How Mindfulness Helps Trauma Survivors Feel Safe Again: A Conversation with Linda Thai

Headspace Studios — Hi everyone. Welcome to Radio Headspace. It's Dora. As we come to the end of Mental Health Awareness Month, we're sharing one more special episode as part of our new in-app collection Navigating Trauma. Today, I'm joined by somatic therapist and trauma expert Linda Thai for a thoughtful conversation about what trauma really is and how healing can begin. Trauma is often associated with something extreme or clearly defined. But as Linda shares, it can also come from experiences like chronic stress, neglect, displacement, or the ways we've had to adapt just to survive. In many ways, trauma is not only what happened to us, but also what didn't happen. In this episode, we explore how trauma shapes the mind, the body, and the nervous system. How it can show up in our everyday lives, and how mindfulness, compassion, and small moments of awareness can gently support the healing process. And just a note before we begin, this episode does touch on sensitive topics that might be difficult or activating for some listeners. So please listen with care and do what feels most supportive for you. I am so delighted to have you here today, Linda, and thank you for joining us. It's an absolute pleasure, Dora. Yeah, so I know you, but for the Radio Headspace listeners, they may not know who you are. So, I don't want to say like in a few sentences cuz we'll dive into it, I'm sure, in the episode, but share who you are. I like to think of myself as someone who is a trauma therapist as a byproduct of my own healing journey. So, I started out in life born in Vietnam 2 years after the fall of Saigon, so 2 years into the rule of authoritarianism, specifically communism. Mhm. And 2 years after that, my family fled Vietnam. So, I'm a former child refugee. We lived in a refugee camp for 6 months, then raised in rural Australia, and then the big city of Melbourne. And yet, that was 1979. Uh I fumbled and stumbled my way through a world that I didn't understand, and my parents couldn't help me make sense of the world because they were also displaced as well. Mhm. And then as an adult, I had struggles with addictions, with relationships, with finding my place in the world. I ended up moving to Alaska, so I'm an immigrant into the United States as an adult. Mhm. And that was huge for me because I finally got to say, "Hey, I that despite everything that I can't even name, I'm going to try my best to make the best of my life, even though I have no idea what I'm doing. " How did you end up on this path then as a somatic therapist? Well, it started out with the Vipassana meditations. So, I did eight 10-day silent seated meditation retreats in the tradition of Goenka G Ooh. uh within a period of 3 years. And so, that created enough capacity for a pause for me to notice the automaticity of my conditioned responses to my reactions, my way of being in the world, the ways in which I was both overreacting and underreacting. And during that same period of time, I also stumbled upon yoga, and then I stumbled upon my own addiction recovery in a roundabout kind of way because substances didn't bring me to my rock bottom. I just hadn't experienced enough negative consequences. But and because of my meditation and yoga training, I was invited by one of my friends to lead a yoga for addiction recovery like weekly class. And as a result of that, I'm getting exposed to people who are in their own addiction recovery and I'm sitting there going, "Oh my How come I can relate to everything everyone says? " Yeah. And then one week someone handed to me the patterns and characteristics of codependence and then I went, "Wow. " And by this point in time, I had the capacity to be honest about my discomfort rather than try and override it. And in that moment, I saw it and I saw the ways in which so many of my behaviors and ways of being in the world was oriented around trying to keep myself from ever feeling

the feelings that I would do anything to not feel ever again. Which initially was shame and then I realized, "Oh my god, there's like rejection, abandonment, approval seeking, people pleasing, perfectionism, all as ways of trying to hide underneath the radar as well as trying to get my needs met. " Yeah. And maybe just to kind of set the foundation here for everyone that's tuning in. I think trauma is a word that has become quite trendy and yet uh it may be hard to locate ourselves within that. Could you define what trauma is for the folks that are listening that are trying to understand, "Okay, has this happened to me? " or maybe it hasn't. Yes. So in a traditional sense, we have framed trauma as this something that has happened and it's overwhelmed your capacity to make sense of it. It's overwhelmed your nervous system's capacity to return to a felt sense of safety. Right. And there's the focus then on an acute something that happened that was too sudden and too overwhelming. Right. And yet from a more holistic sense we can also frame trauma as too much or too little of something that is too sudden or for too long Yeah. without adequate So, this is the other side of the equation. Without adequate time, space, permission protection resources or resourcing for the nervous system to return to homeostasis. Right. And as a result of this a trauma survival response gets stuck in the nervous system. — [sighs and gasps] — And so this is where trauma is then adaptation. This then creates a series of future-oriented survival strategies that live in the present moment. Yeah. And then we think of those things as who I am. Right. Maybe can you give an example? I sure can. I used to think that I was someone who was on top of everything at all times. Yeah. Other people gave me feedback that I was micromanaging and controlling. Okay. — I'm seeing myself in this as well. — Yeah. — [gasps] — Yeah, another example would be you know, I Okay. I love my mother. I just want to make that really clear. — [snorts] — And as a result of being ripped away from her family, her culture, her village, her country, — Yeah. [sighs] she has the tendency to I call her my smother. Mhm. Like she's my smother. And I say that with such affection these days. She's my smother. She doesn't know any other way to be. I can't change her. Yeah. And that's also a future-oriented survival strategy that lives in the present moment because she can't not. Mhm. She can't not compulsively caretake me. Like it's life or death. Yeah. Yeah. — And that's the thing that can be really slippery is that for people from the outside, like it's just annoying and I want her to go away. However, her felt experience from the inside is it feels like life or death just like for me [snorts] micromanaging, controlling, like I don't see myself like that. Other people see it like that. I just see myself as needing to know and having the capacity Yeah. — to have my group on everything at all times. — Yeah. And there's this little thing in the background outside of my conscious awareness that says — [clears throat] — Mhm. life or death. We have this continuum of stress distress trauma. Mhm. And every person, every family system, every peoples, like every culture has their strengths. Mhm. And when you add stress distress trauma, Mhm. then your innate strengths and gifts becomes magnified and amplified Mhm. in such a way that we then think that is who we are. And trauma is also what didn't happen that should have happened. Mhm. Yeah, the someone's failure to protect you. Mhm. Right? The fact that someone was physically unavailable. And therefore you had to figure out everything all by yourself. — Yeah. And there was no one to step in and protect. there to guide. As a result of that, there may have been things that or experiences that entered your environment that otherwise wouldn't have. And it's also the missing experiences of being comforted.

The missing experiences of having someone to turn to. that you could just ask for help. Yeah. — [gasps] — And as a result of that, we move through the world bereft of a sense of place. knowing that other people have got me. Bereft of a sense of I can turn to others. And we walk through this world with this stoic hyper independence. Mhm. And we don't think of that as a result of trauma. We haven't talked specifically about the nervous system, but I'm sure people are like, well, what about fight, flight, freeze, and fawn? How does the nervous system play into trauma? Yeah. So, when we look at the acute model of trauma, right, it's too much, too sudden. Right, we think of fight and flight. Right, like there that's how I know when I'm in a survival response, I'm overreacting, but I'm not actually overreacting. It's in service of survival. Yeah. And then we actually look at sort of longitudinal systemic trauma, which is a fancy way of saying it it's saturated in your environment. Mhm. We then become reshaped by those experiences. Mhm. And one of those ways of being reshaped is to conserve energy. Mhm. Yeah. And that energy conservation can happen at all levels of someone's being. So, it can happen at the physiological level, it could also happen at the psychological level, at the emotional level. Right. And here's the thing, we are put into an impossible situation. Okay. And that impossible situation is disconnecting from one's own needs in order to belong, Mhm. in order to survive, in order for the family to survive. And so, fawning is rather than it being a pathology or there's something wrong with me, right? It gets labeled as codependence, like there's something wrong with me. It's an adaptation to a situation of enduring stress, distress, trauma. So, we've talked about what trauma is. We've talked about the stress, distress, trauma continuum, and now I'm like, all right, how do we heal? How do we begin with the healing process? — I know myself, I get stuck in the like, what is this? It's here, it's happening, but what are the ways out? I I'm curious, especially for you, having that mindfulness experience going on in the past now retreat, which could go any which way for people. How has mindfulness allowed you to heal from trauma? Mindfulness and yoga taught me how to have a skillful relationship with discomfort. I know everyone wants the how-to and wants the bullet point hit list of like, the things I do in the order in which I do it, but I really want to land on this one. Yeah. — All right, because for trauma survivors, discomfort equals unsafety, threat, and danger. Mhm. And so, the whiff of the sniff of discomfort, yeah, there's the recoiling from it. Mhm. And there's also the the disconnect from it, which is actually adaptation. Right. So that we can override. Yeah, I'm noticing myself experiencing like discomfort and I override it. I push forward. I keep going because that is the only option that I have for survival. It's the only option my family has. peoples Right. — have had. And this may become then intergenerational. And every culture has a phrase for suck it up, stuff it down, keep going. Yeah. Eat your bitterness. Right. Yeah. Yeah. — [sighs and gasps] — Yeah. And so we then have this distorted relationship to discomfort where we override it, we conquer it, we suck it up, stuff it down, pick ourselves up by our bootstraps. And we also then want nothing to do with it. Yeah. And so mindfulness, yoga, taught me how to develop a skillful relationship with discomfort. Yoga is simple, not easy. Yoga is simple. Put your body in an uncomfortable position Right. and then breathe. Right. And it's not breathe through the discomfort. Yeah. It's breathe in this moment with whatever sensations I'm noticing. Yeah, and then I offer or I get offered alignment cues. Right, some of which is unclench your

jaw. — Right, or Right, cuz I'm like gripping or my head is forward because I'm like in the future. Yeah. Or my shoulders are tense cuz I'm bracing. Yeah. Or right like these things right here. This is the physiology of my body that's saying override. Right. That's saying conquer. That's saying get away from this. So in the process of yoga, I get to notice the narrative. perhaps, you know, it takes some practice. I get to notice the way the narrative then translates into what's happening in my body. And I get to come back to the breath. And mindfulness is another version of this. Just like all the different schools of yoga, right? Whether it's yin yoga or a vinyasa yoga, what we're doing the same thing. We're being uncomfortable. And we're learning to have a more skillful relationship with discomfort. Mhm. In such a way that we can then move through our relational world with more discernment. Mhm. And discernment arises as a result of this skillful relationship with discomfort. Mhm. Yeah. I remember you mentioning — Sorry, go ahead. No, I can give a specific example if you like. — Yes, please. Yes. — I love examples. Oh, hyper-competent, hyper-independent person over here. If someone would open a door for me, even though I'm carrying five bags, my internal response is like, you don't think I can open the door for myself? Right? Like, I get upset. — Are we the same person? I'm like, are you reading my diary? — [gasps] — Yes. And then I started doing yoga and mindfulness. And in that moment, I noticed the automaticity of the response in my mind body. Mhm. Yeah. And then I can take a breath. And then I notice myself like saying the thing anyway in my head and then I notice the automaticity of the response. In the past, I wouldn't have noticed the automaticity of that. But now I can notice I can notice how I can't help it. Mhm. And in that moment, I can have some compassion for myself. Yeah. [sighs and gasps] And — And in that moment, I can then choose another internal response even after I've said the nasty thing in my head to the person. I can also I can go, "Yes, and Yeah. Yeah, how nice is it that there's someone who notices that Yeah, and takes time out of their day to open the door for me. " And then there's that little harumph of "Yeah, I guess I guess that was like you know, I don't have to open every door for myself. — But even I can. " I'm strong. I'm so Yes. Yeah, and yet people would still open doors for me. So every time I mean, they've opened doors for me my entire life because I am the bag lady, right? And so people will continue to open doors for me and so I get to continually meet that same discomfort over and over again. And each time I meet that, I see the automaticity, I then get to choose something different. I get to experience some gratitude. Well, it actually starts with resentment, but then it slowly becomes gratitude, — Yeah. over time. — [gasps] — Yeah. And then I actually make eye contact with people. I give them a nod. I might actually say, "Thank you. " I mean, this took months of actual concerted active [clears throat] practice. Mhm. And every time I move towards I mean there's the noticing the override right there's the — [gasps] — this internal practice but then there's the active external practice. Yeah. And every time I did that I noticed that there was a softening somewhere internally. And I began to become aware of the ways in which I had to carry so much all by myself for so long. Mhm. Even though there have always been people around me who've been willing to extend themselves towards me

and patiently waiting. Yeah. — Patiently waiting and like I'm feeling quite emotional right now as I'm saying this because it's I mean it's so humbling. Mhm. Yeah. It's such a beautiful reminder of how mindfulness connects us to possibility. You know, when we're in the present moment when we're able to take that moment to step back to be with whatever is arising kind of move through those waves of experiences, the resentment, the struggle of acceptance, the compassion, and the gratitude. We get to choose another response and that response is just like there's another way to be showing up. There's another way that life is being presented to us and that for me just gives me so much hope, you know, in those small moments. And I think you said something too that's really important for everyone that's listening to remember around the time, like the duration, how long it takes for healing to happen and not healing on like a grand scale, you just talked about even, you know, being grateful for people opening the door. Sometimes we think it has to be this like fireworks moment and it's simple everyday ordinary moments like this. Yeah. Yeah, practice makes progress. Mhm. And it's all that progress, not perfection. And growth isn't fireworks, right? But and I mean, it's excruciating. And yet, here I am with practices that allow me to be honest with myself. Yeah. And be honest about the discomfort and to be honest about what I notice and to notice the discomfort with discernment and then whenever I'm ready, I get to begin doing something new and at the start doing something new might be not giving someone the evil side eye for opening the door for me. — Like that can be practice. But not doing — doing an internal side eye, but it's not external. — It's still practice in progress. Yeah. Yeah. And then it becomes like a bit practice where we're moving towards discomfort. Mhm. In a skillful way and that is discernment. I'm thinking about the people that are older that are listening to this that I know my own parents will mention this to me around, I'm old, you know, I'm just stuck in my ways. There's no point of me changing. I've experienced different things. This is just who I am. And I also want to hopefully hold space for that here, but maybe there is a way for that to happen. You mentioned working with elders in Alaska, and I'm curious like how does healing look like, recovering from trauma look like when you are older? Yeah. — [gasps] — Yeah, I think this can apply to most people including elders. Yeah. What's something that you really want for yourself? Mhm. You know, like my parents have told me they're old and stuck in their ways, but as soon as my sister had children, — you know, right? They were learning how to use do new things. cell phones. They were learning how to use like, you know, video conferencing apps. Before that there was zero interest. Like they would throw their phones back at us that we were encouraging them to try on, right? So, so yeah, like there's got to be something that you want. Yeah. — Yeah, and I know that it can be hard when you get towards the end of life. There might be that felt sense of there's nothing to live for. Mhm. And yet, what is it that you wish to pass on? And it can be a project just for you. you that might have longevity in other spaces. I know working with Alaskan Native elders, when I've posited this question, Yeah. they've said things like, "Oh, I think I'm one of the last four Native language speakers of my language. I think I'd really like to pass that on. " And then that allows them to move towards discomfort. However, they are fueled by a felt sense of something bigger than themselves that's calling them forth. Mhm. So beautiful. I yeah, I'm thinking about even now. I'm 33 and like what do I want to leave behind, right? What is my I don't know if it's legacy when we get seen that

big, but those are things that I'm thinking about as I watch my parents age. I'm like, "What will be my imprint, my impact that I'm leaving on the world? " It doesn't have to be anything big. It could be something like making tacos and sharing the recipe. — With my family members. So, yeah, thank you for reminding me that it's not just, you know, older people. It can be anybody. I'm just thinking about those people who come into the app that maybe use some of the meditations and are like, "Well, meditation isn't for me because they're also trying to sit with the bigness of this discomfort. Is there anything else that you would offer to them in terms of how to get their healing journey started? " Yes. Some of us try to eat the whole elephant in one sitting. What? Well, I Well, I discomfort, bring it on so I can figure it out so then I will never experience discomfort ever again. Like, give me the magic meditation. mantra. Let me work it all these yoga poses so that I can finally do that yoga pose that will give me liberation and I [snorts] will never ever experience pain or discomfort or anything negative ever again. Yeah. And I really relate to that. Like, that cuz that was me, right? And my meditation and yoga teachers would say to me over and over again, but I didn't want to hear it cuz I had carrots in my ears, right? — They would say to me, "We are giving you teachings and practices that will allow you to lean towards the discomfort that is inevitable in life. " Yeah. And I wasn't ready to hear that until I was ready to hear it. And so, there are also some things that only time can actually teach us, as well. Right? And so, for the folks who are listening, there are many practices. Yeah. And yet, with all of these practices, they take us further and deeper into the body and into the present moment. And when I first started meditating, I thought that I was in the present moment, but I wasn't in my body in the present moment with discernment. And that takes practice. And it's okay that some things take practice. Actually, everything's a practice. — Yeah. It is a practice. Yeah. And I want to thank you so much, Linda, for sharing your story. I think that's something I don't see or hear much of is like the clinician's journey, you know, the story behind the therapist and the people that come to these practices and thank you for sharing so candidly and openly and sharing your wisdom and your brilliance with us. I hope that everyone enjoys this as much as I did and continues to follow you. And yeah, how do people find you from here? What's the best way to stay in touch? Oh, I have a website. It's linda-thai. com. l i n d a - t h a i. com. I have a monthly newsletter, so if you sign up for that, you can get my monthly review as well as what I'm up to. I'm on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn. I write a Substack. — [gasps] — So, yeah. [sighs] Yeah. — And look at my body language. My mindful awareness of my body in this moment says that I'm becoming smaller. — Gosh, I know. Which says to me that I'm doing too much. So, Aw. Yeah, and that's okay. Because what I choose to do with this mindful awareness is also where the practice is at. Yeah. And you can also meditate with Linda in the Headspace app. She created some really beautiful pieces of audio content for our AAPI community as well as elderly and aging folks. So, highly recommend checking out in the app and for those of you that are curious about trauma and wanting to explore it in the Headspace app, you will have the navigating trauma collection available to you as well. So, thank you all so much for tuning in and listening and being here and you will see you around. Take care.

—