AI Hacks from a 3x Founder to Scale Your Business and Life | Siqi Chen (Runway)

when you and I pass away like we can literally like upload a bunch of stuff that we produced online into an AI and then maybe our kids can still have us around I don't think we will pass away so you no well tell me more about that what do you mean we don't pass away like the human body pass I think AGI was is within 5 years and if AGI Asi is definitely within 10 and if we get ASI then we solve death or it kills everybody that's it I don't understand like why does like a controversial like if this happens then this happens this will happen like so it's just weird that is like a controversial opinion so you think there would be like a the human body will still pass away right or so you do like a robot version of us I don't know but it can be that or it can be the human body will like not pass away you just have like these Nanobots in your bloodstream constantly fixing everything all the time all right well today my

guest is CI Chen co-founder and CEO of Runway a breakout Finance plat form for startups and businesses C is also an incredible builder of AI tools welcome C thank you thanks for having me so why don't we start by talking about your

startup Journey you know you're like a three times founder and I think four times CEO you know having had all this experience what do you now really believe truly matters when building a company and what are some things that seem to matter but doesn't actually matter I think the number one thing that I didn't appreciate the first couple of times around is how valuable experience actually is when you are first turning out you value what you don't have and when you're younger you don't have a lot of experience you're like experience doesn't really matter I think experience has helped quite a bit the third time around and in particular the thing that experience has given me is good expectations and what I mean by that is like one of the hardest things about doing a startup is the amb it of not knowing how long it's going to take and how hard it's going to be but somehow expecting it just to be really hard it makes it not as quite as hard anymore and it helps you keep going so some combination of experience and expectations and having to write expectations is really important and helpful and then the other two bits Beyond expectations is this tension between the longterm and the short term so you have this Vision when you start a company of this what the world could be and the Art of operating a startup is how do you bridge that vision and what you have today and get there step by step and you can't just like always go directly there and that requires confronting reality and talking to customers and building momentum that you can reach it and that's very much an art there are no right answers and maybe the third thing is probably the thing that matters more than anything is self-awareness and it's almost topological in that like you can't be aware of your what you're aware of and this is why like talking to other people and confronting and testing reality becomes really important so I would say roughly those are the three things or like you know what the product is doing or yeah I think it's yes and I think it's like a deeper thing than that because like one of the things I seen mean and learn is that really the performance of the company is CT by you as a founder and if you are not aware of the things that you are good and bad at and if you aren't able to quickly learn by confronting reality the performance of the company is capped and so the more you can be self-aware the more you unlock in terms of what the company could do so it's not just Qui product got it so you know what one of the ways that maybe you can you know every company I think is kind of has the culture or the values of the founder right and I was looking at Runway the other day and I I really like your values especially the value of give a

[ __ ] I don't think anyone else has included a swear word or like a bad word in their value but anyway like do you mind walking through the four values and kind of like why it matter to you yeah you know what's interesting is that we actually recently refreshed our values and these are the new ones we started with different values that most it came for me but what I love about the current set of values we have is that when we refreshed them we really thought about what are people already say in the team because we didn't want to come with a set of values where I'm saying it I care about it but no one else is and there was like not 100% but there was like a lot of that going on with our previous set of values and so give a [ __ ] is I love especially because that is a word that people were already using to describe how other people felt in the company it's like wow like everyone seems you really give a [ __ ] and what I love about that is like it's almost Indescribable it's like you either have it or you don't and I really feel like there are you can categorize people in these two categories like people who actually give a [ __ ] about their work and what they do and then for others work is a means to the to an end it's the idea of you know I think the idea of work life balance for FL that economy right where it's like you have work and you have life but like life is Rich you know you have friends and you have family but like a big part of life I think is doing great work and we want to work with people who believe in that kind of thing and when you do when you look at all around you and people all actually give a [ __ ] both about their own work and the Machine Company it's just an Indescribable magical healing of going to work so that's why I love it yeah I really Echo that even though I've only worked at larger companies like you either give a [ __ ] about the product that you're building and the customers or like just people who give a [ __ ] about getting promoted or like how many people they're m managing how big their team is and you can usually classify people into those two separate categories yeah you can tell the difference it matters so let's talk about the other value you have another

value called raise the bar and maybe you can talk about this in context of maybe the web website or something else that you're already proud of from wrong way yeah we need it in a couple of different ways in two different ways to be precise so one is like the idea of the bar being raised continuously so one of the things that Founders often say it's like hiring is really difficult especially early stages and it was difficult for Runway as well and it still is but one of the things that I believe in is like it should always be hard because if it's too easy that means you could hire better people than you otherwise are hiring so this idea that as you're making progress you should be raising the bar is something that s from the Netflix culture deck it talked about how on average companies the average Talent level goes down if you have more people so the only way to make sure that you to have the opposite is make sure that every person you hire is better than the average person you currently have in the company so that's like one very specific image of raising and bar and the other one is like about the work itself and everything that you do we're striving to like push forward the state of the art raise a bar of what could be done and our website is certainly a reflection of that U desire we're not going to always hit it but we try to aim for that and in the ambition of a product too that's also what we're trying to do and I think that's motivating for the right type of person right when it's actually connects to give a [ __ ] like you that's not you can't reach there and it may not be interesting to reach there unless you truly give a [ __ ] got it how do you think about the tradeoff because the website is beautiful it looks like you know it looks like looking out a window at the sky on a flight instead of a boring Business website and but then you can also argue that hey like should we spend so much time on his website should we go back to a core product or like did you believe that doing this website would get you more Lee or you just want to do it because it it's like you want to put on another shitty Business website like what was the main reason yeah I think like with business I think what makes it good is what makes a business good is when you can do both when it's an intersection like doing great work and having some kind of business purpose building something people want and in the case with this website I believe marketing is a core part of what a business does you have you can't just build a great product you have to communicate that you know Apple famously is like very good at understanding this and so I don't think of it as a tradeoff I like this is like part of the work that we have to do and if we're going to do something it should be really great got it and it did have an impact right like I think it brought a top leads is it still bringing a top leads or it is really it's helped with hiring as well it's helped with awareness but yeah when we released it we did no real promotion I literally had a tweet it says like new website funeral RS check it out it was like five words wi website and they haven't seen anything quite like that before and that shows you the value of like doing something new and thriving to push the bar forward to a point where it hasn't been breaked before I think like one of my favorite quotes is from pen and Teller like this magician do all and Teller is the one who doesn't speak but when you hear him speak um he describes magic as spending more time on a trick than anyone could possibly think would be worth it and like that's what's required I think and when you do it when you do something well really well the difference isn't like 10% better 20% better in our case was like 100x better in terms of the business outcome right because like it just got so much distribution so I think that is like our particular style of operating I think putting the 10% final touches and polish it's kind of rare so when people do it like people are attracted to it and like you know yeah I mean if you look at Apple as a company right they do so many things right but like one of the like ways of looking at their success is they basically Arbitrage the value of design right what they've seen is like what they've proved is that design is just deeply undervalued in basically all of the other companies and that's why they invest so much in it and they're now the world to valuable company right so to that you also have I was watching your videos and somewhere you me that Runway would never be more than 100 people or something and I think that ties back to you know your uses of AI maybe you can talk a bit more about that like how you promoting this AI culture at the company yeah so that comes from this idea so that you know may change but like we say that a lot internally we're right now just under 50 people but it was said because we are operating in a really interesting time it's a it's

the most interesting time to be a founder and starting something new because we are live in a time where instead of scaling with headcount you can scale with the increasing leverage of AI and right now we're at 50 we don't know we're going to be a 100 but before we get there we think like the amount of Leverage that we can get from AI will allow 100 people to do the work of a thousand and by that time maybe like it'll do work of like a 100,000 and so we really want to very intentionally like have ai culture where you know we have ai Channel we for AI tools we build AI tools I lead by example by building AI tools for operations and go to marketing that we actually do use and we also like spend a lot of time looking at what's out there what is the state of AR froms the AI tools that you can buy and we will use those things but if it doesn't exist we will build them inter internally so one of the things that I think we've talked about at least is this idea of the aist strr where we have a lot of in down leads and we have like an automation that was built with no code to qualify all of them and now there's products that do that but we built this like you know a year and a half ago or so maybe like talk a little bit more about that like how does that work yeah so right now if you go to runway. com actually that's not let I think we SED it out for default which is one of my investments but now we there's a tool to do this and have better workflows but I think the zap here is still running but anyway what happened is when we launch our website we were getting so many inbound leads people fly on the form and we needed to qualify them and to qualify them we need to have like a one or two people on go through to lead and like figure out who they are and figure out we're qualified Reach Out gra an email right and so I thought okay this seems like a doable thing within gp4 capabilities so I went on zap here and I made an automation a zap where an email comes in and we will see if it's a free email account or not if it's free then we'll just throw it away um because we want work emails and then we call clear bit on this email so we can get information about the role the company the size of the company and the market and then now we have more context and then we ask chbt and then another step automation say okay we want companies for are like over 50 full-time employees are growing ideally in Technology based in the US that's considered qualified lead and tell us who it is based on this information and if K says yes then it goes to another step where we say okay here's what we do a Runway we're building a Next Generation Finance platform that makes it easy for companies to understand your business and here's what this company does this company is a pharmaceutical company doing drug research and cancer can you come up with like a really creative like uh line that Mary the two and reference the two draft an email and then put it in my draft crafts folder in Gmail and so when we wake up now in our drafts folder is all of these like pre-re emails all to qualify leads each of them customized and you just press send that's amazing man I haven't used zap here too much I need to use that more but it's cool you can do a lot I think like that's the other thing about AI in general though right like I did this talk for operators Guild last two months ago and basically entire th this is that AI has done more to make software and engineering and Technology leverage accessible to everyone than anything else has happen before and I don't think people really appreciate that right because like you know you need to learn how to write code and Ruby and python or whatever it is but now you can literally just tell it what to do and it'll do it so underutilized today and so much more accessible yeah I feel like especially for people who are not techn right but like do you have any because people are

not techn they probably feel intimidated by all this stuff yeah do you have any advice for them to how to get started with this stuff yeah use shat gbt use perplexity and use it for everything and develop a habit and intuition for this the issue with like I think there's like a couple of things going on here I think the first one is that AI just sounds like complicated right like people are already in tuno off where AI seems like software plus oh my God that's like even more complicated and it's actually not because you don't have to deal with any of that you can just talk to it and equally there's this other interesting thing that I think is affecting this where people underestimate how much Chad VT and llm can do in the sense that we're used to like software not being that smart right so we're used to like you know clicking on some buttons or moving like some things around and if that you don't do it this the right way is going to crash and LMS don't work that way and so like people tend to ask like relatively simple questions but what's like what makes it powerful is you can ask a very vague ambiguous intelligent question and it'll do that thing and I think like that takes time to like get a sense of that intuition so maybe there's like different levels of this like the first level is just like using like propain chat gbt or perplexity and then the second level is like trying to do some sort of zapier integration and then maybe into repet and start like writing code or something yeah I mean you don't I mean you could write the code for you too right that's the wild thing is that if you want to learn anything you don't know how to do anything if you don't understand anything like you can just ask it to teach it to you and if you don't understand what it explain you can ask it can you make it simpler if I can understand it or can you teach me this thing they don't understand right and it can even write the code for you and you can fix the bugs right it's not going to be always right but it's like having a pretty reasonable like expert you know like not the world's best but like good enough where you can get like so much better and ab building these tools and learning anything that you want and it will never judge you right like if I ask my engineer some questions that are too dumb like at some point like you never judge you yeah right and it's completely customizable to you and yours I think the key thing here is like so I try to use AI to build some games and stuff and it did it made happen it buil like pwn or like you know I think it built du hunt for me or something but then it was kind of annoying to like there was some bugs and i' be like hey this isn't quite right sure and then it'll regenerate the whole code for me and I have to past it in again so I think the key step that I didn't do was like actually learn from this stuff you know like actually like hey what is actually going on here can you explain to me what you're doing yeah you can esue that and it will right yeah and you have this like you have this GPD that you built I a while ago it's called Universal primer GPT right yeah is it still being used in like it's actually the number one uh GPT in the education category in the uh chat GPT store oh wow you go right now go to exp for gpts um I think it's approaching A Milli conversations now um but yeah I mean that's basically like that what I describ except you know it's ready to go so the idea behind Universal primer is like there was these things that I wanted to learn about that seemed really complicated like just seemed like fancy like Gates Theory or like godell incomplete serum or like how Cy Filter Works and these things like I kind of vaguely understood but like or like how Transformer worked right like that is something like I have some like knowledge about but like to understand even any of these things there's all of these prerequisites that you don't have for example like if you want to understand how like a Transformer AI works you need to understand like linear algebra on multiplication you understand how recurrent Neal network works like so there's these Concepts that like you should have learn maybe in school that you build up to and then you can understand the really cool thing that's happening right now right and the idea behind Universal primer is take the thing that you want to learn and we're just going to like explain that first in really under easy to understand analogies Like Richard fman saw right give you an intuition for how these pieces fit together first and then we can ask you well the prom basically like will automatically figure out whatever that thing need to learn here the prequit of things you might want to learn like linear algebra or program networks and then it will like test you or ask you like how much do you understand these things and maybe you do you're really good at linear already but you've never in network but you've heard of this thing about only like mildly and it'll fill in the blanks in all your missing Concepts until and it'll do it recursively right so if you don't understand linear algebra then it'll say well do you understand like how to multiply you understand what a matrix is and you're like no then it teach you maybe how to add right like it goes all the way down to stack and then it once you have it you can now understand the higher order thing so the idea is like it is the most efficient way for you to learn something because you can just learn the [ __ ] you don't know and all the explanations are in like really intuitive ways that are like easy to understand and so I think that's why it's like so popular and did you come up with the same completely Yourself by hand or did you use AI to come with this or yeah this is completely by hand okay I mean the way you create a gbt of like you do ask gbt to like you can ask it to make a thing and it'll like try to write a prompt for you but you know prom engineering is still like you know we're not like a asii like you can get more if you're really smart and really good at prompting and this is this connects to what I was talking about in terms of people underestimating what AI can do right like some of the known sort of tricks in terms of increasing a capability include like think step by step like Chen thought reasoning like writing with a tip I like I will tip you $100 if you get this right or like guil cripping it with like oh I'm gonna lose my job you don't do a good job like I threw everything in there and like you repeat things and you put things in all caps and you be very specific yeah and you're basically like jeweling this like almost like autistic intern who knows so much but is going to follow your instructions kind of yeah and if you can like tweak it just the right way you can build something really powerful yeah it's like a it's like a entry level intern that knows everything about the world for some reason knows everything right yeah what are some other ways

that you be using AI your daily life like has kind of really improved your life in some way in myy life is mostly at work so I built so this is something that I buil but I want it to make it better and this is like a request for startup I haven't seen anyone do this but like I use an app called sandbox. com and what it does is like it filters your email and the way it does it is like when you can add a label and when you add a label it'll categorize future emails that are kind of like from that same sender category to that same label and so it's really efficient way of categorizing your emails automatically so what I wanted to build is a AI version of the ad where instead of like saying like from the sender put into newsletter I want to say like if it's a really interesting smart newsletter put it in this category but if it's like super if it's like something about my family just label it family right so like these AI filters in natural language and so I built that in the form of a giant prompt the thing that I haven't done yet and some my to-do list is like you want to be able to train it you want it to learn so when it gets a label wrong if I apply a different label then it'll know oh next time en knows that are kind of like this should go this label instead of that label and that requires you I think you can like if you're really motivated to do it you can probably make it work with a zapier you can like store it in a vector database and retrieve it and like do something Fancy with it but at that point it's probably like worth just writing the code and no one's like built that product yet I'm still surprised by that so right now you're just using a long prompt the hook up to Gmail to do this or yeah I am it's a really long prompt your email comes in extremely long prompt I think I published online in the slide it somewhere with the zap here team and it just describes all the possible labels and what the emails should be to apply that label and then the automation actually appli the label and you're just using like open API just like Ping by to token or something is that yeah it's a very expensive automation it's a I use vp4 on all my emails so okay it's but it's still cheaper than like you know having an admin read through every email and categorize it so yeah I think that's pretty useful like just give me a ballpark like how expensive is it per day is like less than 100 bucks or is it oh it's per day yeah um but yeah I mean with between all of our apps we're like paying like probably close to 10K at this point okay but yeah it's still cheaper than hiring like a ft I think yeah okay let's let me just ask you one more question about AI do you have like do you have kids with something or do yeah I have a 9-year-old and a four-year-old okay I just think it's crazy both the kids and also the older people right like

when you and I pass away like We can literally like upload a bunch of stuff that we produce online into an AI and then maybe our kids can still have us around or like the virtual reolution of us I don't think we will pass away so you no well tell me more with that what do you mean we won't pass away like the human body pass away I think AGI was is within 5 years and if AGI is with 5 years and Asi is definitely within 10 if we get ASI then we solve death or it kills everybody got it I mean I don't understand like why does like a controversial like it just seems like pretty like if this happens then this happen this will happen like I don't yeah so it's just weird that is like a controversial opinion so you think there would be like a because the human body will still pass away right or so you do like a robot version of us or maybe um I don't know but it can be that or human body will like not pass away you just yeah have like these Nanobots in your bloodstream constantly fixing everything all the time that that's true we still have a good like 34 years left so maybe given how fast things are advancing right if it's not 10 years then you didn't like if you get it out to 40 50 years like and like you don't have 40 years left right like I'm 40 now but like in 10 years you know then it should be 90 right in 20 years it be 100 so you have like an ever increasing amount of time so like even if you don't quite get there like to Infinity you get if you get think you're going to get 100 well that's 100 years to get to Infinity which is why you're going to get infinity anyway that's true yeah okay now you made me very optimistic I do want to live for forever what about for the kids like are

your kids how do you encourage your kids to learn from AI or like use AI because like the classroom environment is so Antiquity you know it's like how you yeah I tried my main thing was to have them form a habit of using chy PT okay and they've done some really wonderful interesting things so we were with a family on a vacation in Japan and when they saw gunam like the big satue first time and then with my 9-year-old they decided they wanted to build a video game that is a cross between gundown and Transformers and they call it transom and they asked shbt like okay like give me some art what does that look like ohes this look so cool all right how do I make a game and what are the rules of this game and then it said like download a real engine so they they know what do we do and so they're like working on this game I mean it's the same thing when I was a kid in a different way right like when we were kids like Google was a thing and Wikipedia you got to learn a lot that other people couldn't I think this is like that except like just way better way more customized and way smarter yeah when I was in college there was a I had a classmate who didn't go to any class and he just like read a Wikipedia all day and I think he's actually way smarter than me now so maybe that's the future where the kids like the best way to learn is to like learn by yourself right explore your curiosity yeah I think the thing that you were curious about will lead you to good direction the things that you want to learn even you know as procrastination like even if nobody was paying you for it that's what ends up making you valuable I think that's highly sure so let's talk a little bit about kind of tangent like so I think like the you know there's like Asian stereotypical tiger parent right or like really wants you to I don't know choose a safe career path and I think how do you I guess what I'm trying to ask is like how do you get your kids not be RIS averse like cuz you know a lot of my Asian friends are like doctors are like you know the same path right like how do you encourage them to be more a little bit more ambitious to be comfortable with failure or like maybe talk about your own up upbring what led you to you know start three companies that's a tough question yeah I think with the second one I don't know what led to it I had a interesting childhood where every four years between zero and 16 I would rotate between China and United States MH and I think like not having a sense of like identity with like a particular group or country kind of disassociates you in some ways and like you can like step outside of like Society almost and I think like that kind of experience probably for me at least was formative in terms of like oh I can like I want to do something different and I can do something different I also been interested in like people like Bill Gates like entrepreneurs like people who have done really interesting things and one of the thoughts I had really young was this idea of Leverage I was thinking about like why different roles get paid very differently get valued really differently in the world and I have the framework of okay imagine like you're a person digging a hole you're getting paid for digging the hole right and when you stop digging the hole you're no longer getting paid because the hole isn't getting larger so that's how you get paid but imagine like a person who can build a machine that digs holes the holes are being digg even if you're not there so that's worth more and you can get paid just by sleeping and then if you take a step beyond that it's like well the most complicated things require more than one person to build so if you can coordinate grus of people who can build things then that's becomes like even more order magnitude more valuable and that's like how I made like a different level of impact have make sense and I was like I want to climb this ladder which is why I got into engineering and then I wanted to be a Founder so that's my own upbringing I don't know what led me to it but that's what I thought about it and then maybe like once you have a few successes like you know the social game stuff that you did then you have more confidence yourself to keep doing this yeah I think that's part of it I do think like around sort of the college time I just really got into like product and design I think what with Steve Jobs went back to Apple and it started with the iPod right but like wow like you can build good products and like good products me feel a certain thing and people value that and I was like wow I want to build good products too so I think it was mostly about that got it having the right role models and stuff yeah I guess just two more questions like you talk about diing a hole right so like what happens if you have a company bunch of people digging a hole

with you and you're just not striking gold is like you know I think it was the first three years of Runway right where like you had to Pivot like how do you keep yourself and other people motivated to keep doing this keep taking the ho without the reward yeah well you have to have a really good reason to dig the hole you know if you do it for oh well I want to make a bunch of money or I want to be well known those are like you know probably like reasons within every founder if they be honest like that's motivations but like that's the majority reason you're just not going to make it you know you have to like believe in something bigger the thing that we believe in Runway is that this is super impactful and is such an untap opportunity to make the business itself to make Finance understandable and it's possible to do like those are the two things right it's possible to make this better and we can do it and it's important to do like that gets me up and gets everyone else waking up in the morning but at some point we need evidence of they working so we didn't have evidence of that until like fairly recently and you know it was about two and a half three-ish years before we had like meaningful evidence that this would be been possible so what happens in between and I think for people on the team they're not all going to make it that's the key thing I learned from Dylan who's one of our investors St from figma and when early on in the life cycle of Runway we invited him to do a lunch Al learn and I asked him what is the most surprising thing between starting figma and where it's today and he said was surprised me the most is how few people made it all the way and I was like okay but the more I thought about it the more I think that's just the most incredible answer because what he's saying is in the early days of figu he an amazing team and for a while it wasn't working with any fraction and half the people on that team left and left right and said we're not going to make it but empirically what they're working on turned out to be one of the most successful private outcomes of all time in a history of man cop so what that tells you is just because things are slow you don't have evidence of it does not necessarily correlate or mean that it's going to work or not work it is kind of the norm and so if you believe if you so when is the right place to stop or start like the right places to stop is we no longer believe yeah but if you can believe and you do believe then you keep going that's actually really good because like a lot of these AI startups they see that they see evidence right away right they cough but then you know or like be real or something like one these startups like just comes and goes but I guess what you're saying is you have to believe in the actual mission of the company right yeah I mean the opposite is also true in the sense that like you can have you can build something really easily get a lot of traction but if you don't believe in something deeper or bigger then you don't have a retentive product you don't keep going and then you have like things like the you know the early wave generative AI outs or like or printing money and then like it just fell off that happens a lot in AI that probably is like there's an opposite problem there how do you not build something that is just transient for a couple of months but has real stating power but I think it's also important to like have that belief but also be able to adjust based on the feedback like you know like some of the AI wearables like if you only believe and you just spend three years doing it without the feedback it doesn't necessarily work out right like maybe just talk a little bit about the pivot that you made out wrong way yeah I mean so my framework is this it's

like you want to trust your intuition at a very deep level and certainly Humane and other companies have done that that's a good thing and so I wouldn't say like you want to doubt your Intuition or you want to like change your vision I think they're just separate things I think like there's the vision and where you want the world to go and what you can see and all the intuition and all the things are real and that's fine but what you want to be very flexible on is how you get there cuz like you can't go straight there most of the time you have to start with something really small and really humble and learn from customers on what you need to build momentum to get there what people say what customers say when Busters say should not actually impact your vision in my opinion and I think that's like the difference of opinion I have it's like if you believe in something and the reason why you're doing it you shouldn't change that it's okay to not change that but it is not okay to like not learn how to best get there got it yeah because you don't survive enough to get there right you don't survive long enough they get there yeah got it all right why don't we close by talking about wrongway I don't have a ton of experience but you know whenever I do have experience making spreadsheets and forecast and stuff and

something pretty dumb is like you know like the more assumptions you make in a spreadsheet sometimes the more [ __ ] it becomes right so talk about how Runway you know maybe ties this stuff to business context yeah so two thoughts here so the thing that you said about the more assumptions in a model the more [ __ ] it becomes right like there's to too much detail already M I think that is to some extent true I think the Nuance there is one like it is a tool for thought right it's useful to do the exercise of thinking about what are the drivers of the business right like the plan is useless but the process of planning famously is quite useful and a model does serve that purpose the other thing though is that when you're not on a spreadsheet when you something like Runway or another Finance platform one of the key things that is valuable is connecting to your actual data and so when I've operated sandbox what I was able to do every month is say okay here's what I thought was going to happen across all these different inputs here's what actually happened and then I can refine the model and refine my thinking how to business works and so that process of evolution happens over time and I would argue it's like probably a little bit more friction to happen just on the sprad sheeet if you're not connecting to real data and actualize a model over time so I think there's truth to that but I think the other the bigger the most important piece of value that we're trying to create a Runway is this idea of understanding so right now you have a model and when you're a small company it's fine and with a small company the financing just understand it and the founder can maybe understand it but as you get larger less and less people as a percentage basis understand how the company Works how the business Works what the plans are what the impact of those things are and if you want the team to move fast they have to collaborate and have to be aligned and what enables that is context is understanding right like they need to understand how the business works so where the plans are going and what people do is they just share information right they maybe and most people don't even do this but you know maybe they share the model data but like all of the context in the world won't matter if people don't understand what they're looking at and that's a hard this problem it's like if we can build something where you can look at it an engineer or designer of PM can say this is how the business works I get it and this is how I fit in we can like make the business better I think it really has a huge impact both on the output of the business and in people's ability to F fulfillment and purpose and make an impact on it yeah that makes sense because whenever I get especially from the finance department it's like you know there's no understanding at all like you know I the only person who understands how a model works is the one person Nam it in first place seems like a pretty big opportunity if you can fix it got it awesome so where can people check out Runway runway. com we're still in Early Access so you can sign up now but we will be launching General availability very soon that said you know we have very significant companies easy in today including superhuman and Angel list and lob and Lambda bunch of other companies a awesome well thanks so much S I learned a lot from this conversation thank you awesome that