The Sweet Truth: Sugar Substitutes

Welcome to your life reset, a Verta Health podcast where bold stories meet breakthrough ideas. From massive weight loss wins to exploring the latest research, discover what's possible when science meets real life. Hey there listeners, it's Teresa Link and this is your life reset. These days, we're all trying to cut back on sugar and for good reason. But what's the best way to do it? From sodas to snacks, a whole new wave of zero sugar products are available. And with so many new sweeteners lining the shelves, it's harder than ever to know what's what, let alone which one goes in your cart. In this episode, I sit down with Francisca Spritzler, registered dietician and medical science liaison at Keto Mojo to break down the sweet truth. How do the classics like aspartame and sucralose stack up against newcomers like monk fruit and alulose? And what does the science really say about their impact on cravings, health, and your metabolism? And most importantly, if you're trying to cut back on sugar, are these sweeteners your best ally or just another trap to keep you hooked? Let's dive in. All right. Well, welcome back, Franciscoca. Thanks for joining me again today. — Thank you so much for inviting me back, Teresa. I'm thrilled to be here. — Yeah. I had you uh last time we were on the podcast together, we were talking about some of the low carb benefits uh for health and beauty. So basically, you know, we chatted about how eating a low carb diet can help you stay young forever. Um — that's the idea. Yeah. — Yeah, Not entirely, but yes, we did talk about a lot of the um the health and beauty and anti-inflammatory types of characteristics of um choosing low carb foods. We're gonna tackle the um sweetness without the sugar today. And it's everybody's favorite, right? Everybody has an expert opinion on sugar substitutes. So I want to hear from our expert today and really kind of try to cut through all of that noise. Um so let's just start with the basics here. You know, what are sugar substitutes and how do they differ from real sugar? Okay, so sugar substitutes are also called non-nutritive sweeteners and non-nutive sweeteners means they provide sweetness without providing any calories or very few calories. Um, they're basically not metabolized for energy in the body and they can be called sugar substitutes or non-nutrative sweeteners, artificial sweeteners, alternative sweeteners. There's a lot of different names for them, but that's basically what they mean. A nutrative sweetener is sugar and other forms of sweeteners that do have calories and provide energy that the body uses. So the chemical term for s uh sugar is sucrose and that's one molecule of glucose and one molecule of fructose and when you eat sugar it is broken down into those two different molecules in the body and those can be metabolized and used for energy in a way that sugar substitutes cannot. So that's the main difference between sugars and sugar substitutes. — Okay, it's actually quite simple. So, our sugars and there's a bunch of them, right? Different names, uh, malt syrup, barley syrup, honey, agave, regular sugar, you know, and and, uh, they provide us with calories and the body uses those calories for energy. And then we have, uh, other sweeteners, we'll get into a whole bunch of those, um, do not provide calories, so non-nutritive, okay? And they could go under the name some of them are artificial sweeteners, um you know sugar alternatives, natural sugar alternatives and but at the end of the day those do not p provide any calories. So um — or very few like minimal some of them very few. Yeah. — Okay. All right. So, now that we know kind of that basic understanding of the difference between sugar and non-nutritive sweeteners, um can you explain some of the different types of non-nutritive sweeteners or sugar substitutes that are available on the market today? — Absolutely. So, I think people like to think of sweeteners as either natural or artificial. Um it's a little more complex than that but uh I will go through like the three broad categories of sweeteners and talk about maybe the most common ones in each group. So the first one is natural sweeteners and that would be any sweetener that comes from a plant. And uh the most common ones would be stevia and monk fruit extract. And even though these are natural, according to the FDA, they're natural, they're actually highly processed by the time they actually make it into a sweetener form that people use and they're also very sweet. They are considered highintensity sweeteners because they're about 200 to 300 times as sweet as the same amount of table sugar. So even

though they're natural, they are highly processed and extremely sweet. So that's the first category. Um then um any questions about those? That's pretty simple, right? The natural ones. I mean, they're natural, but they're a little processed. Okay. — And then the next one, um we're going to call natural sweeteners that are produced artificially. Um and so those um yeah, there's kind of two groups of those. And I'll start with sugar alcohols. And the sugar alcohols are neither sugar nor alcohol in the sense that most people think of them. It's again their chemical structure. Um but the most common ones would be arythritol and xylitol that are typically used. And these are found in nature but in very small amounts in some fruits and vegetables. But the way that they we use them commercially are um they're taken from other sources that actually don't contain either arythrtol or xylitol. So for instance arythrtol is produced from corn starch or another type of starch and xylitol is produced from corn cobs bas um most the time since we're using the corn for so many things in the US why not use the corn cobs for something as well and sometimes birch. Um that's um but mainly it's corn crops but these are enzyatically or otherwise chemically treated in order to produce those two sugar alcohols. And sugar alcohols um are one of these uh natural sweeteners that are artificially produced. The other one is alulose which has been getting a lot of talk in um nutrition low carb circles, keto circles in recent years. Very popular sweetener. Um, this one is not a sugar alcohol. It's actually a sugar, but it's a rare sugar because it occurs um very infrequently in nature in very tiny amounts in foods. Um, but it's actually an isomer of fructose. That's that one part of sucrossse that I talked about, glucose and fructose. And the way that alulose is made commercially is uh they take corn again corn starch and um get fructose from it and convert that into alulose by just changing it because it's the isomer. They change it so that it's no longer metabolized and absorbed for energy. So that's alulose. — Okay. — Um so that's how it differs. But it in basically the end result is that none of these provide any calories to the body or very few. And these are not high intensity. They're about as sweet as sugar. Actually alulose and um arythritol are only about 70% as sweet as sugar. And uh xylitol is about equal in sweetness to sugar. So, those are a little more complex because they start off with natural, but there's also they're not actually you're not going to be able to find them in nature and use them the way that you would um with the natural sweeteners. — And the last one is artificial sweeteners. So, these are — this is the one that most of us have uh some familiarity with, but — yes, these are the ones that have been around the longest. are not found in nature. They're 100% manufactured in a laboratory. And the most common ones um that are in use today are uh ascert sucralose and saccharine. Although saccharine is a little um less common these days ever since the other two were introduced. Um but just for people who use little packets saccharine is sweet and low in the little pink packets and uh equal and that would be aspartame. That's the blue packets. and then sucral the little blue ones and then the little yellow ones are Splenda and that's sucralose. Um and these are also highintensity sweeteners where they're about 200 to 600 times as sweet as an equal amount of sugar. Um, and one important thing to know if you are using those packets, is that even though the sweeteners themselves don't contain any carbohydrates, they are packaged with malttodextrin, which is a rapid rapidly digesting carbohydrate. Um, almost a gram per each one. So, it's a gram of carbs. So, if you're using these packets thinking that you're not getting any carbs, you're actually getting almost a full carb with each packet in any one of those three. So, just something to be aware of. — Yeah. something that's Yeah. It's um helps prevent with um some of the clanking, right? Clumping. Okay. — Yeah. Exactly. — Also in some of the stevia uh packets, too. I believe Truvia is one brand. I'm sure many more. Any of those. Um not just the artificial ones, but your stevia, like a one of the natural ones. Um, I think it has I think I've seen some brands that have more than two grams of maltodextrin in a packet, which is — that's — almost defeats the purpose right there. — Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. Reading the labels to see and

it's usually the little packets often like the larger um containers don't have them. It's mainly for clumping in those little packets. But yeah. — Okay. — It can be in any of those sweeteners that are granulated can have it. — Okay. But then you have um the liquid versions of some you know like the liquid monk fruit or the liquid um — sucralose uh that I've seen and those seem to be handy because they can provide that sweetness but you're not getting that maltodextrin um exactly like you would in the granulated version. — Exactly. I'm a big fan of liquid sweeteners. Just spoiler alert. I think the liquid ones are great. — Yeah. — Great. — Okay. Well, we'll talk about those. Uh we'll kind of break it down um in a little while as well. All right, Franciscoca, now that we know um what these different types of sweeteners are um kind of how they're processed and the fact that really none of them are truly natural. Um most made from corn, not a problem. But uh you know, nobody's judging any of this. It's just it's just, you know, some of the word natural is not exactly something that is um what am I trying to say? It's not a regulated term. — It's not regulated. — Throw it around with however you want, right? But uh when you say natural on a product, a lot of people are more likely to purchase it certainly. — Um but we've talked about these different types of non-nutritive sweeteners. So, uh lots and lots of different ones that we can choose from on the market. Um, I'm curious to hear as we're looking to try and make some decisions. Um, there's a lot of health debate behind all this and there has been for decades, especially with the artificial sweeteners, right? But even with some of the um the others, the newer kids on the block or the ones that have been around maybe for the past decade, decade and a half or so. Um, so with these debates around health, with the different sweeteners, some say that they are, you know, perfectly safe. Um, others claim that they'll mess with your gut. They'll increase your cravings to sugar. Um, that they're associated with type two diabetes or can even raise your risk of cancer, you know. So, you tell us what does the science actually say? Okay. Well, there's a lot of conflicting science. I understand why people are confused and don't really know which science to believe. I will say that a lot of the science is not very strong for any of these sweeteners. A lot of it is observational data where people are reporting the amount of sweetener that they're consuming either as a beverage like a diet coke or if they're putting like sucralose or something in their coffee. Um and then you know researchers make uh correlations to whether they develop disease or something diabetes as you said in the future. And this is just very weak science. We don't know if people are actually consuming that amount every single day. We also don't know what the rest of their diet looks like, which is huge. That's one thing that none of these studies take into consideration. So, I think we need to be very careful when we look at those. And also animal studies. I know that many years ago saccharine was banned because it was said to cause bladder cancer in rats, but they were giving such huge doses and it was never found in humans when they studied later. So they took that um that warning off the label. Um and there has been some talk about cancer. Uh I think the World Health Organization a couple years ago wanted to classify asperame as being possibly carcinogenic and they did briefly and then they did another review and came back and said there's not enough evidence. So, with a lot of these sweeteners, there's just not enough evidence to really make those claims. And a lot of it is based on either observational data or um preclinical data in animals or just like in vitro tests. Okay. But that being said, there are some clinical trials that we can look at and you mentioned gut health — and the microbiome is a huge topic and how sweeteners affect the microbiome is still being studied. But right now we have some conflicting evidence on some of the sweeteners. Um mainly the artificial sweeteners sucralose and saccharine have been shown in some studies to cause uh negative effects on the gut microbiome even in ways that end up affecting like glucose tolerance and uh insulin response afterwards. Um I will say that almost always that's in response to an oral glucose tolerance test. So again, it's not looking at in the context of somebody who's eating like a ketogenic diet or low carb diet. We don't know. Um and then there also is are have been some studies uh clinical trials that haven't shown any effect from those sweeteners. So I think it is very individual and that we all have very unique guts and microbiome. Nobody's is the same as another. Even twins have different ones. And I think

that it's so individual that they find in some of these studies that people do respond with changes in their microbiome or changes in their glucose tolerance or insulin levels and others don't. So again, it's the whole diet and the just the different sweeteners, the amounts of sweeteners and just the bio-individuality of people and the differences in their gut microbiome. So I think when it comes to that, there's a lot more research to be done before we can say whether sweeteners are bad for the microbiome. across the board. Yeah. — Well, and you also mentioned something else it you have to look at the diet the person's eating. So, we know that if you are in nutritional ketosis, the way that it that your gut receives that fuel is very different uh than if you are eating a diet that contains more carbohydrates. So, so the rules change, right? So we could do a the world's best clinical trial um and if it's taken into the context of someone who is eating carbohydrates, it might have a completely different impact for someone who's following let's say a ketogenic diet and then we still have to you know you still have to go back and say well again it depends on the context and you know I would imagine it we might be hardressed to have very large clinical studies on one type of you know let's just say sucralose on the gut for uh a huge group of people eating carbs and not eating carbs. That just seems like a lot uh that probably won't happen. So what I'm hearing from you is you got to think about the context and the individuality and um that again looking at how is this an association um and is this you know animal studies that sort of thing. There's lots of different things at play. All right. So, we have talked about um gut health quite a bit, the science and also the individuality, right? Let's talk about cravings. — Okay. So, cravings, believe it or not, is something that they don't usually study too much in these um clinical trials. They don't really look at those. They look at hunger and if people are reporting more hunger when consuming these sweeteners um versus not. And guess what? The science is inconsistent there as well. In some studies, people do report being hungrier after um having and it's mainly again these artificial sweeteners that they say can cause hunger and other people say they actually feel less hungry. Um I will say in clinical practice that I have seen both. I have seen people who say when I drink a Diet Coke, I know that I'm going to be hungrier later on and craving sweets. Um and other people who say, "Oh, no, it satisfies my craving and I'm not hungry. " So again, I think it's so individual and this is something that hasn't been studied that much. And again, that's so subjective for people to say, you know, whether they have cravings or not. And I again have to go back to what else are you eating with that diet, Coke, or whatever you're drinking. So that can also have an effect on your satiety and your cravings as well. So um and that's usually not done. Very few if any of these studies have been done in people on low carb diets. Um they don't really look at the rest of the diet. they're just looking at that one item in the diet and that's impossible to really make any uh strong conclusions when you do it that way. — What about overall metabolic health? Um you know, what is the science telling us um about that when it comes to any of these types of non-nutritive sweeteners? — Um yeah, here again those results are kind of all over the place. A lot of people um that are put on like a clinical trial where they're randomized to consume uh let's say Diet Coke versus water for a year, the people who are consuming Diet Coke end up having improvements in blood pressure and losing weight and a lot of other things. I will say I don't think it's really a big sticking point, but many of these are sponsored by um you know the beverage associations, the people who make the soft drinks, but these are still randomized clinical trials that are being done. And we say that you know every study usually is funded by somebody who has some kind of an interest. Um but overall it seems that there's no way to really ascribe um poor metabolic outcomes to any of these sweeteners. At least we're not seeing it in the science. It's usually, you know, very short term, as I said, like the changes in gut health that can maybe affect blood glucose and insulin levels um in a very short period of time or um there's just no um you know, it's just neutral results where it's like they nothing. So, you really can't at least at this point I have not seen any convincing evidence that these uh sweeteners are unhealthy. um other than looking at those observational data where they say people who consume more of them tend to be more overweight, develop diabetes, develop

heart disease. Um — right and to someone listening you know to that uh it's a very powerful thing to hear tend to right but you might also if you look at it from the other angle perhaps more people who have type 2 diabetes or who are obese or overweight are consuming more of these sugar-free products or sugar-free sweeteners because they are wanting to keep their blood sugar lower or they are wanting to lose weight. So, it's not necessarily that one is causing the other, it's that they're happening in tandem. — And so, it's a very tricky thing to say it's associated with type two diabetes and obesity or poor metabolic health when maybe it's — because you have type two diabetes or obesity or poor metabolic health, you're consuming some of these or more of these to try to help you with that condition. Uh but we often don't think of it from that perspective either. So — yeah. No, that's a great point. Yeah. — Okay. I want to ask you about um a couple some hot topics that have been in the last couple of years been difficult to kind of address some of these claims and they are around two um very popular sugar alcohols. So, xylitol and arythritol. Um, — talk to us about some of what's going on here in these debate circles and is there anything that we should be concerned about with these particular sweeteners? — Okay. Um, thank you for asking because this is a question that I get a lot from people particularly about arythril but also about xylitol. So, uh, a couple of years ago, some researchers from the Cleveland Clinic, um, published a, uh, a study showing that, um, where they had looked at data from people who were undergoing or about to undergo like a cardiac workup for potential cardiac issues. So, a lot of these people were overweight or had high blood pressure or other issues, but they looked at data from um a few different uh cohorts of it ended up being almost like 4,000 altogether. And they looked at the circulating levels of both arythril and xylitol in their blood. Um and then they looked years later to see how many of those people had either had a stroke or a heart attack. And it turned out that the people with the highest levels of arythrtol or xylitol in their blood um had the uh greatest incidence of heart attack or stroke. Um but um one thing to keep in mind is that our bodies make those two sugar alcohols as metabolites when they metabolize food. So this is long before arythrtol or xylitol were used commonly in foods or even available to be used. So that was endogenous production of an earther's hall. Um and that was just a correlation again. Um you know maybe these people just had poor metabolic health and poor metabolic health one of the markers is having higher levels of arythril and xylitol. So that was all you know um again observational but then they decided to actually do very small pilot trial of both arythrl and xylitol. So in each of those trials they gave each participant there were only 10 in each trial. They gave them 30 gram of either arythril or xylitol mixed in water. They had them drink it very quickly on an empty stomach and then they measured their um well they measured their they looked at their platelets before and after consuming this beverage 30 minutes after. and the platelets were found to be more reactive, meaning they're more likely to clot. So the researchers said that the results of these in conjunction with this observational data from people who had higher levels of arythril and xylitol in their blood. um that meant that these people um you know this these two sweeteners could potentially be harmful for people's cardiovascular health and could increase their risk of stroke or heart attack. Um so just a couple things to keep in mind um is that these were very small studies in only 10 people. They were 10 healthy people in each study. I don't know if they were the same 10 but they were 10. And this is a lot of sugar substitute be to be consuming all at once. 30 grams at once of either arythrtol or xylitol would typically cause some gastrointestinal discomfort. Usually people consume about 10 grams at a time perhaps. Maybe 30 grams over the course of a day but not 30 grams all at once. And also these sweeteners are used to uh

in baking or in making ice cream rather than just on an empty stomach in water all by itself. — Right? — So all of those things can affect the results. — Um and the final thing is that there have been previous studies where people consumed arythril and xylitol and they didn't have any kind of adverse effects uh cardiovascularly or otherwise. And there was one uh about 10 years ago, that's 2014, where people for one month consumed 36 grams of arythril, but it was broken up into 12 grams three times a day in water or in a like an orange flavored beverage, I think. And they measured their um they looked at their um like their endothelial function, so the fun the health of their blood vessels. and also they looked at their uh ability to dilate blood vessels and those approved after this intervention with the advert. So they actually had improvement in um factors that would increase the risk of stroke and heart attack. Um so what does that say? Well, this was also a small study. I think it had 24 people that again we have conflicting results and they're small studies and the first one I'm not here to say arythrtol and xylitol are 100% safe but I'm saying that we can't say oh everyone has to stop consuming arythrl and xylitol now because of this study I think if people have a strong um likelihood or like a lot of risk factors for a stroke and they tend to have blood that clots um perhaps think about using another sweetener. But for the rest of us, um I'm sure you want to ask me questions and I've been going on and on. Um for the rest of us, I really do think that um having small amounts and using them in real world settings rather than the way that they were given in this trial um would probably um be safe and okay. — Yes, it similarly to the saccharine trial, right? we're — giving high high doses that are just not going to occur in probably in nature probably not happening in normal everyday life. Um, at the same time, it's very difficult to control things if it's based on the way a person might eat in an everyday, you know, life. Maybe a cookie that has some arythrtol in it or some xylitol in it. Um, maybe even 30 grams, which would be an awful lot in one cookie. — Absolutely. But would the effect be the same as if it was combined with let's say peanut butter and um eggs and a few other things versus water um you know all of it consumed at once for how long? More people, right? So I love what you said about you know we can't completely take it off the table that it's that they are 100% safe. In fact, I don't think we could claim that about anything, but that generally uh there is also not enough to say that these are not safe uh based on this evidence. So, thank you so much for breaking that down. That's been quite a hot topic and I think a tough one for people to unpack um especially in the the low carb community where there's so much love for ithrl I think more so than xylitol. Xylitol tends to be a little gassier for a lot of people, but arythrtol being so uh easily digested for a lot of folks and one that they often find to be a very great way to add some variety and uh sweetness to their their choices. Um I think would be happy to hear that perhaps um we don't have to completely take them off the table. — Yeah, exactly. And it's people's choice. That's what I also say. If you don't feel comfortable, absolutely use another sweetener or go completely sweetener free or whatever you like to do. Um, but for most people who come to me with concerns, I tell them I'm continuing to use it and I feel okay about it and I've been using it for a long time and haven't had knee issues and we all just have to do what's best for us. — Absolutely. All right. Um well so let's kind of switch gears a little bit and talk about you know there's so many — there's always been sugarfree or reduced sugar you know products available but now they are everywhere and a lot of them are zero sugar — right so with these zero sugar products everywhere lining the shelves you know that can be a confusing term a very confusing term especially when you're trying to reduce sugar um so you'll break it down for us you know What categorizes these as zero sugar and what maybe makes them kind of confusing? Are they a good tool for us? Are they something you might recommend? — Okay, so zero sugar typically means zero added sugar. So zero added sucrose. Um but it can still have naturally occurring sugars in them. So you could actually say, you know, like a great day orange is zero sugar because there's

zero added sugar, but there's a lot of natural sugar. Same thing goes for yogurt. Yogurt has some naturally occurring sugar in it. Um, but then there's the zero sugar yogurts that are sweetened with artificial sweetener. Is that okay? Well, I think it depends on um the person. I personally with yogurt or anything like that, I like to buy plain yogurt because I think it is good for us to get used to the taste of foods that are unsweetened and then if we want to sweeten them from time to time, we can add the sweetener of our choice in the amount that we want. Um, so that's where I am with like a yogurt and that sort of thing where you can sweeten it yourself. I will say that certain zero sugar things can be okay in some instances like uh for electrolyte uh repletion. You know, it's much better I think to have a zero sugar power aid than a sugar filade. Um, and uh the same thing goes I think for like energy bars. Generally, I like whole foods. And if you can do whole foods, that's great. But if you need to grab a bar or take a bar with you, having a zero sugar one that contains the sugar that they does contain, it's like an arythril or stevia or something like that is much better than just kind of taking your chances with what you might find there that could be loaded with sugar, um, high fructose corn syrup, and all kinds of sweeteners that we know are metabolically unhealthy. So, I think generally going for whole foods and trying to avoid these no sugar or zero sugar uh items is good, but having them occasionally makes sense. The other thing I was going to say is if somebody can't swallow well, they're recuperating, let's say, from dental surgery or something, and they want to drink shakes, some of the pre-made shakes, if they don't have the energy to put them together themselves that contain sweeteners, um can be a good idea. — Excellent. So, uh, you know, I I had a conversation with, um, someone from our research team, uh, about a year ago talking about ultrarocessed foods and that whole debate. And there was a lot into that as well in terms of, you know, you don't have to completely say no to them. And they're not good, they're not bad. There's a lot of room in the middle. There's a lot of opportunity to, well, let's choose Whole Foods whenever we can. But sometimes it's okay to grab these every once in a while. And if so, what should we look for, right? So, there's no single black and white answer just like pretty much anything we've learned about sweeteners today as well. Well, Franciscoca, thank you so much for providing us with all of your insight today, all of your uh researchbacked um information. At the end of the day, for someone trying to reduce sugar from your expert opinion, do you think sugar substitutes are a good idea? — Okay. I'm gonna say yes, but I'm going to qualify that. For most people, they are a good idea if you're trying to reduce sugar. The people that I would say are it might not be a good idea are those who have true sugar addiction or identify as having a sugar addiction where anything tasting sweet might drive them to continue eating that food or even drive them to start eating carbohydrates and other sweets that actually contain sugar again because this happens. Um I feel very fortunate that I don't have that. I can have a little bite of a sugarfree cookie or something and be fine. that for some people that really lights up their brain the same way that having sugar would. So for those people um and this is something you have to test out for yourself. Unfortunately you won't know and you might say oh you know I can have this sugar substitute it doesn't trigger those cravings in me but if it does I would say then you just want to avoid those foods and live a completely sweet free life. Um and that's okay too. We don't need these. You know it's kind of like alcohol where some people really have to give it up altogether and others can have small amounts um occasionally. Um it really is very individual. Yeah. And it might depend on the season of life as well. I know that if I'm in a season of life where I've am more anxious, have more stress, I am actually more prone to um having higher sweets cravings, higher carb cravings, and need to be a bit more careful with the amount of these sugar substitutes, non-nutritive sweeteners that I'm using um because it might trigger more of that during some of those higher risk periods of life versus, you know, so if I know, oh, the holidays are coming up and I always have such a it's really stressful time of year. Um, you know, it might actually be a better strategy for me to focus more on savory foods. Um, and because that's going to help me throughout that season. Uh maybe other times of year when it's a little bit more mentally flexible or not quite as much stress or anxiety going on there might be a little bit more tolerance for being able to handle uh more of those sugar

substitutes or non-nutritive sweeteners and not have that same level of cravings. Um and again that's it's very personal. It's something I just have to continue to keep tabs on throughout life. And I think if we can um you know as you said look at it at a personal level. Uh look at what the science says which is very unclear in most cases. [gasps and laughter] What are your personal um you know what are your preferences and what really works for you. That's the most important thing. So that's what I'm hearing. — Absolutely. — Okay. — All right. We're going to end things with uh taking you to the hot seat. So Franciscoca I want to hear just rapid fire. Don't think too hard about it. But um without fail, what is always on your grocery list? — Uh how many things? How many things can I mention? Just one. — Let's go with three tops. — Okay. Three. Eggs, Greek yogurt, avocado. Always. Every single week. — Always. Okay. Excellent. Okay. Number two. Do you find some of those zero sugar snacks to be helpful from time to time? — Um yes. I personally do. Um, as I said, I can have a little bit and it doesn't set off cravings for me. Also, I did want to say one sugar-free or zero sugar snack is actually very good, and that's sugar-free beef jerky because beef jerky is typically loaded with sugar and a lot of people don't realize that. So, get the zero sugar beef jerky. You can even find it at the airport. It's great. Now, you mentioned um being a fan of some of the liquid sweeteners. So, what is your what's your go-to kind of non-nutritive sweetener when you do use them? — Okay, so the liquid one is definitely stevia. And I understand that some people find it has an aftertaste. I really like it and I like it's so sweet that I only need a little bit. So, I would say stevia. — That's the nice thing, too. They're so compact, you know, you don't you only you just need a tiny little bit and you don't have to open up all those messy packets and you don't get the maltodextrin. So, um yeah. So something that people can kind of try out for their themselves. — All right, final question. Expert opinion. Are non-nutritive sweeteners better than sugar? — This one I can say categorically yes they are better than sweet than sugar. We know what sugar does metabolically. It raises blood glucose and insulin levels. It provides only I think I wanted to say about non-nutritive sweeteners versus nutritive. Nutritive sounds like they're nutritious, but it's just providing energy. They're not really providing any nutrients that we need aside from carbohydrate, which we don't need. So, um I would say they're just empty calories, and you should save your calories for nourishing food. And that's why I like non-nutritive sweeteners a lot better. All right. Excellent. Well, Franciscoca, you have been so helpful today for very clearly and expertly breaking down the science and breaking down a lot of these claims, talking to us about um all of these different classes of non-nutive sweeteners, sugar alternatives. There's so many out there, there's no way we could list every single one of them. Thank you again so much for joining us. It was a pleasure to have you back and I look forward to the next uh conversation that we have in the future. — So do I. Thank you so much. I loved it. Thanks for the help. — If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. And if you'd like to regain control of your metabolic health and feel like yourself again, check us out at verda. com. That's vir. com. Your life reset is forformational purposes only and shouldn't be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Contact your provider if you suspect you have a medical problem. I'll chat with you all again soon. Until then, stay inspired, my friends.