Secure Attachment Isn’t Perfection. It’s "Reach and Receive” with Eli Harwood | Dealing With Feeling

But I would probably tell you the difference between one and four beers, no problem, by the time I was five. I think that's part of why I'm such a good therapist, honestly. — Eli, what's one thing you wish every parent knew about attachment? — Buu research around this. You just need to show up enough, kids learn that when they are tender or they are distressed to reach for their parent, get proximity, and then receive that proximity and feel better. They actually don't need that much from us. Yeah. — You know. — Hi everyone. Welcome to the Dealing with Feeling podcast. I'm Mark Brackett, founding director of the Yell Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of Permission to Feel and the new book, Dealing with Feeling. Take a moment and think about this. Have you ever felt very insecure in a relationship? How about anxious dependent in a way that was uncomfortable for you? Well, guess where that might have come from? It might have come from your attachment style that you cultivated in your childhood. And that's the focus of today's podcast. Today I had Eli Harwood on the podcast. She's the attachment nerd. She's a licensed therapist. She's the author of multiple books. And we had an incredible conversation about all types of attachments, how they get cultivated, and what we can do to ensure that we develop as adults into those who have a secure attachment. and importantly help our children do the same. I just loved our conversation and I know you will too. I'd love for you to share your comments about this episode and please subscribe to our channel so you can learn more about how to deal with your feelings. — Welcome, Eli. — Thank you so much. It's so good to be here with you. It's fun you, too. I, you know, it's funny how you get to know people not by knowing them in person, but by watching them on Instagram and social media. So, — I really feel like a kindred spirit and heart with you. And I've felt it for a very long time. So, when you asked me to come on, I was like my friend. I'm like, I know we're not really friends, but I just — I love what you do in the world and I resonate with it so deeply. So, — I like what you're doing, too. And so I'm glad that we have a chance to talk about it. — Me, too. — So, before we begin, um, as I share with you, uh, we have a wide range of people that listen to this and watch it, but who is this woman named Eli? — Um, you know, my little spiel that I give when I'm trying to impress people, I'll give you my impressive spiel, but you can ask me other deeper questions to get to know other sides of me. But my impress you spiel is that I am a mom of three. And that's the most impressive statistic. I have been a therapist for almost 19 years. And uh my passion, my fixation, whatever you want to call it, is understanding attachment. So the research around our closest relationships and in specific the parent child dynamic and how we can cultivate secure identities and experiences for our kids by the ways we relate to them and their emotions. That's a key piece. So I'm really excited that you're going to get excited about that with me. — Yeah. And there is no attachment without feeling. — Nope. I was actually thinking about this. someone win the core of attachment is emotion mentoring. — Yes. — And so what we do with our children to create a positive relationship with them is almost entirely about what we do with emotions, both ours and theirs, — right? Because when you think about it, the attachment styles, if you want to call it that for now, which we do call it that, um, — evolve from how parents respond to how kids feel and what kids are doing, — right? — And, — right, — you know, how we Yeah. Okay. — I was going to say we kids learn to eat by watching adults eat, right? So kids in predominantly Asian countries learn to eat with two sticks, right? And they learn to put their fingers, these two here, and clip, right? We learn through chopsticks. And so that's the process of how you get the food from the plate to your mouth. In predominantly western countries, you know, we're learning with forks. In other countries, you eat with your left hand. You know, you're learning by witnessing what do your elders do around you. And that is entirely how it works for emotions as well. So, — I'm sad as a 2, three, 5, 12year-old, and I'm going to be emulating what do the people around me do with this emotion? What meaning do they make about it? What are the instructions around it? And so we have this incredible opportunity as grown-ups, you know, whether that's as a teacher or a parent

or an administrator or someone running a therapy, you know, we get to help children develop positive relationships to their emotions, which also means to their bodies because our emotions are our bodies. — It's pretty. — All right. So, you've you've inspired me to go like deep from the beginning because, you know, we joke about this as psychologists. You know, I study emotions and emotion regulation because I argue that I was kind of robbed of my emotional life as a child. — Yes. And um so the emotional development of Eli is defined as — I grew up in a home where my sweet mama was suffering from profound depression and PTSD and my dad had a significant cocaine and alcohol addiction. — He's he quit cocaine before I was born but I don't think that made the addiction piece of that go away necessarily. — Yeah. Um, so in my childhood, my parents were not dealing. They were not okay. And that cultivated an insecure experience for me and my brother. Um, and later on I have adopted siblings and step siblings. And so we've got a whole mish mash of all the peoples. But in my core childhood, it was me and my brother. And — um, I spent a lot of my childhood trying to fix and heal my parents so they would be okay. And uh that created some mental health problems for me, — you know, like I had a conversation once with my dad about all of this and he's like, "You were fine. You always knew who you were, you know, when you were. " I'm like, "Dad, I was two. No two-year-old knows who they are. " I was just I was really good at performing and I was gifted at attending to other people's needs as a survival mechanism, not because that's what I wanted. — Now you do it as a career, by the way. Well, I mean, when you said that, I thought I studied under Dr. Alan Shu at the University of Minnesota to learn the strange situation protocol. He is lovely. But he started out our training and he said, "I just want to be clear about something. All research is me search. — Not a single one of us are in this room because we had secure attachments, — right? " — You know, that wasn't news to me at that point. I'd been therapy for years. But I think, I think, — yeah, I I'm good at this because I've really been doing it for my whole life. — Yeah. I' I've learned to do it with much healthier boundaries and less codependence and I get paid for it now which is really helpful. — Yeah. — Yeah. I've been doing it my whole life. — So, thank you for sharing that by the way. Um and so you had some poor mentorship by your parents. — Yeah. Um, as you know, uh, you know, I have this book I call Permission to Feel, and I dedicate it to my uncle Marvin. And now I've done about, I don't know, 70 more studies on that concept that are about to get published. And, um, it's my obsessivempulsive research disorder. — Uh, also, it's so beautiful. Thank you. — Oh, thank you. No, I like I don't think people understand like the amount of grit and time and emotional effort that goes into doing that research and how important it is and how boring it can be also, you know, the tediousness of it. — That is true. I delegate that piece of it now. — Oh, good. Okay, good. But just thank you. — Thank you. And so my research shows across the board, this is cross-culturally now, um we've done it in other countries, is that on average only about a third of us have a feelings mentor — or someone in our childhood — who we see as a feelings mentor or an emotional ally. M — and um I'm just curious, did you have be aside from your parents, was there an uncle Marvin or Aunt Marie in your life? — Well, here's the plot twist in my story is that my mom when I was 9 years old, she was in that terrible, horrible place that nobody ever wants to be where she thought, I'm in so much pain. I either have to do something about this or maybe the world would be better off without me. And in the '9s when no one was going to therapy, uh she checked herself into a psychiatric hospital. She was like without there was no one saying you need help. She just literally somehow mustered up I mean I've got goosebumps saying that like she changed the trajectory of her life and our life and she started to heal and so actually she became a mentor. — Wow. And [clears throat] then by going to therapy and by trying to access other mentors for herself, she helped me see how many mentors there were. So I had therapists and — you know there were friends of family friends and people around but yes there

were people who were around who were responsive to me in ways that helped me learn how to be responsive to myself which now helps me know how to be responsive to other people in emotional places. — Nice. And um and when you think about those mentors, — what do you see as their top characteristics like attributes? — Um honesty. I think honesty is a big part of being emotionally intelligent is you have to be able to tell the truth about the sensations happening in your body or the dynamics happening in your relationships, the stories in your head. um accepting, you know, you also you can't also reject those things and try to run away from them. — Um and [clears throat] well, I'm think I'm thinking my mom during all this, but she's also just funny. She's so funny. She found ways to bring levity to some really dark, hard situations, and I think it taught me how to find those glimmers — amongst all the triggers, you know? Man, — so honest, accepting, and playful. Funny. — Yeah. Love it. — What about Marvin? I've read your book, but I don't remember cuz it's been like eight years or something. — Yeah. — Um, well, it's funny because Uncle Marvin himself — was I mean, he was very quirky. He was kind of like Robin Williams and um and uh what's the actor that's been cancelled now who's in his 80s who was Woody Allen. So he's like he was like a Woody Allen Robin Williams combo — character. Mhm. — Um he was a neurotic Jewish van leader, you know, in the Catscale Mountains — and a sixth grade social studies teacher, you know, and so he would go, he was just, you know, he would, you know, I'd go watch him on stage and he'd be singing like — the 75-year-old Jewish man's version of Lab Bomba, you know, — he was himself. — He was definitely his true self. and you could feel it. There's something so powerful about that. — But um what the research shows I mean he was his true self. He was completely I mean I'm it's hard for me to separate these research findings from like my you know it's like all of a sudden everything's one big thing. — So if I align my research with Uncle Marvin I'd say he was all three — of the key findings which he was non-judgmental [clears throat] — accepting — you know accepting. Exactly. And so like — nothing would throw him off. He wasn't afraid of what he heard. You know, my parents were had different issues than your parents had, but my parents were, — you know, my mother had terrible anxiety and she would lock herself in the room and like I can't handle this. And my father was like the toughen up kind of guy. — And so there was no place for feelings. [clears throat] — And I had a very um kind of disorganized attachment. You know, my mother was like very loving, but then she'd be like, "If I have to tell you one more time, you know, you're gonna, you know, and it was never like it was like I love you, but like — no predictable pattern like there nothing that says this is a grown-up I can rely on and bring my tenderness to and she'll help me feel better. " — No, that was not it was like I remember I used to get like have to stay after school for things and I'd be like, "Is she coming or is she not coming? " — Oh. Um, and then we have to, you know, go to the office and they have to call her and say, "Diane Bracket, you know, your son is waiting for you. " Um, anyway, Uncle Marvin on the other hand, quirky and funny, like you were saying, but the research shows three core characteristics, which are non-judgmental, good listener, — and empathic and compassionate. You know that — it's that simple [clears throat] — and not that simple. Right? It's that simple when we put it all on paper and we say, "Okay, you don't have to. " But what I think this is what's so interesting about the attachment research, our ways of coping are incredibly neurologically complex. So if my caregivers either overreact like your mom or underreact like your dad, right? Feelings are too much was her message to you. Feelings are not allowed was his message to you. What happens in your nervous system is you learn it is better to keep what I'm feeling inside — than to look for co-regulation from these people. — Yeah. And when you learn that, your brain is arranging itself around that coping mechanism. I mean, to crazy degrees, like um if you choose to keep your

feelings inside um your tender feelings and your distressing feelings, that's the developmental research terms, then you will have less cell density in your hippocampus, — right? What? That's wild. You know, if on the other hand you have caregivers who are every once in a while able to give you that feeling of being soothed, seen, supported, then you will actually have more of a sensitivity to dopamine in your brain and you get sort of like a hyper vigilance in your relationship and you want more reassurance, more comfort. Nothing quite settles you, — you know. Or if you have a caregiver who's frightening, which is a whole other terrible, horrible experience, then you h you go into flight, freeze, faint, and fawn. You have a — sympathetic nervous system response, right? In regards. So when we're saying, "Oh, this is simple. " You actually have to rewire your brain in these emotional moments based on the repeated patterns of experience you've had with people in your life. — Yeah. And so that's where, you know, Uncle Marvin is so amazing because he came in and he early on in your life, he created a different neural pathway. — There was enough of a Uncle Marvin neural pathway to go, wait a minute, some people might be able to handle what I feel and need. — Exactly. And um I think about this across our lifespan too, you know, in terms of the partners we choose, people we work with, in terms of the friends that we choose to spend time with. Um, I know and I'm in my 50s now and it's and like you I'm sure because you're a therapist, you know, I have like this massive psychological radar. you know, I can feel it in the first few minutes like — this is someone who is, — you know, codependent or has unmet needs and they think I'm going to be the person to have, you know, that's going to meet those needs or — or detached or whatever it might be. — But I want to get into now because I don't think everybody understands and I want to use talk about your work because you're the attachment nerd, right? um the uh what describe in your lens or from your lens, you know, just the world of attachment. — I'm going to open it up to you — because attachment, you know, is it's a psychological term. — And so, — yeah, it and it it kind of removes us from what it really is, which is, you know, intimate close connections. Um, attachment research is looking at, you know, what happens in these relationships between parents and children in early childhood and throughout, you know, kind of that dependency stage of, you know, living at home with your family, but also what happens in our close romantic or close friendship relationships later on. And I always say to people like when we're talking about attachment, we're talking about what goes on with your people. You know, who are your people? And you know, your attachment figures when you're young might be parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, teachers. As you age, it can be friends. It can be colleagues depending on what your work life is like. You know, people always talk about their work wife. — It's like, oh, that might be an actual attachment relationship going on there. Like someone you really allow to know you um on a deeper level, but it's the relationships we go to for identity, belonging, and emotional support. Those are the attachment relationships. pause there for a minute. So, it's the people well that we go to or that are available to us. — Great point. That we have, — right? It's — you may not get much of any of that with the wrong people. — Correct. — Uh identity, belonging, and emotional support. — So, identity is who am I? — Belonging is feeling like I'm in relationship or I matter. Mhm. — Um and then the emotional support is, you know, when things may not go how they — would likely we'd like them to go, do I have that kind of um person to go to for help? — Yeah. The people who show up for us, you know, and but what's so important about, you know, this is I go to the developmental research on attachment. Social psychology has their own body of research, which is also equally amazing. Um, I don't geek out on that as much only because I've just sort of landed in this it's almost like I have an attachment to the developmental research. It's my people. But it's 70 years. It's a legacy of 70 years of data. — And what that data has shown over time is a couple of really important things. — The quality of those relationships in your life is variant. So, you know, you aren't always born into the arms of somebody who can help you feel safe, secure, seen, and soothed. That's Dan Seagull and Tina Bryson's work. Those

four words, their four S's. — But um but that doesn't mean you aren't loved. That doesn't mean that you don't matter to people. — It means you were born into the arms of people who didn't have that mentorship in their own life. So they can't give it to you in terms of secure mentorship. They're going to mentor you in what they know, which might be don't be a weenie, — stop crying, right? — Um that's the only way they know to mentor you. Um but if that's the mentorship you get. So if the mentorship you get is what we would call insecure that affects you in big ways. It affects us in big ways. You know the files now because I know there's different nomenclature based on the scientist you know the three four. — That's fine. We don't need to worry about that. — No but it's I want to clarify the like because there are categories. — Yes. — You know or styles as we call it. — So you just mentioned one which is insecure. Mhm. — Okay. So, think of it like this. There's two big categories. And within one side is the term insecure and within the other side is secure. — And the secure category is really one main category. There's actually four subtypes. I almost never talk about that because people get real sleepy when you start getting into the subtypes, but — and that doesn't really matter, but there's one main type which is secure. In this insecure category, we have three separate designations. And what I want everyone to think about here is that these designations are essentially adaptive coping skills. This is not something wrong with you. So, as we talk about it, if you're thinking, "Oh, I'm not I didn't learn a secure pattern with my parents," it doesn't mean you're broken. It doesn't mean something was genetically wrong and you didn't appreciate the parents you had. — It means you adapted to what was available to you. So if let's talk secure first because that's the fun one. If you have a secure — that's what we all want, right? — Yes. And we all want to be, you know. So if you had a secure experience, that means that your caregivers were emotionally attuned enough, which means they could tell what you were feeling and understand it. You used a word recently on Rick Roll's um podcast, which I'm now just want to integrate into everything, which was you talked about prec precision. precise attunement, you know? So, if you're if you're mad or scared or sad that a caregiver is able to sense that actual feeling and understands why you're having it, like it makes sense that you're having it. Um, and in that attunement, you're responsive. The caregiver is responsive. You know, you have a tender feeling. I come closer to you. — Um, and also emotionally sturdy. So, I see you're feeling something. I know what it is. I understand it. I come towards you, but I'm secure in myself. So, I'm not freaking out about your tenderness. I am I'm going to be calm enough that you can borrow my calmness, and we're going to co-regulate. So, the caregiver actually disregulates a little bit in the face of the child's dysregulation because they catch the feeling. So, you know, someone feels sad by you and you feel sad, you're actually dysregulating a little bit. Just a pinch, just enough. I always say like take a sip of the feeling. Don't chug it down. right to parents and what happens is that a child feels felt. They don't feel alone in their overwhelm and then you come together and I call this the melting process and that can be physical or even just in eye contact or proximity and there's a sense of like I'm not alone in this and I'm seen and I'm known and I'm okay and I [sighs and gasps] there's always a shuddery breath that happens for kids when that happens like a release and then they move on. — So if you have a secure parent Go ahead, not finish, please. — Well, this is so important for anyone who's a parent to hear because parents are going, "Oh my gosh, I didn't do that this morning. " Um, if you're a parent, a secure parent, you're doing that 30 to 50% of the time. That's longitudinal research — uh by Edronic that, uh, basically shows like, you know, it's not all the time. I want everyone to hear that. No one is doing this all the time. You'd have to be a robot, you know, or a guru. I don't know. I don't know how that works. I am not that. Um, but that is the general experience. The general experience for the kid is I can rely on this parent to show up for me in the tender and distressing moments and help me feel better. — Nice. And one thing that I found in my research that I'm curious to hear your response to — is when people describe their parent or aunt or uncle who was this feelings mentor, — never ever ever do they say fixer — or um even problem solver [clears throat] — or even advice giver, believe it or not. It's kind of fascinating when people reflect on their childhoods and think

about those people. They think about non-judgment, good listening, acceptance, compassion, caring, kindness. Nobody says, even nobody says brilliant or wise or smart. They say we're all going to be good at this because you don't have to be that smart to do it. — Thank goodness. — Um, so play with that with me for a minute. M — the boundary the secure parent who helps to cultivate a secure attachment with their kid does things. — But how what's the line between because this is a big by the way the push back which by the way is huge right now. We're actually making a movie about this. um is that it creates codependence, these security it it's coddling um all that stuff. — So I'm kind of all over the place here with you know the from coddling to prescribing — and telling and fixing. — Okay, so key two keywords. We'll call these the two P's. And just to make it funny, we'll call it pee because my kids would love that joke. The two Ps that are happening in this moment of secure experience are presence and proximity. And proximity is that literal physical experience of like you're physically near. But presence — is the sense that you are feeling what I'm feeling with me. — Yeah. — But not losing yourself. And so that experience is not coddling. Coddling is doing something for a child or removing obstacles for a child so that they don't have to experience discomfort. That's a distancing we're remove. So when we coddle our children, we're doing it in order to distance from their feelings. — And we all do this from time to time. Again, nobody [clears throat] shame yourself for this. Like this is a human process. But the idea of giving advice, which again we do and sometimes that's needed, the idea of um fixing it, those are distancing maneuvers from the emotions. So even if you are trying to help someone, — well, let me just capture this. So they're distancing because what you're saying is that the it kind of the presence dissipates — and it's just do this and you'll be fine which is the fixing — you know or — um or the coddling I guess that's distancing in a that's more is that distancing or is that more um — it's still distancing from the emotion. — Yeah. [clears throat] So, you might not be distancing from the child, but you're distancing from the emotion. — Yeah. You're kind of overcompensating with the everything's going to be fine. Your mommy loves you. You know, — you So, let me give you an example. This morning, one of my sweet kindergartens, I have twin kindergarteners and I have an 11-year-old. One of my sweet kindergarters had a potty accident, which never happens. It's like very rare for her at school. So, I get a call and thank goodness it was the right timing and I was able to go. So, I go to school and I'm bringing extra pants and shoes and I'm with her and um you know the minute she sees me she's like and I can see there's just like a lot of emotion about it and so we go into the classroom bathroom and she just falls apart and just she says and she kept saying I'm so embarrassed. I said I know it's it can feel so hard — there is a part of me as a parent that doesn't want her to feel embarrassed because she's human. We all have accidents, right? But if I start going, well, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. I'm distancing from her feelings. I'm I might be trying to help her, but I'm actually I'm not wanting to stay in that feeling very long with her. — Yeah. — If I say, "Well, we're going to come up with a plan so that next time that you start to feel that, well, what if I ask your teacher for every 10 minutes to ask you if you need to go potty so that you don't have an accident again? " I might be trying to fix the problem of her having had an accident, but what she will feel is that I can't tolerate this emotional embarrassment state that she's in. And so I just picked her up and held her and I just said, "You feel so embarrassed. " She's like, "So embarrassed. " She put her head in me and I just held her and I looked at her and I held her again. And at some point she started to regulate. And then I used some story with her. I said, "Did you know that I've peed my pants as a grown-up before? " And she goes, "What? " — You know, and I said, "Yeah. " And she's like, "Tell me the story. " And I told her the story about this time I was walking home from work and got caught without a bathroom and was just like I was in my 20s and was like, "I got to just be in my pants. This is so like what? There's nothing else to do. " Um anyway, the but the feeling of you can stay with me while the storm is raging and wait until it passes so

that I don't have to just endure the storm on my own. — Yeah. — And that's the feeling of — and that you're not going to be overwhelmed by it. You're not embarrassed by it. — Yeah. — Because that's part of the self-regulation that's needed as the co-regulator in that moment. — Yeah. And I do, you know, I do have moments of this with my kids. This one, not so much. She's a kindergartener, you know, but yeah, it's like fine. But like if one of my kids is having like a big emotional meltdown in public, you know, there's a little I have to do a little more regulating of my own embarrassment or my own shame to be like, "Screw these grandmas in the grocery store who are glaring at me. Who cares? " You know, like whatever's happening here. Um, so you know, I think the context of when emotion is coming up has a big um impact on how we respond to somebody else's emotion just on a parent level. — Um, but yeah, I think the that secure experience is I am with you in your feelings. I can tolerate what you feel. I can catch enough of it to be with you, but I can maintain enough of my own separateness and sturdiness so that you can flop around as long as you need to safely until your nervous system starts to recalibrate and we both take a nice deep breath together and we move on, you know. And she didn't want me to leave at first after all of that. She stayed with me, stay with And I was like, "Okay, how about I stay for five minutes? " And we like made a little plan and she's just cuddling up to me and then it was time to make elves or something, you know? I was like, "Okay, are you ready? " She's like, "Okay, I'm ready. " Like, "See you later. " — You know, and she could go and she wasn't full of dysregulation anymore. — And the counterpart to the embarrassment is the shame that would accumulate. — Yeah. — Which, you know, I say no emotions are good or bad, but shame is it's I know — it's a tough one. — It is. I mean I know you have connected with Bnee before, but her kind of idea of it being sort of like an obsolete emotion, like we used to need it and we don't really need it anymore. It's just we haven't evolved fully out of it. I like that idea about shame — still here. Yeah. So that was we just focused on the definition of a secure attachment and you gave a great example of that or an example of how you're you don't like firstly this is not like she's got a secure attachment we're moving on. — It's like there's going to be 500,000 more of these moments with your kid over the next 10 years, you know, and beyond. — Yes. And I'm trying to get a 30 to 50% grade on this. That's my goal. pattern of response that show with the presence, proximity, — and coaching. — Um, and what you're trying to do psychologically to your child is for her when she goes when she leaves your arms, she goes back to the classroom, what is your hope in her brain? — I am not alone in what I feel. My feelings made sense to somebody, so they can make sense to me. Um, I can reach for people when I need them. Um, and experiencing relationship as a place, as a resource, as a tool. Like, this is how I can get some of the things I need when life is I call it crusty, musty, or tender. You know, that that's what I want her internal script to be. And specifically in her relationship with me, I want her to be able to say, "My mom will show up for me when I need her, and I will feel better after I leave her presence. " — That's the goal. just makes me I mean when you think about that kind of relationship with anyone whether it's your partner, your kid, your best friend, it's like your nervous system is at ease. — Yes. It feels nice. It just feels so nice to be with our people when our people know how to respond to us in attuned and supportive and present ways. That's the goal. So what happens when we aren't lucky enough to have those people — in our childhood growing up? The three other categories. Number one, we talked about developing sort of an avoidant strategy. — Yeah. — A lot of people get this kind of confused because of the word. I think the word seems like, oh, you're avoiding attachment. If I have an avoidant attachment pattern or style, that means I avoid attachment. new. It means you avoid disclosing your tender and emotional states to people. So when you grew up, you learned very young if I share my feelings with mom, she's going to lose her mind. If I share my feelings with dad, he's going to try to squash my mind. So best thing to do is learn the poker face. — Yeah. and to distance myself even from what I'm feeling and distract myself as a coping mechanism to stay close to those parents. So people often think, oh well

avoidance is about not wanting to be close. No, it's about It's a strategy to stay close to people who can't handle tender emotional states. — Right. Okay. So that's really cool. I mean, it's not cool because nobody It's not the best, but it's a nice way of thinking about it because I mean, in the end, every child wants a relationship with their parent, — right? That's all we got, you know, when we're kids mostly. — And so, the avoidant attachment style, what I'm hearing you say is it's not that I avoid my mother, avoid my father. That's not really, it has nothing to do with that. It's much more around um — emotions. — Yeah. I'm learning to behave in a certain way to preserve the relationship in many ways. — Ding ding. Exactly. And this is so important. My husband had an avoidant pattern with his parents growing up and it took me a while to kind of figure out all of that and how it works in him. And what I've really realized is that for most people who have that strategy, the internal narrative they have is my emotional needs are a burden. — Yeah. — They are unnecessarily messy and I'm and they will make people go away from me. And so I'm hiding it not because I don't want to be close to people, but because I'm convinced that that's the best way to be close to people. And when you start to understand that, you can have a lot more compassion for an avoidant partner or friend. And also, if that is your pattern, you can start to unlock some of that and go, "Oh, wait a minute. This avoidant pattern was because these people were so uncomfortable with emotions. " And it doesn't mean that being emotionally open is always a bad choice. I can work. — I mean, I'm thinking now you're making me reflect on my mother. And so the mental model I think as we grow older is I'm not going to really share because I'm deep inside going to be rejected for it. — Yes. — I know — it's heartbreaking, right? That's like and then you think about like when that's been imprinted across your development and now you finally discover this in therapy at 18 or 25 or 40 — and like reversing that — you know it is possible I do believe otherwise — there's no hope — but um you can see how it would take a while for someone to build that trust and all that. — Yes. and repetitions and practice like and and there's no parent there mentoring you to do that. So you have to find other people and they're not your parents. It's just a whole other process. It's hard. It's totally possible though. — So in terms of let's we're staying with the avoidant piece right now. Um, I want to just throw in a factor of gender because there's so much conversation about gender differences — around there's always, you know, around emotional development, around the way parents talk to their boys and girl children and a binary way of speaking about things. Um, so how where are you from all of your years in like that? It's kind of like biological gender differences versus socialized. — Oh, I'm real strong in terms of the emotional needs and the attachment needs. I am really strong on it as socialized. — Yeah. Good. — And I say that okay. I say that in part from having sat with so many men who have profound trauma around being told you're not allowed to be tender because you're a boy. You have to toughen up and having had to shut down incredibly important stories and needs based on that socialization that had they had permission and when they get permission in adulthood, what comes out is profoundly emotional. — And I think it's easier to put people into boxes than it is to sit with how complicated human hearts and lives are. — Yeah. Um, but no, I'm a fierce advocate for men in saying you get to feel I mean I think the title of your book and you being a man and yourself is so powerful around that of like yes, — you get to feel you were born. You know, babies are just bouncing balls of emotion. That's all they are. You know, that cognitive development it takes a long time. You know, and what's heartbreaking is that, you know, this data because you mentioned it, but you know, we have an understanding that parents will respond less to the cries

of boy babies than girl babies. And guess what? If you are to listen on the sideline, you can't tell which of those cries is male or female. They sound the same. — Half the babies look the same. Like, is that a girl boy? I don't know. You can't tell. You know that. So, I think it's I think personally it's a big part of our — It's a cultural mindset — problem. It's, you know, it's history coming — the perpetuation of — of history of boys don't cry, right? Girls are sugar and spice and all that. — Yes. — So, we've got the dis um the avoidant piece, — but there's two more you were saying. — Yes. Okay. So, and this is where the researchers it's such a funny thing. We've got all these different words and it gets confusing for people. But the I like the word resistant the best for this next category and I'll tell you why. But it's also sometimes referred to as ambivalent attachment. — Um, and there's a word that's used in the social psychology that I also think fits. It's not technically from the developmental psychology called preoccupied attachment. Um, but this kiddo is growing up in a home where a caregiver is every so often emotionally effective. And because of that, I think of it as like they've tasted it. You know, there's a taste of like this, you can be this for me, but it's not in a predictable way. So, the child isn't able to rely on it. Like, okay, I know that I can get this most of the time, 30 to 50% of the time from my parent. It's like it's every once in a while. And what happens is then as an adaptation to keep that caregiver close, that child develops a hyper vigilance on their parent. So the avoidant child's main strategy is ignore what I feel, keep it inside so that nobody gets uncomfortable and weird and we can all sort of get along closely together and I don't lose my caregivers. What the resistant child does is they say I am going to constantly fixate on my parent and try and keep them as close as possible so that they don't leave my side because I don't understand when or why they leave or they're distant or they're unccapable of responding to me, incapable of responding to me. Um that what that leads to is a child who doesn't soothe very easily. And so if my parent um is taking distance from me, I'm anxious, I'm upset, I'm clingy, but when my parent is in the room, I don't actually feel better. So that's a key distinction with that secure parent. So secure kids want their parents close during tender, distressing moments, just like the resistant kids. — But once that closeness happens, the secure kid goes, "Okay, now I'm going to go play with my toys. " — Mhm. The resistant kid goes, "Yeah, you're here now, but when are you going to leave again? " — And they're not in they're not trying to be difficult. make it harder. They're trying to keep the attention of the caregiver on them so that they don't have to deal with the fear that they need them and they can't get to them. Right? And this was my experience with my mother because her depression and her PTSD kind of went in and out depending on her triggers, depending on situations. So, she was able to be soothing and connected enough with me that I knew what it tasted like, — but her mental health was so profound. Her mental health issues were so profound that I couldn't rely on that. So, I think that's part of why I'm such a good therapist, honestly. I studied the crap out of her. I watched every little minute change in her mood and her needs, you know, like what's going on with mom and with my dad, you I know I knew when he don't had I wouldn't say this with exact accuracy, but I would probably tell you the difference between one and four beers, no problem, by the time I was five. — Mhm. — And so that hypervigilance served me well in the context of my parents. And I've had to do a lot of work to unlearn that and let people soothe me as an [clears throat] adult and go, "Oh, wait. Okay, I don't you mean I'm not in charge of making you love me? " Wow. Mind blown. Um, and I really do believe that. So, I guess we should also mention there is a fifth category which we call earned secure, which I do I kind of want a sticker. I want to like make a sticker that we can all wear because I have an earned secure pattern at this point. It's taken me a lot of years, but I really do reach for people and — to say that these are not permanent styles. You know, they describe periods of development — and they change based on all of the relationships we have. I mean, I've had some really good friends and we kind of raised each other through our 20s, you know, we showed up and we were responsive and empathetic and like that was a bonus parenting experience for me of being parented by my peers. — You catch yourself um I'm going to take you for what you said. You've now earned your secure attachment, but um do you catch yourself

still falling into those other patterns? I like to joke that we don't lose our default settings. — And so my default settings will pop up occasionally um in sort of interesting ways like um even professionally they can pop up. Not it's not necessarily an attachment thing but like if I've reached out to someone who I want to like connect with and they don't respond to me — the immediate — the default setting is like what did I do wrong? way they don't like me. How come it's this? And then I'm like checking the, you know, thing like why didn't they respond to me? Um, so yes, those default settings are still there. And I think in high stress, especially like situations you haven't been in before, you know, life stages bring you lots of opportunities for experiencing new stressors. — You might notice those default sting settings come up more. But — so when that happens, — um what do you say and do to support yourself in not falling backwards — in moving forward? — The this is the most oversimplified version of secure attachment I've been able to come up with, which is the wisdom of secure attachment is reach and receive. So that's what I tell myself. Reach. Who are you reaching for? who will be the most empathetic and understanding and attuned. — Mhm. — And then while I'm with them, whether that's on the phone or that's in person, I am focusing my nervous system on receiving it of like, okay, Amanda doesn't think that I'm a terrible mother. Okay, — you know, thank you so much. Thank you for letting that in. Um, I needed to hear that. I'm working on letting myself regulate, — you know, from that old pattern and talking about it out loud. Here's the thoughts in my head. — Right? — It sounds a little like some cognitive work, too, — because I tend to I'm — I'm obviously an academic and I am more cognitive than anything else with my strategies. Mhm. — And so, you know, I'll go into a little bit of CBT of like disputing like — why is this like how do you know for sure this person doesn't want to be with you? — You know, I've been on a vacation and haven't checked their email in two weeks, you know, all that kind of stuff. — Totally. And um and so because it's all you know the the tendency is to um for me is around rejection and uh you know I was bullied terribly and so like I even had when I was writing my new book I was having a wakeup calls about even being happy. Um like I would I was not a happy kid but I did have moments of happiness of course but I remember even you know like if I was feeling proud or happy in a moment it would be like you know you laugh now you'll cry soon Mark you know kind of thing. — Totally. So you've used cognitive tools to begin to say wait a minute I get to be happy. — Exactly. — Yeah. Um or just put that like yes that was what happened then but you know — like look around you should be pretty grateful or you know it's like you can you know choose some of these things to — I think perspective taking is actually related to our attachment experiences and so when you that cognitive work is a part of this stuff because we develop these mental models right and the mental model that your experiences is created for you were like I'm going to be rejected. People are going to reject me. That's I should anticipate that, plan for that, expect that and try and prevent that. — But the process of getting out of that is one part relational is finding your people and then being like there are people who like me. Like the attachment nerd thinks I'm really great — genuinely. — Exactly. and [clears throat] and letting that in, but then also letting that change the script. — Yeah. — And so, you know, it goes from I've been rejected a lot to it took me a while to find my people. — Um, you know, — all those people are so [ __ ] up now. Look at me. I'm doing great. — Does that work for you? I That one doesn't work that well for me for whatever reason. I don't know why. I try it. I do try it. I have a couple of There's one girl from high school who won't accept my friend request on Facebook. — It's so weird. And she's like friends with all these other people and I was very nice in high school. So like what the hell? — Um — Exactly. — And but I've tried to do that too where I'm like well she doesn't have 1. 2 million followers but I can't. It doesn't work for me. I think that's an interesting Yeah. — But it works for you. It does. Does that actually get you out on that? I mean I

don't I'm not like I wouldn't say that partic you know sometimes it will um but I think for me in those moments it's like I take my deep breath and I realize you know Mark you were really these were your challenges back then blah blah — and then sometimes what really does work for me is — um is I remind myself of where I'm at in my life. — Yeah. — You know, and it sounds crazy as like a 56-y old guy, — but I'm like, Mark, you have a PhD, you're a tenure professor, you know, you've got a fifth degree black belt, you know, you're married for 30 years in a great healthy relationship, you've got, you know, blah blah. — And it's like, oh yeah, I'm doing okay. Like, like that was kind of a flashback of pulling me into that insecurity. — Yeah. Um, — and now here it's mindfulness, right? I mean, that's you being mindful of the time that has passed. And — um, you know, I think about body memories as being the feeling states that come to us and knock on our door from years past. And you know, that oh my gosh, I'm rejected body state is usually much younger than our age, right? Because honestly, — who has time for all the people in the world? Nobody. Like, you need a couple of people not to like you and not to call you. like that's important. — But you know, so that adult part maybe really understands like it I don't even like this girl from high school. I didn't even like her in high school. It's very the whole fascinating process. She wasn't a nice person. — So what is actually going on here is a younger part of me. Okay. What how old do I feel when I feel this feeling? And then what you're doing is perspective taking and let's remember how old I am now and that we survived. You survived all that bullying and trauma and now here you are — doing amazing things, connecting with amazing things. — We can just give each other support this whole time. We could leave here and have a great weekend. Um, [gasps] — always my goal. — Yes. All right. So, we've gone from uh avoidant — to the resistant. — And now let's get to that third one. — Okay. So, the last category is called disorganized. And that's because the researchers were looking at these different, you know, pieces of data and these dynamics mostly in the strange situation. So if you want to Google the actual research, that's the I mean Mary Answorth, if I could take one person back from the dead and have lunch with them, she's my person. — Um, but in that research protocol, it was clear that the secure kids had a pattern. Reach and receive, reach and receive. That the avoidant kids had a pattern. Avoid and distract. The resistance kid had a pattern. Reach and protest. I'm going to I want you, but nothing you do makes me feel better. So that means you have to stay here because I'm so upset. I'm going. But there's this other category of kids where as the researchers were watching, I'm like, there's no organization here. The way they respond to distress is disorganized. And through longitudinal studies connected to it, what we've been able to understand is that's because their caregivers were a source of distress and fear. So frightening caregivers. Um the attachment system is designed to say I feel some level of danger or something feels you know unsafe or uncanny. I'm going to find proximity with my caregiver in order to get more safe. — Um so that drive for proximity is the core of the attachment instinct in human beings. But if you're caught between a saber-tooth tiger and a grizzly [clears throat] bear, what are you supposed to do? Well, what happens is that you have much more of a primal response. So, as opposed to a relational response to the distress, which those other three categories are, you have more of a primal response, which is that sympathetic fight, flight, freeze, faint, fun. the confusion in the body is there is no safe place to go. And so what am I going to do? Well, I might howl because that might distract somebody from, you know, going after me. I might also play dead because then maybe you'll leave me alone. — Um, but I'm not going to seek refuge in human arms because human arms have been weaponized against me. And so now I'm scared to get help. It's the most painful. I — I've worked with people who have had every form of trauma I think on the planet at this point and I don't think there is anything as painful as having an abusive caregiver in early childhood. — Yeah. I mean I can you know my early career so I went through many different versions of the psychologist I am today but my initial work was at Belleview

Hospital working with people who had dissociative identity disorder um which is you can't get more unfortunate for your mental health than that in many ways. — No. Yes. Agreed. Um and every single one of them had an abusive there was not one patient that didn't come from an abusive — correct — family — either violently sexually abused or physically abused or mentally abused. — Yes. — And um and you can see how it just completely creates torment in your brain. — Yes. disorganizes not only the attachment process but the mind because we're we are relational creatures. Our mind develops in a twobrain system, you know, and that that's also multiple other brains but in diatic experiences. So, you know, if the person who you rely on to keep you safe is abusing you, your brain the only thing your brain can figure out how to do is to splinter into pieces and it makes the rest of life very hard to navigate. — Yeah. Okay. So, we cannot end our time with — No. Um, this is really interesting and I love the depth, you know, that you of knowledge you have in terms of helping us see through this before and I've studied attachment forever, but I really appreciated the way you framed it and talked about it. So, you know, my area of focus right now is based on emotion regulation. I just wrote a whole new book called Dealing with Feeling — and um and it's been A big focus of that is both self-regulation and co-regulation. And I've made a direct connection um and I wasn't intending to go here but now I want to end with that um around how a parent or a partner's co-regulation style — is impacting the development of an attachment style — in terms you know if you think about it co-regulation from the broadest sense is the intentional use of helpful strategies to support someone else in regular ulating their nervous system, you know, or their behavior. And so, it's pretty clear to me that as parents are listening or teachers are listening that in our work, because my work is in schools, right, and they're doing emotion check-ins. — Yes. — You know, and the thing push back about that, too. Oh, you're, you know, the whole thing we talked about earlier, — you know, it's like you're asking kids to talk about their feelings all day long. It's like, — no, we're not doing that. Nobody should talk about their feelings all day long. But kids are coming to school with feelings that are going to interrupt or support their learning. — Yes. — They should be self-aware and have strategies to deal with those feelings. — They weren't born with those strategies. — None's got to teach them. — Yep. — And um and guess what? You're in school six, seven, eight, nine, 10 hours a day. You're having feelings throughout the school day. Let's make this explicit teaching. — And so we did that. You know, that's ruer my program. Yes. — And um but you can imagine either the parent in the morning, you know, the kid saying, "I don't want to go to school today. " Or the kid showing up to school, you know, having a meltdown are going to be those co-regulators. — Yes. — And I've seen, for example, and I'm going to let's do a little quiz on this. So the kid comes into school and he says, "I'm in the red quadrant and I'm feeling, you know, really upset today and I'm really angry. " And the teacher says,"What's new? " [gasps] — What do you want to ask me? — Not if it's good or bad. I think I stated the obvious, but if you get if you have that kind of response to your emotions, — where will that where does that lead from your perspective? — So, the what will happen for that child depends on that child's nature also, right? their just general personality and how they're wired. But, uh, the experience is that's a hum there's some humiliation in that. That was sort of a mocking response to the child's emotional state. And so, that internal selfnarrative becomes I'm a burden. I'm obnoxious. Something's wrong with me. Um, people aren't there for me. Um, so I need to hide this. Right? And the dilemma is if a kid's in a kid might be in the red zone for a very good reason. Like, hey, guess what? It turns out when they're sitting on the bus next to, you know, Jake R, Jake R has been hitting him in the head with a rubber ball incessantly and is being is bullying him, right? And so his anger is

an incredible guide to his needs and to what's actually happening in his world. And so if we say like, "What's new? " Um, we're literally teaching him to ignore some of the most important regulatory systems in his body. His anger is a form of regulatory support. It is trying to point us towards something. — Yeah. — And now we've taught him to ignore it. And what I will say is that I'm going to argue with your critics because I feel really strongly about this. — Grown-ups who are who struggle to regulate their emotions, it's not because they practiced regulating their emotions a lot when they were younger. It's because they had no opportunity to. And so they there the correlation is the younger a child learns how to put words to what they feel, share what they feel, and cope with what they feel, the more capable and competent they will be as adults in managing their feelings because there is less problematic experience wired in on those systems. — Mhm. — So the second I'm mad, I figure out what I need instead of feeling humiliated. and then trying to humiliate someone else or trying to numb out using drugs and alcohol, right? You know, like emotional. I mean, obviously I'm your people. Do you need me to like stand up to you somewhere? You let me or stand up to someone for you. I'm on it. But like yes, this is how this is hope. Hope for humanity is that we help kids learn how to regulate their feelings with safe, responsive, empathetic, attuned adults so that they can grow into people who don't hate themselves for what they feel and know how to use their feelings as road maps for healthy relating. — That was like a mic drop right there, but we can't end on that because I'm not done yet. — That was awesome. — Thanks. — All right, next one. Um, I come in and I'm in the red zone. Again, we'll just keep it in the red zone so we have consistency across emotion. — And um, and the response is, "Oh my gosh, that's awful. I can't believe it. " Um, you know, I, you know, just go sit in the back for as long as you need and take as much time as you need because I just want you to feel better. I, you know, I feel terrible that you're in that red quadrant. Mhm. So now we have just taught a child that the only thing that matters in the room is their emotions, not their participation in community. And what the child felt from that adult is that adult has no idea how to help me. That adult is overwhelmed by what I feel. They're being very nice to me, but they aren't actually a guide, right? Like, oh, you're lost in the woods. I'm so sorry you're lost. Take as long as you need to find your way out. That's not helpful. It's also not helpful to go, you're lost in the woods once again. Right? That's that first response. But the second response is, you're lost in the woods and you're going to have to get yourself out of the woods. And that feels scary and overwhelming for a kid. And it will teach a kid then anytime I have feelings, I don't have to do anything. I'm no longer asked to participate. — And that doesn't teach them how to tolerate what they feel and have agency and get things done. — Not good either. — Not what we're looking for. Okay. Now, you're going to give us the one that we're looking for, right? Right. — Well, now I'm going to make you do it with me. So, — I'm coming into class. You know, I can't take it anymore. And, you know, I just And I'm just so frustrated and so overwhelmed. And, you know, I don't want to do anything right now. — And you're my teacher. — Okay. — And, you know, a lot of teachers say, I I'm not prepared. I'm not a therapist. I'm not prepared to handle this. — No, I'm just gonna go. — Parents say I'm I you know, go to your room. My that so my just to give you my history. — Yes. — A real one because that was me coming home from school after being bullied and I like I hate school. I'm never going back to school. And my mother would say, "Who do you think you are? Talk to like get to your room. Wait till your father gets home. " — Which was perfect for ruminating and you know and having like cool whip, you know, under my bed that was like probably rotten that I was eating. — Yeah. — Of course you were looking for a parent anywhere you could find one even if that parent was made of sugar. Exactly. — Somebody help me. Somebody help me s here. — So, obviously I'm not, you know, throwing the desk across the room is extreme, but let's just say, you know, I'm really upset right now and, you know, they're not being kind to me and I'm upset and so now you're the teacher in the classroom. From the perspective of healthy co-regulation and helping that kid feel like there's a secure attached adult in the room, — how do you respond? Well, um, tactically, uh, when a kid is escalated like that, I'm actually going to make sure that there's three things happening physically in my response to them, which is I'm going to make sure that my shoulders are curled in, not out, that I'm not posturing above the child, that I'm on their level, so that I can help their amydala sense that I don't intend

control or threat, that my intention is support. So, my body is going to be made smaller, my eyes are more wrinkly. My joke is, this is why I don't do Botox, you know. otherwise you'd lose that from me. But that they can sense in my eyes and my face that I care about their pain. That level of upset and anger is pain. It's not entitlement. It's not abuse. It's pain in a child. It gets trickier as we get into adult categories. So that's a different conversation. But that instinct for empathy is really clear. They can read it on your face. And that my voice is steady but also gentle. So I'm going to go, "Wait, what? What happened? My attention is to the the story that was given to me. I'm so upset. Well, there is never a reason a child is just so upset without something happening. — What happened? Help me understand what happened. [gasps and laughter] — Okay, at that point they may or may not be making sense. I'm doing it like that because half the time when kids are upset, they lose their capacity for meaningful speech. So, I may not be able to understand them yet. I say, "Okay, my gosh, that sounds really bad. Help. Help me understand with even more detail. I need Hold on. Let's take a breath together. I'm with you. I hear you. I'm here for you. Okay, start at the beginning. Tell me what happened. When I was on the bus, this guy was saying this and he was saying that and I couldn't get there and then it's then now we're into tenderness. So now even more so am I expressing empathy. What? Oh my gosh, I am so sorry that happened. That sounds awful. Okay, I'm going to tell you what we're going to do next. First, do you need a hug? I mean, now this gets tricky because I know not everyone's allowed to hug their students, but in a perfect world, this is what would happen in my opinion. — Do you need a hug? — Yeah. Okay, come here. I'm so sorry that happened to you. You didn't deserve that. And I am so glad you told me. And then I pull that kid back out and I'd say, we are going to figure out how to make sure that stops happening, okay? And I'm in charge of that. That's my job is to make sure that stuff's happening. I want you and I to come up with two things that you can do in the next five minutes to help your body feel more safe and calm. Is there another kid in this classroom that you'd want to sit by who you know is safe and won't bully you? Yes, I like sitting by Carson. Great. We're going to move seats. We're going to make sure you're by Carson today. Would it be helpful for Carson to know what happened just so that you have a buddy who knows what went on with you? No, I don't want anybody to know. Okay. Um then how about the other thing? Would you like to take a minute and just go to the bathroom? Just shut the door, be alone for a minute, take some deep breaths, know that nobody can get there, and you're protective and safe. Yeah, I would like that. Okay, you go to the bathroom and then when you come back, we're going to get it started on uh you know, Snowy the Owl worksheet 773, you know. Um and then throughout the rest of the day, I'm doing little touch points with that kid. I'm putting my hand on their shoulder and I'm saying, "I've been thinking about you all day. " Or like, "I got you. I'm seeing you. I'm aware of you. You doing okay? We're checking in and then I'm going to make sure that there's some kind of a plan in place to make sure that, you know, — yeah, — Jake — isn't continuing to have access to Mark in the way he did and that there's then we figure out what the heck's going on with Jake. Why is Jake bullying Mark? — Right. — How'd I do? What do you think? — I'm gonna give you an A. Um the um — cuz I think what you demonstrated was all the things that matter which is the A you approached it so that the child would feel safe and welcome to you know they saw you and that comfort b um you validated acknowledged all that stuff. See, um, you were clear and what I loved most importantly was that you know that your job as the educator in that classroom is number one priority is every kid is safe. — Yeah. Yes. — And like that's a human right. Period. — Yes. — It's not like you know like survival of the fittest third grader. — You got to learn this somewhere. If you don't learn it now, how are you gonna learn it later? No. — B, you didn't say you don't have to do anything like, you know, just give up the day. I understand you're traumatized from this, whatever it is. You said, I'm going to give you some options. ideas. — Um, and then um this and then um you gave them some space to kind of pull themselves together, maybe take a deep breath, get a drink of water. Maybe they need a little break to journal for a minute or something. Sure, that's a good idea. — But then the other piece was that you gave them the um you remind the followth through which often is the failure of this stuff which is — you know that situation is still sitting with the kid. So you had that consistent

touch point and then you have a plan. You can't make the plan right there. And that's important I think for people to hear because in that moment you don't have time to you can't just stop everything in the classroom and be like the only person I have is this. But you made the kid feel safe and comfortable and secure — and gave them maybe an idea or maybe they have a maybe they have learned in your classroom if you did our work and other work a bit of a cognitive strategy of kind of a mindfulness exercise or a selft talk strategy to help them get through the day so that way you can follow through — and provide that kid — you know help that kid and their parent and the other kid and the principal of the school you know build a plan. — Yes. — And I think Go ahead. Well, I was just thinking to the teacher, you know, who's doing this. I kids are kids really are incredibly um resilient in terms of like if they can sense that we care about something that happened to them and they're they actually don't need that much from us. Yeah. — You know, and so, you know, it that little touch throughout the day and like, hey, I've been thinking about you. It's not like, okay, now I have to give up my lunch to meet with this kid at lunchtime now. Like, — it's like do those touch throughout the day. write yourself a note that's like send email to parents and principal because — yes we do have to get that done but I think your presence is incredibly powerful — well and your you not being so freaked out and overwhelmed by it and also you know I'm going to go get that kid and I'm going to rip his head off I mean that would be extreme but you know I did see that growing up actually where teachers were so disregulated you know they would be like I have to tell you know whatever it else it And so then, you know, there's a frightening person in the room who nobody feels safe with. — Yes. — Um, you just demonstrated, you know, again, I am here for you. I am not taken away by your feelings. I'm not ignoring you. And I'm going to be helping you. — Totally. And I care about what you feel. Yeah. I mean, I am here for you. That is the phrase. I am here for you. And I think that's a good filter for all of us as teachers, as parents, as humans in all of our important relationships is like, — you know, is this the thing coming through? Is it I am here for you? Is that what my people are feeling from me? Or are they feeling like I'm in the room with you, but I'm really just on my phone and I'm checked out, you know? Or are they feeling I'm around you, but I'm constantly managing your behavior because I'd like you to be a certain thing as a reflection of me, you know? Like what is it? That's the gold standard. That's what we want. — Okay. So, tell me now as we wrap our time. — I mean, your mic drop moment. I want to like edit this. So, that's the ending. It was so good. — You could totally do that. — Yeah, we could do that. But I I'll keep it where it was so that we have like continuous mic drops. Um, is you know, we've talked a lot about obviously we focused on attachment today, which I thought was great. Um, I learned a lot and I'm just trying to pull it all together in terms of like [clears throat] the take-home message for people. So, when you're thinking about the person who just spent an hour listening to us, — and they're saying, "Well, what do I how do I use what I learned today to be a better mom, dad, teacher? — What is your two or three minute kind of like soliloquy Okay. — And you have a book, too. — Well, I'm going to read from it because I think that I did it better in this book than I can than I can. Okay. So, this is my book comes out in April. This is my newest book. So, you can read my older book. It's called Raising Securely Attached Kids. But this is like my field journal. And this is like how to deal with your emotional states and your bad habits around your emotional states so that your kids can rely on you. Um, so the whole theory of this book is, you know, what are the things that get in the way of our kids feeling secure with us? And the five gifts of the secure parent, I'm going to summarize them as quotes. These would be quotes that our kids would be able to say about their experience with us. So the first gift a kid, our kids or the kids in our classes would say, "My parent or my teacher cares about what I feel and knows how to support me. " Gift number one. Gift number two, my parent or my teacher listens to me and works to truly understand me. Number three, my parent or my teacher lights up when I enter the room. They love being around me. Number four, my parent or my teacher shows up for me when I'm struggling and when I'm celebrating. I think sometimes we forget how powerful it is. I was at a morning performance this morning. We had a like music thing on the foyer or whatever for our kids and there was this adorable fifth grade kid playing Jingle

Bells on his violin and I mean y'all he nailed it and I know this kid and he's always kind of morose and I was I got up as close to as I could and I watched him with you know all intensity and he finished and I looked at him and I was like that was amazing and this kid who honestly always looks like the lights are off he just went and I was like oh buddy I hope you get more of that somewhere. We need that. We all need that. So, it's not just that we show up when our kids are struggling. It's that we show up and we celebrate them when they're celebrating. — And then the last gift is my parent is proud of every part of me. — And that's the gift of our kids getting to be their authentic self with us, — you know, not just their performance self. So, those that's what I want you to take away. I just adore you. Thank you for having me. And me, which I didn't have you, but I uh I did have you on as a guest, but thank you for um just being your authentic self and um enlightening us with your knowledge. Really cool. — So good.