How to Advance Your Career Without Managing People | Sam Gregg-Wallace

We're not a OKRd driven company. Instead, we have a founder who sets a green path for where the company ought to go. All of HR and talent at Shopify is in low distraction mode. And don't interrupt the people that are working on Shopify, the product, unless you absolutely have to find people that actually give a and put that concept or that like that drive of giving a into everything they do. Then the outcomes are just going to be phenomenal. What we've done is built this super cool rewards wallet that allows them to select how much equity versus cash they want to do. This person got an amazing far exceeds rating and it's just beautiful. I've got such a soft spot for high agency people. We see almost twothirds of our engineers using cursor every single day. Okay. Uh welcome everyone. My guest today is Sam, VP of talent at Shopify. Uh really excited to talk to Sam about creating possibly the most radical career system in tech. Uh that includes elevating individual crafters to the same level as managers, making AI usage mandatory, and building a distraction-free talent operating system. So welcome, Sam. Thanks for having me, Peter. Super excited to be here. All right, so um let's get right into it, man. Like how is Shopify kicking down the traditional career l ladder? Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, Shopify was built with a commitment to craft. That's at the core of everything Shopify does. Um, one of the amazing things about Shopify is it was founded by Toby with a real like with a real dedication or philosophy that craftsmanship is at the core of every great product. It's the loadbearing property Um and as a result it's also necessary for building a world-class company. Um that craftsmanship is the core thing. And so what we have endeavored to do is really kick

down the traditional corporate ladder and give crafters the ability to be just as important or more important than managers. or said in a totally different way. Companies hire people for the skills that they have developed over their careers and their own life journey and then quite often they attach they you know they put them to work they start to reward them. But in order to get the most important rewards, they quite often have to go up that corporate ladder, probably move into some adjacent career path uh and become a manager to get either the recognition or the responsibilities or the rewards um that they're looking for when in when what we want to do is allow those crafters to cook, allow that commitment to craft to shine through everything we do. And so what we're doing is trying to build as much of a low distraction uh as as much low distraction but meaningful careers and give those crafters as much responsibility as possible um with as little process as po as absolutely possible. So that's what we're trying to do by kicking down that traditional corporate ladder is put craftsmanship right back to the heart uh and at the forefront of everything Shopify does. I love that. I think people who you know people who give a about the craft and quality of the product they don't want to spend all their time thinking about career letters and promotions and all this other stuff. They just want to make the product better you know. Exactly. And I think you call this system the mastery system right. So maybe you can give us a demo of what this looks like. Yeah. Sure. I mean just to sort of repeat that like craft is at the core of everything we do and so we while everybody's career journey is different um we're trying to attract the best crafters in the world and that's people who have honed their skills in other other careers other uh but it's also brand new people to uh um the journey of being an engineer developer or product manager. And so we get people in who are quite late in their careers or through say our apprentice product manager program. And then once you are at Shopify, everybody has um is part of our what we call a mastery system. Um and so why don't I just show you what that looks like. Um who's a C6 software

engineer. Uh this is a crafter who, you know, Andrew doesn't quite work here yet, but he will. Um, everybody at Shopify has a mastery number. The goal here is that this is to approximate the progress in the craft of their job. So that should be a combination of the impact they've made to the company and to the mission and to our merchants and the skills that they've developed along the way. Uh, and so what you're seeing here is um is that all promotions are based on this mastery system. Uh and um there there's a combination of net impact and calibrations, but it all come back comes back to the craft uh to the craft of in this person's case of a crafter at a level seven software engineer. Um, and everything in this system is all of the unlocks of rewards of uh titles of new responsibility are um are based on that mastery system. I I love the Pokemon card. The king mean what motives is that by the exact like we're a remote first company and I think what that means is you know a career journey can both be very personal and very serious and contributing to the mission is really important but at the same time it can be delightful and also feel a little bit more like a video game. Uh and we try to build a lot of our uh tools to also be delightful. Right. this person got an amazing uh far exceeds rating and it's just beautiful treatment. How do you uh there's like a graph there but like how do you define what craft is? I mean for like a software engineer or like a PM. Yeah, totally. What what we're trying to do at Shopify is know what excellence looks like in every role. Uh and so we have we start from first principles for a developer. what are the uh what are the things that an individual developer uh what skill set do they need to have in order to contribute to the mission and deliver for our merchants and so you can elucidate those things you can lay those things out and then start to evaluate people on it. Um but every single journey, every single individual is different and that's why mastery is designed to approximate the uh the cumulative sum of that person's impact and craft skills. And so while this is a uh so while there is a mastery number and everybody has one that individual journey is totally different and evaluated based on the things that are um that we would be able to say show point to and say this is what excellence looks like in that job or in that role. Okay. Like depending on the like the function and the product and every everything else, right? Just like a bunch of context. Exactly. So each of our roles have a list of sort of scope requirements that lay out what excellence looks like and uh and people have can see those can compare against other roles be able to see what those scope requirements are in other levels and all that sort of thing and uh and be able to um be able to uh sort of strive for those things. And do you mind if we do like a little bit of a deep dive on like product managers? Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean what I think is most interesting is the entire system together, but we can go deeper on that specific discipline or craft. Yeah. So like I find that like it all comes down to incentives, right? And like I' I've worked at like a lot of different companies and um a lot of times PMs are evaluated based on uh you know like for example like you get a lot of pure feedback like did you do the stakeholders feel good about you or like did you push some number this core quarter which might not be tied to craft right or maybe like um like how many people did you align to go in the same direction on like this big project right when in reality like a lot of times like a small team that just has a bunch autonomy can actually improve the product a lot faster than like trying to align like 50 people. So, I don't know. H have you thought about all this? All this stuff is like pretty gray and nuanced, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. What we try to do like

aligned incentives are is you know, show me the outcome and I'll show you the incentive. Yeah. It what we try to do at Shopify is really focus on the mission. We're not a OKRd driven company. Instead, we have uh we have a founder who sets a green path for where the company ought to go. We have a mission that's super easy to fall in love with, to make commerce better for everyone, to make entrepreneurship more common by removing the complexity to to entry into success. Um and then that green path translates into product themes and goes to every product manager, engineer, designer, data scientist. And then they make progress on the projects that actually move us towards that green path. And the goal here is to have every incentive aligned so that every person at the company is working on that green path. And I think uh I love that and I think you can kind of so is a lot of the calibration discussions happen around like you know does this person deliver a great product like do the merchants love this product is that kind of yeah I mean what we do is because we're a software company a lot of the things that um that most are delivered to our merchants are observable and so we know who has worked on what great products and we know what impact that's had on merchants or on the company, right? And so that component is really observable. Um and we have really great homegrown tools um for one called GSD or get done that tracks all of our projects and make sure that they're mission aligned they are aligned to exactly what that green path that was set by. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, because I think a lot of the issues comes from when like you spend so much time on like polishing some internal document or like you know having a good review of Toby and they don't deliver anything like that that is kind of like the stuff you want to avoid. Right. So exactly and that gets right back to craftsmanship. Yeah. Let crafters cook, right? What what is the biggest slowdown is seeking internal alignment or writing dock instead of just doing the work prototyping and shipping code. Okay. Yeah. I feel like you know honestly I feel like I don't know why but like I feel like 90% of companies don't like they're more focused on the internal stuff than the actual pro product. Man I don't know why is it like uh too much bureaucracy or what? It's hard to get around. Yeah. When you focus on craftsmanship, I think a lot of that gets out of the way. And what we're trying to build is what we're trying to do is put all the other pieces into low distraction mode. All of HR and talent at Shopify is in low distraction mode and don't interrupt uh don't interrupt the people that are working on Shopify the product. Um unless you absolutely have to. Can you talk a little about that? So let's take an example like the performance review process, right? Like it takes like a lot of bigger companies like the entire company takes like a few weeks off to do this stuff every quarter. How do you make this load to this distraction? Yeah. I mean what we try to do is as I said put Shopify, HR and talent into low distraction mode so that crafters can focus on the thing that they need to do. Um and so what we try to do is have is in our review or mastery cycle is required the least amount of time from those crafters as possible. So it's a super important step where we are trying to where we're trying to get as much signal as possible on what excellence looks like and how people have done in that in during that period. But from crafters, all we really need is, hey, tell us some of the things that you're proud of. Tell us how you've grown and then give us some reflection on the other people you've worked with. Who inspires you? What has been great uh from your peers or who or the opposite from your peers and the people you've worked with? and then get back to work and in a couple weeks uh back comes your manager with a their what you just saw Andrew's mastery report which sort of shows you based on the work you've actually done the skills you've grown over that period whether you've gotten a promotion whether you've gotten more rewards whether you've unlocked a title whether you uh whether you should be working on something on some new project for example um and so for crafters it's actually a very small amount of work but it's a really important. It's a really important step because we want to reward the most impactful people to the company. I mean for managers it's a little bit more work because that's sort of core to the craft of management, right? If you have chosen to go into that management craft, this is what comes with it. And so those managers will be calibrating their teams, seeing who has the best the best craft skills in that job. um they'll be writing reviews, pulling 360 uh feedback from peers, and then making the hard decisions about distributing um rewards and other unlocks uh to their teams. And how do you um let me ask you a hard question, right? So like let's say you have two PMs. One is like a crafter solving a complex problem and another one is like a manager of like maybe three PMs under the like or do you I guess do you evaluate the managers separately from the crafters or is it like kind of Yeah, absolutely. We think that management is a craft in its in and of itself. Um you definitely cannot manage PMS if you are not a in product yourself. But it is a different job set. And when I referred to sort of scope requirements and determining what excellence looks like in every job, we have laid out what excellence looks like in the craft of management um in the product craft. Um and so those folks would be uh evaluated in a different way because it is a different job. Yeah, I mean that makes a lot more sense, man. Like that trying to combine everything together because yeah, like you said, it's a completely different in fact when you become a manager, you're make a conscious decision to in some ways kind of step away from the craft of building products to the craft of managing, right? Yeah. I mean we want everybody to be as close to the work as possible, but the job of a manager is primarily to make sure that the people on their team are working on the right things, doing it at the highest quality level, and making sure you're getting the most out of those people so that they are able to focus on the right things, are able to grow. But that's a fundamentally different craft than being a crafter or an individual contributor yourself. I love that. And how does this all translate to like job titles or compensation, right? Cuz like some people just want to get the director title or you know this one. How does that Yeah. I mean these are all incentives, right? And we think really deeply about incentives. It if I here I'll show you another cool thing here. Go back to Andrew's mastery page. Um, Andrew did really great. He's gotten some really good feedback from his team, and uh he's been given a

promotion of some more money, more mastery points, and he's actually unlocked a new title, uh, as a result of that. And so, he can go in and select that new title, and that will be there um on uh in all the places where he shows up. but he also gets to uh go to his another uh internally built uh tool which is his rewards wallet. Um and so maybe I'd talk about this is a very cool thing that we've built at Shopify which is Flex Comp. And this is a product where what we try to do is give our employees as much agency as possible. this person's unlocked a great salary. Um, but we don't want to say, "Hey, you we actually think you should divide that between equity and cash in the following way or lock you in for a certain number of years. " We want to give you the agency to do that. Um, and so what we've done is built this super cool rewards wallet that allows them to select how much equity versus cash they want to do, whether they want that to be in reward in options or RSUs and then if they want to take that out every quarter or actually maybe they want to build their own box car grant uh in the same way that we reward um our executive levels and we give them a bonus for putting it in Shop Cash, which is an incredible program. If you're not on shop yet, Peter, you got to get on there. Um, where they can take more uh more Shop Cash, we'll give them a bonus and they can be buying from great independent Shopify merchants when they need that stroller or whatever, whatever the thing is. Um, or if they're a little bit more um more sustainability-minded, they can also put some of that money towards carbon removal. So again, this is that's how it translates to rewards at Shopify and we want to give people agency to do it. That's incredible. I don't think I've ever seen something like this anywhere. Yeah, it's super fun. It's super and people like, you know, every time they get a new a promotion, then they come in here like you saw on that last page and they can adjust it when whenever they want and then the changes get picked up. Um and uh and there's sort of new features all the time. It's super cool. Wow. And this must be hard to build, right? Because it has to work with the backend systems and like everything, right? Like this is Yeah. A huge what we what we're building at Shopify is almost all homegrown. Um and so I think what we've realized is that if you want um something that's aligned with the principles of the company, you likely can't buy off-the-shelf third party software um for company building. And so we put a lot of energy um into doing those things. So the employee experience is phenomenal and it's all mission aligned. What do you mean you don't like work? Workday is like the best software. No, there there's Yeah. No, I I think it's really important to invest especially for this like u employee happiness career growth stuff like investing your own software makes total sense. I mean Shopify has so many employees now. Yeah. that journey uh career journey is super personal. And you know, if we're if we're implementing software from that applies to a hundred different companies, it's not going to be 100% aligned with the mission of Shopify. Uh and so we we've learned that and we build we build really amazing stuff. all of that mastery cycle um tooling is for calibrations or for impact reviews is all homegrown and works on our own stack. That's amazing. So, let's talk about let's wrap up this section by talking about like how do you find people who actually give a or like how do you reward people who actually care right about the craft and the product? I think it was a recent example from uh like Julia or something like um you talk about that. Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean, we g rewarding people that give a Like the concept of giving a is like I think super undervalued. This is something that Toby has really put uh put into my lexicon of like yeah, if you're able to give a find people that actually give a and put that concept or that like that drive of giving a into everything they do, then the outcomes are just going to be phenomenal. And it becomes a bit like a feedback loop where as we try to recruit and bring the best crafters into the company that actually give a they want to work with people who inspire them and also give a And so it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. And so how do you know I mean there's two things I referenced earlier that as a software company, we know the products that people are working on. We know the contributions that they make. that is observable and that's a really good signal about how good someone is. The quality of their output is is measurable and observable. That's incredibly powerful. But then there's the second part which is like is more about other people being inspired and wanting to work with you. And so we ask crafters to calibrate against against other people who have who they have worked with to say who are the people that give a the most that put the most into these products and like you know who would if you were starting something today who would you want to work with? Who is the best skill set in the following scope requirement of their job or of their craft? Right? And so we ask people and those signals together of the more quantitative as well as the um things that like are harder to quantify but incredibly important. Those things together become like the inputs to where you put your rewards and the status and things that you unlock for people. Um, and I think all that comes down, you referenced that cool example um of Julia, but it all comes down to like people who have real agency and are high agency individuals who over cycles, hone their judgment, spend, and are able to have like incredibly great output. Uh this was a cool example of like we don't really have internships that are non engineering or non R& D at Shopify, but this you know this student Julia we should link the her sort of tweet storm but she basically said well I'm sort of the perfect fit for Shopify. Why wouldn't and she's incredibly high agency person. Why

wouldn't you make room for one more? And of course, within 20 hours, we had interviewed, assessed, and hired her because that she gave a She really gave a about everything she was doing about her journey. And we think she's going to be able to turn that into a love for the mission and real value for our merchant. Yeah. She made a marketing video, right, talking about how she'll add value to Shopify. Yeah, exactly. And I think I got this uh I think you sent me this internal Slack for Toby. I think he was actually on vacation and he shared this uh I got a message and our head of marketing as well saying hey this is a pretty cool uh application and you know basically Toby saying I've got such a soft spot for high agency people and we were like yeah we can make room for one more here for sure and really quickly stepped into gear and you know that inspires other people in the company and it creates, you know, more opportunity for people to actually step up. So, Julie is joining soon. I can't wait, dude. For some reason, it keeps happening to Shopify, man. Like, on on Twitter, like I always see like these people paying Toby or like I think it's because Shopify is building for all entrepreneurs. It just keeps happening on Shopify versus other Yeah. Exactly. the whole goal is to like reduce the complexity for people to you know choose entrepreneurship as a path that but it's also like how you do anything is how you do everything. He'll be super engaged with the community because it's his community. The entrepreneurship community is his right and and so being engaged and actually talking to people all the time is uh is you know it's not a chore. It's what we do. It's super cool. And I'll think it applies to existing employees too. Like I like one of my pet peeves when someone says like, you know, oh, I don't own this or like that's not my problem. Like that's like what Right. Well, I mean, one of our values at JobFi is is, you know, act like an owner. It doesn't matter what your uh what your role is. You got to act like an owner. You're part of the company. You've got, you know, you maybe in your wallet you chose equity. You're an owner in this company. You you've got to act like it. Yeah. And it probably leads to a bunch of like candid conversations about company priorities and stuff, right? It's like people are more authentic. Yeah, totally. People are definitely themselves at this company. Okay, great. All right. Well, let's talk about um we talk about AI a lot with other uh leaders recently and you know, Toby released a map memo uh saying like you know AI usage is baseline expectation at Shopify, right? And I think that's a great uh memo from the CEO, but like how do you actually put that into practice? make sure people use this stuff? Yeah, I mean I won't I won't speak for Toby. I think that memo caught fire because it speaks for itself. It's pretty phenomenal. Uh but I I will say how it's sort of inspiring me and my team for sure. Uh what it really did is shift the responsibility from onto every individual to get better to grow and to get better, right? And setting the baseline expectation that sort of AI fluency or reflexively reaching for AI is sort of that baseline expectation is basically what it did. I mean, we're

super fortunate to have a founder who is a first mover on everything and always tinkering with the latest tools, but and so he's been building in the open and sort of tinkering in the open trying to inspire the whole company and it's been working. Um, but we're a couple years into this sort of AI revolution and you know, it's time to start holding everybody um to the responsibility of getting better and growing and starting to reach for these tools. Um, one of my favorite parts about the memo is actually the reflexive language because you can build reflexes. You can build that muscle memory just by using and by tinkering. Um, and so, uh, you know, I think what we've been what we've seen at the company is like who's benefiting the most from this memo? It's Shopify itself because everybody has shifted to start uh to start taking that responsibility themselves. Instead of it uh instead of that just being sort of a build in the open and um and inspiration approach, it's now on all of us to get better every day and start using these tools. And have you like um like I can tell from experience like um there's a few barriers, right? Like one barrier is like a lot of the tools are not approved internally. That's one barrier. Another barrier is like people just don't know how to use this stuff. So like do you have like internal education programs or like try to speed unlock a bunch of these tools? like how do you Yeah, I mean barrier the barrier to access for AI tools at Shopify is zero because we've built those directly in to our development environments and not even just for engineers but for everyone at the company. I mean some examples here is that we're uh you know we've we have our own sort of uh chat surface that uh that we've wrapped every model that's available. You can be playing with those uh and you know cursor and co-pilot are and claude are just like natively embedded here. And so what we see is just like people start building that into their flow when you it's just like Shopify when you reduce the barrier to entry or remove the complexity from trying people just build it into their habits and you start to build a reflex for immediately or you know immediately reaching for those tools. Um I mean it's certainly paying off like we see almost twothirds of our engineers using cursor every single day. Um yeah, and so it's when it's natively built in and there's a responsibility that it's on you as an individual to grow and start using these like you just see explosive use and do you also have like uh training or education or like you just like slack channels people are sharing tips. Yeah. it. Shopplay is like it's interesting when you say training or education that sounds pretty corpo to me like Shopify is more of a learners environment and so what I immediately went to well almost every team has like the um the sort of demo or let me build in the open uh type of channel for AI. So um one of the teams that I work with is our recruiting team and you know we've got recruiting AI right where people are just sharing everything that they did in that day or um or trying to share the latest tools as they're tinkering with it. That happens across the board. Um, and so it's much more of a like, you know, build in the open, try things out, and share, do things, tell people as opposed to, hey, here's your mandatory, you know, professional development two hours over lunch and make sure you check that box. Um, and so there's that like people are really spending the time to share what they're doing in open public, you know, Slack channels and that sort of thing. Um, but they're also like there's also sort of it's less like here's a great example. We have like a library of prompts. We have an internal wiki that we use and we've got this library of great prompts to use or agents that folks have built that help with, you

know, a specific task or make sure you are speaking in a specific tone. And so all of these things are shared like nobody's building in secret or in hiding here. All of that stuff is shared. So the collective memory or the collective uh knowledge of this company when it's a learner's company as well is just like rises all boats. Yeah, that makes sense. And like the fact of the matter is like once you use this stuff well like it helps you do your job like so why would you not use it? Exactly. Ex. That's exactly right. Um okay let's talk about uh the low distraction uh internal work OS that you're building. Right. So, you showed me the performance management stuff, but like how else are you guys eliminating distraction? Uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we're trying to do at Shopify is have the lowest distraction, most meaningful careers, uh, possible where we give crafters the ability to focus or to cook, focus on what we hired them to do, which is get better at their craft, make an impact on the mission of our merchants. And so anything that's in the way of that, we try to get it out of the way. Um, and so, uh, one way that that, uh, HR is doing that is really is this sort of concept of of patch notes or really welltimed releases of changes or improvements to the gameplay that is having a career at Shopify. And so that means as little as possible, like as I said, HR kind of sucks. Like get out of the way. just absolutely allow crafters to do the work and only distract when absolutely necessary. Um but then taking a step higher, uh we we've also built this we've also built um an operating system for the company that allows us to remove more distraction from sort of you know strategic planning or talent planning and all these things that really slow a company down. You referenced bureaucracy earlier. What we do is sort of encode a foundational set of rules or principles around what it means to be the world's best commerce software company. And you know that's principles about Shopify's mission, about the size, the shape, what it actually means to be a crafter's company. Um, and making sure that all of the work that the company do does is aligned with that mission and with Toby's vision of how the company should run. Um and then that OS is basically implemented much more like much more in a way uh um or sort of how in engineering thinking as opposed to HR or operations right that means that you can model the company you have version controlled uh it it's version controlled it's testable and reduces the need for the sort of um political planning processes and change management required. Um, so all of that together with our operating system as well as sort of the mastery system that I just talked to you about ideally allows people to do for as much time as much of their creative time in a day allows them to focus on building for our merchants. So like uh let's take some examples right like strategic planning like takes up a lot of time you know writing strategy documents reviewing of like different levels of mana man management uh yeah you have a system to streamline that or yeah what we do is start with the mission from there there's a set of themes that our uh founder Toby works on with his top product and engineering and R& D folks And that sort of that gets set goes into our internal wiki and every single and then we have built our own as I said sort of GSD or get done system where every new project needs to be attached to those themes. You need to be able to show how what you're working on is ladders up to the themes and the mission of the company. Um, and so that's how it all starts from there as opposed to starting from the position of I need the following number of dollars or people in order to do something. Instead, it always starts from the mission and the themes and where the product needs to go and then the rest sort of happens as a result. when you make the most important thing the most important thing, the rest happens. And our OS and sort of low distraction mode HR helps make that happen with as little change management as possible. So basically like Toby says the themes and then there's a bottoms up approach to match the themes and you kind of meet in the middle somewhere. That's kind of Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And you know because uh there's only so many things you can focus on, we only focus on the things that are attached to that mission and those seams. Makes sense. Okay. So um just to wrap up this conversation like you know Shopify is like what an 8,000 plus person company right that is a big company is trying to be a crafter's paradise which I think is amazing because like the you usually like the larger a company gets the crappier it gets to work so like but like you know based on discussion like what what's your best three pieces of advice to for like teams or companies to kind of stay focused on the craft um and build his culture. Yeah. I talked about it a little earlier, but mission. Shopify has the easiest mission to fall in love with. And what I find is people the longer people are at the company, the more in love with that mission and more dedicated to it they are. We're trying to make commerce better for everyone and make entrepreneurship more common. that is so important to the world and it means that everyone at the company gets to focus on that uh instead of other things. So one is mission focus and everything that I talked about today is aimed at making sure as much of our time and energy is focused on the mission as possible and not the other Um, okay. What's another one? I think going back to the corporate ladder, what we've done is reject the traditional or the orthodox corporate ladder, saying you have to go into some adjacency in order to get the status, the responsibility, the rewards of a manager. Instead, we've gone with the unobvious but absolutely correct thing, which is to say craftsmanship matters and def we will prioritize being a crafter's company. Um other people the best want to work with the best. That means you need uh at your core craftsmanship and to reward those crafters so that other crafters want to come and work with them. Uh the last one is about distractions.

We talked about this a bit, but get out of people's way so that they can focus on what's most important, which is building and shipping code for our merchants. Get ev everything else out of the way as much as possible. Uh so that there's only so many hours in a day. You want people to be able to be focused on that mission and on shipping for merchants. Um, maybe a bonus is find people that give a That's the last. The people who give a will uh probably DM Toby on Shopify. That's the way to do it. Yeah, exactly. Maybe it's like a result of those other things. Yeah, they will find us because the product is magical. The environment is awesome. The mission is super important. I love it, Sam. I love um you know I never worked at Shopify but I love how uh the values and the you know how opinionated uh everyone is about some of this stuff which I totally agree with and hopefully you can change the culture for the rest of uh tech too you know it's what we're trying to do and Peter it only takes you know potentially 20 hours so if you want to join we're here yeah maybe I can have another job after exactly yeah know thank you so much Peter yeah okay