A Goodreads.com Q&A with Susan Cain, Author of 'Quiet', on the Power of Introverts

All right. Uh, hello everyone. Welcome to Authors Live at Goodreads. As always, my name is Patrick Brown. I'm director of author marketing at Goodreads. And, uh, as one of the best parts of my job is I get to host these live chats with best-selling authors. Um, to hear their thoughts about their books and uh, and what's important to them as writers. Um, and to hear from you, the readers, uh, what you felt about their book and what was important to you about it. Um

today we have with us Susan Kaine. She is the author of the instant New York Times bestseller, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. Uh, it's been translated into more than 20 languages. She also, uh, gave an incredibly powerful TED talk about a year ago that has been seen by more than a million people at this point. Um, Susan, thanks so much for joining us on Goodreads. Thank you, Patrick. It's a pleasure to be here. All right. So, maybe just to get started, I think a lot of people who are watching have already read Quiet, but for those who haven't, maybe you could give them just a quick sort of premise or synopsis of uh of what the

book is about. Yeah, sure. Um, so the book is really it's a kind of cultural critique of the society that we live in that has what we what I call the extrovert ideal, which is the idea that the ideal self is bold, assertive, gregarious. Um, now there's nothing wrong with that kind of self. That's a wonderful way to be. But there's an equally wonderful way to be, which is on the more introverted side of things. Um, which is more quiet and more reflective and more serious and um, a little more careful before kind of a look before you leap sort of personality. And um and there's a systemic bias against this personality in our schools and our workplaces and our religious institutions that I believe is standing in the way of individual introverts being all they can be, but really for all of us as a society to be all that we can be. Yeah. So there's a lot in this book about uh workplace environment, schools, the way that we're sort of conditioned to think and act. And I'd want to jump right in because there are actually a bunch of questions here from Goodreads members. Um, but right before I get to those, a lot of these questions are kind of um it's either people saying, "Yes, I'm an introvert and this book really helped me kind of feel okay about myself, which I think is a great reaction to have. " But when you were writing this book, what was your intended audience? Was it introverts specifically? Was it extroverts? Was it everyone? And did you hope that this would be I don't want to use the word a self-help book, but in some ways a book about self-esteem and about feeling okay regardless of how you are as a person? Well, you know, it's funny. I would say

my intended audience for the book is exactly who the audience ended up being, which is um I think I imagine the audience working on a bunch of different levels with the first primary and probably most important level being introverts themselves because I really did want the book to be a way for introverts to be able to wipe away the kind of last vestage of self-doubt that I think many of them are carrying around from really from earliest childhood that there's something wrong with who they are. their preference of how they want to spend their time. Um so I really wanted to empower introverts to kind of do away with that kind of self-t talk that they um have learned. But then beyond that I did really and do want the book to function as a kind of blueprint for society in general. And in fact, just now I'm just coming back from having given a talk to some students and teachers at a private school near my house. And um you know, they were talking about the ways in which their school is set up really for extroverted students and the different kinds of challenges that introverted students face. And I think that's such a mistake for all of us really. You know, we want our students to be learning well. um as corporations I I should take a step back and say um introverts make up a third to a half of the population. That's one out of every two or three people. Like it's a lot of people. Um you know, so if you're thinking about schools, corporations um who want to make the most of the minds and hearts of half of their employee population, we really need to be thinking differently about the way we structure our organizations. um and what qualities we are unconsciously and consciously telling people we value. So, I think that's actually a great uh jumping off point for uh a question from Suzanne, which is what are the top one or two things you wish extroverts knew about introverts? Or another way of phrasing that might be um how do you wish they would behave differently around introverts? Oh gosh, that's a really good question. So many answers. I guess Suz I think it was Susanna or Suzanne. Suzanne. So, one thing I would say is um I would love for extroverts and for everyone really to understand that being introverted does not mean being asocial or antisocial. Um so, introverts as a group are just as warm and caring and in need of and desiring of intimacy as anybody else, but they want to get it through different channels, right? you know, they they'd much rather uh kind of lavish their energy on friends and family who they know well um and not as much on kind of big crowded parties and that kind of thing. I I actually have a kind of saying that I came up with about this that love is essential but gregariousness is optional, right? So, that's one thing that I I would like people to know. And another is that introverts tend to think things through at a pretty deep level. like they really want to process things deeply before they articulate them. Um so that's hugely important to understand if you're running a meeting, let's say, and you want to hear from everybody. Um you need to know that half the people in the meeting are probably needing to think things through an extra beat or two beyond what the dynamic of the meeting is and that by the time they think of the thing that they want to say, the discussion has moved on or the meeting might be over. Um so it really calls for a restructuring of the way we interact with each other. All right. Uh, so this is a question from a good readads member Gail. Uh, Gail describes herself as an innie and, uh, it was says, "It was an absolute relief to read your book last year. " So, her question is about job interviews. Uh, she says, "I recently

failed an interview because I came across as too much of a nie. What are some techniques I can use to act more like an extrovert when I need to? " Right. Okay. It's a great question, Gail. Um so first of all I just want to make a kind of blanket observation that I have gotten a lot of letters from people interestingly who have said that the more comfortable they've become with being an introvert the more comfortable they are presenting an external self at job interviews and that kind of thing because you know that their self-comfort comes through in a an inner form of confidence. So I think you're in the right direction. Um, now in terms of specific tips for you, I

would suggest practicing your interview beforehand. You know, really roleplaying it with a trusted friend or a trusted advisor so that you can figure out in advance which are the spots you're comfortable with. Um, where are the places that you get less comfortable and

less fluent? Um, what are the minor tweaks that you can make to your self-presentation that will um, enable you to connect with the person while not trying to, you know, completely transform yourself. Um, and you might want to watch yourself on videotape because for many introverts, you know, we naturally speak softly, right? Um, and what can feel like yelling to us can actually come across as a normal tone of voice um, for a setting like a job interview. And so if you watch yourself, you might be able to even coach yourself on the kinds of tweaks and adjustments uh that you would need to make that probably wouldn't be that hard, but that would really raise your game by a significant amount, right? Um kind of on a similar note, uh this is a question from Haley, and Haley uh has a job that involves a lot of public speaking and Haley says, "I was wondering uh is

it possible to do public speaking in a more introverted way? Then uh did you have any tricks for preparing for your TED talk which I mentioned in the introduction. Oh gosh. Yes. Haley, this is such a big question for me because I used to be so terrified of public speaking. I mean really to a degree you probably can't imagine or maybe you can. Um but I I'm really not anymore. And I never would have thought this possible. So here's what I did. First of all, um before my book came out, I spent about a year practicing at a local Toastmasters chapter, which is uh you probably heard of it. It's an organization and you can join your local group and um excuse me, and practice speaking in a safe and supportive environment, excuse me, where it doesn't matter how nervous you seem or how much you might stumble. You know, the point is to just get yourself to a level of comfort that first for many people takes a really long time. So you want to go through that effort in a place where the stakes are very low. Um the second thing that I did that was really helpful is I looked for role models. You know I knew that I was never going to be the kind of public speaker who was like the big you know razledazzle huge personality on stage. That wasn't who I was. Um so I wanted to find role models of people who were more of my more within my own temperament. Um, now for me, one of the most effective role models, this is just mine. I'm giving you as an example, you're going to find your own. Um, for me, Malcolm Gladwell was a

really great role model because he's a writer and clearly an introvert. At the time that I um noticed this about him, I hadn't actually even heard him identifying himself that way, but it was just clear to me uh by the way he spoke, you know, he was kind of hesitant and low-key and very cerebral, but incredibly effective. You know, people consider him a world-class speaker. So it helped me so much to know that there was somebody who was speaking very powerfully but in a style that felt like I could relate to it. I think that goes a really long way. Right. Um so this is uh another question. So this I think will be hopefully our last question about kind of advice about how to deal with different things. There's a bunch of other questions that are maybe more theoretical that I want to get to as well. But this is from and I don't I hope I'm pronouncing this correctly. A p maybe a z pa. Anyway, if I butchered your name, I apologize. Uh, do you have any advice for shy and/or introverted students who are graded based on how much they participate in class discussions? That's a big challenge. Uh, you know, in high school and college, teachers want you to be talking and participating. And if that's not a comfort level for you, how do you get over that? Oh gosh. Yes. We were just talking about this at the school where I told you I was speaking today. Such a big issue. This comes up in almost every school I know. Um, and I first of all, I would like to say for any teachers or educators who are out there, we really need to rethink what we mean by class participation. Um, I think it's great to encourage kids and to give kids the tools to become more comfortable with public speaking. Um, I'm sorry, with class participation. Uh, but at the same time, I'm very leerary about grading on class participation and uh, I think we need to broaden our sense of what participation and engagement means. you know it can take many forms like written communication and that kind of thing but okay to as question here is one trick that I find goes a long way prepare in advance before the class one or two or three things that you want to say uh and make sure you're really comfortable with those things and then make sure when you get into the class to say at least one of those things early on and the reason for this is first of all if you wait a while the anticip ipatory anxiety that you're feeling is going to build up throughout the class. And by the time you speak, you're going to feel more like the spotlight is on you because you're going to have this inner monologue in your head of, oh, you know, she's finally she hasn't been talking all this time and now she's finally speaking and what's going on. You want to kind of get bypass all that by speaking way up front. What speaking early on also does for you is it establishes you early on in the discussion as one of the people in the room, you know, as a present as a presence in the room. You'll feel it yourself and other people will start to interact with you that way and that's going to give you more confidence and it's going to make you feel more engaged and integrated, right? Um, so I think this is a great transition question actually. It's from came in relatively recently from Brian Demkowski and Brian asks, "I've heard several of your interviews and podcasts and a lot of them uh the same questions get repeated as is, you know, sort of unavoidable, but what's the one question that you want to be asked but haven't and what's the answer to that question? " Wow. Wow. It's a tough one. Yeah, that's such a good question because I feel like I really have been asked so many different questions. Um, shoot. I don't know. You know, I think I'm going to punt on that a little bit and I'm sorry. I just feel I because there's so many. We could we'll come back to it. I'll tell you what, it and if it comes to you, jump in and we'll go to that one. So, this is a question from Patty. Patty asks u page 146, very specific. Uh, you cite David Sloan Wilson's notion of fast and slow animals. Um he refers to the fast ones as bullies who are particularly reward sensitive. Uh do you

see any correlations between extroversion and bullying in humans? Oh that's interesting. I don't know that I would

say that there's a correlation between extroversion and bullying. There can be a correlation between introversion and being bullied. No, not necessarily at all. You know, there are plenty of introverted children who um are not at risk for bullying. The place the place where introversion can overlap with being bullied is for introverted kids who are more isolated in school. You know, bullies will tend not to attack the kid who has lots and lots of allies who can rise to their defense, right? Um so, a kid who really does tend to be um on the extreme end of the solitary spectrum, that can be an issue. And also many introverts tend to be sensitive. You know, they tend to be emotionally sensitive and blaze look out for the kids who show a deep emotional reaction to their taunting or their physical assaults, whatever it happens to be. Um so that's the worrisome correlation that I see that we really need to get in front of. Right. Um this is a question from

Victor. Uh can introverted leaders be as effective as extroverted? I think leadership is an area where obviously there are a lot of qualities that are associated heavily with extroverts. What

are some techniques an introverted leader can use to lead effectively despite being an introvert? Oh well, you know, first of all, there's a lot of interesting research out there on the ways in which introverted leaders are often more effective. There's a study out of Wharton uh recently that found that introverted leaders are more effective than extroverts when they're managing employees who are very proactive because they're more likely to let those proactive employees actually, you know, run with their ideas and go for it. Um an extroverted leader is shaping things more on their own and not hearing as much from other people. Um, it's also interesting, you know, there's this

whole concept of level five leaders that came from the research of Jim Collins who looked at the top performing companies in the country and found that they were all led every single one of the 11 companies he studied, you know, outstanding companies. Um, they were all led by leaders who on the one hand were really committed to their company and had a fierce sense of will and passion, right? Um, on the other hand, all of these leaders were described as shy and modest and unassuming and low-key and soft-spoken and you know this whole constellation of traits that we don't normally associate with leadership. And I think there's a lot of wisdom in that observation because the thing for introverts is they don't tend to ascend to leadership positions for the sake of being a leader. You know, it's usually not that appealing to them intrinsically. But what happens for introverts is they get very passionate about one or two or three things in their lives. You know, and it might be their company, it might be a division, creative outlet, you know, could be anything. Um, and in the service of that thing, they amass huge quantities of knowledge. They uh become connectors with other people in their field. They become experts and people start to look to them and they kind of rise to leadership positions almost in spite of themselves, right? And if you look around, you find these leaders everywhere. I mean, they're all over Silicon Valley. you know, Larry Page and Versa Mayor and Sergey Brin, all these people are introverts. Um, they're all over political history. So, it's a kind of interesting paradox. Yeah. I' I'd add that I think our CEO is a bit of an introvert as well, and I think it serves him well. So, um, yeah. What are the ways in which you think it serves him well? Well, I think he has a very thoughtful I mean, you were talking earlier about really thinking something through before expressing it. I think he's very good at that and that's a good thing to hear because it keeps him from being rash and making sudden decisions and um Yeah. So I always feel like what's coming out of his mouth is very considerate which I think is a great thing as Yeah. It can inspire a lot of confidence. Um I mean now I would say in introverted leaders just like extroverted leaders really they have to sometimes step outside their comfort zone, right? So, if you're an introverted leader, um, one tip that you probably need to remember is to maybe even schedule into your day, um, that every day at 1:00 you were going to go and walk the halls or, you know, whatever kind of office space you have, but every day at 1:00 you're going to go out and you're going to just go and randomly chat with people. Um, because an introvert's tendency is usually more to stay at your desk and kind of keep plowing things through and thinking things through and not scheduling in time for those random interactions, right? Um, that can actually be useful. So, it's just a matter of pushing yourself around the edges here and there, right? It goes a long way. Uh, if you're just joining us, we're chatting with Susan Kaine about her book, Quiet, uh, The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. Uh, let's see. So, that was a question kind of about uh, attributes of personality and how they help or hinder leaders. Um, this is a question from Rich. Uh, what aspects of character have served you best to become someone who's obviously thriving and comfortable in your own skin? Huh? Well, thank you. It's a good question. Um, gosh, you know, I don't know. I think one of them has to do with uh the tendency I was just talking about in introverted leaders in general. You know, I tend to get really passionate about whatever I'm into and then really sit and focus on it. So like in the case of this book, I spent years and years writing and researching it and thinking about it deeply. And people would ask me, "Aren't you tired of it already? " You know, I was working on it since 2005 and it didn't come out till 2012. And the truth is, I never once got tired of it and I'm still not tired of it. You know, it's something I care about, so I'll just keep on going. Um, you know, I think another thing for me is although I I'm not a gregarious person at all, I really don't like to hang out in groups practically ever. Um, but I really like people. So, I I'm pretty good at connecting with people in a one-on-one way. And I've turned into a good listener over time. Um, which I think all of those are kind of natural introvert ways of interacting that people really underestimate the power of. Yeah. Um, so you just mentioned sort of uh researching and writing this book and being committed to that. Uh, this is a question from Dev uh that came in just recently. For writing this book, were you inspired uh by a specific person or an idea or what was sort of

the the early genesis of the idea to write Quiet? Wow. You know, I feel like I've been getting ready to write Quiet for my entire life. um since I was about four. I you know I I've been aware of this introvert extrovert dynamic in society since then. I I can remember being in summer camp at that age and just observing how I was really much more comfortable interacting with people one-on-one and how we were always being asked to interact in these big groups and sing big boisterous songs and it never and it was supposed to be really fun and it never seemed very like much fun to me. you know the these kinds of things. I've been kind of an observer of social dynamics all my life um and particularly of this introversion extroversion question. And then later on in life, I became a corporate lawyer and then a consultant. And I started noticing that um that the only language that we had in the workplace for talking about identity was the language of gender. And yet that didn't seem to gender didn't seem to account for these more fundamental differences that I was observing between the way introverts and extroverts did their jobs. Right. Um and I saw that uh you know it was interesting like as a lawyer I was observing how there were some kinds of situations where the extroverted lawyers were a better fit for the situation and other kinds where you needed more of a more quiet considered style and um yeah so there's just this idea that we really need both kinds at different times and we needed to be rejiggering things right um so a couple questions about the writing of this book or the uh publication of this book. So, this is a question from Jennifer. Uh, was this a difficult book to pitch? Um, you know, how did you convince your publisher that there was an audience for this considering that introverts are a minority of the population? Um, how did you know that it'd be a book that would appeal to so many different kinds of readers? Now, that is a funny question because the answer is I personally had no idea. you know, when I was writing the proposal for this book, like I thought I'd be lucky if five people wanted to read it. You know, I had no idea of what was going to happen. Um, but I then um I then was really lucky to find my incredible, amazing literary agent, Richard Pine, who immediately saw what the book was going to become. I mean, instantly, like, he never doubted it for one second, right? and he then sent my book proposal to all of New York publishing. And the reality is that most of the people who work in publishing in New York appear to be introverts, which I guess it's not that surprising when you think about it. You know, there are people who love to read and that's why they go there. Um, so they all got it right away. you know, when I would go to these meetings with with editors and marketers at the publishing houses, um, we'd sit around in a meeting talking about the potential for the book and go around the room and like everybody would identify themselves as an introvert. So, I think like all these publishing houses just felt in their bones um what how much the book needed to be written, right? So, I was just really lucky that way. Had no idea. So this is a question from Joe Kim which is uh please tell us about

the craft of writing seeing as this is your first book um and says really

hoping not the last uh how confident were you in your writing method and style and how was it you know you you've obviously written in other professional aspects of your life but how different was it writing you know a narrative or a book that you knew people were going to be reading right well you know one important answer to that question is I stopped practicing law in 2001 and I didn't start working on quiet till 2005. So during those four years in between I was actually working on my writing in every conceivable genre but not professionally you know I was um I wrote a play, I wrote memoirs, I wrote a memoir in pros and one in poetry. I wrote essays. I wrote a little bit of a novel. I like I did all kinds of stuff and I never tried to publish any of it. Um, you know, now as I tell that story, in retrospect, it sounds like, you know, I was doing that all with the idea of the grand finale being this book, Quiet. But of course, at the time, I had no idea that there would be a book called Quiet. Um, but I think that process of just taking my time and writing as a hobby the way I wanted to was incredibly helpful because it allowed me to develop my voice and confidence as a writer without any pressure of feeling like a publisher was going to be reading it or a real audience would be reading it. Um, so by the time I came to write in quiet, I I had developed that sense of comfort. Um, but I would still say, you know, even with that um I produced the first draft of Quiet and I had done all this research and had left a lot of the research out of that first draft because I thought that would make the book kind of too heavy. And Crown, my publisher, to their credit, read it and said, "You know what? No, you need much more research in here. Go back and take as much time as you need to do a different draft. " And so I started the whole thing over from scratch. And so the whole process took a really long time. And I'm so grateful to Crown for having done that because it's not that typical. You know, usually there's a lot of pressure on writers to they sign a contract with a publishing house and then you got to get the book done very quickly. And they were like, "Nope, take the time you need. " And I will always be grateful for that. It's refreshing to hear that. I mean, I think actually that and this is just ane I have no evidence for this, but it seems to me that there's maybe an increased not I wouldn't say tolerance, but maybe appetite for books with a lot of research in them. Just the popular non-fiction books of the last few years have all seemed very research heavy to me. Whether that's Malcolm Gladwell's work or a book like Lean In or Quiet um Thinking Fast and Slow that they're all very they're laden with case studies and examples. And I think that the sort of mainstream reader now is almost expecting that from a work of uh a work of non-fiction that's about ideas or something along those lines. So, it's nice to hear that they had you do that. But yeah, no, I think so, too. And I think you're right. And, you know, it's funny. I feel really grateful to those writers who came before me and kind of um blazed the path for doing that kind of non-fiction because I don't know that I would have had the guts to do it myself. And I I think actually ironically part of my um reluctance to put all that research into the first draft was kind of a reflection of what it was like to be an introvert growing up in an extroverted world. Which I mean like you know I grew up always feeling like my tendency to want to be really serious and do a lot of research was kind of dorky and something that I should try you know that other people wouldn't like as much as I did. Um, so I think I car at first carried that over into my writing and thought, you know, I love all this research, but other people are going to find it dorky and eggghhead, so I have to steer clear of it. Um, so there you go. Um, so we've been talking about Quiet and the process of writing that book. Um, there are a lot of people asking kind of what's next for you. So I guess I'll pick Scott Morgan who just

asked this a minute ago. What might the next book be about and what are you working on now? Oh gosh. Well, this is a hard question because I do have an idea for a second book and I'm slowly researching it, but and it's on a completely different topic from Quiet that I think I'm not ready to talk about just yet. I'm sorry. Um, but really Hello. Susan, hey. Are we back? We are, but I can't see you. Um, okay. Wait. Uh, how's that? Can you see me now? Yep, now you're there. Hey, sorry about that. Sorry about that, everyone. So, we totally I can't see you, by the way, but I guess that doesn't matter. That's okay. They can see me. So, we lost your answer about uh what you're working on now. So, maybe you could just start there and we'll uh we'll quickly continue. Oh, you did you lose the whole answer or did you get any of it? We I heard you've got a book that you're not quite ready to talk about yet and then it cut out. So, maybe you could just quickly finish that. And so then the other thing is um yeah when quiet first came out I was continu and I still am continually asked by individuals and schools and businesses um you know how to please give us tools to help us implement these ideas. And so the next thing I want to do is deliver those tools and help people um to to run with these ideas and make them a concrete reality. So I'm actually in the process now of creating an organization that will do that. And so, um, for people who are interested in that, please stay tuned and come to my website and sign up for my newsletter and you'll be hearing more about it. But, um, you know, because it's in the very early stages, but I'm looking at developing, um, online courses and public speaking for introverts, um, curricula for teachers, uh, that they can use to better understand and harness the talents of their introverted children. Um, same thing for business leaders uh and managers who want to think about how to um make the most of the hearts and minds of the introverts in their organizations and on and on. You know, I basically I think this is going to be a life's work for me. Um, so stay tuned and hope that and based on the questions and the comments that are coming in this chat, I think that'll be something that a lot of people are they're going to be very receptive to. So, um, good luck with that. Thank you. So, I guess you know, in conclusion, I you know, we're basically out of time now. Sorry for the brief technical glitch there. But we um I like to end uh these chats by asking kind of a book related question because we're uh we're Goodreads. We're a site for people to come and talk about what they're reading, get book recommendations, etc. So, this is a question from Goodreads member Koko Sanchez. Uh are you a big reader as well? And uh what are some of your favorite books or authors? And then I guess I would just add to that. What what's something you've read recently or that you might really recommend everyone? Uh, wow. Well, um, yes, I am a huge reader. Always have been. And, um, the most recent book that I read and loved just recently was uh, A Thousand Splendid Sons by now, I know I'm going to mispronounce his name um because I don't have the book in front of me, but Khed Hoseni. Um, am I mispronouncing that? No, I think that's right as far as I know. Okay. Oh my gosh, it was such a good book. And you know, I um I had to travel all the way to Brazil and back, so I had a lot of hours in the airplane and was delayed. And I'm very grateful to him because those hours flew by. I have no idea where they went, but his book was just so mesmerizing just the way the Kiterunner before it had been. And so now I want to read his next one. I can't remember the name, but um you know, he writes these novels about life in Afghanistan. and the the storytelling is just absolutely dazzling. So yeah, I I'm a pretty wide ranging reader. You know, I love fiction when it's great and uh and I also love non-fiction. You know, I've seen before that I was really inspired by the genre of non-fiction writers like Malcolm Gladwell and like Daniel Conorman who kind of came before me and paved the path for this kind of researchheavy non-fiction. Um and I love that genre. Yeah. Uh well, thank you so much for uh for taking the time to uh to chat with us today and uh and thank you to everyone who asked us a question. Um there were far too many questions to get through in a half an hour or even frankly a half a day. So uh so much interest in this book. Uh so many people that obviously really connected with it. So congratulations to you Susan on that and good luck with whatever's coming next. Thank you so much. And you know I want to say I feel bad that there are so many questions that we didn't get to. So, if you want to come to my Facebook page and post those questions. I can't promise to answer all of them, but I will do my best over the next week to answer what I can. So, um, please do that. And I'll send you a link to this chat page so you can see all the questions on Goodreads as well. Oh, that sounds great. Oh, good. Okay. All right. Um, thank you so much everyone and uh stay tuned for the next uh Good Reads authors live at Goodreads. Thank you, Patrick. All right.