There Are Two Types Of Filmmakers - Shaked Berenson

Can you talk about the difference between  an entrepreneur filmmaker and a work for   hire filmmaker? It's funny Jonathan Wolf I I  you know he uh used to run the American Film   Market [AFM] for about three decades.   He was always say that there is two types   of [snorts] producers, right? There is the  the producers that they come from distribution   and they make content because they need for  distribution and then they have the people   that make movies because they want to make  movies and then they need to find distribution   and usually the the former do better than the  latter, right? Um but in terms of like the the   entrepreneur uh producer, uh it's something of  kind of a dying breed. Uh we used to do that.    Um that's how the industry worked is that you you  know you gather five, six, $10 million whatever it   is you make a film and then you go to can and and  uh you take it to market and you sell territory by   territory and you kind of make your profit like  that. But uh since a lot of the foreign markets   um kind of died you know um with the you know  the death of the DVD really um that model is   kind of doesn't exist anymore you know it's really  a game of very high uh budget films that have   pre-sellable cast but you know anybody would say  like hey just make a movie now for 6 million and   hope to sell it. It's like, oof, that's that's  not a business model anymore, you know, that's   too tough. Uh, and the streaming world took the  models from TV, which is I will greenlight it. I   will pay you to make it. Um, you'll get a fee, but  basically that's going to be it. You know,   that's how, you know, we made back in the day the  movies for Sci-Fi Channel. Um, or, you know, the   Lifetime uh movies or, you know, basically get a  fee and you kind of need to baked in or to get   your fee within the budget. But then what is your  um motivation to kind of give it the extra mile,   right? Because you're not gonna get more. You  don't have reporting or you know there's always   the fight about what residuals you can get if the  movie does better on a Netflix or streaming   service. So, I still think um it's complicated  because when you make a film, when somebody gives   you a budget to make a film and you make the film  for them and you're not going to have ownership,   any upside. The question  is how much money you spend, right? Uh and the   answer is always there is only there's only one  right answer, right? It's as less as possible,   right? I mean, you really should spend  as less as possible to get the next gig,   right? Because every dollar more that you  spend is for what? Your ego or I don't know,   it's not really as a business, right? As  a part of the business model. And I think that   was a bit of the demise of some of those channels  like the sci-fi channel that it was a battle for   uh less and less quality because they used to  give a million x um and people spend less and   less so they got less revenue because you know the  movies were not as good um so they gave filmmakers   less and then the quality went even more down  and then you know I think that's kind of how   we end up with a lot of uh unscripted you  know between that and the writer strike.    Um so a lot of those channels um kind of end up  just doing kind of reality and this other type   of content. But you know companies like uh like  when we started we used to do all this like sci-fi   channel originals you know and there's a lot of  mouth that used to be fed by making those made   for TV films. Well I've heard you say in other  interviews the term the artreneur entrepreneur   okay producer. And so it sounds like that's not  feasible anymore. Maybe that was a dream of a lot   of people. I think it's some people try to  cl to cling to that model. Um I'm not doing that,   you know, for sure. You know, that's how we we  used to make, make Big   Spider and, you know, Turbo Kid and all those.   I think today you really need to come in   with a plan. know where  the movie is going to go. Um how much money are   you going to be making? I think the whole like  let's just make it and hope to get to a festival   picked up and hope that you know  there's not going to be a recession and hope you   know it's like you know okay just fill up lottery  ticket at that point you know I think you much   more need to treat this as a business these days  um if you're in the business of making money now I   think that's one thing that a lot of um you know I  spend time in festivals and conferences and and   online And sometimes filmmakers um or inspiring  filmmakers complain about the distribution and all   of this and all that, but you sometimes need to  be reminded like it's okay to have a hobby or to   like spend money on something you want to do. Um  you don't have necessarily to do it for money,

right? Um and if you want to do it for money,  then you need to treat it like a business,   you know? But you can kind of come in both ways,  right? A lot of people kind of, you know, want to   treat it like it's a hobby on the first, you  know, step one to five, but then complain from   step six to 10 that, you know, somebody's screwing  them or there's gatekeepers or all sort of,   you know, kind of buzzwords you hear on uh  social media, which a lot of them are not really   true. When I sold my previous company, I started  this organization called um the free clinic. It   was right uh before COVID and CO kind of killed it  because it was an in-person event. Uh and we used   to have all these executives meeting once a month.   Uh basically would take a corner in a coffee shop   and people will sign up and they would come and  ask for advice or you know show their contract or   the reports. Um and a lot you know and we thought  like okay we're going to help people with their   career and you know maybe weed out some of the you  know predatory you know distributors and you   find that a lot of time it's the filmmakers  themselves kind of shooting themselves in the   foot you know um a lot because of getting excited  about working with the company. So, um, you know,   when company X comes and, you know, we're just  so excited, they just want to work with them,   they will take any deal, you know, and then a year  later they be like, well, my deal is shitty. It's   like, well, remember that you said you don't care  about it. If you're going to sleep as a devil,   you know, you, you know, you're going to get  hurt, but, you know, don't complain about it   later. And you find out that a lot of these  times it's yeah it's unrealistic expectation or   um people excited to get in bed with the  wrong people for the wrong reasons and some   of its companies exercising leverage which might  be not nice uh but it's definitely not illegal or   predatory or you know in terms of ethics. I mean  that's a whole conversation but you know maybe you   can say it's a little bit unethical but you know  if you Netflix you set up the price period you   know so it's like what do you want to do you know  um I don't know if I answered your question no you   did there's so many great points do you think then  the filmmakers are so excited that someone wants   to take their film that they don't do their due  diligence they're not researching they don't go   in with an attorney to look at the contract and  then they realize oh wait I'm signing away stuff   in perpetuity I'm not really being careful I think  it's a lot of getting bad advice. It's funny. I I   uh I read it in a comment on social media. So,  I find it funny because it was about social media,   but I think somebody asked a question and I read  it somebody wrote, "Finding filmmaking advice on   social media is like looking for an architect at  the parking lot of Home Depot. " And it's it's   so true. It's like people, you know, people give  advice and have websites and everything because   they made half a movie that had half a success and  they treat like they know everything and people   spreading all this advice based on their own,  you know, experience which is minimal, you know,   and I think, you know, I don't know if  lawyers is the answer. Um I think talking with   executives and also it's almost like apply basic  logic you know I always tell people like you just   need to ask a question of a 5-year-old just apply  like keep it simple stupid you know I mean if you   look at ask and take list and the ask  is 5 million and the take is a million and your   movie cost 200 to make you know a lot of  people like oh so on average we're going to make   you know, $3 million. Like, ask yourself, are you  are you expecting what is your expectation? Like,   are you expecting to sell all the territories?   Like, how many of those territories are you   going to sell? Like, how close are you going to  be to the takes or to the ask, you know? And what   you find is a lot of people and I don't lawyers do  it because you mentioned lawyers. But, um I used   to give a lecture at USC for a friend of mine  used to guest speak about uh my lecture was called   the four things your law negotiating matter. One  of them is was the ask and take this because I   find that a lot of filmmakers think that if you  have an ask and a take about the middle ground   is going to be how much money you're going to be  made. But it's like that is so far from the truth.    You know the ask and take have like all these  prices for countries. You're going to sell two   or three territories. If you take is a million  dollar you probably going to maybe make 300. And I   find that looking at um a lot of reports for you  know thousands of movies that if you want to put   the thumb like a thumb rule on it I would say a  quarter to a third of your takes is the actual the   actual sales that the film makes on average. Okay.   So when you're looking at a distribution contract   there's something called an ask and a take. Okay.   So I'm sorry. Do we need to explain that? Yeah.

Would you please? Yeah. an ask and take like I'm  a 5-year-old by the way. So, so uh mommy made a   movie. Okay, great. Thank you. But uh  an ask and takes list is something that you use in   sales agreement with your sales agent. It's a list  that basically spells every territory and what is   the all rights ask and what is the all right  take. The ask is how much money we're going to   ask somebody and the take is uh what we're willing  to take usually without the producers's approval.    So if it's below that number, you can still, you  know, email the producers or uh call them and and   try to get, you know, try to approve the deal.   But usually when you go to a market like Ken or   Meipcom or FM or whatever it is, if it's above the  take, you're allowed to just close the deal. Few   problem with that. First of all, uh the ask really  doesn't matter, right? Because as a professional,   I sit in the room. If RTL2 from Germany, you  know, comes in, I'm not going to ask them the   same number that I'm gonna ask on some, you know,  wannabe DVD label. That's, you know, it's it's   just not the same numbers. You know, I'm not going  to undercut myself uh from a deal because, you   know, the number is low, but RTL2 is interested,  you know, and they buy movies for €200,000 for,   you know, just a three-year license. I'm going  to ask them for 50 just because it's there on the   sheet. and the other way around. I'm  not going to ask like you know if I'm trying to   get offers I'm not going to scare somebody from a  big number. So the ask is kind of silly as it is.    The take is interesting because you kind of want  to set expectation, right? But there is so many   other factors that go into it that uh usually the  lawyers and the filmmakers don't really ask about   or like the take is usually for all rights, right?   So it's like, well, what if I'm just selling,   you know, TV and VOD, you know, of course, because  the movie is an indie film, it's not theatrical   and there's no home video market anyway. So now  are you allowed to do it? So now you spelling that   in the agreement, you know, I think it's important  of expectation. uh in our company we don't do ask   and take list because again I think it's a it's  kind of a waste of uh of time and it's actually   confuses the filmmakers more than explaining them.   We do talk about what's the expectation um before   each market. So you're not going to have the same  list on the first market as you're going to have   3 years later, you know, which is a lot of what  those agreement kind of, you know, they just have   a list. And you know, if a movie's been around for  a year, you're not going to sell for those prices,   you know. Um, so that's like uh about ask and take  list for interesting in uh in 3 minutes. Okay. So,   if I have an old classic car that I want to sell  and I want to say, well, then my ask is 10,000,   but I'm willing to take 7500. Why would I want to  reveal my cards like that? Is that's because you   don't you don't want to have to be calling the  filmmaker? Well, that lease is between the   filmmaker and the sales agent. Uh, okay. So, it's  never revealed to the potential buyer. Um, not in   general. you know sometimes with relationships  and you know maybe it's a good tactic to go like   hey you know here's my take just give me that  number and let's close you know that could be   a good trick to do it I mean you can also change  a number that's the problem with the ask and take   list that it's just an excel sheet you know it's  like you can change you can add a zero it takes a   second right and a lot of people make their entire  decisions based on that and when you look at those   ask and take lists um because we do you know part  of the entertainment free clinic we were looking   at a lot of ask and take list and you go like  look like you know forget about being a lawyer or,   you know, just look at this list and tell me  if it makes sense. You have a million dollar   in China. Okay. Your movie is a lesbian movie with  drugs, you know, and violence and who knows what,   you know, do you really think it's going  to pass censorship in China? So, like,   why is the number there, you know? So, and  you hear filmmakers, they choose company B over   company A because company B had $10 million in  ask and takes. It's like they're more excited and   they value my movie better. It's like, no, they're  just blinding you with empty promises, you know,   or like you look like, wait a minute, so I have 50  grand in Germany and I have 50 grand in Portugal.    Do you know the difference between the German  and the Portuguese, you know, economy? You know,   did you look at those? Like, does that make  any sense to you? So, obviously, this company   never really sells Portugal, so they just put  a big number so the bottom line becomes bigger.    Um so there's all these tricks with this ask and  take list to really kind of blind and confuse the   filmmakers. Um, you know, in a lot of time, um,  um, Clay Epstein, uh, from Filmo, they always say   like the first sales agent is honest, pay the  price, and the second one gets a deal because when   you go like, look, you know, you have a horror  movie. I looked at it, it's low budget, it's going   to sell Germany, UK, maybe Japan, like, you know,  you're going to squeeze 60 grand out of this the   most. Then they don't take this guy because it's  like, well, they're not believing my movie. and   they take the company, they tell him like, "Ah,  we're gonna do a big party at AFM and, you know,   and all of that. " And then, you know, a year  a year later, you know, kind of like, well, he was

right, you know, it's a lowbudget horror  movie with nobody in it, whatever. You know,   the economics, I'm just kind of coming up with  something. But, um, so you kind of need to be   realistic about it. And a lot of times it's like  I remember like um I was a very young executive   uh at the American film market and filmmaker came  in. He was trying to sell me a short film and and   I very like namely said like okay so you make  short films like yes like so when was the last   time you bought a DVD with like a collection of  short films like I never done it. It's like okay   when was the last time you bought a ticket to the  cinema uh and like sat there with like watching   you know you paid for it and watch short films.   Oh it doesn't happen. Okay. Did you ever watch   TV and there was like short films and you saw  commercials? Like no. So like so you're a short   filmmaker and you know how old [clears throat]  are you? 40. In 40 years you generated zero   sense to short films. So why do you think there is  money to be made with that? I mean like how rare   of a you know yes if it's nominated for an Oscar  whatever I don't know like people make money from   adaptations or what thing but in general you know  short films are just calling cards you know. So,   of course, you know, YouTube came in and other  places to monetize them, but you know, back,   this was 2008, it's like, you know, it's like,  where would you put it? You know what I mean? Uh,   you know, an airline buys four of them because  they nominate for an airline for Oscar and they   put him on the airline, you know, and also then  nobody sees them. So, you know, so, so the sort   of the notion of becoming the next Kevin Smith or  Tarantino that came and went and even those   filmmakers now they're based it's all based on  a new model and it's not about necessarily just   doing the piece you want to do. You've got  to look at the economics of it. I think um I think that the the models that created Kevin  Smith or Tarantino is on one hand doesn't exist on   the other hand best time ever to do that because  when you were young Quinny Tarantino you still had   to get film wheels and a film camera and  you know even if you don't do anything just   to get that material and get it developed, you  know, you actually used to use chemicals and all   that kind of stuff. There was a barrier to entry  that you need whatever it is a million dollar just   to walk into a set, right? Today you can make  on your iPhone and make with Sora VFX that   looks better than Avengers. So I would argue  and say that both in term of the technology to   make the content if you're talented enough and  to get it out on distribution you don't need   anything like if your content is really if you  that talented and you put it on YouTube or put   it on you know Instagram or Tik Tok if it's a  vertical whatever you know things get discovered   by the evil algorithm the evil algorithm that  tell give people what they want to see if you have   something that people want to see it will find you  right or or with a little push to find you and   and like look like uh my friend Orin Pel you know  he created paranormal activity right so he was not   a filmmaker at all right okay I'm thinking so he  he taught himself to shoot edit color you know he   taught himself like as a hobby to do all of  that I mean the house in the car everything is   is his stuff you know in paranormal activity but  it was that damn good so it got discovered and   it is paranormal activity now you know now does  that mean that you know, anything that's great   is going to be discovered. Like I'm sure there  is some great movies somewhere that, you know,   they just never see the light of them. Of course  there is, you know. Um, but in general, I think   that we have so many opportunities to people that  willing to, you know, grab it by the horn. I mean   it's like you know just think about it like you  know I remember like in the beginning of my career   you know it's like working with film and dealing  with like you know how many like people don't   realize how it used to be that you had to have a  big theatrical release in America right because   you need to create thousands of films right now  in the international market it didn't make sense   to make wheels for the international market  so you had to open big in the US, right?    Because the opening was like the most amount of  screens, right? Because then, you know, okay,   we have a thousand screens, a thousand prints, you  know, a hund of them are going to go to Turkey,   you know, 50 Poland.   And there was like labs that you had to send   them to like burn on them. They actually burn  on the film those subtitles. Now, you couldn't   really use them in other countries. So you had  to make all this calculation and like just the   amount organization that now like with a click of  a button we can deliver with 64 cinemas uh that   we have connected digitally that we literally can  put tonight a movie with a click of a button you   know what I mean if it's you know good enough  or if it breaks out or whatever you know so

um I think there was actually more opportunities  to be Tarantino or Kevin Smith today than when   you know Tarantino became Tarantino also to uh  the Blair Witch Project. Same type of things. Uh   but now there's so much that's found footage  that's been done that maybe it's but by the   way there was a Blair Witch project. Mhm. And then  there was Paranormal Activity in between there   was a lot of fun footage stuff you know. Okay.   Um I don't think you know when something is   good you know it breaks out. I remember watching  Paranormal Activity um in a screening in um it   was in Sundance, it was in Slam Dance, right? Like  the ugly sister, whatever you want to call it,   you know. Um across the street, right? Um and  and I remember the silence in the room like,   you know, like people were just looking at the  screen like to find like is the door going to   move? is the window like the tension like  it was just really well made and I think you know   people like to ignore think like there was Blair  Witch and then there was PC there was a million   of fun footage movies in between you know and  there was a million movies later and you know   stories you know a lot of people like oh this  has been done it's like sometimes like oh you   know shark movie been done like maybe it's time  to make you know another version of that or you   know so I think a lot of time people scared like  oh it's very similar to something but it doesn't   mean that you know you cannot bring something  new to it or breathe a new interpretation of it   or you know reinvent it in a way um and I I  really do think like when you see what SAR does   now I mean it's really by the time you know  we publish this interview the technology is   already going to be even further than that and  and you know we use a lot of the technology   you know it's if I look at movies that we  just did a year ago and how much we paid for   every VFX you know then 6 months later it was  you know it was 3,000 a shot then it was 300 a   Now it's like, oh, the director just does it  himself, you know, in his laptop, you know,   and it looks even better than the 3000 shot that  used to have, you know, the retro, you know, the   team doing the retroscoping and this and that.   And it's like computer does it better, you know,   is a bad thing that people lose jobs, you know?   I don't think so. I think it can elevate them to   do higher level jobs and tell more stories,  right? Thank you for watching the video. all the   way to the end. Here is a complimentary  question from our book story questions.