How Tech Employees Can Organize for Change with Lisa Conn and Anne Wootton

Hello everybody and welcome to the Radical Cander podcast. I'm Kim Scott and the rest of the team is on the radical sbatical. So for the next two or three months, I'm just going to be talking about the things that I'm thinking about. And one of the most interesting conversations I had over the last few weeks uh is with Lisa and Anne who are here with me today. Wave. — Hello. — Uh Lisa is the founder of Gather Round uh and former Meta employee and an is the founder of Popup Archive uh which got bought by Apple. So welcome Ann and Lisa. — Thank you. Glad to be here, Kim. — So, we are here talking about an uh sort of a movement that they help to foster, I should say, and called ICE out tech. I want to acknowledge before we jump into the conversation that not everyone shares the same beliefs that we do. So, if you have comments or concerns uh or disagreement, please send me an email podcastradicalcander. com. Uh we are always eager to hear other points of view, but uh Lisa and Ann and I share a belief that what ICE is doing in our cities is completely unacceptable. And also I think that tech uh the majority of people in tech sort of the vast majority agree with us but tech somehow has this reputation as the tech right which I think does not represent Elon Musk does not represent the vast majority of us or Peter Teal. So that's my spiel. Um Lisa and Ann why don't you all jump in and describe what ice tech is doing and then we can talk about this question that came up on a call last week.

Yeah, Ice Out Tech is a pledge that folks throughout the tech industry are signing. A lot of different companies, different roles, different levels of seniority, and we are condemning the actions that ICE is taking in our cities. As Kim mentioned, we all witnessed ICE brutally kill a US citizen on the streets of Minneapolis, not once, but twice. Um, and then we all — just as bad as when they brutally kill a non US citizen. — Absolutely. And then we see Trump lie about it and the administration mischaracterized what we see happening with our own eyes. Um, and this is did not happen overnight. Federal agents have been in cities terrorizing communities over the course of the last year. I live in Los Angeles, so we experienced this with a lot of intensity just a few months after we had our fires. So last June, it was terrifying and really terrible. They're still here and they're still terrorizing our community, but uh we experienced much more intensity last June. And so we created this pledge asking people to sign with three demands. One, and they're all asking CEOs of the big tech companies to pick up the phone, call the White House, demand that ICE leave our cities, cancel company contracts with ICE, and speak out publicly against IC's violence. I don't think these things are particularly controversial. Uh, and the fact that we've gotten so many signatures from so many different kinds of people suggests that a lot of people agree with us. — Amazing. Ann, you want to say a couple of words about how you got involved? — Sure. And I was also just gonna um add to the hype a little bit around the pledge because we have seen over 1,600 people sign um and that number has uh swelled significantly um just in the last — congratulations. really it's impressive what you all are doing [snorts] — and yeah I feel like it's not even my place to say thank you but you know the reason I'm here is uh what I would say to that feels like kind of the least I can do um you know there are people who have signed now across tech Nvidia anthropic openai Google Salesforce Adobe Oracle the list goes on and um I found myself feeling um uh like uh it was a really odd sensation to feel so insulated and protected and isolated from so much of the reality that country is experiencing. And uh I think a lot of people in my position have a hard time viscerally connecting to what is happening because it is so overwhelming and so hard to grapple with. — And so these tech focused actions feel like one small way that I can try to contribute. — Well, thank you. Uh, I mean, I've been looking for someone to follow on this and, uh, I'm following you, too. So, thank you for Thank you for your leadership here. Uh, it's really, really important what you're doing. Uh, and important on multiple different levels. Um, so we

had a call last week and you invited me to participate in the call. So, thank you. And someone on the call had a really uh important question that I think a lot of our listeners are also asking themselves. And the question is if you work in tech or in any industry where you feel like the leaders are not doing the right thing uh what do you do? What are your options? And we had a really rich conversation. So I thought the three of us could sort of I don't there's no capital A answer to that question. It's uh but I think a lot of people feel um isol isolated and helpless and mostly I just want to let folks know that you're not alone. So that's part of the goal and that was part of the joy of that call that you all organized. But also I think that there were a lot of good ideas. — Yeah. I think there's when we talk about a company not living your values or doing things that you're uncomfortable with, there's the company's actions and we could talk about Project Maven as an example of that. um which was a Google project where employees really pushed back and Google ended up not doing the project with the Department of Defense. Um then there's the leader of the company, the CEO or anyone who's external and public and them doing things in their semi-personal capacity, but that doesn't totally exist when you're the CEO of a large company. And then there's the work you yourself are doing. And I think if all three of those things are misaligned, that's one thing. But if two are misaligned, one isn't, so on and so forth. Um, I think each of the situations are a little bit different. Ann, what do you think? — Yeah. Um, right. Like, you know, I love the work that I do. Um, and I don't think that um this is a question necessarily of of bringing politics into work even. It feels like um you put this really well actually in the op-ed that you wrote for the times, Kim, about you know that it shouldn't be seen as brave to speak out in a country ostensibly that's a democracy with free speech but that the risk is in not speaking out um and that you know silence uh can enable all sorts of — terrifying horrifying things. Um and so for me, uh a lot of sort of what to do has centered around just being willing to talk about it. um and to get over whatever [clears throat] instinctual and I'm very sensitized now I think to that instinctual sort of fear or pullback impulse to like play it safe or uh to not speak about something that like Lisa said uh at you know at the end of the day doesn't feel like a particular leftist issue but maybe more common sense. Yeah. We don't want people getting randomly shot on the street. Like that that's not right or left, — right? — Yeah. Um that — Yeah. And so like in terms of what to do for me that was like a pretty you know simple but significant um you know re realization that it's important to talk to the people around me um the the people I work with to try to gather with as many others like we did on the call where we all um you know were together um recently and um and yeah to uh to not heir on the side of caution or safety when the stakes are so high and you know speaking for myself at least I I'm uh in a position of relative security and um and I know you also have said some smart stuff about the um the roles of affluence and courage and maybe potential negative correlation there. Um, and that really resonated with me too. Um, like I said, it's like the least we can do. — Yeah. Well, and I think everybody it's important to remember that everybody is in a different situation and like it's right now I'm in a situation where it's totally easy for me to speak out because I co-founded the company where I work — um right my co-founder and I you know see eye to eye about these issues. Um and you know and I was very fortunate in my career like I'm going to be able to put food on the table. Uh and so I don't want anyone listening to this to feel judged for what they're doing or not doing like we're all in different situations. Uh, having said that, as I was writing radical respect and sort of looking back over my career and thinking about other times when I didn't speak out that I could have, I realized that

and this is kind of what I meant in the Times article when I said that affluence and courage are negatively correlated. There was a there was I mean, I'm going to put it in business terms. There was a negative ROI for me of speaking out because I could just quit and get another job and make more money. And if I made waves, it was going to make it more complicated for me to get another job and make more money, you know. But at a certain point, I had to ask myself, how much better can I eat? You know, like at some point enough has got to be enough. And uh and everybody [clears throat] is at a different stage and has different needs. So I don't want to say what anybody else's number should be, but I had hit my number where enough was enough [snorts] and so it's m it's quite easy for me to speak out. I want to express a lot of compassion for people who are working for companies who might be doing things that they vehemently disagree with and you're in it you're in an uncomfortable situation in that in that moment. So um I want to hold some space for that feeling as well. — Why do you think the top most affluent CEOs in tech today seem to have so little courage or do you think it is just that they are expressing their ideology? Like do they actually are they actually okay with some of this stuff? I don't think so. — I don't I mean — so where's their courage? — I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. Uh it it's really it's puzzling to me because I you know I really have the utmost respect for Tim Cook and um it's puzzling uh I have the utmost respect for Sundar Pachai and it's it's to me. So, I want to say that um a bunch of people wrote to me and asked me to criticize the letter that the CEOs wrote. And the way that I replied is what I did was I signed your letter. I signed what you all wrote because I felt that it was a very strong statement. And I think we're at this moment where we've got to sort of lead by example even if we're not in charge. And uh and so that's why I think it's so important what you all are doing. You're speaking out. You're saying what you think. You're not insisting that uh that a CEO who knows what kind of pressure these people are under. — Yeah. — I I mean I know them to be good and strong people. I would not describe them as lacking in courage in general. So it's ominous. I mean, having spent much of my career, well, the early four the first four years of my career in what was in the Soviet Union, uh, and then Russia. It was it it's really devastating to see what happens in a culture where people are afraid to say what they really think and where they're afraid for good reason. Like they're going to get shot. Like I have zero fear that, you know, I guess I should knock on wood. But I'm not expected to I'm not expecting to be arrested and thrown into um a Soviet prison as a result of speaking out. So we still do live in a free society, but we may not forever if we don't speak out now. And so for me — uh at least the ROI of not the return on investment of not speaking out is enormous like unfathomably huge uh for our world which is why I admire what you all are doing. — Well and I think that's what you know what you're getting at when you talk about holding space for the different situations that everyone is in. Like I don't think there's a particular playbook that works for everyone in tech. you know, there are a lot of people who are here on visas who have been told to carry their papers with them. Um, you know, working in big tech. Um, and I think, yeah, you talk about the negative ROI of not speaking out and it, you know, as I think about others who may hear this and be, you know, hearing about this pledge for the first time or contemplating signing it, every person makes the right decision for themselves. I hope. Um but for me that feeling of helplessness and isolation is is a pretty strong motivator also um to then you know take a step however small um — and uh and in this case you know for me to try to spread the word that this pledge exists um as something that others can also do and that and that you know we can connect and talk about and uh and not feel maybe quite so lonely in the particular work that we may be doing which you know like I said maybe work that we love it's I think you know those three buckets that you talked about Lisa can be separated out and that's okay. Um but then yeah it's a decision we each have to make.

— So I think there's a few things that we can do to speak truth to power without blowing up our careers. So maybe it's helpful to talk about those things. I think one of the first and most important things we can do that ev everyone listening can do is to build solidarity and that is why I love what you all are doing is you're helping put people in touch with one another so that we can talk about what we are what we're seeing what we're reading about and how we feel about it. I mean, just knowing that you're not alone is really important because I think — there's a term for it that you all probably know that is escaping my pea brain right now. But often a lot of people agree on something. Uh but then nobody's talking, so they don't know that they feel like they're isolated when in fact they're in the majority. — I don't know if this is the term you mean, but mutual visibility is a term that I've used to refer to that. — That's a good one. That's not what I'm thinking of. But — but anyway, I'll put it I'll think of it and put it in the show notes. — Great. — But like during uh in the South um the vast majority of people, as it turned out, were actually opposed to segregation. They wanted integrated schools, but nobody was saying it. And so everybody thought they were this radical isolated person. — So build solidarity. That's step number one. So, so if you don't want to join this the ice tech, join some other group, but find your people. The second thing that I think is really important um is to locate the exit nearest to you. Uh figure out like what would it take to get another job. I think so often in my career I have felt more trapped than I really was. Now again, I want to acknowledge that some people are well and truly trapped. Some people have a visa situation, but it's important to know what your exit options are before you go in and have these conversations uh at work. And then before you quit, before you exercise your exit option, have these direct conversations with people at work and see if you can change things because often — you can. As you mentioned, Maven, you want to talk a little bit about what happened there, Lisa? — Yeah, I think there's actually three interesting examples of tech workers having some kind of influence on tech companies, whether it's the company itself or the CEO or some combination. And I'm happy you talked about the South. My sort of personal family biography, my grandmother was an activist during the civil rights era. And um so when I was growing up, I would always hear these stories of this woman who was Jewish, not wealthy, not powerful, not particularly educated, who organized her community and found solidarity and asked for change and was successful. And they did things that seem small, like they desegregated the swimming pool next to my dad's elementary school, but those kinds of things, community by community, paved the way. Um and so I you know and I think startups and companies are basically the same thing. People coming together with a shared goal, a shared purpose creating something. And so in some ways we are the most equipped people to organize and to uh make impact. Okay. So a few examples of this working. The first I want to talk about is the Muslim ban. Um so in 2017 we all remember um Trump limited entry to c to the US from certain countries. It was called the Muslim ban and it was something that was really impacted employees directly. People were stuck and couldn't return home from trips. Others were afraid to leave the country at all. It was really problematic for hiring and hiring pipelines. and employees started talking about it internally, not necessarily as a political statement, but because they needed clarity on their jobs and their lives and what was going to happen to them. And as a result, more than a hundred tech companies, including Apple, Microsoft, Google publicly opposed the policy and actually filed legal briefs against it. And so the courts then blocked early versions and the administration had to rewrite the law and the final version was ultimately a lot more constrained as a result of this advocacy. So that's one example where uh employees really made a difference and the needs of employees made an impact. Um the second is project maven. So in 2018 Google had a contract with the department of defense to provide AI tools for analyzing drone footage. So AI tools to contribute and aid in uh war

right? And thousands of employees did not like this. So they organized actions. They signed petitions. some publicly resigned, which is a very extreme way of exercising your exit options, but people did it and it worked. Google ended up not renewing the contract and also issuing very formal AI principles that restricted military use. And then the most recent example, and I actually don't know the role of employees in this, um, was in October of 2025, where Trump wanted to send the National Guard to San Francisco and a bunch of tech CEOs got on the phone, called the White House, their buddy at the White House, and said, "Don't. " And he didn't. He listened. So, we know that tech companies are impactful and powerful and that employees, workers can organize. And that word sometimes is scary to people. Well, I don't mean for it to be so scary, but find solidarity and um come up with a strategy. — This should not be a scary word. I'm just — I think words like organize and power sometimes freak people out, but I agree with you. Yeah. — Yeah. Uh people need to uh band together and make their voice heard. And I think there's this perception in the post sort of layoff like 2021 2022 layoffs plus AI world. — Yeah. There's this perception that well if you want to leave there's that saves us on severance. Don't worry about it. And I think that gives employees the feeling that they don't have as much power. Um and I just don't think that's true. — There's Yeah, that's why I'm like explore your exit options. Even if you have no intention right now of leaving, like figure out where you could go. figure out what your exit options are. — And not because that will make you less uh not because you're unhappy, but because you will be happier at work if you feel a sense of agency. You're not going to do your best work if you feel trapped. — Very true. In life in general. — Yes. Exactly. — In any situation. Yeah. Another interesting uh example or actually there's multiple examples of how people in tech have really had an influence on the industry and on policy uh is in Corey Doctro's book in shitification. Uh and so it's worth reading that book uh because I think that they're we've drifted, shall I say, and it's possible to drift back. Have you read uh that book, Corey Dro's book? An

— No. But thank you for the wreck. — I recommend it. Yes. — Yeah. — I think also like this moment more than ever, you know, tech companies are, you know, well, this has been going on for a while, but perhaps now, I don't know, more than ever, shaping our lives and our futures in profound ways. You know, we're all being asked to put our trust in tech companies. Um, and so, you know, looking beyond the short or medium term to what future we're being asked to imagine. I think, you know, that's where I get back on my uh my silence versus speaking out pulpit. Um, and and feel like, you know, we want technology to create a future of personal empowerment, not fear. Um and so and that's you know um — uh mutual visibility or whatever you want to call it. I think we're the value in recognizing um especially when uh I think you know so many of us are like-minded on a lot of these issues but but you know may not be heard unless we band together. — Yes. I think so much of uh of the impetus for tech was power to the people. It's going to be decentralized. Zadeie Smith. There's a great quote from Zadeie Smith where she said the internet was going to be great. We were all going to be talking to each other peer-to-peer unmediated by the man. That is not the internet we got. Uh and yet it is possible to get back to those core power to the you know share the power rather than hoard the power decentralized rather than centralized. it. These are choices that we uh are making ourselves in the work we're doing and that our companies are uh these are decisions. So, and everyone listening has an influence on those uh on those decisions. So, let's get sort of practical tactical what can folks listening do? They can sign the pledge either — signed or you can sign it anonymously — and uh and you all are checking that real people are signing. So — yes, everyone's verified. — Yeah. — Um so that's uh that's awesome. There's also uh Scott Galloway's, you know, uh effort to get people to unsubscribe from a whole host of different products. What do you all think about that? I think it reminds me a little bit of maybe I shouldn't say this, but it reminds me a little bit of people who take three minute showers to use less water when at least in California just up the coast. — Yeah. Right. Um like it feels a little hard for me to imagine large enough impact that CEOs actually feel the pain, but I think everything's worth trying. You know, these are questions that I ask myself, which are what tactics are and aren't effective

— what will actually make a CEO bend? And um what will make them respond is if they're backed into a corner, which is probably not as effective. — Yeah. Uh and so probably employees of companies organizing to boycott their own product, their own companies won't be as effective as um you know maybe asking questions in town halls or posting on internal Slack channels repeatedly or bringing it up in private meetings with leadership until it you know rises in the org chart. — Yeah. um — or just asking questions trying the perspect like why are we doing this why what is pushing us to do this and not that — right — uh although I do think at least for me I have found it very liberating to look for alternatives to buying everything on Amazon for example and I and now I'm finding all these cool things to buy and getting cool notes from small manufacturers — where do you shop? — Uh, I do a search and I try to find some individual who's making the thing that I mean, it's not going to work for, you know, well, even dental, even like — Yeah, there's cocoa floss. There's cool alternatives to things. — Well, and you can buy them usually directly on the site. So, it turns out that uh — we don't need Amazon for everything necessarily. — No, not at all. They're very few things. In fact, — yeah. [snorts] — Uh so I I do think also uh that like I'm using I I'm obsessive listener to audio books and I'm using Libro FM which is awesome uh instead of Audible. So there's there are like if you just and that neither one of those decisions took very much effort frankly. Uh and they actually have been rewarding. [snorts] Uh so you never know and Yeah, kind of in the same vein, you know, like it you don't have to be even a signer of the ice out tech pledge to look for alternatives to buying everything from Amazon, right? And and I think that, you know, predates this effort for many people, you know, um for a long time. Um similarly I think the you know we've referenced the sort of isolation and um uh yeah loneliness that lots of people not just in tech are experiencing today. Um you know and and the role that technology may or may not play in that. But you know one one concrete thing that I have uh found through these efforts is a willingness to connect with other people and in person even who you know — I'm in New York. um it's not where my company is headquartered but there were a lot of other you know tech workers here and just to know that there is you know like you said you find your people that there are others who I can connect with even in real life which activates me on so many just fundamentally human levels there's you know there's nothing like uh you know truly in-person face-to-face connection and so I think that um that serves a lot of purposes. Um and if and yeah, and if signing the pledge is part of that, you know, then uh all the better. — Well, I will say as a former big tech worker and maybe Meta has changed, but I

think this still applies to a variety of tech companies is there is something about keeping it in the family and sort of keeping it confidential within the family, but being able to be loud and critical internally. Um, and so I think there's a few tactics. If you're a tech worker at a big company and you have a the CEO of your company that does have Trump's ear that you think whether you ever know about it or not, but you think could either whisper or yell in a way that might influence him. Um, some of the things I think you can do that are never public, like you don't ever need to talk to a reporter or post on LinkedIn or post on Instagram. You can do it all internally. And I think some of the tactics are one figuring out your story, being able to articulate your story. Um, I love the framework of the personal story or the story of self, which is a Marshall Gance concept where you share your values. You explain where you landed. So, if you're someone who feels strongly about what ICE is doing because of a personal experience that you had, it's a lot harder to argue with a person when they're sharing something vulnerable and true to them. So, get clear on your story and be willing to share it as much as you can. Um, learn how to have one-on- ones that are about this. So, having coffee with people who you recognize at the company, on your team, on other teams might share your values and articulate your story, pull out their story, find areas of commonality, and then make a plan of some kind. Um, and then I think internally hosting little meetups that are for co-workers on your team across teams that share your values and strategize. And the more you can start to do those things, kind of build a movement internally while still doing your job and still being respectful of the boundaries of the company. Um, still not risking, you know, getting in trouble. Uh, and I think that if I were, you know, as a CEO of a company that was much is much smaller than any of these companies that we're talking about, if most of my employees or a bunch of my employees were organizing to talk about something that I was doing, I certainly would be aware of that and at least want to listen in some way. Would it change my behavior? Maybe, maybe not. Uh, but it would probably influence me to some extent. So, learn your personal story, be able to articulate that, feel really comfortable with it, practice it. you can find resources online to articulate that story. Um, have one-on- ones with people who share your values and then host internal meetups and make a plan. — Yeah, such good advice. I think also in addition to that, it's a great idea to learn how to talk respectfully with people who disagree with you uh at work and outside of work. Yeah. — Because even if like I don't think there I don't think there's any likelihood that I I'm going to change my mind on how I feel about what ICE is doing in our cities. I think it's really wrong. And at the same time, I know there are a lot of other people out there who disagree with me — and people I love actually who disagree with me. And it's really important, I think, to learn how to have conversations with people about deeply held beliefs that you have. and to be it's okay to disagree and not to change the other person's mind or change your own mind. Like I think going into those conversations — the goal is not to change the other person, not to be changed necessarily — but to deepen your own thinking because a belief that doesn't get challenged can become a prejudice. And so making sure that like there was a time when I was uh when I was working at Google [clears throat] and the vast majority of people on the team were super duper liberal and there was one person who was conservative on the team. Well there was more than one but there was one in particular who came to me and he said it's like I'm being invisibleized. you know, you all assume that everybody agrees with everything you all are saying and I disagree vehemently, but I don't feel

— that I can speak up. I don't feel it's worth it to speak up and that is a huge I realized that was a huge failure of leadership on my part and of being a good colleague. So, make sure that you are uh that you are not it's when you feel very passionately about something, it's easy to descend into what I call self-righteous shaming. And I recommend strongly uh that folks avoid self-righteous shaming at all points and and find your people, but also talk to you're not people or whatever. Talk to people who disagree with you. You're making me think of uh I don't know if you heard either of the uh acceptance speeches that uh Bad Bunny gave at the Grammys. No, — but his takeaway one of his takeaway lines was um just about um how much hate there is and that hate begets hate and that the one thing stronger than hate is love. Right. Love. — Um and that's just you I can't argue with that as a guiding principle. — Yeah. the truth. You can't choose between them. You got to do both. — So polarization is a term that gets thrown around a lot. We always talk about polarization. And I think there's sort of a framework that I love that articulates what both of you are talking about, which are these kind of subcomponents of polarization. So polarization is defined as divergence of attitudes to the extreme. And issue polarization is strong opinions about a particular issue. So I'm really I hate dogs. You love cats. Like that kind of thing. I don't hate I have a dog. I love dogs. But you know, you're sort of extreme on these things. But that's the issue piece of polarization. Then there's this element called affective polarization, which is how we feel about people who disagree with us. Um, and you know, I think that issue polarization is actually quite important in moments of civic activism. If you didn't feel strongly about an issue, you wouldn't engage. You wouldn't protest. You wouldn't vote. You wouldn't sign a pledge. You wouldn't have us on your podcast. So I don't think it's a I don't think extremism when it comes to how you feel about something about an issue is necessarily a bad thing. But when it results in us hating people who disagree with us, that's where it becomes impossible to collaborate, compromise, have conversation. So what I aspire to in conversation, and it's not easy, talking to people who disagree with you, especially when you feel strongly, is really unpleasant. It's like worse than going to the dentist. um is try to still love the person who I disagree with. So try really hard to listen and to understand, but if you can't and if it doesn't change your mind in any way and if you can't find common ground, still try to feel love or positivity towards the person you disagree with. And if you can't, that's something also to reflect on and think about. Um because we can be, you know, polarized on issues without being effectively polarized. I think it's the affect of polarization that really tears us apart. — Yeah, totally. Very, very well said. I'll give you an example of this happening to me. I was invited to give a talk for an organization and I didn't really read much about that. I said yes. And then right before I was about to get on the airplane, I kind of looked into the organization. I was like, "Oh my goodness, they believe a lot of things that I disagree with. " which was clear if you look at my I mean I don't make a secret um of what I think uh and I you know I called them to make sure they were they knew where I stood and they were like of course you're the radical caner person of course we can and so I thought of course you know we can talk and so I got there and I started giving the talk and it was going well and good questions and a lot of warmth from the audience and I had this thought these people are not my enemies. These are my you know these are my fellow citizens. — These are my you know my fellow people. And I realized that I had this effective sort of — disrespect and I just took a deep breath. I was like I like these people. Like I may not agree with them but I like them. And after the talk was over, somebody came up and asked me if I believed X. Yes. Y, yes. She kind of cocked her head and she looked at me and she said, "Huh, — you don't seem like an evil person. " — And I would have laughed at her except that I had I realized I had just been going in thinking these are we are not e there are evil people in the world. I don't want to say that but most of us are really not. good u human beings — and I bet them being welcoming of you and being excited to have you made you feel more open to them. Like so often

and I deal with this sometimes there's this concept retaliatory dehumanization where you're — you assume the other person is going to dehumanize you so you want to dehumanize them first. Yes. — And sometimes we feel that people are judging us and so we judge them first. — But if you're welcome with open arms you might respond with open arms. Yes. So, welcome everyone uh to have great conversations. Take a deep breath. I think where we ended uh on the call and where we should probably end this conversation is I hope that everybody can take a deep breath, take the time to do what they need to do. I spent a good chunk of this morning outside weeding. That is what I need to do to staying sort of calm. So figure out how to spend the time that you need to uh to get to replenish yourself. — Absolutely. — All right. Thank you all so much. Thank you for the work you're doing. I'll put in the show notes uh link to the ICE out tech uh pledge that people can sign if they are so moved. And uh thank you to the listeners for listening to this conversation. If you have thoughts and comments, podcastradical cander. com. We invite all perspectives and welcome them. — Thanks. — And it's ice out. te if you want to just go there right now. — Yes. For the show notes. Easy to remember. — Thank you. — You don't have to wait for the show notes. — All right. Take care everybody. Goodbye. — The Radical Cander podcast is based on the book Radical Cander. Be a kick-ass boss without losing your humanity by Kim Scott. The Radical Caner podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmocker. Follow us on LinkedIn, radicalcander the company, and visit us at radicalcander. com.