AI Does 90% of My Work Now as a Product Leader | Yana Welinder (Kraftful)

at this point I'm not actually doing anything without AI the first thing that happens is I have social posts going out on like LinkedIn Twitter thread blue sky and all of those are primarily written on Sunday afternoons using Ai and there's some aspects I usually write them in chat GP see either I have kind of a general idea that I prompt with or I rewrite them but there's literally no post that goes out that hasn't been somehow written with AI so that's one I then had a customer call I transcribe all calls actually usually with the zoom transcription and I sync them to craft to get analyzed yeah so kind of those are a few I jumped in and did some emails which I always write with AI as well I jumped into our support channel for a little bit which actually is not AI generated just we usually just chat there because I want to usually catch books and find out what they're struggling with and ask them followup questions but I then what we talked about then sakes with AI to craft one get analyzed so there's always some component of AI even if kind of not everything is AI in theable cool welcome everyone my guest today is Jana is the founder of craftall an AI assistant platform that helps product teams build products by extracting insights from user reviews surveys and more and you know Yana is also a power user of open ai's latest models and features including deep research and operator so really excited to have her do a live demo of for top Ai workflows and discuss the joys and frustrations of building AI products welcome Lana thanks so much for having me excited to chat about these

topics so let's actually demo some of the stuff right so like I I originally paid the 200 bucks to use chat GP Pro and uh you know I haven't a chance to try operator yet by play on deep research but yeah do you want to show us operator first or deep research first I love to learn from let's do operator first just because I that's what launched first so maybe yeah just a yeah so let me show you some ways I use these tools yeah so what I've done and you can kind of see it here I sent operator off to cfle which is uh my product and then I have it select all the different sources of feedback this is for slack I have it look at the feedback that came in about notifications and then it adds that to the road map so now it's in the going to put it in the notifications projects it does a little bit of clicking around because that's what operator does sometimes then it goes to the notifications projects it first filters now next later just looking at the now item has all of these items here now it's going to create a PRD with all the insights about notifications and then it goes and reads all of those mentions it then creates a user story with a item here and then it's clicks around a little bit to find its way then it takes the user story it syncs it to linear so it takes the right project to put it into and then it's going to once it sinks it there it becomes a ticket in linear you can kind of see this is what operator does it kind of tries to find its way around sometimes it like clicks around multiple times which is interesting because it's trying to kind of understand how this works and then it needs to assign into linear to stinct the sticket it's now going to try to assign it to an engineer but this is another one where it's like starting to have a look at these other things now it the signs the t engineer and then it clicks back to see where all of the insights came from so that's kind of that's the whole flow where it takes all the feedback from these different sources about slack creates a PRD creates a user story it thinks the user story to linear and then assigns it U to engineer and linear so sort of like a end to endend escape this episode is brought to you by merge product leaders cringe when they hear the word integration they're not fun for you to build launch or maintain and they probably aren't what as to product work in the first place luckily the folks at merge are obsessed with Integrations they build a single API that helps SAS companies launch over 200 Integrations in weeks not quarters think of merge like plaid but for B2B SAS companies like ramp dra and electric use merge to access their customers accounting data for Bill reconciliation file storage data for searchable databases and hris data for autoprovisioning Access for their customers employee EMP es if you need AI ready data for your SAS product then merge is also the fastest way to get it so if you want to solve your company's integration dilemma once and for all book a meeting and receive a $50 Amazon gift card when you attend that's merch dodev petery now back to the episode wow what was your prompt to make this work my yeah so my prompt was there's I kind of I actually posted it in Twitter at some point it has like 10 different steps that's basically go to craft B select all the items about notifications or actually select all the different sources of feedback first and select all the items about notifications then move those notifications items over to your notifications project there write the PRD look at the PRD because otherwise it wouldn't look at it and then write a user story about the top notifications item and then sync the user story to linear so step by step do these things that's me you didn't give it any like besid or anything right like URLs you just kind of I did give it yeah you give okay got it can also figure it out but that it's sort of annoying once to start searching for things so so you just like wake up every morning and run this and then have you using this repeatedly or this flow I have been using repeatedly not exactly like this but in different configurations because one thing that I discovered after doing this is a few different things one is um this is great for creating product demos so whenever we launch a new feature I just have operator recorded I don't record feature launch demos anymore the other reason I do this is to see just from like a usability perspective if it clicks around too much I kind of have a sense that oh here's something we may want to and then I sort of you know I there's kind of this other we did a bug bash earlier today where the whole team sat in a meeting and we were just like looking for bugs and actually had operators sit next to me and also click around and CRA and do different things this is not something I do every day but like I was like I'm just going to be looking for bugs let me have it look for bugs too that's actually a really good point I didn't think about using this thing for user usability testing or user research like I guess most of the cases like trying to book a restaurant or something but it sounds like actually the workplace use cases are even more rant right yeah CU like the more ambiguous the task the more you get like you don't want to give it too much instructions and then you'll get a sense for like could it figure out on boarding right like was it harder or not got it in a workplace I mean maybe not your company but in a lot of companies there's a lot of like really mundane tasks that you have to do like I actually heard three of this a couple days ago like this product will be perfect for like watching corporate training videos right like the ones where like you have to actually sit on your screen like watch for watch the videos and like click something click next yeah I used I think I shared this with you which is I use it to look for interesting content on social media that I may want to read and engage with so that's another one where I like give it a general sense of like here's the topics that I'm interested in now go log into my LinkedIn log into I also use it on ycy Bookface log into YC Bookface and then look for posts about H gml topics I want to look at those tell me when you find interesting ones how does it tell you though like it just stops or how does it it's yeah it stops and it pings me in the browser you get a notification yeah so you've all soured the you've all sourced the Doom SC into the computer yes which is wonderful yeah that's great yeah so yeah I definitely think I should give us a try poke around with it

so another thing that I launched is obviously deep research and a lot of people online saying like this is like the standout feature of the subscription I'm curious to hear how you use it too yeah I use it quite a lot I would say that I actually get much more usage out of the operator that I get out of deep research which is sort of interesting but that I would kind of disagree with that General opinion online but I do think it's really useful so some examples that I pulled up here from the things I used it for recently so we're looking for this kind of API for to create an agent in our app so I described that use case I'm looking for an API that I could use to build an agent inside my app the agents would allow my customers to specify a URL and login credentials and have the agent collect content from that URL and essentially kind of analyze user feedback and craft for from things that we currently don't have Integrations for and then I asked as it to like put together a table with the name of the company link to the website product launch dates I just want to kind of know how long has this thing been around for notable customers use cases and then I if they're if they are a YC company we get a YC discount so I want to know that and that came back and it was yeah great questions but actually have you thought about like do you is it do you want it to be specifically focused on credential like things that require credentials and like authenticated websites or can be anything and then it asked me for like then do I care about any kind of like compliance things and things like that so then I was like oh yeah that those are great things to include to and pricing and is itself hosted versus T so let's include that then went off it researched for eight minutes so not that long and then it came back with like a really good overview of all the different companies mostly YC companies that provide something like this and it gave me all the content not in a table I think it decided that there was too much information to put in a table so formatted it this way I had a look at this which I thought was great and then I was like well but there's two other companies that I know of that it didn't include here probably because they're too recent so then I asked it a follow-up question which is go and research these two companies in particular and then it had more follow-up questions for me in terms of like what I would be interested in which I responded to and then it went off and researched for six minutes and gave me this really good overview of these two agent companies that would have taken me a really long time to research all of this like if I did it myself right but this is like literally in less than 50 minutes I have everything I need just really cool yeah it's really good for yeah it's obviously very good for market and compare research or like you know customer research brilliant yeah and I've also found it pretty useful to like understand some technical Concepts like I was trying to research different databases and how they work and it was pretty good how about have you had any like personal professional use cases with it yeah Yes actually used this for a ton of different things one really

interesting use case I got some medication recently and it came with this like giant label on from Walgreens saying you're gonna get cancer from this I think I I've ever seen anything like this where it was like you didn't even have to read like all the like the small print it was like really big wow and so sort of like this is a little bit concerning let me research this had a like a prompt asking about this versus I did a little bit of background research to understand like what's some other similar type of medication and I had it go and do research and it turned out to be actually exactly opposite this medication does not this academic research showing that cause cancer okay there's another one that does which I'd be curious if they have a similar motus on the label but it was kind of comical but it was just like such a big deal and then I went in and I got it went in and summarized all of the kind of like academic research came back with like actual citations to papers and what they concluded in a couple of minutes and I could go that feeling okay about myself I haven't used 03 for this stuff but like or deep research but yeah I asked like chat medical questions all the time but for better for worse yeah I mean for better right because like as long as you get links back to academic research then you can kind of know right I think the for anyone who's had kids and his female they may have read expecting better which is kind of this book that goes through like all of the academic research on on pregnancy and tells you like half the things that doctors tell you are like actually unnecessary or contradicted by research and then it's kind of like that but like for any use case that you may want right like it's wonderful that you can get all the information and you can kind of decide for yourself which is great like yeah it's doctors don't have to be The Gatekeepers I mean it's also like so hard to gain in touch with a doctor like you had to make an appointment you way around exactly yeah I could have like avoided a lot like when I had my kids like I used to argue with my wife about like you know breastfeeding versus just like feeding from using supplements and stuff yeah and like you know if I had this tools I could just do my own research or you know what I prob just listen to my wife but you know you could show the research to her and then you don't have to do anything right like she probably also be convinced and I also find it super useful for I'm trying to replace my

windows in my house and like I got a bunch of quotes right and uh some like long PDFs with like a bunch of details I don't know it's kind of bad actually because it made me like really lazy so like it's not just reading through all the PDFs I just like upload all them to chat jbtm be like hey which one's G me the best price what was the best value which window know the best I did that with any kind of like contract or anything but for quotes now you can use operator to go and get those quotes for you can have it reach out to all these different like company providers yeah get that yeah yeah save even more time yeah I should try some of these kids who were like yeah she had to spend money or make a reservation let Us's see what kind of dinner reservation it makes for me yeah apparently I've been having a lot of Date Night reservations that were all booked by operator in like the past year really something like that yeah wow that the that made yeah so I can tell you they're good we we've had some nice meals he shouldn't have told you that obvious take credit for everything yeah I kind of guess that's what happened the moment I got I started playing with operator I was like I wonder we've had some really good date nights recently I wonder if this I asked him and he was like yeah that was operator that's funny that's plenty actually let's talk about your husband real quick so like uh for people who don't know like who is your husband like you know and where does it work yeah yes so my husband is Peter wellinger he's BPF product at openi so he's been working on the operator in chpt and all the other cool products that I get to play with now and build on top of which is even more fun so is do you have to about AI all the time because you're an AI founder and like all time at home yeah I mean definitely like for a lot of folks that have woken up to Ai and AI now and for us that's been like our dinner conversation for like 20 plus years you know it's like and still continues being but it's a lot of fun to be kind of interested in the same stuff and uh I think we talk about this like personally but like how are you is your kid using AI or how are you getting kid to use AI yeah so you know like we're both Builders and so I think we used AI very much to kind of teach our kids to think about how he could build and things in the future and so kind of from the kind of the earliest memory I have of this is back when they were first building Dolly and I had kind of like early access to Dolly and like kid was I think he was like two or three at the time we sat down and Illustrated a book together and like by then he had you know he's listen to like AI generat Bedtime Stories and things like that but there's like this moment when it was like very eye opening to him that I give the computer a prompt and it starts creating things for me and I can now suddenly like make things I can make a book I can make the thing that like I would have seen but I can make it through the yeah and I think that was like that was a big moment for him and then a year later when they launched or maybe it was I don't know two years later when they launched uh the GPT store he saw me build a GPT and he was like cool I want to do that too so he built this Pokemon GPT which now is like I think the most used Pokemon GPT in the GPT store and that's cool for him because it's sort of you know it's this moment of just like creating something for other people and then seeing other people interact with it like just this thrill of knowing okay a thousand people have used the app I built right like it's very easy to build the GPT but still there's this like thrill that he I didn't get that at that age right like but I think it is really powerful as a kid yeah I mean making my kid loves using do to make images she keeps making like rainbow unicorns and stuff and then we've been making we' making like videos now we've been using Google's vo to make videos that was pretty fun yeah we've done a few of those too that's yeah that's so much fun yeah it's like and then she brags to her friends as she makes all his videos and then they're like what yeah my son does that too last night we were looking at so Infinity AI there's video generation tool that you can then you can turn yourself into cartoon character and make videos with that character and so we're gonna we were looking at it together last night and he was like can we make a video like I need to like prep for launch but like this weekend we will Infinity AI is always called yeah infinite AI it's a YC company you probably have like what are some like really underrated tools that use AI tools other than like obviously chbt or even CRA what is Ming tools I don't know if they're underrated I mean I think lovable I love that and I'm sort of curious that they going to replace figma for me now that they've added these like visual editing tools I am a huge figma user otherwise this kind of video generation tools the ones that you can create like actual product demos with so I mean haen has gotten much better but also like infinity and organ otherwise you know I've played with pretty much every whenever like any tool comes out around like image generation or video generation iuse and music generation I will always play with them but I don't feel like they're lasting for me I don't have necessarily like a good use case to use them on a daily basis and so then they usually just like whenever something you comes out I try it out just to like have it in like my mental database okay I have a sense of like state-ofthe-art or kind of or how it compares to the state-ofthe-art and then I just move on to the next tools I don't necessarily kind of use them repeatedly but I used them all that is actually the

key problem I think with AI startups right because like a lot of them have a novity effect of like this is super cool and then you don't come back like probably have a big retention problem yeah yes I think so but the thing is I think for some of like for example hijan when I went to play with it today to create this video what I realized was that I haven't used it since early 2022 when they launched so that so I had a video sitting in there that I had recorded back then which is when I tried it out the first time and then I was like this is not good enough I can't actually do anything with it so but now I came back right so I think for some of them they do have immediate retention problems but a lot of these folks then hopefully eventually come back and have more well I don't know if coming back after a year is enough for uh coming back after three years yeah sad you came back yeah let's talk about CLE let's talk about maybe we can talk a little about what CLE is and you know what it does yeah so CLE takes user feedback from all the different sources so that can be internal sources like support tickets call transcripts slack or external data like Reddit comments or posts on X Twitter or Amazon reviews app reviews it's then crunches all that data extracts feature request complaints other kinds of product insights and then turns those into prds user stories that you can then s to linear like in the demo or to J to become a ticket that really kind of takes all the tedious tasks out of product work so you can really just see what's important and focus on product craft and product strategy which I think is really exciting yeah so what I've been doing with my PRS I mean not that anyone to read P anymore but what I've been doing is that instead of like writing by myself I I basically post a some sort of a prompt basically in my community like my customer Community I'm like hey you know I'm thinking about buing this what do you think about it or like you know do you have a problem like what problem are trying to solve around this and there's like a bunch of feedback that come there and then you know don't tell my customers but I don't really a lot of times I don't actually read every piece of feedback I just copy it into Ai and try to get hey totally can you summarize it or like can you actually make a PRD based on this like template that I have so I mean we kind of do that but by default right because we are taking all of the we take all of the insights we collect all those insights for you by default but it's much broader right because it's going to be when people are actually using your product and when they've had a pain points about a similar thing we will have taken all of those instances and then our PRD reader goes out and reads like hundreds of comments from different like call transcripts support tickets all of these survey data and then you can yes you can put in them your general like here write the PRD in this manner you can do that in the prom piece but the collection piece happens automatically so you kind of don't have to you don't have to ask for new inut which you could use our survey product to go and collect I don't to keep copy and pasting everything basically no you can't no you kind of have to use you have to use craple as the conduit for data collection and it is more so that's more of a agent than cop right because it's like collect all data for you automatically totally exactly got it and it automatically analyzes it for you turns it into prds and user stories right so there's like all of these different steps you can come in and and press the button and say this one turn this one into user story and then raffle does all of that wait but ban so

then what does the PM actually do like relax on the sofa no I'm just joking I do think that you know what I this is my own personal pinpoint right like I used to be a PM before starting crawle I've uh been at various tech companies everything from like a PM number two at a like a fast growing unicorn to actually leading products millions of users and having to being kind of way past like product Market fit and I think that the thing that I always wish that like me and my PMS could do is to just sense what every what we know about the world and our usage right because you can also use craftform for competitive research and then be able to like think about it deeply right because then you can do things with that data like if you don't have to spend the time figuring out the data and the data is like there in front of you because I think one piece one thing about a lot of PMS is that they don't spend the time thinking about all or trying to find it because they just don't so they just don't have access to it at all right like this by default makees sure that the all the insights are at the core of the development process and then you can spend the time figuring out what like what do we know based on this what's the best way to solve the problem and is there maybe something else that we don't know that we should go out and try to like collect more data and then create a survey and gather more insights so there's sort of you know it just makes sure that you spend more time thinking deeply about what the problem is as opposed to just thinking deeply well I mean yeah there's like a lot of B busy work to gather a syze that they you know that craft helps with and also a lot of busy work to produce these like internal artifacts right like these tickets and all stuff yeah I yeah and the other thing I would say is that there's also a lot of busy work in do having a bunch of back and forth communication right if you can take all the insights have it write a hster story about all those insights think that as a ticket and have all of the insights attached to the ticket because that's what they are then the engineers has access to the why and then they have access to all of the related feedback so that if they have some optionality that came up during the process they don't have to like Unown the PM have a bunch of back and forth like maybe the PM needs to go out and do more research or like find the researcher whatever right like this is just make sure that like Engineers have access to everything they don't they technically don't have to like bug the PM either yeah got it yeah that Mak sense that make sense like you've been add it for a couple years right so like can you share some stats about you know how many customers you have or how f is growing now yeah yes so we that we Ser of over 50,000 product teams and product Builders we've analyzed many millions of pieces of feedback for folks which we translate into many hundred hundreds of thousands of hours Sav but yeah it's been a wild ride which we are about to hit two years in in about a week and why have me some kind

of like really great moments and also you know like a Founder Journey has a lot of up ups and downs right can you share some stories yeah us totally so today we actually had an a high point for graffle we had we've had for a few weeks we've had exceptionally High Mr growth which is like even by like YC we're YC company and company standards we're in what YC considers to be exceptionally high growth which has been really cool to see and then this week we broke a record in our own exceptionally high growth and have even more exceptionally High Mr growth so that was just like a very cool moment for the team cool way to celebrate Valentine's Day but you know I think we've had a bunch of we have low moments One Low moment was when we first launched and that was really exciting kind of early 2023 and then we had so much adoption that it broke our product and we kind of had this happen repeatedly so it would kind of break we would break past every like API rate limit and things like that and so for most part this like exciting or just like we break through an API rate limit I would have to like hunt down the companies like their actual usually would try to get the founders to get like really big rate limit extensions that I needed like in like half an hour and that was all cool until suddenly we broke the absolute rate limit extend like reach limits of GPT 4 and we could not like the amount of data we were sending in for our customers to analyze was more than you could analyze with gp4 at the time and we could not get any more extensions that was like one of those moments where I was just like losing so much sleep I was it was actually really painful I could see like these Big Brand customers sign up and just I could see how long they were waiting for analysis right because we're like just had too much to like and we could not and some of them like would wait for days which is like normally to take minutes and it was just like really painful process we had to rebuild our entire architecture at that time using kind of less performant models and do lots of like fine-tuning rethink our entire pipeline do all kinds of different things and then eventually you know compute became more available and we could go back to using GPT 4 for all the things and kind of face changed rapidly but there was like this moment in time that was incredibly painful which you would think that it's actually like all great things but actually but it on the inside it was just terrible you want let your you w let your customers down right yeah and they were just like so disappointed they were like CRA full just like it's really slow I don't understand why it's so slow right we kind of kept debating do we tell them that there's too many of them like you know are they like yeah I think I mean people say like the model is become a commodity but like the model does really matter for like the quality of the product like that's still on top of it so yeah if the downgrade from like four to 3. 5 like that probably impacts the quality by a lot it was huge it was really like it was really impact we had to kind of change we had to create lots of additional steps in the process well our analysis is like a hundred different steps to get to from like One support ticket to feature request already as it is but we had to like add more steps and fine tune the model to do things to be like as close to gb4 as we could get and things like that but it's just really complicated how do you think about like

let's talk about like you know prompting Rag and fine tuning you know I'm just curious like as someone was building like a successful AI product like how much time you spend all this stuff like in some parts sometimes I'm just like uping the prompt again it kind of feels dumb but like it does have a big impact right so like I don't know how do you balance or like and also running EV valves which is like also very painful like how yeah it's all painful particularly when you have something like that pipeline that I described right like there's like a hundred steps which like not a 100 steps but there's a lot of steps and each step has a different prompt and each step uses a different model and then we're running evals whenever like a new model comes out we're running evals to see can this model can the new model do any of our steps better than the existing model we're using for that particular step can it do it better across few different things right like can it do better analysis can it do it faster can it do it cheaper right so s always looking at like different things so some things are like oh it's actually not better uh but it's cheaper or it's faster right so then you maybe then maybe we should invest in like doing the upgrade for this one so like do you have like a list of tips or like hard lessons that you learned building a products like is it like try to keep as simple as possible or like start with the prompt first before it getting more complicated like do you have any do have any tips someone who wants to build this stuff yeah I mean a ton right like it definitely starts with the prom first um I was recently thinking about this in particular that like when we design something we first start by designing it in like open ey playground right like it's not designed in Sigma it's designed you were designing what is going to be the experience thinking through all the different steps and then what the output of that we then know okay this is best represented as the word or a list like a longer sentence or a paragraph then the UI ends up being very different based off of that right so like always starting with from like what can the AI do to best solve the problem and then like how do we then design The Experience around that in the most compelling way so that's definitely it and then the other piece is you're always kind of looking at your options you're like okay if this if the AI can solve the problem what can I do can I like fine tune can I wait for the next model can I change the user experience right that's always the option right like we have different of experience like here we are waiting for the next model that's what we're doing we're and you can change the experience right because there's certain things where you can kind of uh make it clear that this is this can be edited or this can be changed right so that even if like the AI isn't perfect then you're giving the human control to make it perfect in their flow as long as because some things are like if you're saving someone a hundred hours if they have to invest a minute in making it perfect that's great right and so just thinking through what like what's the whole workflow and then how do I like how do I create a really good product around that workflow based on what models can do today that's pretty funny yeah it's not like at the old days where like you have a multi- quarter role map now maybe you have like

a bunch of initiatives and like some are waiting for the model to be better some are like yeah I'm actually curious how do you even do role Maps or no I mean we do the we do we use the like our projects page right the one that we kind of saw in the operator and that does have like initiative that are filtered by like now next later but it is in then we kind of have some that are like generated by what we know that's outside of what we've learned from inside and then we like run surveys to fill out those but yeah I mean that's our road map but I think I like not in a dock somewhere like the time Horizon is like maybe like three months or something like a quarter like the planning it's probably I mean in our it's probably six months this the time Horizon there are some things that where people really want this and there's enough people who really want this that are impactful enough that we want to build this but like it doesn't also doesn't make sense for us in like the in the next few months or we know like certain you know like certain new models have launched and they can they suddenly can unlock really exciting things we want to do these things first before we get to those other of things you know yeah mention to another founder it's great to have like you know like open ey these companies spending billion of dollars basically making your product better right yes it's wonderful that's kind of nice you know it it's incredible like you sort of constantly I don't know I'm like I people telling me that they're so ad daunted by the fact that there's so many like new launches all the time like are you kidding me like I'm just like whenever something new launches I'm like what is it GNA do for my product today you know yeah like a onine change right it's like not too hard it's Chang the mod yeah so yeah I mean it's not because we have to run evil for all of it the way like um so it's actually very complicated but still it's always worth it yeah part of me I've been trying to build air PR too and like part of me is kind of annoyed like at how manual or you know iterative some of the stuff is and you can never feel like as sure as you can with a determin pro like in term you make the UI Pixel Perfect and you're like okay this is a good experience yeah I know this stuff is very hard to say for C certain right that everyone's going to get a good experience so do you have any like closing words of advice after tell about this stuff yeah I think actually to your point about was it a good experience or not I would say that the kind of the thing that I found the most kind of interesting is that a lot of experiences AI experiences today are built like a chat with like a chat interface and with a chat interface it's really hard to know is it a good experience or not because it really all depends on whatever the person ends up putting into the chat and we have an like an Ask AI part of our product so it's like a very small part of our product we do have that and then most of the product is you mentioned kind of more of an agent that just goes out and does these things for you and those pieces are actually incredibly like they while they're not built on a deterministic Model they're still because of the way they're built you have a very good sense of how they're going to operates they feed in a bunch of insights but they you've chunked it into small pieces to the point where you have a really good control over and then you run eval you have really good control over it and so I think that my biggest would be that it's I understand why folks are building like chat interfaces because they look at chat GPT as like the fastest growing product in the history of products they want to have that success but there is a whole different other way to build AI products in like new and different ways that I think is you know as a person building with the eye I would really encourage folks to look into more that's a really good point yeah because like chat is like a very horizontal product like you said it's depends on what the prompt is but like you want to be 10x better at chatfic use case right that's like yes less horizontal yeah yeah and you can do that and it makes sense like for general purpose product it makes sense to have a chat interface but for a very specific product that may not be the best solution but lots and lots most AI products out there are kind of like a chat interface which is not what they should be in my opinion okay that's a very good point yeah so so where can people find out about craft or give a try or fall follow your yeah so you can kind of follow me I'm most active on Twitter soana tweets and craft is just craft. com with a K so feel free to check it out we do have a free plan that folks can explore with awesome y yeah thanks so much for time it's been great to chat with you through the past year and see you grow the company it's been awesome thank you thanks so much for having me I really enjoyed it all right