This is What Top 1% PMs Do Differently | Amit Fulay (VP Microsoft)

the more egoless you are the better you build trust and what I mean by that is if you are the kind of person who puts user company before yourself right you think you take a company point of view if you're the kind of person who says hey I actually don't need that many people for this project I can do it with less I think we are working on the wrong initiative we need to change it because this is not additive or I'm willing to do this for the other team you know you're wearing that hat what's right for the company user as opposed to being about yourself or your team or your project that's what builds trust because people look to you as someone who can partner well with others someone who always tries to strive to do the right thing if you really think about what will help you stand out who's the person who actually takes a broader View and tries to do the right thing even though it might not be in the shortterm very beneficial to you that's the best way to gain trust I mean you know how many people would say hey the product we working on we should stop doing it because you know it's very rare to see yeah and the more folks do that they build that trust and credibility that they're always trying to do the right thing cool welcome everyone so my guest today is Amit fle VP of communication products at Microsoft before Microsoft Adit spent 15 years building products at meta and Google he also teaches a popular course on how to level up from a middle manager or senior IC to become an influential product leader at your company so really excited to discuss this topic with him welcome AIT hey thanks Peter thanks for having me and congrats on your success with your newsletter I've been following you uh really good to see yeah it's great to learn from prodct leaders like yourself

so first topic let's talk about you know how folks can influence product leaders right and maybe the first step is to recognize what kind of leader you yourself are and I think you have a really good framework for this can you talk a bit about that yeah I mean i' I've seen uh product leaders who Spike on like three different types of skills you know there are thinkers there are Builders and there are harmonizers I made of that word but the essential idea is if you worked with a with an influential product leader you've probably seen them be really strong at one of these aspects thinkers are your typical Visionaries you know Big Ideas people um they're the kind of folks who get excited about the product craft uh where to take you know your product your Builders are more operators really good at getting things done might not be the biggest Visionaries but really understand you know how to execute have the context of the company the tradeoffs you know attracting the right talent to get stuff done and harmonizers are you know folks who are really place a huge premium on collaboration you know they have all the good relationships they optimize for people they are the kind of people who can do the tough negotiations really find when and I've seen you know product leaders typically fall into one of these buckets not to say that leaders don't have all of these skills they do they have a combination of these but what I found is there's a default and there's a strength there's a superpower which typically Falls in one of these buckets yeah and so how do you like

if I you know if I want to influence each type of product leader like how would I go about thinking about this yeah and I think that's a good question because you probably need to deploy different tactics right I'll give you a very simple example and I'm sure PMS listening to this podcast can relate to you know you go into a product review and you'll know what kind of a prodct leader it is based on which line of questioning they pursue right let's say you have a newu proposal there'll be some leaders who really get into the experience and the pixels and the details I have worked personally with product leaders who rely a lot on data and how we came about the conclusion the analysis they want to see they want to really dig into it I've also seen product leaders whose first question will be hey that's a great proposal but have you aligned with t-x have you talk to this person right because these are the harmonizer kinds and so all of you know if you're doing product reviews you'll know what kind of things the leader has now that could change based on the project or time but typically there's a strength and so if you first is like you should understand who you're presenting to know your audience so to speak you know that's like number one thing you do in influencing but once you have a good sense you really have to figure out what's the best way to appeal if you let's say if you're pitching a new idea how do you maximize your odds of getting approval for that idea that's your influencing goal and so once you know the leader I think you can rely on logic storytelling and narrative you can make sure you've done all of the I have aligned I have talked you know that kind of conversation so you can prepare once you know what kind of product leader it is and what I've seen typically when you stumble is when you have a Visionary product leader and you're going in with a lot of data and reason or when you have a product leader who's very data oriented and you're doing you know a lot of Storytelling and you know if they are receiving this they might think this is full of fluff show me kind of proof points right and so I think that mismatch is what people stumble over so understand kind of where the context is who the leader is how they see the world what their strengths are and I think you're much able to frame it in a way that you know increases is the ODS yeah that's great point and I guess you get this understanding from experience presented to them but also maybe from your boss or like you know your chair of Command right hopefully you can get some Intel from that exactly so I felt like hard in my career like you know if I'm one particular type to influence another type right so like for example like you know I think I'm probably in the Builder type like I like to execute and like you know just like iterate and craft really good products and then you know if I have to present to a leader who only thinks big picture it's harder for me to actually make it work yeah so do you have any advice for this for like people who have this default mode doesn't really match with the other leader you know look I think there are obviously big thinkers and I think one of you have to uh project your idea out in order to show where this what the potential is I mean we see if you're pitching a new idea in a startup this is the kind of thing wec's demand out of you all the time you might have a great product build but typically it'll be like how big can this be what's the T how much can you capture because they're looking for returns and so you know it's not an atypical ask a lot of leaders will be this is good but how big can it be and is it strategic enough for us to invest in it and so if you are in that position where you're like hey I've built something I would say spend time in you know just doing a little bit of 10x think in like what is the success case when you magnify the idea when you scale it out how big could it be I'll give an example my early days at Google I was working on Google Wallet it's like super early before it was a NFC based wallet and I distinctly remember in one of the reviews Larry was there and you know Larry was very famous for his 10x thinking he genuinely thought big kind of that's how he operated it pushed us we were talking about interchange rates and how you know credit card companies charge an interchange rate and how do you absorb the cost or do you pass it to Consumers and in that review we had all this data prepared on interchange rates and how much can we absorb and modeling and Larry was like wait why don't we buy a Master Card right and it was a question that you know stumped everybody in that room because it was a provocative question but that's the kind of thinking he had which is like if you were by Master Guard can we get rid of these rates and so you know I you'll see a lot of leaders push you push and help you expand your thinking and I think more you do it to yourself I think better off you're going to be yeah so maybe like removing yourself from like the PM of Google wallet and like think like if you were the CEO like what would you do with this project exactly yeah exactly UNC constrain yourself and like magnify in the best case now you don't have to mix stuff up but you have to you know be able to articulate what's possible you know what's possible in your imagination I think that is a skill now not every leader is that way right uh you I have found some supremely pragmatic leaders not that they're not capable of but they'll really talk about hey I just don't see why this would ever become big and in which case what you bu is the one that you really need to prove out but yeah I think you need both set of things So speaking of you know

Pro leaders product management there's been a lot of talk about like some people posting like product management is dead or something right and like and there's been a lot of flattening of layers recently you know people using AI potentially to place product managers so I guess given all these different trends like do you think there's like one type of leader that's you know maybe best position to excel right now or is this still think you need all three to make this work yeah so first on I know like death of X kind of makes for a really interesting provocative meme I don't know if I subscribe to that you know particular discipline is done or anything I do know all of us will have to evolve and this is not just product managers right this applies to Engineers because you see GitHub co-pilot and all the other things where you can automate a lot of you know coding stuff it applies to designers and marketers and all of us but I think of it more as something that involves and you know you really try to imagine if all of us have these tools and the tools AI tools and they get more and more sophisticated what would it look like 3 years from now and 5 my sense is you know are just this names and descriptions of these roles are going to change I mean imagine Peter if you're doing a startup 5 years from now and you start from scratch you're probably not going to hire Engineers designers the way we know today you'll have a group of people who are you know really passionate about a problem and trying to figure it out and you have all these tools you could design it and you could prototype it and build it and it doesn't matter who was a PM or engineer you all like product maestros so to speak right it's like and so the way with that when you think about that what's going to be valuable a few years from now is almost interdisciplinary skills right and your ability to just have a little bit multifaceted understanding of data and engineering and design principles and the Marshall those tools to build something I feel like that's where we are going and that's what we got to equip ourselves with so to your question what kind of leaders I mean I think the leaders who succeed are the ones who have deep kind of empathy and have the ability to pick the right problems and the way you get it done is we are all kind of generalists in some ways with a lot of tools that are the disposal and we can build whatever we dream of yeah I mean like the best people I've worked with are people who like AR already defined by their job title right like they were like there some PMS will do some design or Engineers of product opinions yeah you know so I mean you think of CEOs of a startup and in some ways it's the closest proxy we have today because as a CEO early on you are doing you know you're conceiving the idea you're recruiting you're a recruiter at some Point you're pitching you're marketing it you're building it I mean you kind of require all sorts of these skills imagine all of us you know operating in that mode because AI just enables that and that's kind of how I think about it okay awesome so how does that mesh with you know like the traditional PM career ladder right like you know everybody wants to become a VP like yourself how do you what is actually what do you think will actually be required to break into senior PR leadership in this new world or maybe it's the same skills that's always being required I think what's going to be unique to us in some ways as humans like forget product and the career ladder and Leadership you know what is unique to us that we can bring that all these tools can't do or all these intelligent tools can do and I feel like it still is a deep understanding of human problems and human behavior right your ability to actually figure out some of these things in the society to go after and the deeper understanding you have I think that is what is going to separate out because the cost of building I mean if you look at the cost of building anything has been going down even before the AI stuff right it's so much easier to build an app and deploy we've been seing that transition and it's going to probably come to zero because you can just whatever you can dream of you can build so who's got that imagination and empathy I think that's really the skill you need got it yeah and that is kind of like the Evergreen scare right that I think people should have for for life you know and it's also the toughest to master because it sounds so easy in theory it's like you know we I mean I personally also have used this word so many times you got to have empathy but you if you just really deconstruct it and unpack it and like what is it required what does it really mean it's not as straightforward as it seems yeah like maybe talk a little B more about that is it about like you're the right listening skills or why is so hard you know because I mean increasingly we are shaped by our own world I mean I don't know if we want to get philosophical on this podcast but you look at the macro and you look at what are the top problems in the world okay number one problem this is what wh talks about is access to drinking water right three and a half billion people don't have access to drinking water loneliness is one of the biggest epidemics and so you look at the these problems that are so widespread but you look at what People Like Us in some ways in technology are solving and focusing on I find that to be there's a huge gap and you don't have empathy because you don't live in those shoes right you you've not lived in those shoes of uh a lot of the people and we kind of solve our own problems yes you know our shipping of groceries should go from 60 Minutes to 15 to 5 to maybe it's automated I never have to think about and there's a huge gap between that and what the rest of the world might see so you know I do think there's a little bit of bluring of the boundaries that we have to go through and to live in the shoes of people and the problems build that empty yeah that's a good point yeah I think everyone here is like solving first world problems not like but most of the world faces and a lot of times we are all solving our company problems yeah and what so let's kind of switch gears a little bit let's talk about within a

company you know how do you build that credibility trust and kind of I guess like a personal brand to a certain extent and I think you have this really good post about the career trust ladder about how like growing your career is basically about gaining trust so what are the steps of this ladder yeah if I were to split like career roughly into like three buckets right your early stage middle stage and late stage the way to build trust in the early stage is really about striving for excellence being excellent right you're doing foundational things really well you follow through if there's an action item you get it done if you say you're going to deliver something on Friday you actually do it on a Friday small things you're early in your career your ability to just be excellent strive for excellent you're putting a product spec together you're not winging it you're thinking the you're getting the customer data I think the more you do that in that stage helps you build the trust you know that's been my observation I mean it's dependability right if you have a new grad in your team you're really trying to assess if you can depend on them or not that they solve all your problems but they get stuff done when they say I think the middle stage what I found the more eess you are the better you build trust and what I mean by that is if you are the kind of person who puts you know user company before yourself right you think you take a company point of view if you're the kind of person who says hey I actually don't need that many people for this project I can do it with less I think we are working on the wrong initiative we need to change it because this is not additive or I'm willing to do this for the other team you know you're wearing that hat the what's right for the company user as opposed to being you know about yourself or your team or your project that's what builds trust because people look to you as you know someone who can partner well with others someone who always tries to strive to do the right thing I think that's the best way to build trust and I think in your late stage as you get into leadership look it really comes down to what you stand for I think you know people follow leaders who stand for something in the world their view of the world what problems they want to solve the values they have and how they demonstrate them how they model them every day if your actions and your words you know there's a mismatch you don't have trust if what you say you value but your decisions don't reflect that you can have a trust deficit so really leadership is about you know what you stand for your values in the culture you said so I know those kind of like just simply breaking it down into three stages right foundational do excellent work as you get into mid management how much you try to do the right things without putting self above and really what you stand for I really like the maybe because I'm in the middle stage but I really like your point about being self selfless a little bit like not thinking about yourself thinking about the company and the you user because that's not the natural thing to do I think for people who just like are over fixed it on their Cur career like they're thinking about like okay you know how do I get to the next like you know check in the boxes for Nextel level or how do I get more scope or more head count right that's kind of what they're thinking about it is right like yeah it's my project how big is my team my impact and it's not like people mean don't mean well right you should have ambition and you want to push but if you really think about what's will help you stand out because if everybody's doing that who's the person who actually takes a broader View and tries to do the right thing even though it might not be in the short term very benefit IAL to you that's the best way to gain trust I mean you know how many people would say hey the product we working on we should stop doing it because you know it's very rare to see and the more folks do that they build that trust and credibility that they're always trying to do the right thing let's talk about that a

little bit that yeah so that is like actually one of the most challenging situations right like you have a whole team around this product and you actually think like hey actually we should stop investing This and like Sunset the product and then who knows if you the product you to have a job or not who knows but like how do you have you had some experience doing this like you had to Sunset a product without giving the impression that you kind of SC screwed up or I have I've worked on products that others thought should be sunset this was you know the middle stage of my career and later on I've also have had to do that you know it depends on the context of the company it I feel like it all comes down to opportunity cost you know it's really kind of what traction does your product have and to our previous conversation how big can it be and how do you compare it to the other opportunities your company has that really is the criteria I feel a lot of times you use to make these calls right over and over again it's not that your product is a failure I think you know because those decisions are actually very simple right this product has got zero Traction in the market it's not going anywhere I think those are obvious ones that are actually not super contentious in my mind right because people kind of know hey this is not working out let's try something else I think the tougher ones are they're kind of doing okay they are growing but then you know you kind of look at how big this can be and at this rate what is else do we trade off in terms of resources in terms of kind of our attention and those are the tougher ones to make and so again you know you take a broader View and you look at what else could be we be doing investing in yeah and you have to make those calls and when you're evaluting a PM that has like who's in this situation like generally speaking do you think someone who proactively like talks about this stuff shows more maturity or how do you evaluate PMS who have like you know prod that basically failed or like you know to cancel their own prod you know I mean I look I don't it depends on what kind of gu stage of PM is I don't expect PMS to always have the judgment to make these calls not you know but I think what you value in these situations is people who are have utmost honesty and objectivity right who kind of don't are not trying to hide the truth hide the dark spots embellishing stuff just so that you know you continue to do that I think that harms your credibility now you can be emotionally attached to a product that's in question but I think your ability to objectively say hey let's truly analyze what's the best is here versus what we could be doing I think that objectivity whether it's through data reasoning that's valuable right that's valuable more so than trying to sell or BS your way out of things yeah and I think that's pretty rare too right cuz like a lot of pro leaders they want to they constantly want to pitch their product it's like you know I'm going to present the most Rosy picture like everything's going well like quarters yeah there are cultures like that too MH where you kind of like selling to each other and you know the truth kind of is in the hallways not in the meetings right and you know you have a problem when there's Large review in a meeting and everybody presents all the stuff and people come out and they get a coffee and they're like I don't think that's ever going to work if you have that disconnect in a company right that's a culture problem yeah and so if you find yourself like always like in a Cell mode and pitching and not speaking the hard truth you know there's a larger problem not just the product you're working on but cultur you got to fix that yeah so let's go back to building trust so we talked about one way to build trust is to kind of try to speak the truth like no bu like be honest about the pros and cons right and then where are some other ways obviously if you have credibility you have a track record that probably build TR too but like what are some other ways to build trust okay building trust I mean look obviously credibility is a big part of it it's your tenure it's your track record it's what you've done in the past that feeds into that I would say how you show up matters a lot too in building trust you know you whether you're open to ideas whether you can take a contrary point of view into account be flexible enough that helps build trust with people who work with you know if you are blocking those things out you're going to get less of the truth and less of that trust from other people to come up with problems for you right so I do think it's not just your credibility it's how you show up and the last thing I I feel like building trust is your ability to speak the truth and as simple as it sounds I know for sure talking to a lot of folks it's not always the culture you know the bad news doesn't always travel fast hey this didn't work for x and there's a tendency to defend to hide to kind of not tackle the those issues and the more you are able to do it I think you build a lot of credibility and TR in the organization yeah but I think okay

let's talk about another challenging situation right so like you have a whole management chain and the person at the top might not recognize you know all the stuff that's happening on the ground so maybe you want to speak the truth at a person but like you know you have a manager manager who might want to present like a more Rosy P picture or something like how do you deal with like all these different level levels yeah I mean look those situations are tricky I would start with make giving folks in your management chain the benefit of Doubt don't assume that you know they're not open to having that discussion right I would share with those people yeah and if you find like you're still not making Headway right your concerns are still not being addressed then I think you should go to who you think will be receptive and can address it Ed katl right who was the CEO of Pixar had this really interesting principle which I kind of really like and he talked about your communication hierarchy should not mirror your ARG hierarchy that information should be you know free and fluid and you should be able to connect not always going through like a chain of command now I know it's easier said than done but a healthy culture you're able to do that right you're able to talk about issues in the right forums without getting approval from like a bunch of like manager folks so you know if you are in that situation I know Peter you are not but in general if somebody is I would not hesitate trying and going through the channels but like still pushing for you know getting the real data out yeah there might be like also like a timing thing too like you know like if you built some credibility yourself yeah then maybe it's like the or is more open to hearing you out when you try to speak the truth about other things yeah and also helps always to use you know come up with like what would you do differently what's the mitigation if you're going to highlight something's not working well you also want to suggest what could we be doing instead or how it better yes because if you don't have the latter you know then you just like a complainer and like that harms your credibility too if you're the guy who's only saying this is broken yeah without actually contributing to fixing it right that doesn't build credibility either so I would like couple the two but I think what definitely harms your credibility is when you know something is broken and you like sugar coat it and you massage it and you try to Market your waist out of it right that definitely will harm both the product and your standing yeah I I love that I think I got a similar advice before like if you have a problem you should try to offer some sort of solution if you have like three different options you should try to at least make a recommendation on which option you think is best like even if it's like not fully B you try just like me so you can say it's not fully B but you can try to make a recommendation and you know if you're trying to really escalate up in your organization it's always better to also that you've tried one of those Solutions like you know you want to come across as you've done everything in your capacity and now you're asking for help as opposed to look I'm just going to come and complain to you because you're the senior most person yeah that would makes sense that makes sense okay so let's talk a little bit

more about Microsoft I think you you've had a great experience there so far it sounds so you know like before Microsoft was pretty famous for like a lot of internal strife and competition right and like teams competing against each other and I think the culture has really changed since then maybe you can talk a little bit more about this because I think you've been there for a couple years now maybe You' seen this culture actually change like how has it happened yeah I know we spoke about this bit in the past but look if I would have just simply stated this there's no hubris anymore you know there's no like entitlement to success which maybe I found when the first time I was here I'll give you an example you know very recently we had this internal kind of a offsite conference for some of the senior most leaders on product and design and these were a group of folks who work on you know some of the biggest products I would say not just Microsoft but uh any software product there were folks from Windows and co-pilot and M365 and teams Outlook you name it and we had a couple of days of sessions and everybody was coming and presenting on various topics and pretty much everyone was talking about how they can do certain things better okay here's what we're struggling with X this is what we need to do here's where we got it wrong this is what we need to do and you know I was thinking about that and I was it was so refreshing because this was not very typical at Microsoft or at most companies there was no sell people weren't coming up and saying look how good their team and their impact has been if you were listening in that room you wouldn't know what products these folks are talking about right because it almost felt like everybody's an upstart everybody's behind and I think that is the thing that has changed in my mind with there's a lot of honesty there's you know obviously you've heard of the term growth mindset and I used to think before I join is this like a marketing thing is this real but I definitely see it's perate through and people genuinely are striving to do better no matter how successful how big the product is that's what's changed and what Ro has well you know has Microsoft CEO played in this like is kind of I mean I there's no question it comes from him right it the change if you think about he's like the nucleus the epicenter right and that that's the seismic shift and I think you know his leadership team and you know that's kind of just permed through but definitely he was the Catalyst because that was the only Delta between the previous one and this company so if you were to summarize some of you know SAA superpowers like is it like listening very well is it like being authentic you know being empathetic and also being decisive I mean he's done some bold moves right you look at the acquisition LinkedIn acquisition of GitHub all of the Partnerships we've done you know yes there's the empathetic side uh of him but he's also very decisive and very bold in some of these things and you know it's a combination of all those things that makes him super effective I I really wish I think as humans we're all wired to actually hear about the struggle and the vulnerabilities like that to me is much more interesting than like you posting about your accomplishments so I actually hope that both in like job interviews and like you know we trying to tell a story during all hands like the leader who's actually authentic and honest about like this the stuff like I have a lot more respect for yeah so let's talk a little

bit more about your elite pro leadership course like what are some of the main topics that you cover in the course yeah I recently I did a couple of C it's been fun it's an experiment and I started this course because at least through my Journey a lot of times I felt like in hindsight this was so obvious why didn't anybody tell me this you know because nobody has a nobody teaches you leadership so to speak right you kind of evolve and you grow and learn on the job and you as you go through this stuff you can sometimes you know you're like some insight would have helped me handle this situation better handle this context better M and so I felt that a lot I was like I wish I knew this one year ago I wouldn't have done that in this way and so I started this course so I was like for so that I can actually share those insights and hopefully some of them are useful for people as they are going through that leadership Journey right so that's the Genesis of the course by the way I donate all the money I make off this course so it is not for monetary reasons I generally feel like it's my way of giving back I covered three things in the course one is really about communication skills and I know it's like a often repeated topic but really how do you communicate to inspire to align everybody to actually rally people into action that's like communication is your number one job as a leader so I spend a lot of time on that I have a bunch of case studies bunch of techniques that I talk through the second is on decision making you know how do you think about decisions which are the decisions you should make quickly versus wait as late as possible how do you make decisions and there's a lot of case studies and that you know I then give those simulation to students and I tell them actually what the decision was so it's kind of fantastic to compare notes and then the third thing I work through is really how do you build teams and great cultures and you know it's everything from recruiting to rituals you can follow things that I've seen work for others how do you build healthy cultures how do you see truth always so that you know there's this notion of power distance the higher you go up as a leader the more curated you get the information right and how do you not fall into that trap so there's a lot of these kind of over my journey what I've learned from some great leaders what I've learned by making mistakes I've tried to capture that into Insight so that's the course it's been fun yeah some of the stuff like you could have spent like you could have Wasted Years on right like if you realize this like a couple years earlier you know and that's the goal it's like it doesn't prevent people from making mistakes but at least you're not making the obvious ones you're making new so that you have new learnings let me ask you like let me push a little bit like what is something that you wish you realize earlier that probably would have saved like a couple years of time or just made your life easier oh there's many things like that yeah let me give you a couple of examples early management I would spend a lot more time trying to get the average performers on my team to be great or low performers to be average I thought that was kind of my responsibility right over the years you realize the best Roi you can get is spending most amount of time with your top performers making sure they are happy they are challenged that's the best way to do it one of the other mistakes I made was you know trying to assume all the PMS have to be good at all the kind of core comp encies hey you have to be good at strategy and execution and design and then I realized you know what if I thought of my team as a sports team you know if you look at a sports coach right pretty obvious they you play a position and if you're a good athlete in that position you play You're a wide receiver the coach doesn't teach you how to be a quarterback right they look at your potential in one thing and they match you with that and the more we think about our teams like that which is you know Peter is really good at eggs and that's the kind of thing I'm going to opportunity I'm going to match with there are two outcomes with that one Peter as a PM is happier because they're playing to their strengths and second you get much better impact cuz now I'm not trying to put Peter on a project which he's not really good at and so how do you craft you know this is this was sounds obvious now to me but I didn't have that Insight earlier so I thought like everybody has to grade that everything and I have to get spend x amount of time and there's many things like that you I've learned over the years and so I just share those so that hopefully people approach their things a little bit more efficiently yeah that's the problem I always had with this these like career ladder things where like you have to there's like five boxes and you got to make sure you check all five yeah because like people like usually like do very well on one or two I mean you can't be terrible other ones but usually they Spike on one or two things right yeah if you notice detect a superpower that a certain person has and everybody has some special kill maybe not super early in their career but as they evolve and if you really capitalize on that and give them the right opportunities it's such a great team obviously you have to make sure you have a diverse team that not all of them Spike on One Thing versus the other but I think yeah so that kind of mindset actually really helps you craft a right mix on a team yeah I love that I love it's like a good person to work for so yeah so where can people find you like and also your course rep teaching our cohart my course is on Maven you can search for that you can find me on LinkedIn I usually on and off share my insides there I'm active there yeah my inbox is open send me a note if you have questions awesome well I mean thanks so much for making time I think this is an awesome discussion and I definitely learn a lot I'm sure you have a lot more to offer in your linking post and also your course so thank much Peter for having me and good work with your podcast I've been enjoying some of the guests you've brought recently so keep up the good work yeah it's my way from learning from people like yourself yeah cool thank you