How Red Light Helps Our Vision and Blood Glucose Levels: Dr Glen Jeffery PhD

some of the lights we use now you can't see them they're so deep they're in the infrared your retina is just incapable of seeing them but they have it has a very big effect on the retina if we can recharge that battery uh the battery gets run down as we use it gets down as we get old um the mitochondria regulate your pace of Aging so if we can play with that battery we can affect a whole load of things and the biggest picture of course is things are aging um we're not all going to get macular degeneration but we're all going to age and die and if we can keep the battery Al flat we can improve the quality of life um for people as they move into older age hello everyone and welcome to B hackers lab I'm your host Gary Cohen and on today's episode I have Dr Glenn Jeffrey Dr Jeffrey is a professor of neuroscience at the University College of London's Institute of Opthalmology and I'm really excited to speak to you today Glenn because your lab works with the eyes and retinas and mitochondria and red light and all this cool stuff and um I actually just stumbled across two of your I mean they're old papers now cuz they're going back to 2021 so I'm late to the game on this one but uh just fascinating stuff and we're going to get into that which is more to do with shining red light into your eyeball and how that can affect your vision and Shining Light on your back and how that can affect your sugar levels which blew my mind actually so if you wouldn't mind just um intro us into like how did your lab get into red light and the eye um how did I get into red light well I got into red light because um a lab that I knew published a story on brain damage in animal models and how the animal recovered uh when they were exposed to red light and I thought this is random this is really random um but I also thought these people actually were really good they were very good and you when you read something that's a bit surprising the first thing you tend to say is do I know these people you know these people kind they got a good track record or are they out on the margin these were very good people and um so I was put on a vertical learning curve about this about the fact that there was a literature out there on how people recover particularly in terms of brain and retina from damage or challenge uh when they're given red light so you know that that needed an explanation that needed a mechanism and the mechanism slowly came out which was it's all to do with something called mitochondria there's hundreds sometimes thousands of them in every cell and as I say to make things really simple for everybody they're just batteries just they just batteries let's not go down the pathway any further than that and like some batteries such as like mobile phone batteries uh sometimes you can charge them at distance um you know you can put them in places and they charge uh and um if you recharge that battery or you just top up the charge sometimes it can help the cell overcome some pretty challenging circumstances and that was the basis of it now it started to introduce a concept of light interacting with Biology now we're all cool about that if we're talking about plants and we're Vision I just happened to use the eye this wasn't about Vision a lot of these wavelengths of light you can't see so that's kind of the general move into it and I very much found myself standing alone in a field with no one to talk to because that space between light and your body which isn't about vision is very empty space very few people in it so it's got the disadvantages you got no mates to talk to it's got the advantages that you got a clear playing field to do what you want so that was how we kind of we rolled into it but for the first five or six years I think I was treated a bit like um uh you know as if I'd lost my marbles but overcome that one now and I kind of find it funny where you know when we think about our eyes we're always taught as a kid don't shine the torch in your eyes don't put light in your eyes and now we're at the stage of where we found actually you know certain wavelengths of light are good for the eye yeah uh so would you mind just giving us sort of a summary of like what did you find when it came to red lights and Shining into the eye okay so let's beam back to the issue of mitochondria and batteries right I think it's the easiest concept to deal with um and

the eye has got a problem because it uses his batteries very heavily very heavily um you can think about it in a number of ways but you don't notice it but you can move from one room to another room and the luminance level can be easily eight log units vast luminance change and the retina deals with that and it deals with it by having a very powerful amplifier that can turn or turn down that means it draws energy right it draws a load of energy it burns energy like in fact it burns more energy per cell than any other part of your body this adapting to different lights so it's an ideal model for us using light forget about whether you can see it or not because we can use that light to recharge the battery when it's having a rough time now we can do that with other parts of the body but I come from a vision background all the equipment in my lab is Vision stuff so basically it was very easy to move into that space I'm playing with the batteries but forget whether you can see the light or not some of these lights we use we've deep red light which you know has become publicized you can just see that some of the lights we use now you can't see them they're so deep they're in the infrared your retina is just incapable of seeing them but they have a has a very big effect on the retina if we can recharge that battery uh the battery gets run down as we use it gets down as we get old um the mitochondria regulate your pace of Aging so if we can play with that battery we can affect a whole load of things and the biggest picture of course is things are aging um we're not all going to get macular de generation but we're all going to age and die and if we can keep the battery afloat we can improve the quality of life um for people as they move into older age uh and at the acid test of that is if you expose insects including bumblebees to Red Light they live longer they not only live longer they're more mobile think about you as you get old I know as I'm getting out bed the muscles aren't moving quite the way they should be the Bumblebees the Flies all these shortlived animals live longer they're more mobile as they get all older and if you could stick them on the table and talk to them I'm sure they'd tell you that you know they feel better about Mobility you can't do that with humans you can't really even do it with my in labs live for three years for me to keep a mouse alive three years is really going to empty my wallet but we can do it with flies and everything we find in a fly human so it's highly conserved a deep evolutionary highly conserved mechanis this interaction between biology batteries and light and I love the battery thing because um I also actually that's an analogy I used to use long time ago was I look at everyone as um as a battery actually like are you how full are you when you're presenting to someone you know so are you full of life energy we use that term all the time so yeah the battery analogies is a perfect one for this and I think um when I was doing a little bit of background reading around this what you were just saying with a mitochondria it just how many of these little energy cells we have at the back of our eye in the mitochondria and that determines the Aging of the back of our eye and our vision and that again just makes complete sense why we lose vision or our vision degrades over time as the as these mitochondria degrade over time as that cre but what you're finding now is that we can give them a little bit of life again with maybe the right kind of light yeah so one of our early studies on humans we we moved from doing sort of animal experiments into humans practically everything we do now is in humans and we took a whole group of people and we tested their color vision how well they could look at the contrast of different colors and um so we got a baseline on everybody we gave them a burst of red light we brought them back later and we found that they had significantly improved now that was extremely pleasantly surprising but there was an immed an immedia this was about three hours later we got an improvement in people's Vision you could detect it you could measure it and you could put it on a graph and there was no argument about it so people and it was more effective in older people than it was in younger people that was a bit noisy but I think we can generally make that point so if you think about living longer bees and flies and you think about improveing people's Vision so we know that it

happens in humans there's a really good argument for thinking about maybe we should be exposed to more red light than we generally are yeah and I that the other point um that you were mentioning there with the age difference I found personally interesting I'm now in my 40s so I fall into the age group that can benefit from this little bit more maybe than others and again it just shows the difference you know so someone who's Maybe younger is full of more Murr you're full of more energy so they're not going to see the big change but someone who's maybe on that pathway now then they could use a little bit of a battery charge up they're going to notice the bigger change and so is that something that also happens naturally as we age we lose that ability to differentiate between colors does is that a normal part of aging yeah that is the interesting thing is the retina um Burns loads of energy but if you burn loads of energy you age fast so the analogy I draw here is between uh you know your old four-door Saloon that your uncle used to drive and a sports car moves like crazy it burns more petrol but the trouble with the sports car is it needs lots of servicing looking after so throughout the body irrespective of where you are if you burn more energy if you've got high performance you will have a faster pace of Aging that's kind of that's pretty fundamental and there was a chap who sadly isn't around anymore who in the 1950s produced this mitochondrial Theory of Aging and it was really great and I I'd love to take him out for a drink and say Hey you were really right you know this was right and it has much bigger implications than I think you thought at the time yeah and so is that also I mean you're in um nearo Eye Hospital you were telling me in London there and so um you know patients are getting treated for lots of eye conditions is light therapy now sort of getting accepted more in the Opthalmology world as a way of managing the health of the retina as it ages it is but it it's coming in different packages so you can say that the scientists are now being taken quite seriously about the implications for long wavelength light red light and eye conditions the trouble is we've got lots of people coming in from the sidelines um selling devices to people to try and they make outrageous claims um so that the trouble with that is it cuts the floor from underneath me um so we have two clinical trials uh one for a disease called retinitis Pigmentosa uh we have another one for mitochondrial disease in children um to get those we've had to make a lot of effort to get acceptability and we have got acceptability um at the same time I must get 10 15 emails every day from really you know terribly nice people in someone like in in Nebraska saying I'm a bit worried about my eyes and I've seen this thing that I can get for China for $72 should I buy it I can't comment I haven't seen this device it's very likely to be something that really won't hold together very well it may not do what it says on the package so we've got noise coming in from the side and that noise is economic interest which is saying I want to sell you something give me your credit card number and you'll live forever that's not doing me any good and it's not doing the person any good um in principle M red light is good but how do we manage this Rogue element that comes in and just wants to make money um I don't know how to deal with that one I just don't but I do feel and I've said this regularly I do feel we have a moral obligation to answer those emails to say to people look this is the situation and as I've said repeatedly in podcasts and everything I will try to answer people's emails that rubs out a bit my life but it's really important we do that and ridiculous promises are made you know we're going to cure all these diseases no we're not going to cure these diseases we may slow them down we may derail them a bit but if you're blind we're not you're not going to see again let's be real let's be realistic about it so there are those two factors but there are a number of places where um red light is being considered so the other one is in cases of stroke if you have a stroke your mitochondria in your brain suffer like crazy um and if they suffer Beyond a certain point what the mitochondria can do is they put their hand up and they say to the cell

die that's it we've had enough can we hold them back from that point and so we're talking to uh clinicians about how we might introduce red lights into clinical environments um they don't have to even be seen um these very long wavelength lights they do absolutely no harm well you know that we've never found a downside to them um and so that is getting tracked if you spend money say on a long wavelength light bul let's say you spend right if that improves the chances of survival in 1% of cases that's a winner that's an absolute winner um and that is being taken seriously yeah okay yeah well that's fantastic to hear because I look at it's that sort of risk benefit ratio there and as you said the risk so far clinically is been very little to like I guess it's hard to quantify in some of the cases um maybe the risk is that it does nothing you know so that's the worst risk in some of these cases but yeah I think it's great it's you know the benefit could be massive for some people and so are we at the stage I mean it's been a few years since youve managed to release some of your research when it came to the um that I think I'll get into a little bit more nitty-gritty because some people as you said they're going to email you straight after this and want to know even more Det and I you know so was that 670 nanom that is that the magic wavelength that it comes for the eye here no the 670 was used because the first device that came out used 670 nanometers right and this so long way we've moved slightly away from 670 nanometers now because that's a bright red light that you can see and that floods your world with red light I don't want to flood so we've now working with longer wavelengths that are equally as good if not better so we use 850 a lot 850 you can't see it uh not unless you put your face right up against it you can't see it so that means it's possible to deliver something to you that might have therapeutic value that does not disturb you so what we're thinking remember thinking about mitochondria and aging can we get those lights into nursing homes you know can we and that is a real topic of discussion can we get them in and we've now made ceiling tiles um that fit into the sing that are just full of infrared 850 LEDs um they work relatively well not we've not got them into a nursing home but we certainly sat some people down and give them a cup of coffee underneath and tested their Vision before and after without them knowing what the hell's going on um and their vision gets better um so yeah let's let's try and translate it without people making a vast sum of money out of it that's my that's a big Drive yeah I I love that Placebo test you just did there you know so something like that where it's a wavelength you can't see so the person doesn't even know but you could do an objective test and see there's a difference and that so for you that must be so validating so you know exciting to be like who would have thought this invisible thing is now making this difference to someone you know there's something else when you talk about wavelengths and light bulbs so older light bulbs that we had when we were children that got hot incandescent light bulbs we got rid of them because 90% plus of the energy that they produced um was wasted in heat through infrared light now we have LEDs that don't waste anything but the key thing that we're also considering is what happens if we just take an old incandescent light bulb and we put that into your environment well the interesting thing is it improves your vision so have we rubbed the world of an important source of light that was promoting mitochondrial health and the answer to that is yes we have so having LED lights have got no red in them whatsoever even when they're they look red they're not red there's no long wavelength flight in them and when we put animals under those lights put them under straight LED lights their Vision suffers um we've just finished the study where we've been going around putting LED lights close to people's computer screens uh it doesn't do their Vision any favors at all um so in the world in the visual World mitochondria don't like blue light it discharges the battery I do like red light because it increases

the charge on the battery and in our Olden world with our incandescent light bulbs and sunlight we had a balance between the two incandescent lights produce energy very similar to sunlight very similar and then around 2005 we moved away from that and all the red light was taken away so that's one of the other challenges we've got can we go around putting incandescent lights into into spaces because the incandescent light has got loads of 850 in it and it's actually got a load of other long wavelength lights in it as well so can we promote Health by taking a step backward and using an incandescent light and we just finished a study with people at the Bartlett School of Architecture where we've gone around changing light bolts and I must say best result we've ever had in our life I mean you know and one really interesting is you know you can learn things from anecdotal stories that one guy we tested his vision it was really good and I was saying to my colleagues we're never going to get this guy improve this guy and we you know you ask lots of stupid questions then like you know can you ride a monocycle do you eat vegetables you know all these ridiculous things because you're not thinking properly and we gave him basically an incandescent light and we didn't improve him very much and my colleague who was a bit sharper than me said to him um when you put your hand on your light bulbs in your bedroom what do they feel like and he said I can't do that because they're too hot the guy had incandescent light bulbs at home God knows why he had them but he had old incandescent light bulbs and his visual system was performing at pretty much maximum performance anyway you know and that was it's a funny story not only because it reinforces what we're doing but it also tells you what stupid ideas you have when you're not getting the data You're expect to getting and you start asking people about their balance about their diet all the rest of it which isn't going to do what we what we found um so lighting is becoming incredibly important and getting that balance of blue and red back together if you're sitting in a room with Inc with old with LED lighting it's fundament blue even though you don't see it as blue and it has a component that undermines mitochondria so it's we're getting there in the clinic but we're also getting there with the Architects and the lighting Engineers GL I mean I'm that one makes me laugh because again it's so funny you think we've gone through this massive drives of as you said everyone's got to get rid of the old bulbs not energy efficient get everything LED drop all of this and then suddenly we find out wait there was a health benefit to those old bulbs because of the wavelengths and the vision um can imagine yeah that I'm just thinking myself now maybe I need to get a couple of old incandescent lights into my room over here too I'm lucky enough I got some sunlight coming through the window over here but um so is there any way to make LED um act like incandescent with a wavelengths is that where Architects maybe are going to have to go in versus going back to incandescent bulbs we're never going to get Inc and Bows back right we're never going to get them back because they're too energy insufficient inefficient the American government is just passing legislation to ban them in the UK they are uh they're not banned you can still get them off Amazon um and they're still made in China but building regulations do not allow you to put them into a new building so we've got to find a compromise somewhere and you put your finger absolutely right you know right on it which is how do we change an LED light bulb so what we were lucky to get a company to do for free um is to take an old LED light what take an LED light bulb take the front off it and stick in extra LEDs of longer wavelength so we took a an LED won't produce light generally over about 600 50 680 nanometers and at that level it's producing very little energy anyway so we got them we took the front off and we stuck in some 850 LEDs and yes that gave us Improvement no question it gave us Improvement but it didn't give us as much improvement as an incandescent light bulb and I think the thing is that we can stick an 850 LED in gives us a spike that you can't see but the incandescent light bulb has got

a whole range going into over 2,000 nanometers of infrared light so what we need to do is we need to take the LED light and we need to put a number of long wavelength deep red LEDs in it to cover the same Spectrum as you get in an incandescent light and sunlight so gone to talk to the people who gave us light bulbs with the 850 in I said can you do this yeah we can do it we're not going to do it until there's demand for it but we can do it so we can find a compromise so that we don't drastically increase the energy we use you can put your hand on this bulb and it will still be cool but it can produce loads of longer wavelength light so there is a compromise is doable and we want to get to a situation where we can throw all the data together and say this is the sensible route forward but that's got to be a route that you not only take to the National Health Service um it's got to be a route that you actually take to legislators you got to actually be able to take it to government ages agencies and say you know if we do this we have the ability to improve a b and c and you need to promote it so I I can get I can easily get you know a consultant somewhere to promote it in a particular hospital but we need Universal promotion for health care and well-being in people so we need them in gyms schools one of the big thing about not having long wavelength light is It's associated with myopia um so if you don't get daylight you spend all your time inside you do a lot of close reading you get a lot of myopia uh which is a very big issue in the Far East um slowly becoming a big issue here as kids spend a lot of time on screens kids are in schools without those massive great windows that Victorian schools had they're letting Oodles of infrared light um we need to change and the windows are actually really important because Windows now because you want to control the temperature in your building windows block infrared so new glass in corporate buildings big you know these big glass temples um they block the infrared so you've got a potentially a toxic LED and any therapeutic light long wavelength light that you would get coming in from the window that's gone that's blocked so you can put your hand on an infrared blocking window when it's in sunlight and it's cool yeah it's not hot so all of it's all of it we've got ourselves in this situation for all the right reasons that's saving energy yeah saving energy but we didn't we perhaps moved a bit too quick and we look back um I suspect that that's where the element of the problem is well um I guess the odd thing here is you know we're saving energy in one hand electricity well but we're not saving human energy like you were talking about from a battery point of view you know we're wasting our energy and it what you're saying makes complete sense to me too where I think about you go into certain environments and fluorescent bulbs or some types of bulbs and they make you feel sickly you know the lighting can make and I mean what you was telling me earlier about nursing homes I would love it that um you could Implement better lighting that would energize someone who needs a lot of energy to Red reduce the risk of fall to be able to see things you know I mean what could that I mean if someone could ever come up with a quantification of like it saves x amount of money on the NHS because now you don't have to have you know we suddenly even a 5% drop in Fall rate equates to this you know something like that so I have learned slowly that you need to put your argument in different in a different way so working with um actually a commercial lighting company who were very much on our side um they were talking to a very big Corporation about changing lighting because the whole building was being completely stripped and um uh rewired um and the guy running the lighting company said to do you know how many days have been lost through people in this building complaining about headaches you know what does that cost you so the issue of cost which doesn't naturally come to my mind came to their mind and I think you know that is you know what does it cost for us to have bed blocking in the NHS could we by changing the lighting potentially just erode that just a small amount you know and you you very rightly

point out the issue of Falls okay so we know that if we improve mitochondrial ability we can in animals improve motor skills we're working on that to try and measure that in humans someone who's 85 Who falls and breaks their hip that's costing the NHS an enormous sum of money that person will go into a hospital they'll be difficult because they aged you could be very careful about what you do with them and there's a chance that Suddenly by putting that person horizontal for a number of days and putting them to a surgical procedure you've not only cost the NHS a lot of money you've increased the probability they're going to die from things like pneumonia because they're suddenly flat on their back so I've started to work out costs which doesn't come to me naturally you know I'm a scientist but the cost is the way of getting leverage over people that make decisions because over money they tend not to make decisions over other things like perhaps slightly vager Concepts like well-being um that you know they want us they the NHS wants you to come in and say drug a cost me a pound they want me to come in and say I have got drug B that cost you 99p that's the kind of the thought process they don't they're not very comfortable with your walking in saying I want to introduce something you've never measured before you've never dealt with it doesn't involve a drug company and it's fundamentally free that that throws everybody I'm afraid but I'm learning to talk about money or other people's money anyway well good luck on that that's a challenge in itself yeah um so we've spent the first little bit talking about vision and there's so much more we could talk about from a vision point of view but the other part I alluded to in the beginning of this conversation was the sugar levels and what you found there so if I probably just give my my summarization of it was that you sh you found by shining red light again on someone's back again this mind-blowing thinking this is on someone's back we're talking about just a piece of skin on your back but then it affected the body's ability to not have such a severe spike in your glucose levels your blood sugar levels after a test is that basically the gist of what you found that's the gist of it you know and this is I must say I didn't have that idea was held by a very good colleague of mine Mike pner we were driving to Scientific meeting and two hours a two hour drive is great because you can start thinking and talking and no one disturbs you and Mike said to me you know if we're making mitochondria work hard mitochondrian need extra sugar right so they make energy but to make energy they need to burn sugar very simple um and he said well if we're making them work harder and they're burning sugar there's only one place that didn't get sugar from and that's the serum you know to be honest it was blindingly obvious but I I didn't get it so I said I think my first reaction was well I'm not doing that experiment because you know I know what blood sugar tests are pricking people's fingers getting them to drink fast amounts of glucose I'm not doing that so he came back with a very smart comment he said why don't we do it with bumblebees I because you can fast a bumblebee overnight which is what the basis of a blood glucose tolerance test is you can give a bumblebee a big drop of glucose which the following morning it will consume instantly and they do have blood but we call it hemolymph and you can extract the measure the sugar so some of those we gave red light to some of them we gave no light to and blue light to so the Bumblebees that had the red light their blood sugars did not Peak very high ones had no light at all their blood sugars peaked and the ones that had blue Li had a very big peak in their blood sugars because their mitochondria were not drawing glucose out of the serum right they we were telling them to close CL down not make much energy um that was a great fun um but then Mike we then at this point said we can't give people blue light that's unethical even though they're getting it all the time and maybe they're suffering as a consequence of the LEDs with a lot of blue light in that but we did go away and we found a whole group of ordinary people we gave them glucose and we gave them a big burst of red light on their backs now if you up regulate

mitochondria in one part of your body doesn't matter where it is after a few minutes those mitochondria send a signal around the body saying uh look everyone um we've got to up our gain we've got to increase our ability to make glucose and make uh energy and it's called people have known about this sort of thing for ages called the OB scotle effect uh people who Radiologists have known from our ages that you got a big tumor here and you eradiate it secondary tumors in different parts of your body respond okay they don't actually shrink but they stop growing up there so we know this is communication system so it doesn't matter necessarily where you give the red light as long as you give enough of it we don't want to use the eyes we want to get right away from the eyes and so those individuals that had that burst of red light their blood glucose did not spike in the same way that's all published it's all there in Open Access um now we've moved on um so Mike is doing a lot of type two diabetes people and he's getting the same result he's getting fundamentally the same result very difficult experiments to do because you got to get people and prick their fingers every few minutes to test their blood sugars you're got to lean on your friends really heavily for this one um and but the result is there and theoretically Mike said in theory this has to work and he was absolutely right it worked so can we potentially control blood sugars with light well if you look at the epidemi epidemiological evidence people that spend more time outside in sunlight have got better control over their blood sugars that people spend than people that spend their time in the built environment so population and when we're talking now about tens of thousands of people that's there we went to the individual and it's there in the individual we're not talking about small changes we're talking about quite significant changes in reduction of blood sugar spiking so and we're relying partly on this ability of mitochondria different parts of body to talk to one another but another really good example of that is there are if you look at diseases like Parkinson's disease starts as a mitochondrial disease mitochondria in one part of the brain die when they die the cell dies and then you start to produce someone who has great problems initiating movement or controlling movement and there's some great work done by groups originally from Australia who induced Parkinson's disease in rodents and induced Parkinson's disease primates and they gave red light lo and behold the symptoms were significantly reduced very significantly reduced animal wasn't cured but they were reduced but in some of those experiments in the original experiments they put a red light in the brain um yeah big procedure um and then for controls they Shone red light in different parts of the primate's body they got an almost the same effect so when they Shone red light on the abdomen or lower part of the body the animal with induced Parkinson's improved so again it's about this communication across the body m mondria talking to one another we we've isolated Bloods and we think we've got an idea what some of those messenger pathways are not all of them but a few of them things like um things called cyto kindes inflammatory markers in the blood they change all over the place when we give people red light um so you don't have to Target your organ specifically to get an improvement because it will get there eventually and hence that's why we did it on the back we didn't want involvement of the eyes um and all of this was kind of to some extent shocking at the time until we went back and read some of the literature there was there were hints there all the way through that made us feel we probably got with this one right yeah so blood sugars control is really super important diabetic crisis we're two Tre it's not going to solve um the

problem of diabetes but when you put it together with other things we can change the probability that's the important thing change the probability you know if you eat loads of sweets and sit on the S all afternoon well it's going to be a challenge but if we can get you to be a bit more mobile and put you under the right lights um it's not going to cost very much and we are going to be able to influence your your serum glucose levels and yeah I'm thinking you know a lot of listeners to this show they come here because maybe they've um had insulin resistance you know so they they're on that pathway which most people are in the world now I mean diabetes type one type two um diabetes is only on the rise in the human population and so um what I also find fascinating Glenn is I remember red light therapy or photobiomodulation the fancy name for it was used for diabetic ulcers so they found that shining red light improved diabetic ulcers and was able to in some cases save people from having amputation which blew my mind back then too and now I'm funny it's so funny thinking can you imagine like the same red light is not only like helping to heal this ulcer but it's helping to maybe modulate some of the glucose Spike that this person's having and they're not having to shine the red light on their pancreas like and get it into their stomach and shine it on the just I love all the effects that just come from this you know as your research just finds this it's like well you know it's going away reading and when we there's NASA published a great paper a few years ago about astronauts on the International Space Station um these people are super Fair their bodies are monitored every minute of the day one way or another but these people that are up there they found two really interesting things about them um they found and these were independent of gravity they found first of all that they were all showing Tendencies towards pre-diabetes right and signs of premature aging now when you look at a photograph in the International Space Station it's all hard white LEDs absolutely and so you find these little things and you think hang on I think that bit of the jigsaw fits in you know it's changing the light environment is problematic very problematic and we can't just run on LEDs standard LEDs without there being a price yeah well that is one of the big takeaways I'm taking away from this today is just that of um how much could just the light environment that I'm in just because it I happen to go down the LED route actually it could yeah and just maybe that's as you said um someone does a cost benefit analysis from your research and more research that comes from this and now and then they can scale out putting the infrared LEDs into all the LED bulbs and so we have a different human different population because we're all a little bit more energized we can maybe see a little bit better who knows could come feel a bit better you know I don't care I don't care if I live another 10 years or another 20 years I do care if I can get out of bed cycle to work do all the things that give me quality to My Life um so yeah I think that's super important and could save governments lots of money y yep and uh and people just also just enjoying life more who knows what we get out of that just happy people because they're all energetic too so yeah Glenn um I know you've got to be at another meeting a little bit so I'm not going to take too much of your time I could ask you so much more around this topic but I just want to say thank you so much um I love you know again just it's such a simple thing red light you know just light but how it could have such a positive effect and I love that note again what's the risk it's kind of like just being out in the sun for a little bit just a little bit you know not excessive but suddenly you have all these Downstream or Upstream benefits I just yeah that's why I've always loved red light therapy just what what fascinating things can come from this so I think I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your knowledge today and your insights on the human battery and how we can improve that it's been a pleasure and part of my job now in life is to spend less time in the lab and spend more time trying to get the word out there trying to get people who've got control of wallets and Pur strings to think about changing you know governments organizations we'll get there um will we get there before I die I don't know but we will get there I hope so again thank you so much Glenn for coming on for today thank you for your time I greatly appreciated

it