LinkedIn’s Chief Product Officer on Growing to 1B Users with AI | Tomer Cohen

there's very specific principles that you need to start learning one of them is like thinking fast and slow about the outcomes you want like still start with your intuition but then you realize your intuition is not great enough because there's stuff that could happen and they will happen so then asking yourself like what can unintentionally go wrong if I'm successful number two you mentioned as well is something I strongly believe in that I see a struggle you don't control the experience when it comes to AI if in a noai world you everything on the screen you DET take exactly how the buttons would look like and the flow now you know you have this powerful technology but it's not deterministic and it will work based on your objectives but it will take time to learn and it will make mistakes along the way so if you don't have the patience like you would not be able to build a very successful product the last one which is if the object is do a number one job as a product leader I think your second most important job is the data and that's really key in AI because how you collect data collecting quality data and how you find you the data is how you differentiate yourself in this kind of new realm and I don't see many product folks thinking about data collection fine tuning they just assume it happens but you can literally like create stem function changes in the experience and value for your customers and members if you just train the AI right all right welcome everyone my guest today is toer Cohen toer is the chief product officer of LinkedIn and also host the building one podcast where he interviews other top product leaders welcome toor thank you for having me great all right so um you know LinkedIn has really become the go-to platform for professionals to share their knowledge online and personally I spend way too much time on it I probably get twice the engagement on LinkedIn as any other platform so maybe you can start by sharing some stats about LinkedIn skill if you have any off top of your head yeah that's it's great to hear it's been remarkable so I can tell you I joined kind of more than a decade ago and when I joined it was less than 100 million m members and now we are well north of a billion members and we continue to see accelerated growth so the exciting part is not only are we not slowing down we're accelerating in many ways and you know LinkedIn the best way to think about it is just we exist to create Economic Opportunity that's our vision so it's to help every member in the world have access to Economic Opportunity and every minute on LinkedIn it's everything from you know feed updates that you're seeing we have 1. 5 million updates being viewed to close to 140 hours of learning content being consumed but also seven people are hired every minute on LinkedIn 13,000 connections are being made on LinkedIn every minute so in many ways you can really see that exchange of Economic Opportunity happening across the platform whether it's knowledge sharing whether it's hiring and seeking a job or it's building your business across the board yeah and like you know just a few years ago maybe it was a decade ago but like LinkedIn usually just be a

place where people update their online resume right and very few people came to the platform to actually consume content and I think you played a key role in this transformation so like how did this happen like can you walk us through how this happened yeah I think the vision of the company stays the same there we just realized there's an incredible way to do it on a different platform that we did it before so you know with our vision to create Economic Opportunity for every member of the global Workforce uh LinkedIn is this incredible economic platform so I always think about this like every eonic opportunity you can think about you L LinkedIn can actually help you do that because it's built on this amazing top social graph I think the thing that became kind of a big focus of ours in the last several years is knowledge exchange so when you think about the engines of growth for the economy there is basically labor there's Talent people hiring people finding a job people being hired companies are growing there is exchange of products and services this is how you measure GDP but the biggest accelerate of economic growth is actually knowledge exchange that tends to have the higher slope in terms of productivity and for us that was an amazing way to facilitate interaction and connection on LinkedIn in a way that actually helps you become more productive and successful so I think it's actually more than a decade ago we launched the influencer program with long form content and we started to bring in some great voices to the platform to share their knowledge but I would say the key change was the feed when we started to focus on the LinkedIn feed becoming the ultimate Matchmaker and facilitator between people who have great knowledge people who are seeking a great knowledge and before that wasn't the case uh it wasn't a feed focused on knowledge sharing and that was a transformational story for us in many ways transition that from being more of an activity feed who changed the job who is going where who is what skill people learn to more of what does Peter have to share with his audience and how can I use uh what you've learned in your job so I can do my job better yeah you know I really believe in like you know it's not just about your resume is about what kind of information you share online and if you share really valuable information online you can attract the right people and hopefully you can land job opportunities or other opportunities I think that's like super powerful it really democratizes everything right it's incredible we have so many great examples here like I give you one that recently I I've really enjoy meeting with members and seeing how they use the platform because again it's a platform so everybody's using it in a very powerful way there's one member who was a game designer from Madrid and he decided he wanted to kind of repurpose his life towards helping people in need and he used his skill to build uh a prosthetic arms nonprofit so basically helping kids with that needed prosthetic arms and build it for them and build a nonprofit around him and he started sharing his ideas for building it started sharing how he would do it started sharing his key audiences and he attracted people to his content so before knowing like he had investors lined up he had Partners people to who wanted to work for him lined up and it started by him sharing his passion and what he wanted to do and according to him like LinkedIn was the platform to make it happen and he's one of endless stories about how LinkedIn was transformational in that perspective that's amazing yeah so let let's go back

to the feed I've worked with like many feed teams at meta Reddit and Roblox and it's always difficult being a feed PM because like you're like the homepage of the whole thing right and like there's so much scrutiny like if you make one little change like someone's product metrics go down or like some something happens so how did you kind of like go from this activity fee to this content feed with without stepping out a bunch of toes yeah it's a great goal and then the reason you know it's the job is hard but also the job is important is because everybody lands on the feed and it's the main experience of any social lab out there so it requires kind of strong principles and understanding of what you want to build I think for us the change has been really changing the objective of what the feed the purpose of the feed so I think before actually there was no dedicated feed team there's multiple teams working on it and relevance was done by a separate team and we brought it together into one team and in fact we brought it without the relevance team and then I realized I can't do anything meaningful without the relevance team being part of this team so we brought a relevance team together as well but it starts with the objective and I think for us the objective for the feed before was really about in many ways like you know TR traffic generator or like traffic distributor like everybody was putting their valuable parts of LinkedIn on the LinkedIn feed and kind of let members choose and it was based on a very shallow objective function which is Click through rats yeah and once you start to transform that into okay I want the feed to be primarily about knowledge sharing people sharing their craft people learning about their craft people finding their interest then you start to repurpose that AI function which is extremely powerful because it will do whatever you tell it to do into that objective and that we started to move away from CTR as the goal to we actually first we moved into conversation starter so people actually having conversations in the feed but that also is closely attached to viral actions and viral actions is being heavily kind of um abused by spammer so we kind of went deeper into Downstream actions and looking more about are you actually building strong connections are you actually having conversations after with those people and it's not just clickbaits that people are putting in and then gradually over time that objective function became very became composite which I think is the right objective functions for AI first thems and it was kind of trying to really personalize that experience towards the end goal of knowledge exchange and knowledge sharing on LinkedIn got it it's very hard to find a metric that matches like this kind of goal right or maybe it's like multiple metrics I I'll give an example like on X I think the objective function is like time spent rereading posts and what has happened is like all these viral videos started going you know super viral because like all these memes because the objective f is time spent but is that actually valuable discussions valuable content Pro probably not so when it comes to knowledge sharing do you have like a mix of metrics or you know yeah the way I think about it and I think this is true for like one of the principles I think our AI first for product Builders is the idea that you have to think fast and slow about your objective the objective of the algorithm and really is honestly it's really your most important job as a product leader like that's supposed to come from you should figure out what because that's the purpose of the product so and I don't see many product leaders actually spending time on the objective function they kind of in a way sometimes delegate it and it is the most important job and it's actually the hardest job in my opinion because it has all these nuances of what you want to bring into it what's a great experience and the reason I'm saying think fast and slow is I think you start fast with your kind of intuition what would make it great so to your point in maybe in X I don't know but maybe in X it's dwell time so it sounds good that like if somebody's spending time reading through it must be a good experience but we all know it's not so then you apply the slow thinking to it which is what could go wrong and like who can actually like what matter you know what could go even if you're successful in like making your metric go up and to the right what could unintentionally happen and there's so many unintentional aspects there's spammers Bad actors kind of filter bubbles that could happen so when you want to start to bring those into play what you're really finding is you have a composite objective that has a purpose it's not a grocery list of stuff but it kind of builds the right gr rails to make sure it's a quality experience at least for us that's the way we think about it got it yeah it's kind of like a race right people try to game anything so you kind of have to put it on the market and then see what was happening and then try to adjust your objective function to you know it's never ending yeah think about any Behavior you see it's not categorized as one thing like ask you who do you want to like what's the ultimate candidate for you to work on your team I don't think it's one trait that makes them very successful right like there's a composite of traits that will make them very successful I think it's the same thing here okay so I

have to ask you about LinkedIn lunatics the subreddit do you check it out or do I do not I've never checked it out okay all right well there there's some pretty funny uh posts on LinkedIn there's some really valuable knowledge sharing posts but there's also some pretty funny post like you know someone posted about how getting married what getting married taught him about B2B sales for example so what's your opinion about all this like is getting a laugh out of your feed as valuable as getting knowledge or yeah what's the mix you know this reminds me so it was like three four years ago we had this we had a the funny emoji on LinkedIn and we had this debate before we added it on whether it belonged or didn't belong and uh there was arguments in each Direction and I made the call ultimately to add a funny emoji because I think when we think of LinkedIn we sometimes have this model of what's the ideal workplace like when you go to work and we think of LinkedIn as like going to work but in a great place a place you want to go to work at what is that feeling like and obviously it's productive you get things done you meet great people you form strong connections you learn you grow in your career and those are fantastic but also there's a humor is a big part of having the ideal Workforce like the ideal like workplace environment you know there's like hallway banter and conversations and laughter and it's a part of getting things done and feeling great about your job and for me that was a big aspect of it belonged on LinkedIn feed as well how do we bring in laughter now obviously everything can be taken to the extreme and it could be unproductive not abusive and that's not the goal and that's what we're trying to do with the community guidelines that actually working really well for us where people kind of in a way sell like police the stuff they want to see and like they choose the people that actually are sharing productive things and it works really well so far some of the stuff I see that are funny are great you know I would share them in the workplace as well and I think those are that's a great kind of litness test if it's working or not yeah like you know on my team like you know I share memes in stack all the time so it's not like yeah it can't be all serious all the time yeah so beyond the

fee like what are some other like major products that you're Investing For Content creators or just for people who want to share knowledge in general it's it's a great point because ultimately when we think about like knowledge sharing we asked the question of like what formats what experiences are most conducive to the experience of coming together and I think generally there's two aspects that are likea by far the most productive from knowledge sharing one is video and the other one is long form and you know on the video side we're I'm sure you're seeing this but we're heavily investing right now in short Pham video and building this kind of video fit experience that basically allow people to share their knowledge and kind of bite-size aspects people can kind of grab on their commute and you know this morning I kind of walk up to the FED red cuts and saw all the commentary about it and it was fantastic it just gave me kind of a big boost of knowledge about what it means how it was done what's coming up what's the impact in the market so I think those work really well the other one is kind of long form and there we have newsletters and that's been taking off like wildfire in LinkedIn it's really exciting to see we have close to 200,000 newsletters on LinkedIn uh well know for 750 million subscribers subscriptions to those newsletters and over 150 million people actually subscribe to newsletter on LinkedIn so it's very powerful in the sense of distribution now the beautiful part about it is you don't rely on the feed when you have a subscriber audience right so the moment you have people subscribing to a newsletter they directly get that interaction with you so like a directional relationship with somebody if I go and I follow you on LinkedIn you know I will see your content on my feed but depending on how much quent exists you know something might be ranked higher but when I subscribe to you I'm really building this unique oneon-one relationship with you where everything you're posting I'm getting directly I'm getting it over email I'm getting into on the LinkedIn experience and that becomes a great way for me to learn about aspect that come matter to most to me so when you look about what subscriptions out there like it's gross the entire professional Spectrum so everything from economic analysis to startups to GEOS specific newsletters about like specific countries to Healthcare like I can go on and on AI kind of developments and movements and there's fantastic content in that perspective in fact I'm subscribed to a few that I read pretty religiously on LinkedIn the other format which I think works really well for knowledge sharing is events and this is where we see a l Live Events kind of happening on the platform great engagement with it we're seeing companies kind of promote their releases on it uh on LinkedIn your product releases or big announcements they're doing it uh they kind of launching it on LinkedIn so those work extremely well and then on the paid side we also help companies especially in B2B is a lot about knowledge sharing so when you're trying to sell B2B products part of it is convincing the customer why this product matters and it's not like a b2c which tends to be more about the appeal of the overall kind of packaging and the way it looks makes you feel in B2B you actually share very specific aspects of why this is a powerful could be a powerful part of your solution your Sol solution offering as a company and for that we added like thought leadership ads so for example you can promote thought leadership from people who are big champions of your product to Showcase how others are using it so those are all knowledge sharing formats really they're all experiences that ultimately are meant to connect between knowledge creators and knowledge consumers on the aspects of getting my stuff done at work yeah I mean I spent a lot of time writing a newsletter and I think you maybe have the biggest newsletter platform I don't think people know it right but the statue share with me makes me believe that it's probably the biggest newsletter platform out there I wholeheartedly believe we are currently like when comes like newsletter distribution reach number of subscribers it's extremely powerful and it's growing really fast so we're not we're it's still early days when it comes to us so just real quick on that like you know creators have this fear that if they rely too much on one platform then like you know if the aloh changes the next day or something like their distribution is gone but I think you have like beings where like you know people can see emails or like there's other ways to kind of like not be so dependent on the home feed like you said right yeah I think the whole is a wonderful place for you to for folks to discover you for your content to kind of get to reach you on but newsletters is one more venue where people can subscribe to actually events as well once youve our BEP to your events that's a dedicated notification that goes to that subscriber in fact what we're seeing right now is companies you know as we're kind of recovering from Co and people coming going back to iners events they're still having a virtual event with it and then people can subscribe to that at the same time so that relationship just allows you as a brand or as a business to build stronger ties or as creator with your audiences the fre is a Fant fantastic way to do it but there's other venues on LinkedIn you can do it with that's awesome yeah I'm glad you guys thinking about multiple channels so let's kind of switch gears real quick let's talk about

building AI products you've been doing this longer than most PMs and I've done it a couple times now and building AI PRS especially gener AI press is actually um It's actually kind of annoying right because you don't actually know what the thing will output like it's very non-deterministic so how do you have any like principles or best practices when it comes to building AI or generat AI products yeah it's a great question because actually I teach this I have two courses on LinkedIn and I teach at Stanford uh classes when it comes to product development and product leadership spefic specifically when it comes to Ai and I think this came from my own experience so when I took the role of leading the feed there was no such thing as LinkedIn as a AI product leader or AI product manager and I took that role I was I learned AI when I was in school I did some you know basic coding of it a long time ago but never really went as deep and then I just spent my time just focusing on the relevance and the ey component of that experience which was the most uh critical for getting to feed to work and that for me as part of this process kind of developed some really strong principles as a result of that both in terms of my own development but also seeing how transformative this could be for the company and you know the thing I start with when I talk to product leaders about why they need to learn AI is ultimately you know the product is at the heart of your company and AI today product so if you don't understand what drives your product how can you manage it and for most people they don't they just assume this is going to be something that basically works so you know it's a piece of technology that they're basically embedding in and for me I don't think this is how you build great products you're kind of missing the engine yeah of what makes the car move how can you build a car and so it's kind of start from this kind of notion that you can't manage what you don't understand and then it's the transition you have to do if you're a new product leader then you're coming fresh it's fantastic you don't have any scar tisue of how things used to be built in the past and I think every Tech Revolution changes the way we build products but if you do and you do Transition from this like non product Centric world of let's say a decade plus ago to what we're seeing right now then there's very specific principles that you need to start learning and the three of them one of them I mentioned which is like thinking fast and slow about the outcomes you want like still start with your intuition but then you realize your intuition is not great enough because there's stuff that could happen and they will happen so then asking yourself like what can unintentionally go wrong if I'm successful what's the more nuanced way to think about this problem you I'll give you an example if you're responsible for the Amazon shopping experience what do you optimize the algorithm for you optimize for clicks on products do you optimize for purchases Amazon runs on a very small margin do you want purchases with no returns so you want purchases that people actually will be happy with not just generating Revenue we don't you don't want returns coming in the door but maybe you actually optimize for Prime because if you're optimizing from Prime subscriptions there's you're driving a lot more loyalty so what is the algorithm for the Amazon shopping experience it's probably a lot more Nuance than buy the product you're searching for and you really want to think about like the kind of the life cycle of that customer same for us when you think about like when we show you job recommendations is the goal for you to click on the job no because not great if it doesn't sound like it fit for you is the goal for you to apply for the job if you're not great applied then you'll be dissatisfied and the recruiter will be dissatisfied is the goal for you ultimately to find a job that you can be successful at like that's kind of how we're thinking about it so you're trying to go very Downstream and very nuanced about the recommendation itself so that's like number one Thinking Fast and Slow about the user outcome number two you mentioned as well is something I strongly believe in that I see a struggle and not as it used to be but a big struggle for people

used to be a big struggle for people around you don't control the experience when it comes to AI you know if in an no I world you dictate everything on the screen you dect take exactly how the buttons would look like and the flow now you know you have this powerful technology but it it's not deterministic and it will work based on your objectives but like there's such a space for it to explore and probably it will take time to learn and you'll make mistakes along the way so if you don't have the patience like you would not be able to build a very successful product and that idea is really powerful and the analogy I give there is this form of like you have a chef in a restaurant like as the product leader like you know the restaurant is something that you dictate every experience in as a chef you dictate the music the ingredients the plating the tables everything is dictated by you and now with a in a way let's imagine you just get to dictate the ingredients but the I decides exactly how the meal is going to be prepared so that's a critical one the last one which is if the objective is your number one job as a product leader I think your second most important job is the data and that's really key in AI because how you collect data collecting quality data and how you finding the data is how you differentiate yourself in this kind of new realm and I don't see many product folks thinking about data collection quality data collection find tuning they just assume it happens but you can literally like create stem function changes in the experience and value for your customers and members if you just train the AI right and that means collecting data but also training it really well yeah because uh you know trying to write ground truth answers or like trying to clean up data is not as sexy as like right in the prodct strategy right well I can tell you early on in my feed this is a story I tell people early in the feed we have to clean up the feed from like a lot of let's call it like you know non nonprofessional or nonproductive content yeah and we had to create quality samples for the AI to see what is great content and what is not and that was months of my life doing it but it was probably one of the most important things I've done in that role exactly you gotta be will to roll your SES and do the stuff manually at first get the AI trained let's talk about your amazing career you were a Founder right before you joined LinkedIn and then you grew from I think a PM to C you know let's talk about there's been a lot of discussion about Paul Graham's essay about founder mode and manager mode what

trait do the best PMS have from your experience like you know when you think about your PM work yeah what what are some of the traits that the best PMS have or the pretty different yeah I think there's I would say specifically about kind of the founder mode we used to have this kind of value in terally called act as an owner and for me is like you just deeply care like it's not that you come to work at LinkedIn and it's just the place to work you actually care about the mission you care about the vision you like you act like this is your company like it's not just a place that you know provide salary for you and I think this just changes the way you think about the product like especially in the Pak area you can easily see who deeply cares and for whom this is just something that they're trying you know to do as a job people who deeply care go deep it's almost like you know and this is not just it's almost like a I don't know it's a mental state it's like if you walk in your hallway in your company and there's trash on the floor do you pick it up or do you wa for somebody else to pick it up it's your company it's like in your house would you leave it on the floor you wouldn't so I think like that's kind of like the think the owner mentality the founder mentality in many ways now for me specifically the folks I love working with and it's not just product but the folks I love working with are a combination of dreamers doers and Learners and I think it's really important in the product area like I think people who have a vision who know where they want to take the product it's just it's much more exciting when somebody walks into the room and they have a vision with the company's vision of what could change in the world if they do an amazing job with this I think it's really hard to build an incredible St function up experience if you don't have a dream of where this could take or where this could be and so I think that's a important trait for product people the second one is people who can execute ultimately not looking for folks who would pitch and Pitch but people who can actually roll up their sleeve talked about like the example of going and cleaning up the feed yeah examp see people who just like deeply care and they will do the work regardless of how hard it is I think the combination of doers is really important and then lastly you know we are fortunate to work in a function in an industry that moves very fast so the aptitude towards learning that idea that like whatever you thought you knew and you became an expert in the moment you slow down and you stop learning you're no longer an expert I think needs I me the idea of an expert I think should be challenged in this world because there's continuously opportunities to learn and folks who learn really well what I find is they just don't have any ceiling like they can continuously just invest in their career and create this compounded like value of not wealth in the sense of financial wealth but this kind of intellectual wealth that they're building for themselves so for me it's that combo of dreaming doing and learning that is the folks I enjoy most working most with and do you think if you do those three things well your career will kind of take care of itself or do you think you know LinkedIn is also a big company right like does how

do you as a CPO how do you like try to reward impact more than Optics or how do you like try to you know what I mean like how do you try to make the organization as it can be so I think one for somebody's career I think you're maximizing your chances of being very successful in my opinion again this is not for every function but I think in product the notion of dreaming is very important I don't see here you do any role without doing so and then learning is just a way to increase your potential like if you think about it people talk about like how people can meet their potential I don't think you should meet your potential I think you should build your potential probably I heard this from Carol D the U the kind of the founder and the professor behind growth mindset he talks about your professional stops when you die like you can always Build Your Potential Like There's No Limit to Your Potential so I think like the grow the learning side is extremely powerful there I think in terms of you asked about how to keep the product or kind of working fast and N yeah for me it's like you know I actually try to keep it small I think there's just reality that as you grow there is just this externality to play there's more communication routes to consider there's more factors that doesn't exist in a smaller and smaller organization so there's just reality that when you go the organization this is why at a certain point you start to see diminishing returns because it's just hard to get things done unless there's a technological leap that actually allows you to do things really well whether it's email a long time ago and then teams or slack or stuff like that it allows you to be very productive I think the idea of trying to keep your organization small as much as possible is a great way to be very Nimble small and flat otherwise you know like unnecessary layers create just unnecessary needs for information sharing which is transactional and not always super clear just m like multiple decision just make you're making the system more complex so if you can I would try to keep it small and then there's just that realization that every organization that it grows has this notion of inertia that is built into the system that unless you fight and unless you try to do a better job in getting that organization to be nimble and fast it will not happen on its own you need to be you need to like you know intentionally think about how to create those areas in the system that will help you move much easily and create that velocity you want but it's really hard to keep the same velocity you have as a startup when you grow into a large company yeah the bigger could be much in much bigger as a bigger company but you need to always fight the trend of the kind of slow you know slow growth coming into it yeah you want to like kind of reevaluate your processes and like are people spending too much time making documents or like going multiple layers up to you want to kind of like Pro stuff right assume people are doing their best and they come with the best intentions and regardless it's moving slow so then it's not the people necessarily again it might be you want to hire for folks who are like more entrepreneur minded more of that founder mentality who act as owners but you should also realize the system could be much better nimble and figuring out like what's the processes to cut and I would start with like why do you even need this process before you establish a process before you do something I think it's a great way to do it okay last question to you know since you're CPO of LinkedIn it's still pretty tough time in Tech right now like a lot of people have lost their jobs or are struggling and maybe a lot of people want to become aipm or something like how do people what what's the best way to kind of land your dream job outside of just like randomly applying to a bunch of companies and maybe use linking

uh it's a great question so one just from uh where we see the kind of job market going and the skill set necessary you know when we look 10 15 years out it's really hard to know what jobs would be most in demand in fact like you know if you asked me 1015 years ago that I knew prompt engineering would be the most in demand Ro right now I wouldn't right and so you know there's a but basically that tells you is that AA that you continuously have to build your career and learn is critical so if you're thinking I'm going to learn this and do this for the rest of my life I don't think it's a great way to think about kind of building and investing in yourself so what would ask yourself what paths gives you the highest velocity of learning how can you make yourself more and more valuable every year what jobs gives you the opportunity to perform but also learn what people you work with that you can learn tremendously from and especially if you're early in your career would optimize a lot for learning uh versus trying to you know get a title or an area or so on in terms of you know for me I had a big shift in my career where I was like you know 14 years ago 15 years ago I focused more on areas that I was super excited about I had strong conviction in and wanted to work on and instead of looking at what jobs existed out there I try to find the best people on LinkedIn that can that are related to those jobs or companies or opportunities and have conversations with them and in a way kind of pitch myself as somebody who could work on those but I was very focused on just a few things few areas that wasn't kind of across the board and this was for me a change where I wanted to focus on areas that matter most to me versus aspects that just were more in demand actually even internally at LinkedIn I mentioned the feed example that nobody want that role when I took that role I don't think there was uh I don't remember any competition for that I asked to do that role because I strongly believe in that I think this is where like if you go deep in your whether it's your currently employed or unemployed if you go deep on where you believe that like the demand would be or what interests you that intersection of both yeah I would just spend a lot of time on that and then by the way maybe it doesn't work out and two three years later you recalibrate which is completely fine but at least you are very focused at first of about what you want yeah I think that's a really important point like I think trying to optimize for like a title or like you know a company brand name you don't actually like the work is like very risky Like You Gotta Be honest with yourself about what actually gives you energy you know um and another thing I've seen is like a lot of people are like oh I need to become a PM and I can really build some really cool products though in this day and age like you can just like start building right now right like just start using Ai and build stuff find some customers to me that is uh more impressive than potentially even having you know fan on your resume if you can do that yeah I think Builders have this privilege that they can talk about what they build and show it and today literally to your point you can build some pretty remarkable things at home from your home office with just a simple laptop yeah and you can show your craft ability to the extent that this is what interests you but there's pretty remarkable opportunities in the product space cool all right to so where can people find you on LinkedIn or where can be find your podcast yeah so thanks for asking so on LinkedIn to Cohen feel free to send me a message I read all the messages I can't always respond to all but I promise I read everything that is sent to me and whether it's feedback bugs reports or requests for features uh feel free to send it to me and then to the point about the podcast I have a podcast where I basically interview Builders of all spaces so like not just Tech but like we're from chefs to the founder of Pixar to uh you know the CPU of Roblox to many others and the thing there I'm trying to convey for people who are interested in this is that there's no one way of building being successful with Building Products it's really diverse and it's what authentic to you so hopefully when people listen to the podcast they not only just taking some great lessons about how those people build but they're also thinking about okay what's unique to me that I can potentially bring out to Market and shine in so we just finished season one we have season two coming up which I'm really excited about as well but also people have feedback on the podcast I'll be happy to hear that as well awesome T thanks so much for your time at this awesome thank you Peter