How Top Experts Use AI to Write, Code, and Run Their Business | Dan Shipper (Every)

what I will often do is I'll go take a walk turn on my voice memo app talk out loud about like whatever is on my mind and then I'll transcribe that with whisper then I'll throw it into chat gbt and be like can you summarize what I said can you pull out anything interesting any ideas that you think are like particularly good and it's really quite good at doing that and pulling at the little nuggets of like insight for me and then I'll have a big document full of notes I have no idea how to like turn this into anything cuz I've been thinking about this for so long and I'll often take that and throw it into chat to your CLA and be like hey can you please turn this into a outline and it's actually really good at figuring out how to take the unstructured blob of notes that I gave it and then find the simple structure for me that helps me like get started it's really good for helping you understand what's not working about a piece you're writing with ch and CLA I can just sort of like throw it in there and be like hey you're an expert computer scientist can you like look through what I wrote and see if there are any problems with it it's not going to be perfect but it does fine stuff and it gives me a level of confidence where I'm like yeah I think this is pretty much right I think we can publish it and that just dramatically expands the number of things that I can actually

write all right so today I have the pleasure of talking to Dan shipper Dan is the co-founder of every uh popular Tech publication and he also hosts a great podcast uh that he re recently rebranded to Ai and I right I did thank you I'm excited to be here yeah it's a great name so Dan we're both writers so why don't we start with this like how many hours do you think you save every week by using AI to write and do everything else that's a good question I don't really think of it as like saving hours because I still spend like a lot of time writing um I think that there are certain tasks that would have taken me a while that are a little bit more instant or just are much much shorter than they used to be um but I spend I still spend probably a similar amount of time actually writing I just spend it on other things so I think there are certain tasks that go from like I don't know like 30 minutes or an hour to like a c couple minutes or something like that but I'm just spending the rest of the time on other stuff got it I mean like why

don't we go back to a time before you know chat GPT and all these other tools like how did you write a new post or article before this stuff existed like maybe walk me through your pro process how did I write a post before this stuff existed I mean I would have I had a lot of notes which I still do and I would go like have a bunch of things in a Note file or in a TOD list of like different ideas and different like sentences and quotes and all that kind of stuff and then I would go and sit down in front of a Google doc and try to turn it into something good uh and then I mean there's like a lot of there's a lot of nuance there right like Googling or Internet research or a lot of like looking at different books that I've read or talking to people or whatever there's I mean at every we have editors so there's a lot of editing going on which is still happening so there's a lot of sort of complexity to that process but it's sort of fundamentally a like process of me Gathering a bunch of different pieces of information or pieces of ideas or insights and then sitting down and typing them up in the right order got it so you do you have like a list of topics you want to write about and then you kind of gather a bunch of raw re research on it is that kind of how it starts yeah and obviously like it sort of depends on the topic but like how much re research I have to do but yeah in general like I have a bunch of little ideas or little ideas for like headlines or topics that are kind of like catching my eye and then I have a um for each one of those things like especially if it's a more complicated thing I'll just have a little notes stock where I'll just throw little ideas into it as I'm turning it over in my head so that when I get to write I usually have some raw material to work with and are you one of those writers who like writes a first draft first and then edits or do you kind of like edit along the way or how do you do that writing versus editing I edit as I go which I think I don't recommend necessarily so for me like as I'm when I'm editing as I go it's not a sort of like perfectionistic thing that gets in the way of me actually continuing the piece sometimes that happens like I'll notice that I'm like over editing and then I will like just stop that and I'll just like write something I'll just be like okay you got to just write something terrible um and I'll just force myself to write without editing but normally it's sort of like I'll write some stuff and then I'll go back and read it that'll get it in my head where I'm like okay this is the flow this is the like the rhythm of the piece um and then I'll tighten up the little parts of it that like seem like they're kind of um you know stuck or not really flowing in the right way and then because I've caught the flow of the piece I can go and add a couple more paragraphs and then I'll do the same thing again I'll just start at the beginning and then keep going like that definitely some sort of quality bar but you're not like a perfectionist when trying to do this yeah I really try not to I mean like I publish every week so yeah it would be kind of impossible for me to be too perfectionistic about it I'd go literally crazy um it goes back and forth right different pieces have different levels of weight to them and different levels of like oh my God I really hope that this is good and this is really close to my heart or whatever and sometimes those are hardest pieces to get out because you've been thinking about them for so long and you feel like you have This brilliant idea and then once it actually gets on the page you're like this sucks like I hate this I don't know why this is so bad there's just you know it's just different for different pieces okay so

now that uh you know you're like a power user of AI like how has this writing process changed with these AI tools like where do these AI tools come in they're kind of like infused into every part of my process so in sort of like the first sort of like ideation stage one is I'm like constantly looking things up in chat gbt or Claud um just on its own or as I'm reading I'm like um you know taking a picture of what I'm reading and like being like hey can you like help me understand this or like tell me if this is actually right or like let's go a little bit deeper on XYZ it's really helpful for that and I think like if you're a writer to have good output you have to have good inputs and I think these tools are incredibly good for maximizing the amount of the amount you get out of your inputs um I think um also like when I'm sort of starting to get into like okay like I need to find some ideas things to write about what I will often do is I'll go take a walk um and I'll turn on uh my voice memo app and I will just like talk out loud about like whatever is on my mind and then I'll transcribe that with whisper and then I'll throw it into chat gbt and be like hey like can you summarize what I said can you pull out anything interesting any ideas that you think are like particularly good and it's really quite good at doing that and pulling out the little nuggets of like insight for me where I can look at them and be like oh yeah that's actually could be a good article idea and those will either go into a to-do list or they'll go into like an actual Google doc or a Lex page um we have an AI writing app that we incubated every called Lex so sometimes I use that once that happens what I'll often do is like especially for a piece that I've been working on for a long time like I'll have a big document full of notes and I'll be like I don't have I have no idea how to like turn this into anything like I don't know where to start because I've been thinking about this for so long and I'll often take that and throw it into chat gbt or cloud and be like hey can you please like turn this into a outline it's actually really good at figuring out how to like how to take the unstructured blob of notes that I gave it and then find like simple structure for me that helps me like get started which is really cool very useful I think in the actual writing process itself it's also quite helpful there's a lot of tasks that it makes a lot easier so for example a lot of

writing is summarizing so if you're you know writing about ideas which I write about all the time you're often referencing older ideas and in order to reference older ideas like scientific theories or philosophy or you know uh what happened in a particular novel that you're like relating something to like you have to summarize what happened the theory philosophical idea and um language models are really good at doing that and I wouldn't recommend necessarily doing it for things you don't already know about but particularly for things where it's like yeah I read this a long time ago I basically know what it says but like it would take me like three hours of Wikipedia reading to like fully summarize it in a nice way chbt is like perfect for like summarizing it for right there in the context of whatever you're writing which I love it's useful for all sorts of things like that like um it's really good for finding like the right metaphor or simile uh it's really good for helping you understand what's not working about a piece you're writing um even like I published a piece today about how language models work and the piece itself is not technical because I tried to make it as jargon free as possible but like it's covering deep deeper technical topics that like I know but like I'm not the world's foremost expert on and so in a previous world I would have been very hesitant to publish something like that because it would be really hard to check like I'd have to go find a friend of mine who's like really deep into language models then convince them to like read it and make sure that I hadn't made any mistakes and with chip and Claude like I can just sort of like throw it in there and like be like hey you're an expert computer scientist can you like look through what I wrote and see if there are any problems with it and it's not going to be perfect necessarily but it does fine stuff and it gives me a level of confidence where I'm like yeah I think this is pretty much right and and CLA and chbt agree so like I think we can publish it and that just dramatically expands the number of things that I can actually write yeah no I think you're right I think from my experience it's also I think it's like three things it's really good at summarizing stuff like you said like just pasting a bunch of research in there and telling you to like get the trdr or summarize it I think it's really good at editing like um I don't know if you do this but like I have like a crappy draft that I write myself and then I paste into Claude with a bunch of examples on my past post and I asked it to like edit based on my style that's really cool yeah it does a pretty good job of just like make cleaning it up and making it like my style and I don't necessar just copy and paste it over but I just like uh look at what it output is and kind of like manually edit my own thing to kind of like pick the best parts I love that I've never tried that I should really try that that's amazing yeah you should put your best posting clot and just like you know tell you to Ting a similar style and like um when you talk to you know chat CLA do you um do you have like a prompt structure or do you kind of just like talk to it as kind of like another coworker I think I always talk to it in the simplest way possible first and then if it gets it right great and then I will like add more details to it if I need it to get better so first is just like a sentence and then if that doesn't work then it's like often asking to simulate an expert like you are a professional editor um you are a like expert in computer science or whatever see if that works um if that doesn't work then um giving it some examples so like here's what I want here's like what good looks like or here's an input output example here's like if we're talking about article editing it's like here's a raw article and here's an edited article now I'm going to give you a raw article I want you to edit it in that style I also have it um if that doesn't work or it needs more like I'll Al also have it like analyze a bunch of examples and write itself a little rule book for like how do you do this well and then I'll put that in the prompt I'll also have it critique its own work and then have it Revis based on the critique so there's a lot of stuff like that but I tend to try to just be as simple as quick and quick as possible and then to make it more complicated if I need to got it yeah I mean like I think my most frequent prompt is just like you know here's like a paragraph or a few sentences like can you make this more clear and concise or like you know yeah definitely uh we can't find the right words it's pretty good at that and maybe you ask it for like a couple of variations right it is really good at that yeah and how about for like uh your podcast and some of your other work like do you use AI as

part of that too or I mean I definitely use AI for podcasting cuz we like use chat gbt and Claude and all these other things on the show so it's definitely part of a show I sometimes use it for prep just like guest research and stuff like that I actually I really like notion AI for that because I can make a little like dossier of like who the person is and it's all written notion and so it's like really well organized for me which is pretty cool and then for other work I mean at every we like build software um products so like I built an app for us like an internal tool we use end to end in like two days with chat GPT um like a month ago what was the what was the tool so it's called spiral and um basically what it does is it I noticed like a month or two ago that Claud is like a basically a 70% as good a writer as I am for certain things and there are all these like repetitive tasks that we do at every that are kind of like summarizing content from one form to another so like taking a uh an intro do an article and turning it into a headline or taking summary for our Sunday digest or taking a podcast transcript and turning it into a tweet to tweet the episode like there's all this stuff that's very repetitive that I really want to have in my voice or like in every is voice and either I have to end up doing it or we have a bunch of really talented ghost writers on staff who have to end up doing it but like for everyone it's sort of like a drag and with spiral you can just like basically create a spiral you can say I want to convert this to this and then you can give it a bunch of examples um it'll write a little guide for itself and then it like gives you a text box that you can paste you know your podcast transcript and it'll turn into your Tweet for you or it'll do like five of them and rank them and that way like everyone on the team can like start you know 70% of the way to good on these types of tasks and it's sort of starting there but I really think it could be used for lots of other things too like there's a lot of similarities to like decisions it's like I'm often asked to like make decisions where I have like a pretty clear set of rules or heris stics that I'm using that I think like I could put into a spiral and have it like give people feedback without me necess having to be involved I think it's good for code potentially for the same kinds of things and uh you can like string them together it's actually kind of cool so we've been using it a lot internally I think we're probably going to launch it um publicly at some point soon um so it's been really fun it sounds like a it's like a tool that gets you like maybe 50 to 70% of way there and then you know it's way easier to write with something on the page than like from blank right so it really is yeah it's really good for that and kind of like making the taste that goes into whatever that thing is legible cuz Claud is like making it legible it's writing it it's writing a little guide for itself and then operationalizing it so that everyone on the team is starting from a place where they sort of have a little bit of that taste infused into what they're starting with um which makes it easier to create a consistent set of tone or Voice or decision-making style or whatever inside of the orc and it's been really good so you've loaded thing with like a bunch of examples of your past tweets or it's like a few shot prompt right M yeah got it have you used this I was talking to Lenny yesterday have you used this to like for your podcast titles and stuff have you used AI to make it more click b or some of that like some of the pack packaging it's used for that so it's sort of like we'll give it a transcript and ask it like okay what are the what headlines should we use and it's sort of we have examples of YouTube or other kinds of headlines that we think work or headlines just from every that have worked really well um so yeah I definitely use it for that got it okay so let's talk about um all the great people that you've interviewed like you interviewed uh re Hoffman you interview like top creators like David peral what are some common themes in kind of like how they use AI or like some things that you learned that are common across these folks I mean I really think everybody is sort of unique and different in that they all have very specific ways that it like fits into their life I think the sort of commonality is for the people that use

it and figure it out and those are the only people I have on my show they're generally pretty patient curious people who are interested in experimenting and don't have the sort of like knee-jerk reaction of like oh this didn't work and are like I'm making an investment in like learning how to use this new tool and like it's actually kind of fun it's really interesting even when it fails you know and so I think that sort of spirit of open-mindedness and curiosity and exploration is like what allows people to get the most out of tools like this that are incredibly powerful but are also sort of like incredibly early in their life cycle and aren't particularly well understood so there's not like a set process necessarily for anyone to do any of their work because it's like too new and all the people on my show that doesn't bother them so much they're just willing to like go for it okay so it's just kind of like constantly experimenting and try new things and see what they can build with it right is that yeah 100% yeah I'm especially uh interesting some of the guests that you invited uh who are like more like solar preneurs or like trying to start a business like we talked about how AI can help you make content but like like do you also use it to kind of run every some other way like does it help you run your business in some other way totally yeah it definitely does I

mean I think like the first thing is just that it's a very high leverage tool so I think I myself and everyone else at every who are all they're all using it can just get more done like we have more Powers you know like um I can write a little faster but I can code way faster you know and uh and there are plenty of people on my team who like sort of went from like English is a second language and like couldn't code to like my emails that I send are perfect and like I'm uh I'm like coding apps even though I don't know how they work and I'm like doing all this design stuff like there it's just like a kind of a crazy power up for small organizations because if you have that sort of spirit of curiosity and everyone's like willing and interested in doing it you can just get like way more stuff done in in areas that you wouldn't have been able to already so that's one thing I think it's also just quite good for um decision making and sort of understanding different situations and understanding like what you want so I'm very frequently using it to like help me like in a particular situation like okay here's what's going on I'm doing this negotiation or I have to make this strategic decision or I'm really excited about this new idea like what do you think and it's really good at helping me understand what's going on for me and then it's also really good because I can put like my goals and stuff into its custom instructions or into its memory and then I can say like you know cuz for me I'm like a very opportunistic person I'm like a a puppy with a toy or like I just ch I like to chase shiny objects sometimes because I'm just like that's I just get curious and excited you know and I think that's a really fun part of my personality but it also can be a little chaotic when you're running a company and so chbt knows this about me and I've asked it to be like hey like when I'm talking to you about a situation like I want to be a little more strategic a little less opportunistic like can you just remind me that that's my goal and like and what my goals actually are so that I can see how this lines up with them or not and it's very good at being like hey remember you have a little bit of shiny op syndrome sometime like think about how this connects to your goals and I'm like oh yeah you're totally right I should just not do this right now so it's really good got it so uh

yeah I have this like GP that I made for myself called like personal coach or something and then I loaded it yeah I added a bunch of like my goals for the year and like here's my current situation and then I ask for like random advice is that kind of what you're talking about basically yeah and then you know when it has a scar johans or what whatever voice it'll be even better right it' be like a very patient I'm excited for that yeah I have not gotten the new voice interface but I think it'll be really cool for that yeah because uh if you think about it like even like my friends or like even my spouse like she doesn't necessarily have patience to listen to me explain my goals and everything for like 10 minutes you know but like this thing is like so P patient it listen to for forever it's very patient and it also just knows everything about everything right like I have a therapist but like he doesn't know anything about like running a media business you know so like he can listen but like he doesn't have enough context to like help me make decisions and so it's really nice to have someone who's like unfailingly empathetic and also has the entire knowledge of everything on the internet in its brain to like help you figure out what you want to do yeah you know like even in my day job like I'm constantly surprised when people don't use the stuff I I feel like the adoption is actually not as much as we think it is like because we're both like enthusiasts right like I have this

person who like is not really good at writing concisely and before I would like give them advice about like oh here here's kind of like some things you can do but now I'm just like hey why don't just copy and paste all your stuff into AI they get more concise like you immediately become like 10x more effective yeah I mean I agree I think that the adoption is lower than you think I think it's incredibly valuable for people and I think it's low because uh it's a very general purpose tool so you have to be thinking a lot about like okay where can I like fit this into my life right like you're staring at a a blank text box like that's sort of intimidating and then I think people also have to kind of like always make this decision when they're doing their job or they're going about their daily lives and they're really busy and stressed and they're like okay I can do this task in the way I know how to do it and I'm guaranteed that it will get done and I can move on to the next thing or I can experiment with this like other thing that I don't really know how to use and it might be that I spent an hour on it and I don't even get the task done and now I'm even more behind than I was before and so it's just easier to kind of like stick with the status quo and I totally get that I think like what I've tried to do at every and what I think is really important and helpful for companies is like carving out time and space for people to be exploratory about this stuff without feeling like it's going to make them get behind in their like day-to-day tasks so that they can get comfortable enough to use it well or I think another thing that companies can do is like there are some people who are just going to play with it anyway they're just like so excited about it they like love it these are kind of like the tip of the spear people let those people play with it figure out what they have learned what they have figured out where they'll do all the exploring to reduce things down into a process that you can use and then take that process and teach it to the people who don't want to do the exploring just want to get their job done and I think that's a very effective way of getting more AI use in an organization yeah so you encourage your employees to kind of share best practices with each other and stuff right sh related tools yeah um and then but specifically like encouraging the employees who are organically excited about it to go find the best practices and then encouraging them to share them with other people that don't really want to go do the finding but we'll follow it if they're given instructions got it I

want to ask you a quick question about using AI to code like do you think this thing has got to a point where someone who's not very technical can actually build something that's not just like a thing to play with like you know spiral or something that they can actually use yeah and I'll tell you like we have a like the very first version of spiral that was built like a year ago basically was uh someone who works for me his name is Lucas Crespo he's super talented he's our creative lead we needed a tool to like build to do Sunday digest summaries we have a digest of all the Articles we publish and it goes at every Sunday we have summaries of every article and it's very timec consuming to like write a summary especially from scratch and so he was like I think I could do something about that and he just like used Chachi BT to build and ship a Heroku app where you could like paste an article in and it would produce a summary of it in our style using gpt3 I guess it was gb4 and it like he it to Heroku and like he had no idea how it worked and we used it for like a year it's like not a good piece of software like I wouldn't sell it but we used it all the time it was like it's amazing and it's amazing that he all it took was him kind of like having the sticki liveness to let chadt figure it out and followed his instructions I think that um it's definitely though like there's this whole I think misconception that yeah like yeah any non-technical person can like go and like make something and it'll like be a business and whatever and it's sort of you can like you can definitely build and ship something and I teach a course where we take people from zero to you built and shipped an app that people can use in 30 days which is amazing but the way that happens is not necessarily like the AI is just doing it all for you it's like what the AI does is it gives you something you can see super quick like the first day of the course you build something that basically works and you're like holy I can't even I can't believe this works and then you're like okay I want to understand how like how does this actually work so that I can learn how to make it better and then we can do a lot of like okay here's the basics of programming and here's how you use CHP to figure out what's going on in your program and all that kind of stuff whereas like when I learned programming it was like six months of like if statements and like while loops and like variables and all this kind of stuff that like I had zero idea how it would level up into anything that I wanted to learn and so it was like was very taxing to get through that and I think AI sort of like means that you get to something that looks cool and works like it works like much much faster which provides the motivation to like go and understand the underlying stuff and the people who do both use the AI and understand how it works are going to like move a lot faster than people who just have one or the other that is a key step right you can just like use it to generate some toy program and like I think you actually have to take next step to be like okay now explain to me how this works like add some comment your code I think one of the more frustrating Parts when I play this to code is like trying to create something but it's not perfect and then you were like hey go fix this specific part of it and then it just keeps like generating so you end up in this Loop where you just keep copy and P pasting stuff right and hoping that it'll work so maybe like understanding how it works like allows you to tweak stuff yourself and like try to get out of this Loop definitely I mean like you can get into that mode with it where you're like I don't want to think about this I want you to do it and then you're just like fighting with it to like do it without having to think about it too much and yeah I think like you know sometimes s being less lazy about it and just doing it yourself is like helpful you know um but I definitely I have the same experience

okay let's wrap up by talking a little bit about the AI land landscape I think you've been attending all these like events right like Microsoft build and all these events how do you think the SPAC is evolving man like you know there's like open AI anthropic Google X aai who who uh what what's going to happen in the next six months or a year I mean I think like basically uh everyone was sort of surprised that Google and anthropic like caught up to gbd4 when they did which like to be fair gbd4 came out like a year or more ago so they're about a year behind but I think um open was so dominant for so long that I think people thought they might even have had a large longer lead time but my guess is that we'll see GPD 5 in the next year nine months to a year I pretty fairly confident about that but um without any in inside information I'm just like sort of reading the tea leaves and my guess is that it will be substantially better um I think there's a lot of questions about like okay are we reaching like diminishing returns and I think also you know the open source stuff is continues to be really interesting and what we're finding right now is that the smaller models you can make them much sparser and smaller and still retain a lot of power so like the big models are like relatively inefficient and so we're able to run surprisingly powerful models on smaller and smaller computers that like you know are just your laptop or whatever and I think we'll continue to find that over time and I think that's really cool and that feels very exciting um having more personal AI stuff available is I think good yeah because right now there isn't really a personal AI that just kind of remers everything you do or maybe people don't want this but I I want this like everything you do like I don't have to do custom instructions it just does just remembers all the and then whenever I ask a question it's like very personalized to what I do I mean that's basically what Microsoft launched um two weeks ago at build I think it's called reflect um or I think reflect might be the might be another app um it's called recall and yeah it just records everything on your screen and then and everything you say and all that kind of stuff and then it but it's all local and then you can ask questions and it's and all the inference is run on device on their like special Microsoft AI chip or whatever and that seems really cool um I'm down I'm actually I I'm also I've been testing this um this app over the last day or two called Gren which is really cool and it's basically like your classic kind of like meeting recorder where there are like zillions of these things but I think it's like the best most welldone meeting recorder I've seen which basically it hooks into your calendar it sits on your desktop and then what happens is when you're inter meeting you can start it recording but it records through your computer's audio and mic so it doesn't have to join anything like it's not like fireflies where it like joins the zoom call or whatever and that's super annoying it's just like recording everything that your computer is playing and hearing and that's much more convenient and then what it does is it lets you take notes and then it also produces a transcription and after the meeting is over it will take your like chicken scratch notes that you've taken where it's like a sentence here and a sentence there that's like not fully fleshed out and it will use the transcript to like fles them flush all your chicken stratch notes up into like an actual like well formatted document it's really cool I think it's very well done I got check it out it's called granola yeah okay I just got to get the problem is like some of these larger companies are like hey I don't want to use anyi tools for like security reuses but yeah I'll check it out yeah what do you think about like uh how AI is going to impact tech jobs man like um I mean first

of all like tech jobs has already been impacted by just like the deserve days being over so like a lot of people are impacted and uh you wrote this post about the new job called the managers of AI model's job right can you talk can you talk a little bit about that like what this do yeah the whole like kind of idea is we're moving from a world where a lot of IC work was like doing the work yourself and being in all the details yourself to a world where I think many of us are going to be more like model managers where we're managing models to do a lot of the like the work especially like the preliminary work like the first draft type stuff and so the skills that are valuable in that world are yeah definitely still having the like the sort of basic skills to do it yourself but also adding the skills of managers like knowing how to delegate knowing which resources to use for which project knowing how to scope something for a particular resource knowing how to use that resource well and give it instructions that it can that I can follow like all those things are things that managers need to know and I think like individual contributors of Tomorrow will need to know those same skills but for using models and that's not to say that like people won't be like going into the details themselves it's just to say that they will be doing it less frequently and be mostly you know if like the metaphor for like previous like let's say pring work was a sculptor where like every little you're taking a block of marble or something and every little chip is like something that you do I think you're going from that world to like thinking about like a gardener where you're kind of like creating the conditions for the plant to grow you're kind of like adjusting the soil and the temperature and the sunlight and the water and all that kind of stuff and the plant sort of does it itself I think that's a little bit more what's going to be happening with the obvious caveat that you also can go in and like do the sculpting yourself when you need to and so you kind of can get the best of both worlds which I think is really cool yeah I guess it's kind of like having a bunch of interns like you know if they're new to the world you give them like Specific Instructions you checking once in a while and correct their work yeah it's very intern like right now I mean I'm hoping you know in the next couple years it'll be like you know college uh or year first year out of college type person um I think that's definitely doable um but we'll see okay

so like um just to wrap up like you know if I'm just a regular person who's not as into stuff as you and I like we're kind of like three things I should do to not get left behind by AI or just like actually like consume High signal sources and actually like make use of my time well I mean like you're kind of lobing me a softball here you gota you got to listen to my podcast Ai and I and you should read everything that we publish on every I think those are two hopefully good resources but I think the broader thing actually goes back to the thing I said earlier at the very beginning where you ask me like what's the common threat of people interview and it's like it's people who are literally just curious about this stuff and so um I think the beauty of um chat gbt and Claude but like really chat gbt right now cuz it's like free to use the like Frontier Model is like anyone can go use it you don't have to pay any money to like use the best model available and I think that's truly incredible and so just literally going and being like hey like how do I use you is a great start and like say this is the kind of person I am these are the kinds of tasks I do like interview me to help me figure out like where I can use chat gbt like you don't need necessarily to like read anything although you can and I think it's helpful to like know use cases and know how other people are using it but like you can just go and sit with it and spend some time with it and play around and I think like cultivating that Spirit of curiosity and playfulness is like the thing that's going to like make the difference rather than anyone particular like skill or resource makes sense yeah my parents were asking me like hey how do I use chat GPT then just like hey just talk to it like you would talk to a person yeah that's how you use it it's not that you know it's great it's the first time in history that's happened it's so cool all right so uh I think you mentioned some of this already but yeah like where can people find your stuff online you can find me on Twitter Dan shipper or X these days Dan shipper and then on every every. I write there every week about Ai and then you can find my show Ai and I on YouTube Spotify or apple podcast wherever you get your podcasts awesome D thanks so much for your time this morning yeah of course thanks for having me