Gregg Owen

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Boss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times cuz you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hey folks, Vos here from the Chris Voss Show. — There you go, ladies and gentlemen. There only sings that makes official. I'm so glad we quit having me sing that 14 years in. for 16 years and 2,800 episodes. We bring you one of the oldest living podcast is still regularly broadcast. I don't think anybody does 48 shows a month like we do. So, we're special. Damn it. I'm just going to stand on that merit. Uh, and ask you, beg you, plead you. I'm on my knees, baby. Just give us some love. Uh, tell your family, friends, and relatives to subscribe to the show. Darn it. Or else, I don't know what that means. Go to goodreads. com. linkedin. com Chrisbos. Chris Fos, one of the tick- tocky, and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings threatening you, but I'm really desperate. Anyway, guys, we have an amazing young man on the show today. He's the author of the book called Convergence out September 17th, 2025 by Jonathan Dixon. And our guest today is Greg Owen, who is also the author on the book, and we're getting into that. Uh Greg Owen, his life has been followed a path that few could have predicted. He began playing professionally at the age of 15, coming of age during the height of the 1960s and 1970s rock era. As a touring musician, he per performed across the United States to clubs, concert halls, eventually joining notable bands including the American Breed whose hit song then me shape me sounds like something we do on Fridays at night. Uh became an international success song and not my Friday nights. For uh years, his life was defined by the road, constant travel, live performances, the energy of a rising music career. At the same time, he was quiet building a second future. While he was continuing to tour, he rolled in law school because that's what every rock and roller does. Uh I made that up. Uh structuring his schedule so he could attend classes and uh in the during the academic year and begin performing for the rest of the time. That dual life let uh continue until pivotal moment, his final semester. So, we'll get into some of the details. And now he's an attorney and a musician. So, let's get into it. Welcome to the show, Greg. How are you? — I'm great. I got to tell you one thing, Chris. You bring back to memories of my youth. Larry Lujack, Steve Dah, Mancow. I mean, you've got all those qualities in one person. It's amazing. I mean, I'm being I'm serious. You really do. It's great. — Are all those people dead? That's probably the commonality. — Uh Larry passed away. Yes. Sorry. — I'm sorry, Larry. I love it, man. But thank you for the compliment. I certainly appreciate it. Uh it's just mainly the caffeine talking really. Uh so, Greg, give us your uh dotcoms. Where do you want people to find you on the interwebs? — Well, let's see. Um my publishing company uh which I started with a couple other people is uh 26th Streetbooks. com. 2x2sreetbooks. com. And the reason is because most of my career I spent at 26 in California in Chicago. — Uh on Instagram I'm Greg Owen 26th. Greg — and I just reached 90,000 followers in 6 months. I'm sort of happy about that. — Congratulations. Share the magic. — I don't take my clothes off. I don't tell jokes. — This sounds like a really boring feed. — I mean I know and that's what I was wondering. I said it's this is so why does somebody watch this stuff? You know, — there's a lot of attorneys online now that giving advice and — and commenting on uh you know, current legal affairs and stuff like that, but you know, if you really want to go big, sell your feet on Only Fans. That's what I'm starting next week. — Ain't nobody subscribing to that. — Well, let me say this about attorneys. I've seen quite a few and I can tell they've never really been in a felony trial court in front of juries. I mean, there are lawyers, but not many of them actually end up in front of a courtroom trying. — Let me ask you this. Are their feet good-looking? — Well, you know what? I've never taken the time to really gaze upon their feet as much as maybe I should have. — Yeah, maybe. Maybe so. But, you know, at least you got your day job. So, there you go. — Yes. — Uh, so let's get into this book. Give us a 30,000 overview. What's inside of it? — Sure. The this the book is called Convergence. And there's a reason why we came up with that title because it's a story of how a number of people their lives and certain events converged on one date and then one trial.

— And it starts out with a man uh who has been looking for his son for two days. His name is Tony Msina. He's a big building contractor in Chicago. This is a true story, by the way. — Hasn't heard from his son in two days. His son, his name is Gio. He's 24 years old. And Tony's concerned because Gio was not like Gio not to call home or not to contact anybody. So we found out that Gio might be at his girlfriend Tinker's house down in the north shore of Chicago. — He drives down there. Uh nobody's answering any buzzers or anything. He gets the superintendent of the building to let him in. — And when they wing, they find both of them dead in big pools of blood. — Murder, you say? — Yeah. And see what's sort of uncanny about this is this. As that man is finding his son brutally murdered in the son's girlfriend, I'm taking the bar exam. — Oh wow. — On the same moment at the same day. — Wow. — And four years later, I would prosecute that case. — Wow. I was going to say, at least you have an alibi. — Well, yeah. I mean, I had plenty of people around me, but but I I was taking the exam and at lunchtime, we took a break, you know, and I went out to get some lunch at a club owner I knew had a place, invited me for lunch, and I heard sirens, a lot of sirens. And lo and behold, Chris, what's even more fascinating is this. I get home from the bar exam, all I'm thinking about is going to LA the next day. my band that I had played in had gotten up record deal with Mercury and they were in the record plan in LA which was a real well-known studio and they were doing an album and I figured why two months before I got the bar results I'm going to go out there and just hang out you know and maybe plan on some songs so that's all I cared about the next morning so as I get home from the bar exam I see a newspaper truck delivering a newspapers — and in the box in the front of the paper box was a headline contractor actress found slain and it interested me but I had no change in my pocket. So I go in the house about an hour later my brother calls. He tells me his friend was murdered in Chicago today. I go what friend? — He tells me the name I don't recognize it. He goes yeah he was murdered with his girlfriend and something I don't know what struck me and I go was your friend a contractor or his dad is was the girl of an actress. Well, the boy that got murdered whose father found him that same day was a friend of my brothers. — Oh, wow. What a small world. — I mean, yeah. I mean, unbelievable. I didn't know him at all. — So, I'm off to LA and get in the studio and lo and behold, we're in the studio at the same time as the Eagles. In fact, we're allowed to use the studio when they're not there. — Wow. — And they were recording Hotel California. They didn't have a name for it. — Wow. — A friend of ours had become the road manager. It was a small world. Chicago. — Did you get to hear it? it at all? Uh, bouncing around. — We only heard we never heard the song. We heard some of the like the drums, other parts, but not the song finished. No, — you guys are like that that's never going to be a single. It's like seven minutes and there's a guitar solo at the end. That's — right. And they had a goofy name at the time. It wasn't called Hotel California. Oh, — okay. — Something else. Yeah. But it became that. But I'm just saying. So I wait around for two months. I get the results. I fly back to Chicago and I'm sworn in as a lawyer and a prosecutor. — Wow. Yeah. You gone from groupies to uh lawyers. — Well, it didn't change all that much. It was still fun. Let me put But I mean, — why did you want to become a lawyer? Let's establish that. — Okay. — Well, because I grew up in an era 60s and 70s and I had a couple bands had some records and we never made a dime. I mean, — yeah, — we signed papers. We didn't know what we were signing. I signed stuff at 17. Nobody, my parents didn't even see it. Wow. — So, by the time um I went through college, I got out of Vietnam because I had a deferment, kept playing, you know, — once I got finished college, what am I going to do now, right? I'm going to get drafted. — Lo and behold, the lottery came around. I had a high number, — so I didn't have to go. So, my friend, the singer, says, "Why don't you take some law classes? We keep getting screwed by lawyers, you know? " I mean, I said, "Are you crazy? " — I thought about it for two weeks. And I said, "Well, we're still putting together American Breeder just broke up. So, we're putting together a new band. — Maybe I'll see what it what that's like. " So, I applied, took a test, and I got in. — First day of school, I told the dean, I said, "Listen, Dean, — I'm in a band. " I had real long hair. Everybody had short, you know, short hair. 1971. — So, I said, "I want to go every other semester. " Because we tour from June till December, but we played more locally or, you know, in the winter months. He let me do it. So I went all through school and never stopped playing the band. — Wow. — And then my last semester I had a woman who just broke my heart. — I mean she I mean it was real tragic. And I was starting to question my own ability. I couldn't I wasn't a singer. So where's your future?

— I didn't want to end up in a piano bar. And that's what I you know. So, I saw a note in a bulletin board in my school that said, "The Cook County States Attorney's Office will be at the law school the next day to interview for law interns. " Something inside me very strongly told me I should do that. I mean, it was sort of — uncaring me because it kept I heard this, you better do it. You better do — Wow. — I called my mother, went home, she got her person to cut her hair to cut my hair. She took me to JC Penney, bought me a suit. The next day I showed up for the interview. That was on a Thursday. The guy says, "Well, fine. We need interns. We're got a lot of crime and not enough people. So, could you start on Monday? So, I show up to this building on Monday. I have no clue. I've never even been in a courtroom. " — And that's how I started. And I walked into this place. It was like I fell out of a space capsule onto a foreign territory or foreign planet — because it was the opposite of anything I'd ever seen. I mean the place was so crowded with people. They were smoking. There was smell of hot dogs and just humid and the judge was on try on a bench. They were doing a case and people were yelling and stuff. Nobody said a word. And I thought to myself, is this what it's all about? Is this why I went to law school? Is this where I'm going to end up? And after two weeks, I loved it. I thoroughly I it was like I was on a stage again, you know? I was — I got comfortable with the setting and I wasn't afraid to talk — and I just adapted myself to it and really loved it. — There you go. It is kind of a stage being an attorney, right? You're up in front of a jury. You got to you know convince them of uh you know you're good you're telling a good story and uh explaining why maybe your client is innocent or not or should be sent to jail, all that stuff. And um yeah, I mean it's kind of like being on stage and then you they decide if they're going to clap for you when they give you their verdict. — Yeah. You know, that's true. As a matter of fact, in my recent I'd never done social media in my life until six, seven months ago. And I thought, well, let me come up with things that were true that were interesting. So, I have a series called the choreography of the courtroom. — It's literally is like a dance. I mean, it's not it's No, it's you don't just walk in and do it if you're good. — I mean, there there's places you stand certain places at certain moments. You put a witness on the witness stand, you have them look a certain way. I mean, and one of the things in law, the only thing that's considered art in law is cross-examination. They call it the art of cross-examination. — And that really cuts the men from the boys, so to speak. — Ah, — because as a defense attorney, that's your that's how you make a living. As a prosecutor, you don't get the opportunity quite as much, but I was fortunate. I had a lot of chances to cross-examine, and that really hones your skills as in the courtroom. — Yeah. — Cross examination. Yeah. — Yeah. There's like a whole art to jury selection, right? — Oh, yeah. — All that stuff. So, tell us about this conversions case. You flesh it out. It's a real story. Um I guess you use the real names and everything since it's real. Okay. And uh Go ahead. — No. So, so what happened was this. So, like I said, I get sworn in I ended up in defending trial courts by the time I got and then I got a call from my brother about three and a half years after that murder took place and I had already tried like 40 murder jury trials. I mean, I was quite experienced after a short period of time. And he said to me, you know, Greg, um, my brother's name is Jay. He said, "Greg, my friend's family is really upset because they say your office is going to drop the charges against this guy that killed their son. " — I said, "That's impossible. It's a double murder. " No. Oh. — So, I looked into it for him. It wasn't at the building that I worked where all murder cases were normally assigned. Then I found out this guy was on bond for four years on a double murder. I mean, who gets a bond? — Who gets a bond on a double murder? — On a double murder. Yeah. — Well, he did. And a low bond. And it all see it all evolves. I mean, I was working at the probably the highest level of corruption that ever existed in any court system that resulted in the largest investigation and criminal trials of more judges that ever occurred in our country. It's called Operation Grey Lord. We were right in the middle of all that. I mean, it was so corrupt. — So, I found out the case has been assigned to a building that never had a murder case. It had been signed to a judge who was very anti-prosecution and a good friend of the defense attorney for this guy. — How do they have a judge that's so anti- prosecution? They do really — they're really they're too liberal or woke or something like what's going on. — Well, he I mean it was just at the time I mean first of all a good amount not every but a few judges weren't on the up and up. Okay. At that — Okay. I mean, there was stuff

going on here. — Slave me an envelope sort of stuff. — Yeah. Vegas. — There was It was so blatant. It was like, "But what could we do about it? " I mean, you don't physically see him handing the money to a from a lawyer to some. No, but it was going on. I mean, we knew — And so, I go over to this other court facility and everybody tells me there, "Oh, Greg, don't touch that case. That case is is doomed. It's got is cursed. " I go, "Why are you people crazy? " — Wow. — You know what they said to me? They said, 'Well, first of all, uh, they're all a bunch of drug addicts. — I'm like, what's that got to do with anything? Here's me coming from a band for 10 years. I'm not going to really get too hung up on a somebody was doing something. — I've been doing coke off of toilets and tour buses for — I'm just saying. I mean, I wasn't that wasn't my mindset to think automatically, who cares? Okay. — And then they said the only witness, they only had one witness who was present for one of the murders and he was taken a fifth because it was a cocaine deal that had gone bad. Very — Wow. — And he was afraid that if he testified and things didn't work out, we'd charge him — with the drugs and stuff. — Okay. — So, it was four years, this is four years later now, and he's he won't even do anything. So, — I looked at this file. I looked at the guy. He was 24 when he committed the murder. extremely wealthy. I mean, ridiculous wealthy. Well-known family — and a business executive, so to speak. And these people that he murdered were his friends. — Wow. — Who murders your friends with a knife? 11in butcher knife. — Well, if they owe you money, I mean — that's a pretty rough way to get paid. You know what I'm saying? I mean, that's an extreme. — I mean, I'm not saying I've ever done that to my friends, but I do live in Vegas, so — I don't know what that means. Oh, here. But the thing was they got nothing. See, when they came upon the crime scene, the police said is after the father got in. Nothing had been taken. There was cocaine there. There was $700 cash. There was a real expensive gold watch. There was — sure wasn't OJ. That sounds like an OJ move right there. — Well, but it was double murder. A woman and a man. So, what can I tell you? — See, I may have solved your case just now. — They were young, though. Yeah. and and so the case was solved pretty quickly uh for a variety of reasons, but what happened the fact that I saw that file — and it just upset me. Here's this guy wealthy and he thinks he's going to walk on a double murder. You know, he's just going to pay off everybody — and I said, man, not this time. No. So, I called my partner, — Mike Gagan, and uh he agreed to take the do the case with me. We had it transferred back to where it belonged. — Mhm. And we went to trial. — Wow. — But getting people to testify was almost impossible. — Really? Wow. — I mean, no, it was four years old. Nobody wanted to be involved. I mean, they just — I mean, first of all, the family of this kid was real well-known, powerful. He had some of the — the finest lawyers in Chicago could ever have. They were some a couple of them were former mob lawyers. — Jimmy Hoffer they represented. — Oh, really? — Sam G and Kana. Some big guys, you know. Yeah. — So, and here's us. My partner, I'm just about just turned 30. My partner's 31. Between us, we had like 10 years of experience. They had like a hundred. He had three lawyers. Three. — Wow. — So, so the book tells about what it took to get those two main witnesses to testify and also how a international drug smuggling ring became pivotal in actually getting a conviction. in this case — was a witness who was a pilot for a big drug cartel. — Mhm. — Who knew the parties and had flown the group to a location shortly before the murder to buy cocaine cuz we could not tie the defendant to the victims. I mean, the witness saw the bad guy, but he never seen him before in his life. He didn't know who he was. It was the first time. So, we couldn't find one person who could even — make it seem like they knew each other. And that's a tough case to bring to a jury — when you got a guy on the stand who's going to have to admit that he was a part of a cocaine deal, number one. — And why didn't he why couldn't he have been the killer, right? I mean, why not? — So, we had to corroborate him. And um the the effort that we put in to try to get this these people to testify and we found this guy. He had crashed a DC6 4ine airliner in a field in Tennessee and it was loaded with seven tons of pot and 100 pounds of cocaine. — That's a rather big crash. — That's Fridays around here. — I mean, so he was arrested by a little town sheriff in Tennessee

and we didn't know anything about him. I mean, I when he got arrested, we don't know we didn't even know anything about him. But what happened is about two months before we're ready to go to trial, I'm going through the our file and a little slip of paper got stuck on something. True story. I pull it out and I'm looking at it and it says Bill Wright- pilot and he gave the name of a flying service in an airport in Chicago called Midway. And as I was looking at that, one of my deputies, one of my investigators walked up. He happened to look over my shoulder and he says, "Oh, I know the guy that owns that flying service. " I go, "Are you kidding me? " We didn't know what it meant. So, we get in the police car. We go to the airport and the guy tells us, "Oh, yeah. I know Billy, right? He used to work for me. " He said he flew uh F4 Phantoms in Vietnam. He's a black guy. And when he got out, he couldn't get a job at the airline. They weren't taking black guys at the time. So, he turned into he became first a charter pilot. He taught flying lessons. And then eventually he got married. He had a child and needed more money. So he became a drug smuggler. He flew planes from Ecuador, Guatemala, Colombia, Venezuela constantly. — And this one, so I said to him, well, he says, well, why do you need Bill? I said, well, we don't know. And I showed him the note. He gets up. He goes, what what's this all about? I go, it was a murder that took place. And he asked me when. — Mhm. — So I said, it was a it was March 1st of 76. He goes, okay. He gets up and he goes through this file drawer. And now when you charter a plane, you have to give the charter people an itinerary like who's in the plane, where you're going, what they how old they are, how much they weigh. — So he pulls out a file for this Bill Wright guy and he finds a slip, an itinerary slip for February 28th, and it shows that Bill Wright flew the two victims and the killer to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, the day before the murders took place. So now we were able to tie him in somehow — with the victims. — Oh wow. — And I said to him, "Where's Bill Ry? " He goes, "Oh, that's going to be a problem. " I'm thinking, "Oh no, the guy's died or something. Why did he" He goes, "No, no, he's not dead. He's getting ready to get life sentenced in Tennessee. " — Oh. — For what? Then he tells me about the plane crash. — Uhhuh. I mean, 1976 being afroamerican or black in Tennessee, crashing a plane with 7,000 tons of pot and 100 pounds of co was not a good idea. — Yeah, that's Yeah. — And eastern Tennessee, too. I mean, that was not a good thing to do. I mean, it really I mean, it was tense. So, I called my partner two days later. We're on a plane to Nashville. We took a charter to this little city, Johnson City, Tennessee. And we walk into the sheriff's office. He goes, "How y'all doing? " I said, "Well, we're doing fine. " He goes, I said, "We're here to see Bill Wright. " I know. Oh, I know that boy we got across the street, that fly boy. I go, "Well, yeah, we need to talk to what's this all about? " So, I came a little rund down. We go across and we walk into this courthouse. Now, it was a shock. We walk in, we go up these stairs to a gallery where you can overlook the court proceedings. And in the middle of the floor was a cage, a real cage. — Wow. — And my partner says, "What's that cage for? " And the deputy says, "Well, that's where we put the defendants. " We're like, "Wow. " — For what? Well, we got a budget problem here. We don't have enough deputies, so we just lock them in there during — I said, "Wait a second. How about when they're on trial? " "Oh, no. When they're on trial, they sit there, too. " I said, "Are you telling me you bring jurors in here and they're looking at a person sitting in a cage? " — Cage. Yeah. — You think that's a little prejuditial? — Yeah. — I mean, I mean, I'm in the south now. See? So we walk a few feet up into the where the jail is — and there sits Bill Wright. The pilot looked like young Denzel Washington — came up to the bars. He looked at me. He goes, "What are you guys with? The FBI or something? " I go, "No, no, no. " Cuz he was looking at federal charges for that much drugs. — Yeah. — So I said, "No. " And I told him who we were. And the guy looked down at his hands and he goes, "I got to tell you something. What's your name again? " I go, "Greg. " He goes, "Greg, I have felt bad for four years that I didn't say something to Gio about what was going on that plane when I flew him to Lake Geneva and he got out to pick up his package. " He said his girlfriend and that guy Mitch were in the back seat and they were making out. — Oh, wow. — The killer was making out with the his the guy's girlfriend. — And he didn't tell he did not tell Gio that cuz he probably didn't want to get in the middle of it. M — and he said probably if I would have said something I might have saved his life if so we went back down. This is this part you like. So we go back down and the sheriff says so what can I can our boy over there help you out? I go oh yes sure I remember this like it was yesterday. He goes well tell me again. I tell him again. He goes well hold on a sec. He takes his you know phone makes a call and he's talking to somebody. He goes yeah and I need to talk to him right now. So somebody gets

on the phone. We can't hear that site. And he says to him, "You know, I before I tell you why I'm not calling, I got a bone to pick with you. " And I we're like, he goes, "You missed that family reunion. My wife made your favorite dish, you know, and you didn't even tell us you weren't coming. You know how bad she felt? Me and my partner saying, "What's going on here, man? " — So then he goes, "Well, here's what we got going. We got that boy across the street with that plane with all. " Yeah. Yeah. He goes, "But you got these two prosecutors Chicago. They're telling me that boy can help them win a double murder case. " Yeah. That's what they're saying. Well, hold on. So, he takes the phone and he goes to give it to my partner who was closest to him. — My partner's going, "Man, I don't know what this is. " So, I'm next guy. So, I take it and I go, "Hello, this is Greg Owen. I'm an assistant states attorney from Cook County, Chicago, Illinois. " He goes, "Well, Greg, I'm the governor of the great state of Tennessee. " — It really was the governor of Tennessee. — That's wild, man. — I ran the case by him. I get done. He goes, "Give give that phone to that nitwit. " He called his cousin. He was a cousin. He was his — Oh, of course. — He was the second or third c. Yeah. You know how it goes. — Yeah. — So, he takes the phone, the guys talk, and then he gives it back to me. He goes, "Okay, Greg, we got this all worked out. " — I'm like, "I don't I don't believe this. " He goes, "Here, we're going to do we're going to lower the charges to a small amount, maybe less than five grams from seven tons. We're going to give him two years. " He's already served nine months. Wow. So, when's your trial? I said, "Well, two months. " He goes, "Well, by the time he gets done with that trial, he'll just about him day for day. He'll be walking free. " And he did. And they flew him up there, put him in a suit, — and he testified. — Wow. There you go. — What's the odds of that? — Well, you gave that guy, you kind of helped that guy, right? A little bit. — Yeah. — Life to two years. — Not a bad deal. — There you go. I If only I could have gotten that my last six marriages. Uh the uh Not sure what that means, but it sounded funny. Anyway, uh let's see here. Uh, so you tell the story of the book. Um, it's an exciting adventure. People can check in on uh, as we go out, you know, any other tidbits you want to share to get people to pick it up. Any is there any future books maybe you're putting out? — Oh, yes. Yes. In fact, the story is take is written from the prosecutor's point of view. You don't see that very often. Usually a defense attorney or the defendant or the victim or somebody. This is taken strictly from myself and my partner's point of view. So, we're giving people like a little insight into what goes on behind closed doors when prosecutors put together a trial. — Why we put witnesses on in a certain order, why we stand where we do when we question certain witnesses and stand different place for others. We go into a lot of detail. And the other thing we go into is sidebars. You know, everybody watches stuff on TV, murder trials, and at some point you're watching it like, "Oh, we got to take a sidebar. " And then the TV shows a fan going around or something. Well, what goes on in sidebars is probably the most interesting thing, even more interesting than a trial sometimes. — And we go word for word from transcripts because we had all the transcripts. Every sidebar is recorded by a court reporter. — So, we actually go into and in this case, for some reason, the judge never allowed us to do sidebars by the bench. He made us go in his chambers all the time. — So, the corporator had to bring the machine. And so we have all these sidebars and some of the stuff that went back there that went on was just amazing. — Wow. — And um so the next book we're already third of the way there is called Pursuing Kings. — And the reason is this. Shortly after uh this trial, a new states attorney was elected in Chicago. His name was Richard Daly. He went on to be the mayor. — Ah yeah. The mayor of Dies. — Now when Mr. Rich Daly when he ran for the prosecutor job, he promised the people he would create a special unit to combat street gangs — because we had a it was a big problem. — Yeah. — So, he gets elected, he wins. I'm thinking I'm going to get fired because I was hired by the LA other guy. Lo and behold, he calls me into his office maybe a month after he's in and he says, "What would you think about becoming the first chief of gang prosecutions in Chicago history? " I was stunned. I go, "Yeah, sure. " Sure. You know, and so I ended up creating the gang prosecution division for the Cook County State Attorney's Office. — Wow. — The next book is about how that unit started, what we went through, and a real horrible case of street gang, which was actually adults, called the royal family, and they had been articles have been written about the royal family, and they were known as the kings of killing. — Wow. — So the book is pursuing kings because that's who we prosecuted. First a triple murder and then a double murder in Arizona I got involved in too. So — Oh wow. — Lot of stuff going on. A lot of stuff on there. Uh so interesting things as well. Uh now uh as so as we go out uh uh any more we want to plug before we go? — Well, I mean uh we got to plug your show

of course. I mean that's important. Whoever I mean but you know I mean that goes without saying. No, I I think that um people will find Convergence very compelling. Right now, we have 87 reviews on Amazon and we're at a 4. 9 rating. On Goodreads, we have 73 or 74 and our rating on Goodreads is 4. 65, which is extraordinarily high. So, the reviews are in. — I mean, people love the book. — Yeah. Yeah, — because it really tells you, you know, like in today's world, you know, how so much injustice takes place and nobody's willing to speak up and do anything about it. They just let it happen. — Yeah. — Well, that's not what we did. We didn't let it happen. — We fought for these victims. I mean, our job was to give the victims a voice. — Their voice had been extinguished by the killer, their killers. And that's that was our creed. Give the victims a voice. Give them a place at the table in that courtroom. — Yeah. — And that's what convergence really presses is how if you believe in something strong enough and you do the right thing, you can succeed. — Yeah. If you do the right thing, folks, it's really important to do the right — You don't want to do the left thing. No. Never — No, don't turn left. No, — it's always go right because that's the right way. Whatever that — You got it. — There you go. Well, it's been wonderful to have you on the show and talk about your book, Convergence, uh, and stuff. Uh, Craig, uh, we got your. com one last time before we go out, right? — Yeah. Yeah, we got 26reetbooks. com. That's my the website. — And I'm Greg Owen 26th on Instagram and Facebook and all the others. — And people can check out your music. Do you have a music site for all the music — Well, I put some I'm I'm working with an artist, a couple artists right now in the studio, co-producing some music. So, — yeah, I put stuff every now and then. — Yeah. All right. Well, thank you very much, Greg, for coming to the show. We really appreciate it. — I really appreciate you having me. — Thank you. Uh, and thanks to our audience for tuning in. Order up his book, Wherever Finine Books Are Sold. It's called Convergence, out September 17th, 2025 by Jonathan Dixon. And Greg Owen has been our guest co-author on the show with us there as well. We always mention that so that people know when they search for it, they know, oh, this is the one. Uh, there you go. Find it on Amazon wherever fine books are sold. Uh folks go to goodreads. com Chrisfos linkedin. com Chrisfosphos1 on the Tik Tocky and all those crazy places the internet. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. — You've been listening to the most amazing intelligent podcast ever made to improve your brain and your life. Warning, consuming too much of the Chris Wow podcast can lead to people thinking you're smarter, younger, and irresistible sexy. Consume in regularly moderated amounts. Consult the doctor for any resulting brain lead.