast Ep 374
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The Bible Mentions Money 2,300X. Here’s the Good Money Framework | John Coleman | FDE Podcast Ep 374

Faith Driven Entrepreneur 12.05.2026 9 325 просмотров

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Only 17% of Americans say they find a great deal of meaning and purpose at work. Loneliness is rising. Depression is climbing. And somehow, the wealthiest societies on earth are flourishing less than middle-income ones. John Coleman — investor at Sovereign’s Capital, 15-year Harvard Business Review contributor, and author of Good Money — has spent his career asking why. And the answer, it turns out, has always been hiding in plain sight. John joins Justin Forman for an expansive conversation on what it means to have a healthy relationship with money. His book Good Money presents a comprehensive framework covering earning, spending, giving, investing, and saving — and grounds each in both cutting-edge research on human flourishing and the ancient wisdom of Scripture. The Bible mentions money over 2,300 times, and modern research is now catching up to what it’s always said. Entrepreneurs especially will want to hear John’s take on the hedonic treadmill, the financial finish line, and why setting a cap on lifestyle spending isn’t giving up — it’s a turbocharge for your business, your generosity, and your purpose. [CHAPTERS] 00:00 The crisis of meaning: 17% engaged, 17% finding purpose 01:42 Fun facts: Chess champs and speech team nerds 03:07 Why structuring thought is the most important skill in business 04:25 Why John wrote Good Money and what led him there 05:18 The two streams: Human flourishing research + investor life 07:20 The Bible, 2,300 references, and the love of money 08:36 The Good Money framework: Six areas of your financial life 09:20 The Harvard human flourishing model: 5 intrinsics explained 10:52 The financial finish line conversation: Alan Barnhart, Casey Crawford, Henry 11:35 How hedonic adaptation works — and the John D. Rockefeller quote 13:20 Dostoevsky’s warning: How Much Land Can a Man Need? 14:46 Clayton Christensen: 100% is easier than 98% 16:55 How the finish line turbocharged generosity for Alan, Casey, and Henry 17:44 Why consumption traps burn people out faster than ambition ever could 19:30 Compounding generosity: The ripple effect of deploying capital well 20:05 Faith as the anchor — why Christian community changes behavior 21:00 Generosity stats: Only 4 in 10 Americans give anything at all 22:15 The physical benefits of generosity: mortality, dementia, heart attack, stroke 23:00 No success without significance — why waiting to give is a deception 25:28 Why wealthy societies flourish less: Results from Harvard, Baylor & Gallup 27:53 Longevity, money, and the gospel — meeting people where they are 31:40 The investor mindset: Why entrepreneurs must see the bounce 33:47 Entrepreneurs as salt and light — why withdrawing cedes the territory 35:31 Building accountability: Who needs to be in your money conversation 36:28 Finding advisors whose values are aligned with yours 38:30 Teaching your kids about money — and why they’ll hold you accountable 40:36 Call to action: Grab the book and start the conversation today ► SUBSCRIBE for more Faith Driven Entrepreneur content ► Join a Faith Driven Entrepreneur Group at faithdrivenentrepreneur.org ► Partner with FDE as a church at faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/churches #FaithDrivenEntrepreneur #GoodMoney #HumanFlourishing #ChristianEntrepreneur #MoneyMindset Like what you’re seeing so far? We recommend you start with the Foundations Series. Go even deeper and watch it with other like-minded Faith Driven Entrepreneurs in your background, or around the world. Joining a Foundation Group means becoming a part of a community of people who can really empathize with your journey of entrepreneurship. No cost. No catch. Just connection. Online or in person. Find the allies you need for your entrepreneurial journey. https://www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/groups --- Subscribe to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@faithdrivenentrepreneur Listen to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Podcast: faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/podcasts Follow Faith Driven Entrepreneur on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/faithdrivenentrepreneur Follow Faith Driven Entrepreneur on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/faithdrivenentrepreneur Follow Faith Driven Entrepreneur on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/faithdrivenentrepreneur

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The crisis of meaning: 17% engaged, 17% finding purpose

The stats are bad. I think only 17% of US employees are engaged at work right now. Only around 17% of Americans say that they find a great deal of meaning and purpose at work. And things like loneliness, unhappiness, rates of depression are higher all over the world, especially the wealthy world. Bold visionaries, faithful disruptors. Some call them crazy, but they are called to create under his power for his glory. The faith-driven entrepreneur podcast. Investor and now author John Coleman discusses his new book, Good Money. His new book talks about the framework on how entrepreneurs can develop a healthy relationship with money anchored in the pursuit of human flourishing. — So, one of the ways we love to start off every episode is fun facts. And like there's trophies, there's experiences, there's things that you've collected at a young age. Okay, I'll make the confession. Seventh grade, I entered a chess tournament. — I actually won it. I became the school chess champ. That's not a title that I wore with like honor for a little while. I, you know, I beat a senior as a seventh grader. — Master there. No, neither of those adjectives are true. But I did get $200. I got a trophy. Um, and I got a lot of hazing or whatever that came with it. Now, that doesn't compare to some of the fun life experiences. You got to be class president. You got a chance at a young age to share deep thoughts, big thoughts. — Do you ever look back on that speech as what was it? Class president at

Fun facts: Chess champs and speech team nerds

— Well, I in high school I was class president. Two time champ. Uh, in college I did it one or two years if I remember right. — So, a defending title high school and college. — Well, you know, I dabbled in politics all the time and I was shameless in the things that I would promise my constituents. I learned that was the key to politics. Just promise more than you can possibly deliver and deal with that after you're elected. — Sounds like it's caught on. It's a trend now. That's right. — So, maybe you started this. Is that what we're saying? — I feel like I was early on. — Yeah. What were some of the early campaign processes? — Oh gosh. I promised to change the dress code in high school to relax the dress code. I remember I may have promised some better vending machines at some point. You know, these were deep uh philosophic political promises as you can tell. So, low hanging votes. — Yeah, low hanging votes. Promised to get shorts for the guys in high school. — You can win on that platform. — So, I mean, we make light of those experiences, but like just talk about just kind of like what those experiences. I mean, as dads, we're sitting in this moment. Our kids are growing up and we look back on those and say gosh the chance to speak, the chance to share, the chance to process through what you want to say even at that young age. — Man, it's one of the greatest educations probably that we ever had growing up. — Totally. I make fun of myself a lot cuz in college I was actually on the speech team — and uh it is a very nerdy competition for sure. — Chess champs, speech, we're a good company. It's all good. Speech and

Why structuring thought is the most important skill in business

debate. But in honesty, looking back, that was probably the most important thing that I did in college. And it wasn't just the ability to communicate. It was all about being able to structure your thoughts, to simplify them, to support them, and to communicate them well. And so, I remember the very first management consulting interview that I went into. It was really the speech team experience that got me through that, I think, rather than my educational experience because this idea of getting a case study, breaking it down really quickly, structuring it, and then communicating it well was very natural to me because that is that's what I've done for a long time. And so we're encouraging the kids to do that either through theater, uh some of them like music actually, so performance. I think this act of just putting yourself out there, being a little bit vulnerable, being willing to get in front of people and learning how to articulate yourself, especially now that we're overwhelmed with new technologies and AI, there's no replacement for your ability to structure your own thoughts well and to engage others, right? Whether it's in writing or in speaking. And so, I do think it's really good for kids. And it's a safe way to fail, too, because at some point, you're going to mess up. — You're going to disappoint everyone. You're not going to do well. And you learn from that. It feels big in the moment, but you obviously get over it and it's something that you learn from and you learn to absorb all the failure that will come later.

Why John wrote Good Money and what led him there

— Yeah. The teasing and everything and so like that leads us into one of the big reasons why we want to have this conversation today. We've had so many things that we've done together in film and conversation, but I think there's an important one around this idea of money and specifically for faith-driven entrepreneurs that are listening. Like I think we see it I don't know at the base level the commoditization of it the tactic level but we don't see the strategy kind of behind it. We see it passed through our hands. We see money as a scoreboard but we got to take a moment to kind of really step back and see how much it's in our life, how much it shapes us. And so you've written about this, you're sharing about this and you're bringing a framework to this moment in time that we're in. — Like what led you there? What was the journey for you personally? Because I think oftent times the framework's powerful, but the why is even more. What was the why for you?

The two streams: Human flourishing research + investor life

— Well, I've always had a couple of sets of passions. One of those was this real interest in purpose, leadership, meaning, human flourishing. And that I've explored primarily through writing. We do some of that at Sovereigns Capital and the work that we do as well. Uh but I've been writing for Harvard Business Review for about 15 years now on those topics trying to explore this idea of purpose at work, meaning at work because it's something very meaningful to me. And as a leader, I want to create environments where people can flourish. opportunities for other. It's one reason I care about education. And so that was one stream of thought that's always been in the back of my mind. The other is I've obviously spent most of my career as an investor. And just like entrepreneurs, uh I live in a world that's surrounded by money. My scoreboard literally is money, right? I get judged dayto day on how much we've returned to investors. And entrepreneurs are in a similar circumstance. You're thinking about valuation all the time. You're often returning capital to shareholders. You're trying to preserve their capital. And so in a very real way, many of our professional lives by default get wrapped up in money and then we personally it. Right. Yeah. But what I'd seen in that career, particularly around very successful people, was very resonant with my Christian upbringing, which was money was not always a good thing. I saw it destroy as many lives as I saw it help. — Right. And I saw even great people led astray by the problems of prosperity, which is not something we think about very often. — Yeah. — And I think most of us have a fairly thoughtless relationship with money. We know we want to get it. — We see the scoreboard. We're all competitive. We want to amp up the number on the scoreboard, but at some point it begins to consume our life. And so I had never seen a book on the topic of human flourishing and money comprehensively. There have been a few good books explaining the psychology of money, even money and happiness, but this idea of human flourishing comprehensively, living a total and holistic life, I'd not seen a book that intersected with those despite the fact that Christianity and even other religions speak about it so extensively

The Bible, 2,300 references, and the love of money

right? Like the Bible mentions money over 2,300 times. It never says money is evil, but it says the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And many of those are cautionary tales about how it can lead you astray. — And so I saw our culture falling down that path. I see many of the people I know uh led down the wrong path by financial wealth. And so I wanted to write a book that really combined this research on human flourishing and all its facets — with this idea of trying to make money serve a good life. — Yeah. — Rather than be a substitute for it. I wanted it to enable human flourishing rather than be an impediment. And so that was the root of this project around good money. — Yeah. I think that's I mean we we've said this phrase money is a tool — and I maybe that's been a conversation it feels like for the last 5 10 years. — It's like we say that but then we haven't unpacked what that means. Yes, — we haven't unpacked that framework. And I think that that's kind of this time of like so much of the conversation the last 10 years there's been a reinvention of how do we invest it? — Yes. — There's a new conversation happening today about how do we give it well? — Yes. — But we've got to really see it holistically. — Yes. — So take us through this kind of framework like when we see money. — Yeah. — We know it's not a tool. — What's the framework that we should see this in?

The Good Money framework: Six areas of your financial life

— Yeah. So I break my exploration of money into kind of six parts with one addendum chapter. The first for me is developing a framework for what is human flourishing in the good life and what mindsets around money should drive the way that you encounter it everywhere. So that's the first section of the book. I anchor a lot on the Harvard program on human flourishing their framework for human flourishing and they outline five intrinsics to human flourishing. These things you pursue as inself and those are character and virtue, meaning and purpose, happiness and fulfillment, deep and positive relationships, uh, and things like that. Right? There's a sixth category that they've added which is financial and material stability. — But the important thing about that

The Harvard human flourishing model: 5 intrinsics explained

category is it's not an end in itself. It's a means to achieving the more meaningful things in life. And sometimes actually if you pursue financial and material wealth too much, it can stand in the way of you pursuing these other things. I talked to Tyler Vanderwill, the lead researcher, about that quite a lot. — And so in that way, it's the only of those characteristics that can impede the others. Like if you pursue character, you'll probably have better relationships. If you have better relationships, you'll have more meaning and purpose. But if you get too fixated on money, it can actually hurt your ability to achieve those things. And so I start with mindsets like understanding that money is a means not an end. I lay out an understanding of something called hedonic adaptation which is this psychological principle that leads us to never be satisfied with what we have to always want more and talk about things like a financial finish line which can take us off the treadmill of hedonic adaptation. — And then the rest of the book as you just articulated is walking through basically the five areas in which we all encounter money in our life. Uh there's earning the way that we bring it in. There's spending, how we send it out. There's giving or generosity, right? There's investments. And then there's savings. And I think we actually carry a number of fundamental misconceptions about the right way to engage money in each of those different spheres of life that can lead us astray. And so I then go through each of those topics and try and apply this flourishing framework to the way in which we can spend or give or invest or earn uh more aligned with an understanding of the good life.

The financial finish line conversation: Alan Barnhart, Casey Crawford, Henry

— Yeah. Let's come back to this finish line conversation. We talk about it a lot and we talk about this conversation and I think of some great entrepreneurs and leaders over the last 20 30 years. I think of Alan Katherine Barnhart. I think of conversations like that have led this into a deeper awareness. Are we set up to fail if we don't dethrone more from the bad god that it is? Like are we set up to just lose? Because it feels like I mean we were talking about this with Ron Blue and he just says more makes a terrible god to serve. — Yes. If we don't kick more off of its throne, are we just set up to lose?

How hedonic adaptation works — and the John D. Rockefeller quote

— Yeah. Because we're all wired as human beings to pursue more, — right? Um if you survey people about how much money will make them happy. There was a great Harris poll, for example, that surveyed a couple thousand Americans and they asked people at different median incomes, how much income per year would be enough to make you happy and fulfilled. And the funny thing about it was at $25,000 per year in annual income it was $40,000. At $75,000 it was $100,000. At $100,000 it was 150. At 250 it was 350. And if they'd gone further you could just see there was a great John Rockefeller quote to a reporter at one point. He was the richest man in America. And someone asked him, "John, you're so wealthy. Like how much money do you need? " And he said, "Just a little bit more. " — Right? Yeah. And we're all wired that way if we don't reflect consciously — and set boundaries because the typical way an American or anyone around the world lives is as our income increases we naturally then go to increase our standard of living right when we get more money and buy a nicer house, a nicer car, maybe another house, nicer clothes and it creeps up on you. So it's not anything malicious. Yeah. — It's just that as resources are available you escalate. And because that's so ingrained in us, that's why it's called hedonic adaptation or sometimes the hedonic treadmill. You're basically running a race that never ends, right? I go through a doseki short story in the book uh called How Much Land Can a Man Need? — And it's about this guy who enters into an agreement where he can have as much land as he can walk around in a day. And he becomes so greedy for just a little bit more land that he exhausts himself and falls down dead at the finish line. says he has he ended up with just enough land for us a 6x3 coffin or whatever — and we're all kind of doomed to that

Dostoevsky’s warning: How Much Land Can a Man Need?

if we don't consciously step off but it feels frightening to kind of set a number after which we won't exceed — and if we don't do that in community with an adviser with spouse with friends it's very easy to cheat right um I had an old professor named Clayton Christensen one time and he had a great principle which was 100% of the time is easier than 98% % of the time and he was referencing Sabbath when he talked about that — where he had turned down playing basketball on the Sabbath. — But I think setting rules and guard rails for ourselves is an important way in which we can escape some of these psychological traps that we fall into. So I think the finish line is an important concept. I think part of the finish line thing is like entrepreneurs, we're not used to being told no or like setting a limit and there's a muscle that is underdeveloped. — I feel like at some level that's part of it. Maybe another part is like we don't see the compounding way that money's working and so we don't realize how soon we may have hit that or how attainable it is in a — in a certain lifestyle that we always just assume that it takes more. — Yes. — Are we just are we missing what is it? Is it a fear of control thing? Is it a lack of knowledge when it comes to the finish line of knowing, hey, when you get to a couple million dollars that compounds over time in a really powerful

Clayton Christensen: 100% is easier than 98%

way, especially if you're early — and part of it's just the ambition within all of us, especially entrepreneurs are wired to create. We're wired to compete. And so, if you set a financial finish line, it can almost feel like giving up, right? It can say, "Am I retiring? What am I supposed to do afterwards? " And one of the things I talk about in the book that I've seen modeled by Allan, by Casey Crawford, by Henry, by others — is the finish line is not a finish line to your work, right? It's not even value creation. — It is a lifestyle that you're not going to exceed for yourself. — And in that way, setting your own limitations frees you from this constraint of always personally wanting more. And then all those resources you can accumulate can go towards other things, right? I mean, you can invest them to build a meaningful business. You could donate them to charity. You can start foundations. You can deploy that money in other ways that can be fulfilling. Uh that can be incredibly powerful for the world around you. — And so, I think there's some confusion when people think about this that it's like giving up, right? That it's setting a target and then not knowing what to do with your life. And I think it can actually be liberating because especially once you hit that point, you're no longer thinking about, hey, what am I going to buy now? Yeah, — you're thinking about what can I create that does something positive for the world, which is a much more meaningful pursuit. — Americans, — entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey. The weight of leadership heavy. You've been called to create impact through your business. But here's the truth. Isolation kills vision. Comfort destroys calling. That's why faith-driven entrepreneur created our foundation groups. Join 10 fellow entrepreneurs who truly understand your path just for one hour a week for eight weeks online or in person. Together, you explore God's purpose for your business through practical, purposeful discussions with others who really get it. Don't journey alone. Your calling is too important. Visit faithdrivenontrepreneur. org and join a group today. That's faith-driven. org.

How the finish line turbocharged generosity for Alan, Casey, and Henry

I love that and I maybe if I would take it a step further. I think it's not only it's liberating and freedom, but I think it actually come to your point earlier is like, hey, it's the end of creating value. Actually, I think it's like a turbocharge. — That's right. — When I see stories of like Allen and Casey and Henry and others, I think it actually turbocharged the competitive advantage. — Totally. that the more that they were able to deploy either into the business or into the kingdom, it actually was a strategic way of growing the business. And it's weird for us to think about generosity in that terms. — Yes. — But when you look at all those stories, taking better care of your team, doing more things in the community, all things that are a kingdom, virtuous, beautiful, flourishing thing for the kingdom and the business itself. And I think that I think we miss that. It's there's a get to, not just a got to. What I think

Why consumption traps burn people out faster than ambition ever could

what people miss is the bigger risk for you is the trap of consumption. Right? So I talk about this a lot in the spending chapter. The bigger risk of burnout for people is when you get rich and I've talked to a lot of people who are very wealthy. You quickly realize that all these things you thought would make you happy that you could acquire, right? Whether it's nicer clothes or a yacht or you know anything else — are not as fulfilling as you thought they would be. And a lot of people actually burn out because this thing they've been wired to do. They want to be a billionaire. multi-millionaire. They want to have these cool toys, right? And then they get there and they think, "What was this? Is this all there is? What was this about? " — Yeah. — And if you change your mindset around how you want to deploy capital from just acquiring stuff, right, which the research, and I go through this extensively, is exactly what the Bible would tell you that stuff makes you happy in a very short-term way sometimes. And then that effect wears off and in fact if you become obsessed with acquiring things. — Yeah. — Uh that can make you less happy. People who acquire too much become less happy which we've all observed. — But if you're deploying your capital towards creating experiences, building relationships, towards your health, — uh towards creating impact in the world, towards generosity, — you never get tired of those things. Those things actually when you start to employ more capital are more fulfilling than you thought they would be, not less. And so in a way, setting that finish line and redeploying the way you think about spending and generosity can hypercharge your motivation and your ambition. — Yeah. — Because the things you're deploying that money into, there's no end to the meaning they can create in you, right? And so it really does liberate you in a sense — to be even more passionate about what you're doing than you would have been otherwise.

Compounding generosity: The ripple effect of deploying capital well

otherwise. — I mean, it's a funny thing. We know the compounding impact of finance. It's a great wonders to the world, right? But we've never looked at the compounding impact of investing into some of these things, giving to those things that sets off those ripple effects. — How do we keep that in front of us? — Yes. — Like how do we keep this kind of tension? Because — gosh, the world's noisy. If we look at as competition, it's a really tough competition. — Yeah. — That is just screaming at us subtly, loudly, in all different walks of life. — How do we battle this? How do we keep it that framework in front of us?

Faith as the anchor — why Christian community changes behavior

Well, I think I mean for faith-driven entrepreneurs, obviously the biggest anchor is your faith. It's what the Bible could teach you. It's the influence of Jesus in your life, the Christian community, the church, and those really are anchoring in extraordinary ways. And so, if you look at a lot of the elements of flourishing, those are much more alive across the board in religious communities for exactly that reason in the Christian church and even other religious communities. And so, I think that's always the anchor. One of the things I try and help people see through the book is also that mainstream research echoes what you hear in those ancient traditions quite extensively because I think one of the first ways in which you change behavior — is to change your mindset. And often to change your mindset you need to understand the root of something right and so I go extensively through the research on things like earning on things like spending generosity and show that what we were taught in the church is actually echoed in modern research.

Generosity stats: Only 4 in 10 Americans give anything at all

Uh to give you an example, I just went through spending generosity. So around four in 10 Americans don't give any money at all every year. — Around 2% of GDP is donated every year in the United States. The biggest uh generosity state in the country is Wyoming at 4%. And even in Christian communities, giving rates are quite low. — Yeah. — And yet, if you look just at the mainstream secular research, uh there's mounting evidence that generosity is not just good for your sense of purpose and meaning, though it is. It regularly rates number two or three in terms of sources of purpose in people's life. Usually relationships is one but this is usually two or three. — But it even has physical benefits. So these are crazy stats that I got uh from some of the research about reductions in all cause mortality, reductions in dementia, heart attack, stroke. — There are just ways in which generosity — even if you were just selfish — Yeah. — is one of the best things you can do for yourself. And then if you extend that out into the broader world, you're obviously doing it as you were commanded to serve others. And that's the root of it. — But it's good for you. It's great for families. I have a final chapter in the book on money and kids. How families navigate it. And I'd say one of the defining characteristics of the wealthy families I've encountered who end up

The physical benefits of generosity: mortality, dementia, heart attack, stroke

functional, who have multiple generations who are functional and anchored uh versus those who don't is that they give together as a family and they bake generosity in from a very early age. It's one of the most common things I see that's a difference between functional and non-functional families. — And I think that's because it anchors everyone in selflessness and service to others. It activates all of these positive psychological and physical benefits in us and it pulls you together more as a family. And so generosity I think is one of those things that impacts others and it does compound — but it's something that if you bake it into your life, if you become a percentage giver, if you make it part of your regular practice — can really anchor you and your family in something uh quite special. Yeah. — Um and that does compound. I talk

No success without significance — why waiting to give is a deception

about in the book, I believe firmly there is no success without significance. — A lot of people think I'm just going to crush it at work and one day I'll be philanthropic at 60. — Yeah. — And that's no way to live life. You want to have purpose in your job. — You want to think about the way you spend. You want to have relationships with those around you. And you want to be generous from day one, even if that's small now. — Because the problem is if you have a tough time giving away 5%, 10%, 15% of your income when you're making $30,000 a year. — Yeah. because you think you'll wait until you have $3 million a year. Well, when you write that $500,000 check for the first time, — that's going to feel big, right? If it wasn't a practice you cultivated over time. And so, I think there's a deception in trying to work really hard and wait to do these other things. — There's something so untapped about just like the benefits of it. Like to me, again, it's a big language of the got to versus the get to. I think what's fun is that God's like really giving us this idea of like we're spiritledd but like being data informed in this moment and he's showing us really across a lot of different conversations that's better for us like the conversation we had with David Kinnman and Barna talk about like — entrepreneurs have an optimism they have a hope they activated faith-driven entrepreneurs — truly do feel more supported by their church their family they're connected and then you look at the younger generation and this one to me was the most fascinating is you had an entrepreneurial-minded teenager. — Yes. — Surveying 13 to 19 year olds saying if you had a business idea, a plan, they went down it. They were 80 some odd percent more likely to seek out a mentor, more hopeful about the future, all these different things. And I only point to that to say like, I think God's doing something pretty obviously saying here's the data, guys. the things in scripture, whether it's money, financing, saving, generosity, building, whatever it is, like this is not just like better for the kingdom, this is better for you. — Totally. And what I love about the book, like you're an unapologetic of where you're coming from, but I think that the broader conversation of the world, even publishing with a group like Harvard Business Review, it shows that there's a conversation happening in the world where people are saying like, "Hey, we got to rethink this. " — Totally. — We've got to rethink this from a perspective. So give everybody because people might hear this and they might say, "Yeah, I've heard these stories. I've heard Katherine Bernard Al Katherine Bernard I've heard this — but talk about how the world you think is kind of turning to this conversation.

Why wealthy societies flourish less: Results from Harvard, Baylor & Gallup

— Well, I think it's really interesting right now because uh the global human flourishing program which is Baylor Harvard and Gallup working together you worked it in. I got your guys a shout out. They're doing great work. They just released some of the initial results of their first set of major surveys and there was actually an inverse relationship between the prosperity of a society and its composite measures of human flourishing. And so wealthy societies rated lower on human flourishing than middle inome and low-income societies which were safe. So there's a whole category of war torn places etc. We know it's a desperate situation, but safe low and middle- inome societies were generally more flourishing than wealthy societies. And I think we see that even in our individual lives like materialism was never intended to be the way that human beings operate. — And we've lived in a society that's so focused on that because it's tangible. — Uh but we're now seeing that that's not as fruitful as we thought. It's what we talked about earlier. And so I think we're going now through a generation that's really seeking meaning in different ways. Yeah, — we've seen that with younger generations. Bible sales are up. Church attendance is up for the first time in decades in the United States. It's happening in some places in Europe. — I think people are searching for a way to make sense of this world that will actually help them to flourish. — Yeah. — And they found that all those conventional things they were taught to see, wealth, stuff, status, power, when they get them, when anyone gets them, — Yeah. — are not leading to flourishing. And so I think it gives us this unique opportunity even for those who don't really have a sense for what the answer to that should be to speak into their lives and hopefully present them with a path that's evidence-based uh that can help them to live a better life for others and for themselves. — Yeah. — And you made an important point which I'll reemphasize. I never get when Christians are afraid of science or research because it's like look if you believe what we believe is true. If you believe the Bible is true, if you believe God is real, everything in the world is going to end up at the same truth if you do the research well. — And so I've always approached it saying like all the best mainstream research is just going to reveal new angles of what I've been taught to believe and help me understand that more fully. And that's the way I try and write is to just bring those two worlds together, these ancient traditions that we know to be true with all the research that's now proving them out. And I think that's a powerful way

Longevity, money, and the gospel — meeting people where they are

to communicate with people. — It's communicate. And I think in a time also where people are they're looking for a purpose, — but also even there's this longevity conversation where people are seeking — like, hey, longevity is just this buzz word. How do I extend my life? Live longer, live healthier, live better. — It's a gateway conversation — totally — to flourishing. to saying, "Hey, if you manage money well, if you see it, if you see generosity, — there's health indicators here. " — Yeah. — And I think it's a fun way that God's like saying, "Okay, like, hey, we always think it's like evangelism in this very specific box. " — Yeah. — But I think that if we see like the way that we use, steward, and like have this relationship with money could be one of the greatest opportunities as entrepreneurs. — Yes. to boldly share the gospel in a countultural way. — More and more pastors are realizing the church can be a launching pad, equipping entrepreneurs to build redemptively and make a real difference. We've made it simple to serve the entrepreneurs in your church and your city. No cost, no catch. Get access to a ready to go video series, templates, and tools to host an 8week foundation group right in your church. Just register with us and we'll even direct local entrepreneurs to your community. We're building a network of 250 partnering churches globally. Each one featured as a go-to hub for faith-driven entrepreneurs in the area. Want to join the movement? All it takes is a 10-minute call with our team. Visit the link below to get started. Yeah, I think the longevity. So I I'm an old guy now. So I do take my share of supplements. I've been known to cold plunge once in a while. So — more than — But it's so funny to me in these conversations about we want to live forever. to 150. It's like well there our faith has something to say about that. It doesn't mean exactly what you think it means, but we do have something to say about that. And I do think people are, you know, one of the interesting statistics for me among young people and even people our age is there's a decline in alcohol consumption now uh in certain communities. There's a decline in things like drug use. People are wanting to get healthier, right? Again, because they've s seen that some of these other things are empty. And so I think talking about a healthy relationship in their spiritual life and a healthy relationship with money and how that can enable these other elements of human flourishing that they're seeking better relationships, better physical health, better mental health, better spiritual health, more purposeful work. All of those fit together and helping paint that picture I think can lead us out of some of the despair we've been in because the stats are bad. I think only 17% of US employees are engaged at work right now. something like 17 to 20%. Only around 17% of Americans say that they find a great deal of meaning and purpose at work. — In no country in the world do a majority of people say that work is a significant source of meaning and purpose in their lives. — And things like loneliness, unhappiness, rates of depression are higher all over the world, especially the wealthy world. — And so we know that we can bring tools to bear to help people who are suffering. And maybe they're not suffering in the way we think with impoverished communities, which is obviously the most important suffering which Jesus told us to take care of, but they're suffering physically, psychologically, spiritually uh even in the midst of this prosperity that seems like it should make them happy. — And those people are important to speak to as well. And that's you and me at any given time as well, right? Like we go through these periods where we we're suffering in that way. And I think it behooves all of us to just think more carefully, judiciously about the good life. Yeah. Uh and how we can achieve that with everything that we have at our disposal.

The investor mindset: Why entrepreneurs must see the bounce

— I think it's you know in our 40s like life compounds or learning compounds and you just kind of have a new appreciation for it. I think that's something as you're kind of talking through that resonates with me is it's like — I used to always look at like the doom or the gloom or the despair of just kind of this and be like ah — you of course as an entrepreneur you want to like run in there and you throw yourself into the front lines and say how do you do something about it? It's just a way that we're wired. But I think when you take like the investor mindset and you kind of step back and watch the graph, if you will, you realize that like there's often times something hits bottom and it bounces. — Yeah. — And some not always, but I think we're seeing that bounce. — Y — I think we've seen that despair for so long. And I think as you know, entrepreneurs and faith-driven investors, we got to see this as a moment. — Yes. to say like, "Hey, there's a bounce happening. People are looking. They're where are they? " And they're pursuing all the wrong things. They're not knocking on the doors of our church, but they're pursuing the wrong ills of money. They're pursuing the greed. So, how do we meet them there? — Yes. — And that's what I love about this conversation that you've pushed us into with this approach to money is it says, "How do we use this as a tool? " — Yes. — And I think as entrepreneurs, um, I don't know. I I just admit you're at those events, you're at those things and you're just disgusted when you're at that party and people are talking about money and greed and this and that and you're like, "Oh, just get me out of here. " — And that's typically the Christian mindset, right? Just like let's run withdraw. — Yeah. The Joseph run away kind of strategy. — And it's and it's a challenge for me personally to say, "No, no, no. How do I push in? " — Yeah. — But how do you push in a winsome way? not a Jesus juke you kind of way. What's the winsome way to it? And that's what I love about those stats, those things and that conversations. You're equipping us to meet people where they are with stats that they're probably like paying attention to and redirecting that conversation. And I think that's just a challenge for us as entrepreneurs in this moment.

Entrepreneurs as salt and light — why withdrawing cedes the territory

— Well, and I think entrepreneurs have a critical role to play in shaping the world through that influence. Because if you think about the entrepreneurial community or even the investor community, — these are some of the smartest people in the world, they're some of the most ambitious. They're creating the tools that shape our society. If you're a successful entrepreneur and you're in the room with other entrepreneurs, even if you're kind of turned off by the values that some of them have, those values are shaping artificial intelligence, robotics, biotechnology, social media, all of these other things. — Yeah. — And the wealth that they're going to create is going to go somewhere, right? It may go to toys. nonprofit causes, some of which might actually be counterproductive. And so when we withdraw, we seed that territory. — Yeah. — We don't have a chance to be salt and light in those rooms. And certainly we should withdraw in certain instances, right? We don't want to participate in something that would be uh counter to our faith. But if we lose our seat at the table and our voice with those who are shaping the society around us, — uh we seed that and allow the wrong values to shape this society. And I think actually with an entrepreneur who's successful in particular, you're not just building something. You have an opportunity to speak to the other builders and speak truth into that to be salt and light and help them shape the future for our kids, for our grandkids, for the rest of the world that's suffering in a way that can hopefully be better for all, not worse. Uh, and I think that's critically important. You look at social media and how destructive that's actually been for young people and old people alike. and the chance that AI or biotech or other things could go down a similar path. — We have an obligation to be in those rooms to be creating and to be shaping those tools in a way that's reflective of what we know to be true about human

Building accountability: Who needs to be in your money conversation

nature. — Yeah. Well, we as we come to a close in this episode, we always love to leave it with something tangible and practical. And I don't want people to miss the framework and the beauty of pouring themselves into the book that you've written — and maybe even doing that in a community, a community group, in a church. I want you to unpack and drill a little bit specific because some people that have heard that finish line concept. There's something subtle that you talked about that I think is really important — is like it's not just who you it's not just the conversation, it's who you have the conversation with. — Yeah. Because I think a lot of times as entrepreneurs, we hire people, we hire an adviser, and many times that relationship has a power imbalance where it's like there's a customer and a client, they're going to do whatever it is that you want. Talk about the importance and just really the how you would encourage an entrepreneur to start that conversation and why it's important to bring people that you know into that

Finding advisors whose values are aligned with yours

too. — Yeah, this is something you can't [snorts] delegate. you know, it's pretty core. I do think there's a role for professional advice. I actually encourage people to get a financial advisor. — What I think is important in that is to find one whose values are aligned with yours. Y — So, if you want to go on this journey, when you're interviewing financial advisors, you're talking to Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan or Blue Trust or whomever, — you need to understand the firm and the person that you're working with are deeply aligned with your vision for the good life and are going to hold you accountable to that. and that helps you get out of that more transactional relationship. — But you're right that this has to be a deeply personal thing as well. — Um, if you're not married, I think that involves your church community. I think it involves your closest friends. Maybe at some point in your life, if you're younger, it might even involve your parents. And I have a whole chapter on money and kids. Um, if you're married, I think your spouse has to be a part of that. Uh, and maybe even a couple of other friends who can be in that with you. And then I think as you start to have kids like we do, it becomes a family commitment. And that's one reason I dedicated a whole chapter to that is I think often we're neglectful in apprenticing our children for money. So even if a mom and dad have made good decisions together, they often don't communicate those down or even modeled them appropriately. — And so we've started engaging even our young kids in these conversations around money because they hold us accountable. I know I tell my kids, you talk about this uh challenge of conforming, right? I to we tell our kids all the time, normal is boring. Be different. We want to be different, right? And so they want nice shoes and we're like, don't get nice shoes because other people have them. You don't need a Stanley Cup, you know, whatever. — But then if I go out and I buy something that's a little too flashy, you know, my son is like, hey, dad, you know, how much was that watch? Like what do you, you know, was that really the right thing to do? And it's funny cuz we're like joking about it and sometimes I tell him like, "Oh, you don't understand. " you know, but it's good accountability when the people around you know what you've committed to publicly, — right? They that you're actually keeping them accountable and they're going to step in and hold you accountable.

Teaching your kids about money — and why they’ll hold you accountable

— And I think that protects us over time from falling — off the wayside, right? Like we're trying to follow the straight and narrow and that's difficult even for someone with great values. But the more you can get a community around you and that starts with your family I think can support that uh the more likely you are to stay on path and you're there to help others stay accountable as well and that's the benefit of relationships and community differently. So for any entrepreneur out there, whether they're unmarried and single or whether they're older and have kids, — I think finding those people that are going to share in your most closely held uh topics like finances and then finding adviserss who can hold you accountable, who are aligned with your values is the very first step to making this make sense. — You know, I love and again great uh tying that together, the importance of you have to have a like-minded partner, river guide and adviser with that. I love what you also talk about though is like the accountability of just even speaking something out loud. The thing that strikes me most is Allan tells the story is like you know early on we told the people in our company what we're about and once you vocalized it you kind of had baked it in because whether it was 10 20 30 or whatever it was in the early days of people they're going to hold you accountable for that and not everybody's going to have that kind of environment but whether it's in a family and it's your son coming to you and holding it's a beautiful thing when we see that stuff happen. The best accountability mechanism is to write a book about it and then everybody in your life uh will if I went out and bought a nice Ferrari tomorrow, I think I would get a lot of notes and uh tweets. Yeah, — potentially. Yeah. I look, accountability has been proven time and time again. It has to start. It can't just be accountability without a heart change. Like you have to fix your mindsets. You have to reconfigure your values. — But if you don't talk about it out loud — and if you don't commit to it, — it's much more difficult to accomplish. So I think you know money is a sensitive topic and you don't want to share it with absolutely everyone in your life that has challenges of its own but you got to find that close circle with whom you can speak about this topic who are peers who can hold you accountable uh and that's going to make it easier for you to stay on track as new challenges arise.

Call to action: Grab the book and start the conversation today

arise. — Yeah. Well, thank you for stepping out there. into this conversation. Give us a framework to handle. Very grateful for you. — Justin, always a pleasure, man. — Awesome. Well friends, you know that at the end of every episode, we do not want to just leave you with hype and an idea and leave you short of a next step. And today's is pretty clear. John's book, I think, is a really important one in this time because I think so often times when we talked about the conversation of money, we've taken a piece of it and great things are happening, innovative things are happening and different areas of you heard of investing and generosity and all these things of finish line. But sometimes we need a place where it all comes together because we can't learn in just this peacemeal side. We need a framework where it all builds together. And I would really encourage you as an entrepreneur, especially in your young, you're saying, "That's a later conversation. " Hopefully, you heard from John and I's conversation today. It's not. It's something that starts today and it builds as your business builds. family builds. So, dive into that. We're going to have a QR code on the screen. You can have the website there. Check it out. Grab a copy of it. We look forward to seeing you guys on the next episode. Come for content, stay for community. Join a faith-driven entrepreneur group online or in person. No cost, no catch. Visit faithdrivenontrepreneur. org. That's faithdrivenontrepreneur. org.
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