Inside Suno, the AI Music App You Won't Be Able to Stop Listening To | Mikey Shulman (Suno)

if we don't build the good future of AI and music someone else will build the bad future of AI and music what is I can think of a lot like someone who's going to come and make some AI program that just lets me make an infinite number of songs that sound like my favorite artist and my favorite artist isn't going to see a dime we don't do that but somebody else might another I think bad version of the future of AI and music is one where like hyper personalization where I just log in and I stream music that sounds amazing to me and nobody else and it is very antisocial and very solitary it's like basically the equivalent of musical pornography this is not the future of AI that I want to build for music and you know what I tell everyone is like let's make the good future is that there are a billion people way more into music than they otherwise would have been basically I challenge somebody to explain to me how a billion people weigh more into music than they could have been is somehow bad for artists cool well welcome everyone my guest today is Mikey showman the CEO and co-founder ofoo can generate amazing songs with lyrics Just from text prompts and you know it has brought so much joy to me and my family so really excited to chat with Mikey about howso Works how the suo team builds AI products and how AI will change the music industry welcome Mikey uh awesome I'm really excited to be here yeah so why don't we start with a little bit about your background and how you came about starting sunno yeah I guess I have a little bit of a securious route to doing this I've been playing music uh since I'm 4 years old played a lot of piano growing up and then played mostly bass in a bunch of bands in high school and college but I actually left music uh a little bit after college went to go do a degree in physics and then went to another AI company after that and it's like a beautiful and funny accident how we ended up starting sunno you know the founders of the company we were all at a different AI company called Keno which is machine learning for financial services and we're doing a lot of text a lot of NLP and we basically we did one audio project it is the least sexy audio project that you can imagine it just learning to automate the transcription of earnings calls and we just had this realization that like wow sound is so much more interesting than text and also so far behind text and yes we you know we all happen to be musicians in fact we used to have Jam sessions in one of my co-founders basements to blow off steam after work but it took this like very circuitous route to get us to realize that like Wow audio doesn't have to be so far behind and so we left and we started an audio company and the truth is it took a couple months before we realized that like music is just is so special and so fun and despite lots of people telling us that it is not a straightforward route forward you know it's not a straightforward company to start speech is really big we couldn't help ourselves and so we started a music company yeah and I mean it's very interesting right because like speech you can kind of tell if it's correct or not but music is kind of like about your taste right it's kind of hard to think about what is actually correct or not in music yeah that's exactly right and I think that is something that I unfortunately people often get wrong about music which is that it's too easy to look at the world of text open Ai and anthropic and all the hyperscalers who are just trying to do better on benchmarks get the objective right answer most of this is done through scale at this point and music is not an objective thing like that it's not get the right answer on the it's far more taste based it's far more subjective and scale is not the only thing that solves that and so it's a very different world it's very fun world but not all the same techniques apply so can you maybe give

us the explain like a five version of how kind of music based models or LMS actually work you know on text they try to predict the next word but for music like how does that actually work you know it's surprisingly similar you know we've made no secret we what we do is just Transformers and there's so much great open- source stuff that made it a lot easier to start this company honestly to build in scale Transformers and our whole Edge I guess is just figuring out the right way to tokenize audio you know so it's somewhat obvious in text it's a word or they're different tokenization schemes but to First approximation their words and for us it's just a little bit of audio and it is totally unclear how you should do that if you think about it from first principles audio is not discreet like words it's a continuous signal it is also sampled at you know approximately 50,000 times per second and so you know a one minute chunk of audio has way too many tokens and so you have to work hard to basically both discretize the signal and also down sample it quite significantly without being lossy so you can think this is basically like a codec like MP3 will kind of Squish audio down what we do is very similar and at the end you end up with some discrete representation for a little bit of audio the model doesn't know that there are instruments it 12 tones there's even vocals and background it just knows that there's sound and by teaching the model to predict the next little bit of sound just like it works in text out pops something that is kind of capable of producing arbitrary sound or arbitrary music in our case wow so okay so it's kind of like given like the 30 second so far let's produce like a few more seconds of sound exactly and let's kind of take a step back let's talk about like your vision for the company right like what if suo is a wild success like what would the war look like or what are you trying to achieve at the end of the day yeah you know it's funny music has incredible Market penetration in some sense if you will it is part of every culture it's part of every language it is as I get older I realize more just how innate and kind of part of our DNA music is and I think you know humans really evolved to resonate strongly with music and so I don't think we're necessarily trying to bring music to more people or even necessarily try to get them to do music for more hours of the day people are listening to music in the background a lot but I think that music is just undervalued to most people and we are trying to make music more valuable to a lot of people like a billion people and I think that while background listening is fine it's not engaging it's not a rich experience it's not interactive it's not really social you're not doing it with your friends and when I think about what music is for me and what it should be it's all of those things it is fun it is a rich experience it's fun by yourself but it's more fun with your friends it's very creative you have fruits of your labor and so you know in that light it's a little bit like a video game and I think that if we can bring the joys of all of the other parts of music that are not available to most people right now because they don't play an instrument and they don't produce music if we can bring those Joys to a billion people then we will have created a lot of value for them we will have up valued music for everybody on the planet yeah I mean I think you're right like right now music is kind of like a for most people a passive listening experience but what I love abouto is it kind of blurs the lines between creation and consumption right if we do things right and you know you and I are having this conversation in three years we won't be making a distinction between creation and consumption it'll just be like I did an hour of music today and I'm not going to tell you exactly what I did in that hour like the thing is like outside of like chat GPT cloud and some of these other apps like I think it's very hard to find like retention for

AI consumer apps but I think suo is like one the handful apps that actually return to and you know my personal experience is like I think being able to create songs that feel a lot more personal like I can create songs about my wife about my kids and like the lyrics are like a lot more personal just kind of brings me back and of course it's also the consumption side like now you have an interface to actually discover music and some of the stuff is like really good like I would rather listen to this than like you know some play playlist on Spotify you know while do my work so I guess a question for you is like what do you think is like what are you seeing that's making users stick to the platform is it more creation or consumption or both I think it's both people come you know the thing that is new here is certainly creation and that is the reason people come a lot and there's a couple of different kind of sticky use cases that we see amongst our user bases but and then and as you said like people may come to create and then they'll end up listening and I think even the set of experiences that the average person around listening are just narrow they're just like they're not varied enough I think there is such a thing as leaning listening you know I don't know if you ever when your favorite artist drops a new song and you go and you put on your best headphones or you listen on your best speakers and you put your phone in the next room and you just actively listen like that is an engaging listen experience and I think that there's a lot of those that we can create for people a lot of this like you said comes down to personalizing music a little more but not personalizing it as in like these are the genres that I like and Spotify has a really good sense for What music I like to listen to but as you said somebody made this song for you know and I think about this a lot as the same way people take pictures or selfies with their phones and they send them to people and 20 years ago that just wasn't a thing that will be a big thing in music and right now you listen to music both because you like how it sounds but also because you somehow identify where to resonate with the person behind the music and one of the things that we are doing is we are just opening that up to way more people do you have any like high level like status you can share around like you know how many people are really liking this or you know people are coming back sure yeah I think I I'll decline to give the usage and retention numbers you know I think the last time we published a number was a few months ago but 25 million people have made songs onso and the vast majority for the first time ever you know I'll tell you something I monitor very closely is just the first day we see you what is the probability that you will hit the pay wall because go through it or not pay or not if you hit the pay wall if you exhausted your 10 free songs you enjoyed the last 15 minutes or so of your life and this is something I watch very closely we're not changing the business model or anything like that but like this going I mean this is quite high it's almost 50% th this is a huge barometer for how enjoyable the product is and at the end of the day people are not going to use things over and over again if they're not enjoyable maybe you even came because this is some AI novelty thing but if we gave you a really enjoyable first day you will come back over and over again yeah and the other thing is

like when I make a song on know like I want to get other people to listen to it right so there's some sort of BU audio referral bu building 100% so all of our growth has really been organic to date and it's because music is really meant to be shared and in some sense it that sounds almost like a crazy thing to say like CU music is not shared enough but music is really meant to be shared it like that's why it was in Ed and so we're kind of bringing it back from you know from 2,000 years ago and are you seeing you know any kind of Creator product like what I've seen is like you know the top whatever 5% make up a lot of the U usage but soono it's like so approachable but I'm wondering like what kind of customer segments are you seeing like you seen the Casual user you seen people who are actually spend a lot of time curating making music trying to become top Creator H know like what kind of yeah that's a great question it's fairly bimodal there's basically the power users who sit there for hours at a time and make amazing songs and they perfect them and they have a vision in their head for What the song should be and they are going to sit there until it comes out right and then there's the Casual users who made a song with their kids I do a ton of that who made a song about something funny that happens in their life like Starbucks writing their name on the coffee wrong and sharing that with people and having a moment of levity and you know so we call that basically soundtracking your life and there isn't a ton in between there um which is super interesting there's a lot of daily active users in both categories but they're very different use cases interesting do you have any um practical tips to actually create really great sunos songs that maybe the power users use that like the casuals can learn more from you know it's funny I mean there are users who are way better than I am I think learning to describe music is very hard and that's a big one and so it's like sure there's lots of these genres that you can use but then like going around and seeing what people do onso can you kind of interesting ideas like describing emotions different ways of describing Tempo different ways of mixing and matching genres I think this is all very interesting another thing that I'm really fond of is capturing sounds from my daily life and uploading them and using those as inspiration and this is something that is so uniquely you when you capture some interesting sound it's not even music it's like you know sound something knocking into something else and like it really makes it personal because it's like it's music that came from my life somehow and I really enjoy this you know I don't know if you're familiar with a guy called Charlie poth yes yeah and so you know he has gone viral multiple times for basically making music out of mundane and ordinary sounds and he's amazing but he is like an incredible musician he has Perfect Pitch but like there's something that I find almost offensive that should be accessible to everybody you should not need to be as talented as Charlie poth is to make music out of the mundane sounds that you find in your everyday life and so I think bringing that to more people is really powerful I didn't even know that I should have used to more I didn't even know that feature exist you can upload audio Yeah okay like what's the example of some mundane sound you uploaded like your kiss singing or something or yeah or you know banging on a table you know tapping on the table with pen and pencil or just like a really noisy streetcape you know like there's construction outside and I'm just going to record it and then I'm going to make a song out of that you know it's and the ways in which will incorporate it are like very varied and very interesting wow okay I'm going to try that right after this interview that sounds fun yeah so let's talk a little

bit about how you and the team actually build products like maybe you can walk through like you know either sunu V4 or like some feature that you ship recently and kind of like how you guys did it from like idea to release sure you know I think like in some sense V4 is an obvious product it is basically an improvement to the music in every way the audio Fidelity is higher the songs are better and catchier the lyrics come out better you know and so I don't know if that is necessarily some great product Insight it's like you know you have to understand the ways in which you're deficient and how you have to fix those that's more of a machine learning Le feature development in fact like the product itself didn't change at all other than the underlying music but I think that something that is lost on many AI companies is that you in the business of building a product uh most companies are not only in the business of selling a model and even the ones that are you know really need to care about their product and so it's not just a model arms race game and that you need to think about building features that are intuitive and so I think that the best features are not ones that like my model happens to be able to do this and so I do it the best feature is a one that you think about and then you build so I you know I think my favorite sunno feature is probably covers so think about covering a song you know there there's lots of famous covers of different songs and you know I constantly find out that actually a song that I thought was by someone else is actually a cover and it's originally by the original artist I yeah I'll embarrass myself by telling you all the things that I get wrong but and the reason covers a cover song is so interesting and so sticky is that intuitively music resonates with us because it is the right mix of things that are familiar and things that are different and for a cover song If the original song is familiar you're getting the familiar bit for free and then you can really innovate on how it should sound beyond the basic the lyrics and the composition and so and everybody has songs that they know and that they like and wants to hear them redone in different ways that are in their head and so this is something that's more like we think about oh this would be a lovely thing for people to be able to do it is a very comfortable introduction into making music because I don't need to come up with a song from scratch here is this suo song that I really like let me try to cover it in a new style and then we have to figure out how to do that and both from the machine learning side how do I actually make it so that I get the same song in a different genre and that is an you know was an unsolved technological problem that we had to do but also from kind of the user interface side like what is the beautiful and intuitive way a user takes a song listens to the song and then thinks about adapting that song in some new way and so I think in the future you will see us iterate a lot actually on this covers feature were people asking for this cover feature or how do you guys realize this is something you should build not a ton professionals would be asking for it maybe sometimes in a little bit like can you just do that same thing again but change this one thing and then we realize that do that same thing again and change this one thing there's actually a mass Market appeal there if you can do the covers thing and so it was a little bit of talking to users professionals and then a lot of iteration and so you probably have like some sort of community of sunno users that you talk to on a regular basis right is that yeah you know we are really lucky to have a very large and very engaged Discord and you know a lot of this is because we originally only had the product on Discord but I think there are 400 people in that Discord and so that is a fire hose of information you know it's noisy too but there's a lot of good information in there and how do you just give some specifics like you have the customer feedback from Discord and probably from Twitter and these other places you probably also mon some key metrics right of like how good this stuff is or like do you just monitor like the high level retention user metrics or is there some sort of specific thing that we monitor lots of things we monitor short our metrics we monitor retention we monitor users we monitor all kinds of things we have we spend a lot of time just talking to and interviewing our users something that is maybe not obvious that we monitor is just like what fraction of the songs get liked you know like this is a very useful metric and it is sensitive to all kinds of things that you wouldn't really think that it should be sensitive to so just as an example if you have some bug and your latency goes up so you know maybe it usually takes 10 seconds before you can start listening to your song and it you know for whatever bug or GPU unavailability you have it starts to take 13 seconds users will like their songs less which is like I mean some sense really interesting and really good because you have a vector here to improve how much people like the product in another sense it's like really bad because you're like the song came out the same and somehow you liked it less you know on average and so I think that really points to just how important the user interface is for all of these things yeah I think likes and maybe like YouTube like how long we listen to a song for like that's probably like another signal 100% or so we look at all of these things what fraction of your songs do you listen to past you know the first 30 seconds something like that what fraction of songs get shared stuff like that how do you this you know I'm not an expert building ad products but one thing I have experien is like you know this stuff is like non-deterministic and how do you know if something is actually good enough to ship like that is because you know it could have a good output one day and like bad output the other day but I guess with music is much more it's Le less like clear clear cut so how do you de this is a really hard problem there are no good benchmarks it is you know and so in some sense we get really lucky that V4 we can make improvements in all of the things that we care about but like you know maybe there are diminishing returns on one of those things and you know you think you ship V5 and it's better in two of those things and it degraded slightly in the third thing or something like that so this is really hard we will do a variety of heuristics here obviously there there's no Silver Bullet and I think that ultimately good judgment is what makes this work and it's not easy to quantify but I think that good judgment is like far more important than good skills basically and you know you really need people with good judgment in music and otherwise you know but so but we do have a variety of puristic for example you can if I have a new model I can you know use it on 1% of all songs and I can see how much more or less does it get liked as an example I can do that for you know so you know are we'll use a variety of Tricks there's no kind of one Golden Rule other than trying to use good judgment everywhere got it yeah and how

about when it comes to like some hard one lessons or like principles that you have when building AI products like for example I talked to the founder of granola the AI meet meeting app which is great and he told me like hey you should not be solving problems that the next model will fix you know that's like one principle he has but like I would love to hear like you know your top three or high many principles that you learned sure I think a big one that kind of maybe the biggest one in the whole company is that like yes AI is the most you know kind of important ingredient that we know of to build songs but nobody cares that it's Ai and we need to you should almost not know when you use the product you should not know or care that there is a model underneath we are in the business of selling musical experiences to people and honestly AI is a pain in the butt and if there were an easier way to do what we would do like if there's an iier way to do what we do we would do it and keeping that in mind at all times I think is really important because I won't actually name names but I know of tons of products that just look like thin wrappers into models and the features are all determined by what their model is able to do and this is totally backward your product should be determined by what you think users will really love and then you should figure out how to make your model do that and it's really hard I think it's really hard to do that because usually when you start a company that is like an AI company and maybe you have to train your own models and at the beginning your company is just 100% machine learning engineers and culturally it is very difficult to start to Value anything but that but it is a cultural shift that I think is really important to actually start to care about your users I also you know without sharing what the numbers are you know our revenues have been steady and strong and it's because we started charging at the beginning and this is an immensely you know this is like not conventional wisdom but this has been immensely useful we know what gets people to enjoy something enough to want to part with their hard-earned dollars and it lets us build toward that and a little bit contrarian I suppose but I'm like very glad we did it or else you know we might have just like maybe the same number of daily actives but it's like not very retentive and nobody wants to pay because it's a novelty item yeah makes sense yeah novelty is like very prevalent in AI products right it's so yeah and I love the order point because I think it's like in some ways the differentiat of the product is in some ways not AI it's just like the great U and like you know how intu it is to use I'm not sure that AI companies present new types of Moes to businesses like I think that the way we are a generational and enduring business in you know a decade from now is like we have a superior product with some sort of data Endor Network effect and that's not new for ai is just a means to an end here I love that and you know running a startup is not easy right so like what were some like tough moments in your journey building Soo it's not easy but I will say it's fun I feel like I have the best job in the world and yes there are challenges yes uh it there are a lot of hours but I thoroughly enjoy it you know I think we are in you know maybe the obvious answer here is we're in a highly litigious industry which is music and this presents a variety of challenges you know without getting into this spe specifics we are currently getting sued and this you know I would certainly rather we not be getting sued that another thing which is like something between a hard lesson and a principle is I am just really glad that we are an in-person company and I feel very fortunate to have started this business kind of postco and to be able to kind of make that decision once and through no fault of any founder you know starting a business in 2021 where maybe you like have a few fits and starts of like we're in person now remote and we're and I think that is very disruptive but now you know I feel so lucky that I get to work literally shoulder-to-shoulder like in the same physical room with co-workers that I actually enjoy being around it's extremely energizing you see me taking recording this podcast in our actual recording studio this is not a fake background you know so I think that it is definitely a tradeoff you definitely lose access to talent that is not collocated with you but I think it's a for me at least it's a very obvious one yeah I don't like having official meetings but like just like hallway conversations maybe jamming with people like you get so much more done that way that's right yeah so going

back to you know like the music industry right so before we talk about the AI stuff like let's talk about like if you can give us a background on how streaming has kind of impacted the industry and like musicians or like your take yeah that's a great question I think look there are people who know far more about the history of streaming than I do you know I'm old enough to have B at Sam goody and gone through that you know but in a nutshell it used to be that you needed to okay let's zoom out all the way it used to be that there was no means of recording music and the only way you could hear music is by hiring musicians or playing it yourself and then there was a way to record music and people thought that would cheap in music and you could put it on vinyl and actually the original recordings there was no way to copy them so like if I had a recording of Beethoven's Fifth and you have they're actually not the same recording the Orchestra played it two different times and it got recorded two different ways but people thought that this would cheapen music in reality it made it more available and then you fast forward again and then you can copy it fit a lot more music on a CD than you could on a vinyl and you get to the streaming area where when it turns out computers are just great at copying and storing bits and this led to a lot of piracy like music revenue is plummeted by a significant amount I think like up to like 85 or 90% in some countries and I think that a variety of things had to happen to change it and a new business model was found that is great for consumers I feel like I have every piece of music in the world in my pocket because of the streaming providers like Spotify and apple music and I think that bring and now the music uh industry actually had its biggest year in a long time in 2024 by the numbers so it has certainly grown out of that hole but I think we all find ourselves at a really interesting Nexus now because I think it is really just it is very significant continuation of the previous trend of bringing it to more and more people and making it more and more easy for people to do stuff it is very significant but it is just part of that Trend and AI I think is a bit of a let me put it like this AI is a bit of a strange catch-all blanket term in music it can mean lots of different things and so when people are either Pro AI or anti- aai I think you always need to kind of get another level of detail because like there is AI on basically every piece of pop music that's made whether that's autotune or these AI based tools for making micro adjustments or stemming tracks or whatever it is an important part of the tool chain maybe I'll say this I think that just with regard to the lawsuit I think there's you know in many cases including hours there's basically two sides there's the existing industry side in this case music but it's kind of a general thing which is like new scary change shut it all down make it go away and then there's the Silicon Valley approach which is like screw you existing industry I'm going to disrupt you away and I think that in my opinion in this case it's very obvious that both sides are wrong right like neither one of those approaches is correct that is actually part of the reason we don't build the company in Silicon Valley we in Cambridge Massachusetts but to the extent that there's one thing that both sides agree on it is everyone will say well we know it's coming we know AI is coming and I think that this is actually not correct if we just sit around and say well we know AI is coming so the existing industry the music people will say we know AI is coming because you don't want to sound like too regressive and so you know you say oh we know it's coming I'm you know I'm hip and the Silicon Valley Tech Bros will say like well we know AI is coming this is basically a security blanket to you know to feel better about yourself for putting people for putting pressure on people's jobs and I think that there again they're both wrong if we just if I just sit here and I say AI is coming this is going to give you the sense that like it's inevitable there's nothing that I can do to impact it and that's just wrong like we have to build the good future of AI and music if we don't someone else will build the bad future of AI and music what is I can think of a lot like someone is going to come and make some AI program that just lets me make an infinite number of songs that sound like my favorite artist and my favorite artist isn't going to see a dime we don't do that but somebody else might another I think bad version of the future of AI and music is one where like um hyper personalization where I just log in and I stream music that sounds amazing to me and nobody else and it is very antisocial and very solitary it's like basically the equivalent of musical pornography this is not the future of AI that I want to build for music and you know what I tell everyone is like let's make the good future is that there are a billion people way more into music than they otherwise would have been and I basically I challenge somebody to explain to me how a billion people way more into music than they could have been is somehow bad for artists so yeah I think this is you know I know that was a lot but to sum it up like this is part of a very natural progression I'm actually quite optimistic that there's a lot of good outcomes here and there's a basically a lot of pie growing to be had yeah no I think that's the that's what I'm really excited about like I think you're Miss is really on point cuz like instead of you know passively listening people can actually participate in making music and sharing music you know like I actually you know now that I have kids like I I listen to like Let It Go like you know 100 times every day I'm like I'm actually starting to develop like an antagonistic relationship with that song or music but like you know if my kids can stop listening to that stupid song and actually like create their own music or like be part of it that could be really amazing for my entire family and I think another point is like you're in these tools but the people who are really good at these tools will probably still make better music than people like me right so maybe there there's still like a lot of new ways for you know professional artists to monetize or like to actually earn a living yeah I think that's right you know I think in music it will be much harder to take the human aspect or human guidance out of the creation process as it will be for more fact-based things just as an aside there's an amazing playlist on Spotify I'm going to get it approximately wrong called like kids music that isn't annoying highly recommend oh yeah okay I got to look that up yeah and how about for sun in particular what

are you excited about for 2025 like what do you have I think this is gonna be a really fun year I think bringing sunno to way more people I think you'll see us make better music I think you will find it more intuitive and more fun importantly to make music I think you'll see us make music more social also and encourage people to do this together I think that is the most engaging and fun form of this thing whether that's asynchronously I'll make something and share it with you or synchronously you and I will actually make music together at the same time and then I think you'll see us continue to work with more and more professionals and you know we work with a couple now but you know I can tell you that we work with a lot more that you don't uh know about and that we don't talk about I can tell you that something that makes me really optimistic is that the overwhelming majority of artists that I meet um are actually behind closed doors Fair proo and most of them actually useo and I understand why they don't want to talk about it publicly and that's actually fine but it makes me quite optimistic about what's going to come I'm really excited about the social stuff man like if I can jam with you know with you or other people to make a song together that sounds really awesome yeah you know it's technologically a little bit difficult but it's coming and it is gonna it is going to be so much fun okay

so last question like a lot of people listen to this are like you know like PMS or like product Builders trying to figure those AI Stu consumer AI like you have any do you have any closing words of device for them to explore this stuff I think if you're building in the AI space just try to pretend like you're not you know like I used to go around and say our attention numbers are really good for an AI company and like that should really make the alarm Bells go off because ultimately you're trying to build a product and your users aren't going to care I think that I give you a hot take which is that I think like I'm not sure it is worth it for the average product manager to understand the internals of a transformer and I see a lot of people like trying to learn the basics and I really applaud people for trying to learn stuff but I think there are probably better uses of the time and better cartoon pictures to have about how these things work that actually understanding the internals of them are not going to matter because you can just like it's kind of like understand how compilers work you don't have to you don't need to know you can just you know I mean yeah I'm not sure my understanding of how a compiler Works which I don't it helps me write good python code I'm sure somebody who's a way better engineer than I am is going to take issue with that statement it's just like typically one wants to push on the on your comparative advantage and your comparative advantage probably is not your cursory level understanding of a transformer block got it and while and one last one tons of people in AI are talking about models that you know like take a to B text to sound text to song text to video uh this should also really I think ring alarm bells for people that is not how a normal person thinks about things and you should try to not think about things that is a very model Centric View and you should try not to do it okay so go back to the fundamentals of like actually solving problems right yeah like it shouldn't that shouldn't be a controversial thing to say but somehow it is yeah you should just use the word AI to get the funding from the VCS and you can just go back to the fundamentals your words not mine yeah okay and where can people find uh wello you know where can findo or where can people find you follow your journey yeah sun. com you should go you should try it is a ton of fun you can also download our IOS and Android apps on the respective app stores you shouldn't really look for me on Mikey Schulman on X but I never post you should go follow us on the company on xso music and on Instagram as well cool all right Mikey this is awesome I love what you built and keep going man yeah thank you I had so much fun it was great to be here