Huge Divergence in the EV Market

We're here for another Clean Technica YouTube show talking about some top clean tech news um from recent weeks. And today we're sort of going to focus on uh the Chinese EV market, but more the title of EV divergence perhaps uh or you know it's a little bit side by side. We're talking about EV divergence globally and the Chinese EV market. And Larry and Raymond were both recently in China for uh Auto Beijing 2026 and had, you know, the wonderful experience of seeing all of the electric vehicles that are on offer over there. And I'm sure it's just like a shock compared to what we see over in the US or um or other a lot of I mean any other market really, but especially like um more markets outside of Europe. Um, so we'll get both of your perspectives. Raymond, of course, Raymond Tribino based in the Philippines. Larry Evans based in New York, and I'm Zach Shahan based in Florida. So, let's hear first of all, Larry, your you know, your kind of summary, three minute summary or something of your trip to AutoBijing 2020 or AutoChina 2026. What is the Beijing Auto Show? Auto China or the Beijing Auto Show. So, uh, AutoChina Show happens every other year. Um, it swaps back and forth with Shanghai. So, uh, this year was, uh, kind of an eye openener and I think a major shift overall within the market in that you saw very little in the way of cheap, affordable cars. Uh, the market has definitely shifted up market. Um, you see these full-size SUVs with every possible luxury and technology feature that you could possibly think of included for roughly the same price as the average car in the United States. Um, you also saw a lot of sports cars also in that price range uh in sporty sedans. That also shows a significant shift in the market. It's not just that they're making cheap cars. They're making cars that show a tremendous value. Um, with technology that just seems hard to believe. Um, there are still a handful of affordable cars. There was a Seagull on display which now has LAR based um, autonomous driving functions. You had uh, you had some cars from J. Leap Motor. The A10 was there which you know seemed like a good small affordable vehicle but you know the only mini cars were from Wuing and they were almost like a side note within the overall show which had well over a thousand um vehicles on display over a hundred launches. It is just a dramatic change from a few months ago even and a dramatic change from what most people associate with the Chinese market to these just really kind of technology powerhouses um that really kind of go beyond selling an EV for being an EV to selling vehicles that are just of astounding capability that are better because they are EVs. Nobody's really talking about them being EVs anymore. They're just talking about how great they are and they are great because they're EVs, which is a big uh perception shift. Uh the other kind of highlight from that show in my mind was looking at all the legacy automakers. If you w went to all of their displays, a lot of them had more old cars and historic cars on display than they did new cars. Um, and you see them really kind of trying to pivot on their legacy, which if you look at the cars on the road, easily the majority of the cars that are powered, which have blue plates, are from legacy brands and they're from Western brands, Japanese brands, but once you get away from that, they really don't have that many electric vehicles. The electric vehicles on the road are heavily dominated by Chinese uh brands especially the kind of new private sector brands like BYD uh Neo Xpong etc. And you're you get the perception that what is making these legacy brands successful in the past is this association with their history and they somehow need to pivot on that history that gets people

to accept new ideas and I think that's a challenge and it's always been a brand challenge to make that pivot from what made you successful in the past to what's going to make you successful in the future especially because that past is also associated with that legacy technology um that goes with your legacy brand. So that pivot in my mind is one of the most interesting parts of the show and one of the biggest challenges like electrification for Chinese brands is just inevitable. It's happening. Um it's basically the battle is over in terms of whether or not they're going to be electrified. But the legacy brands and where they go and that other you know half of the market is going to be a very interesting shift. — I will just the crazy stat you haveundred — over 100 product launches over a thousand EV models like — it's just shock like you just think about how — how minuscule the US market is compared to that. It's just like wow that's a whole different league. Uh Raymond, what's your uh overall takeaways? — Well, um unlike Larry, I went I arrived at Auto China, Beijing Auto Show. — Sure. — After the media days, so it was really packed with people. You couldn't move around. The photos that I sent you guys for the office were really bad because you really couldn't get a good angle on the cars. So many people um to put up to like uh bring to uh perspective how many there are actually 180 debuts of vehicles from all of the automakers and um in terms of square meters not square feet it's like 300,000 um four times of Tokyo Motor Show right so it went the the — 180 what was it — the 180 launches 180 car debuts — so 180 debuts and um over 1,200 vehicles as in models of vehicles, not uh several per brand. And then uh Larry said Wooling, they were like focusing on the small vehicles, but Cherry reintroduced the QQ, which is an EV. I love very popular EV. Well, used to be a popular ice uh vehicle in China and in the Philippines. It was the first cherry a uh knockoff of the Chevrolet Spark, I think, one of the Chevrolet Dau vehicles, and they brought it back as a pure EV and they had a big launch for that EV. And um in terms of like what the show is all about in 2024, the Beijing Auto Show was all about electrification, new energy vehicles, um just basically propagating the market and looking at um an international uh international growth. This year it's all about automation. They have a word for it, intelligencation, if that even it's a word. But that's what that's what they say intelligentization. So it's like um I I in that article I wrote about robotics because Larry B Larry basically covered everything. So I don't want I didn't want to do a lot of the cars. Uh I want to do the commercial vehicles. robots. I want to do the technology and even the small stuff. Um — yeah, Larry has some huge uh photo galleries on the art. We publish on clean technica so you can — you can really like walk through a lot of the models — and without the crowd — the crowd now is really it's really huge — and there was one part of the exhibition um where they only focused on the micromobility and even in the micromobility part they also brought in intellig intelligentization they just love that word so automation robotics IC sensors on a scooter on a kick scooter on an electric kick scooter stuff like that. So um it really is at this stage I think um more on looking at aut autonomous vehicles and automation for the vehicles for all of the vehicles rather than I think they're already done with batteries and with propulsion systems and so on. And I'd like I just like to take on the point of Larry about legacy brands. They're going to if they don't wisak very soon they're just going to disappear at least in the

perspective of China because at this by yesterday China has already reached like 62% um in new registrations for uh electric vehicles not hybrids just pure electric vehicles right so new regist regrations. But if you take the overall picture of the number of cars is still at around 49, but the new registrations are at 62. If it goes on with this trend, by 2030, um they could easily achieve 100% on BEVs, just purely BES. — Well, we've talked about this a bit in the past, how like legacy automakers, you know, got went into China as their growth avenue. like that was the way that the companies could grow — and you know built on their strong legacies um — and their strong reputations — and we've talked about how you know the new EV era is clearly being uh clearly favors newer companies that are quicker to innovate and evolve. And my question is — like what is it just is it older generations that you're seeing that buying non-EVs and legacy brands there or is it just a matter of across the spectrum there are some people who are just you know lagger quote in the EV adoption curve and prefer to stick with older brands they were familiar with for longer. — Yeah. what what were you able to see on the ground as far as like who was still favoring these legacy brands over newer EV brands? — So I think the legacy brands and the correlation with the legacy powertrains go together with a kind of a fear of change. And I think that there's still some fear of change in China, especially with older demographics. the average buyer for a lot of these newer Chinese brands is much younger than it is for the legacy brands and you can it's noticeable even on the ground in terms of who's in which car um and you know the legacy brands are almost all of the blue plates beyond that I think that you know we cover the these brands very closely and sometimes we feel overwhelmed by the change in brands but the average consumer on the rounded China is also having a hard time dealing with all these brands, getting up to date on the new technology, getting familiar, feeling comfortable buying these vehicles. And there's a level of know awareness and brand adoption and brand familiarity that's happening slower than the technologies progressing. — You know, the the perception of brands is evolving slower than the technology. And you can see this even in Tesla. So I went to a dealership to test drive a BYD and next door to that was an Xbong dealer. a Tesla Neo dealer. And you get in the Tesla Model Y and I'm going to I'm in the process of writing up an article on this. You get the Tesla Model Y. It seems fine. And if you were in the context of the US market, it's okay. It's, you know, kind of basic. But then you get in the Xbong and it's essentially the same price and it's just astoundingly more of a car. And then you look at the Tang L that would be at the BYD deal dealership. And just for the price, it's a lower price point than the Xbunk, but also far more of a car than the Tesla. And then the Neo dealer with the um L90. Also just far more of a car. And you're I ask people like why are people still buying the Tesla? And a lot of it has to do with this is the brand that people who are reluctant to transition to EVs would buy is the more established brand. Um Tesla is considered far more established. There's still an affinity in a lot of older Chinese customers for Western brands. M — um but if you look at the vehicles side by side like I was able to in China, it's just hard to imagine that brand affinity and that brand preference lasts very much longer. Even in Tesla, which is considered know one of the most technologically advanced brands in the United States, it's a challenge of the technology moving faster than customer perceptions are moving. But it's inevitable that, you know, those perceptions will eventually catch up with the technology. And you know, the

younger buyers are already switching heavily to Chinese brands. um the more mature buyers are likely to follow suit um in the coming generations once they see what they can get um for a similar price point once they some of their fears are set aside by the proven durability of some of these newer brands. It's only a matter of time and beyond Tesla legacy brands are even facing a harder uh uphill battle in that regard. — Yeah. Well, I mean I can sort of imagine that it's sort of the case here — in the US where people who are in a later adoption phase who, you know, haven't paid attention at all to those of us who have had EVs for a decade or something, all of a sudden something clicks and they're ready to get an EV. And some of them — are just are they know Tesla's the lead been the leader in the EV market and they just go to a Tesla, they get a Tesla. other people they have a connection to Hyundai or Kio or Ford — and they're going with that brand but you don't really get a lot of people in this late and this is even a later adoption phase in the US who are like very up to date with what's happening or clued in on the recent updates or changes or new models. In fact, they're very oblivious more or less unless like I know some people might have a connection to Cadillac and then they find out about all the new Cadillac EVs and updates, you know. — That's true. — But overall, it's like the people who read Clean Technica every day are not the people in this later phases of EV adoption curve and they're going off of much more basic or general or historical information. So, I can imagine the same thing happening in China. I mean, it's got to be the same more or less to some degree. And — yeah, — I mean, the EV market in China blew up with Tesla — a decade in the past decade basically, but like a decade ago, it was like Tesla was the name. — Uh, even five years ago, maybe Tesla was the name. So, — I can see how that would just carry through into some inertia legacy. And they're competitive enough that it's not like you're making a bad choice. uh technologically it's just that there are options and I guess this is what I saw a few years ago was um a lot of brands were trying to offer similar value for less money similar quality similar specs and technology for less money and it seems like in just the past year or so that's transitioned to EV leading companies offering stuff for the same money but more features more technology more quality So — I it seems like pro probably they figured out people don't want to like be buying the cheap Tesla, — but they would like to buy the most advanced EV, the most adv advanced technology, and it's going to take more time probably to establish like, oh, look, we're leading on this. — But you do get the impression like BYD has sold so many EVs there. It's got to be like the largest legacy EV brand now for like, you know, the next generation of buyers. — But then you've also got Expang, Neo, Leap Motor, Xiaomi who have established themselves and you would think, okay, they're going to have momentum that then carries forward into the next wave of buyers. But it's very hard to know being outside. But it is overwhelming trying to keep up with what's happening. And I imagine in that market where they get even more news, they see even more models, it's even more overwhelming trying to navigate. And I would be I would probably be predisposition to be like, I'm going to go to a safe brand I know and I've known for years and I know has makes good vehicles. And uh you can see how that is still carrying weight. But — just how fast the market's changing. You have to I can't imagine like you said Raymond I can't imagine legacy automakers surviving like western legacy automakers surviving. They've been too slow to evolve and adapt and it and like the generation of EV buyers from a decade ago they were a there were a lot of young buyers. Now they're getting older and now they're a decade older. And now you've got another generation of young buyers who are a whole different — whole different thing like they're familiar with Chinese EV companies leading Chinese tech companies leading. So I can definitely imagine that you know as we go along there's going to be a lot less draw to legacy brands that have been lagging for 10 plus years now. And there's going to also be a lot more willingness to just have

like pride in their own brands, their own country and uh sort of not feel any need to get something produced developed elsewhere. But um well let's go from there to like global divergence with you know the divergence globally of the EV market cuz I find it really interesting hearing about the Philippines and uh Indonesia, Vietnam, Australia, a lot of markets in the area of China that um — that are getting the benefits of the EVs being developed there. And then you know it is even spreading to South America significantly which I find fascinating. Um so yeah Raymond can you give us a bit of perspective on how these other markets I know you're obviously most tapped into Philippines but I think you're pretty tapped into a lot of markets uh journalistically and just culturally. Um, do you give us a feel of how these other markets are viewing the developing EV world and try to put your best mainstream person hat on as you can too like what are mainstream people thinking as well as you know the early adopters who are obviously buying the EVs right now um in these different regions. That's a really interesting question, Zach. — And bring in, you know, Tesla's always Tesla's had that position, that like brand leadership position for like Yeah. like 15 years almost since the Model S came out at least 14 years ago. — But I'm very curious to see how you've seen that change over time if it has. That's a really interesting question because I asked that question to one of the executives in Sherry and I want to frame it like this when I asked them are you interested in going into the US market and they said yes of course North America's an important market but the whole world is bigger than North America right so they sort of like oh we're going to Canada and it's okay if we're not going to the US then go to the US, right? Of course, it's a market that they want to come into. Um, and then with that framing, if we go into um Southeast Asia, like the markets that I've covered that I've written, I'm finishing an article now about Indonesia, and it's pretty interesting in Indonesia because they seem to have dialed it in. um they have policies and they have like no it it's not it's they haven't brought it down to a brand to brand but rather to u technology to technology thing and they have like specific dates 2030 to achieve 50% 205 and then by 2050 100% uh and the focus is EVs um a lot of it will be EVs not hybrids not um not plugins. Well, it will it'll still be in the mix, but not all of that. And um looking at that or looking at that particular thing, let's jump to Vietnam for example. So Vietnam, they're because of Vinfast, they're highly uh it because it's a local brand. So it's uh they're pushing forward with it. Malaysia, they have Proton, which is a Jie uh basically a GLE car with a Proton badge and they're also pushing forward with it for electrification using these local brands. I wanted to do use that as an example because your last statement was that how the legacy brands and loyalties to particular brands will happen. This is very strong in Asia. So they have TOG in Turkey. They have Vinfast in Vietnam. They have Proton in Malaysia. In the Philippines, they're trying to have Francisco Motors, which is like uh they had trouble doing it here. So they went to the US and they're building their technology in Santa Barbara, California. Right. So now, — yeah, it's been a long time since I heard that company mentioned. Yeah. — I was like, I forgot that. I forgot they existed. But there it's funny that they Yeah. — Right. So they have to move to the US to get some technology forward. Um so I'm putting my mainstream hat on and looking at the market. For example, let's look at Tesla. In most of the markets except China, like in the ASAN region, Tesla came in sort of like through the gray market. Um, in the Philippines, they only came in 2024. They're the best selling BEV in the Philippines currently, over 2,000, nearly 3,000 units, and they're like, at this point, they're like selling 30 units a day. Um, and uh, oh, because I live very close to where the port where they drop all of the cars. So, I just

stand up in my in the highway outside of my house, I'll see the trucks passing by with, oh, those are Teslas. the five. So, I'll assume that with the five, there'll probably be 30 deliveries during that day. So, Teslas are coming in, they're pretty strong, but in Southeast Asia, uh in the generally in Southeast Asia, they're all mostly driven by great gray market importers or when Tesla came in later and that's you know, that's how it grew in the market. On the other hand, China BYD for example invests heavily um into the market not only for manufacturing. So manufacturing India, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, not the Philippines. Um and they also come in strong distributor-wise. So for example in the Philippines there will be nearly 100 BYD distributors in a matter of a year. Uh same growth in other countries. So flooding the market. Sorry that's the wrong word. Uh establishing enough dealerships to bring in cars and service the cars. Um — they're coming in strong strategic waves. Yes. Like not dabbling not like okay there's enough interest we'll open a store or two. Yep. They're like, "Okay, this is the future. We're going to partner with a major dealership. We're going to get in across the country real quick. " — Yeah, that's sort of that's a great way of framing. I had — I see it, you know, from your coverage, but I hadn't really — uh but the way you Yeah, you introduced it is really good. And — so I'm curious distinction between consumers like it feels like the political leaders of these countries all can see okay — like they take their cues from China and the US right and they can all see oh this is where things are going especially because of what's happening in China and the the movement toward lower cost EVs. So it seems like the political leaders all get that vision and then the ability to disconnect themselves from the oil, you know, oil dependency seems like you must be pretty strong. Um, so what but so do you think it's mostly driven by the political leaders seeing the opportunity or is there just natural grassroots ground support from normal consumers for this new generation of car technology? — In the case of the U, it's driven actually by the market. The political leaders are there, but they're actually late in the game. So I can only speak very clearly about the Philippines. So we have the electric vehicle industry development act called Ivida. Um it came in a little late 11 years. It came in 11 years late because 11 years ago um the electric vehicle landscape in the Philippines was driven by a loan a 300 million peso loan by the Asian Development Bank to change two-stroke these tuk tuks that we have here we call it tricycles to change the smoky two-stroke tricycles into electric. So that sort of like kicked off a lot of things for the Philippines. And at that early stage, companies like Cherry were looking at Cherry is actually very pioneering in electric vehicles in the Philippines. They were looking at um bringing in the QQ and the M1 already as early as 2005 or 2007, I think. And — yeah, back then they were an EV leader in China as well. Yes, — they no longer are at all. But because I think for in the case of Cherry, they were just looking at whatever legacy technologies they would have. Uh I think that's also another thing. They'd get a car and then convert it into an EV, which is not the direction, right? You need to build an EV and then you put you make it into a car. You need to build the technology, the skateboard or whatever platform you want for it. Then you put a body shell over it. not a legacy car. Then you fit it with an end uh a motor and a battery. But uh I also think that in the case of Cherry, at least when I was there, they have a very clear picture of like they're like taking Toyota's multipathway approach. So they still keep a little ice. They're building more hybrids, even more PHEVs, and a whole slew of BEVs. So unlike uh say uh BYD they have a very clear focus of more BEVs and PHEVs rather than the ICE and that's already

totally gone from them. Same with VinFast in April 2022. They just junked all of their ICE vehicles and focused on EVs. Um, and I think also for like Proton, um, because they're seeing the strong market for EVs, ICE will be like on the side. They'll still have it, but it'll be on the side. Uh, those markets, Malaysia and Indonesia, they have cheap fuel, subsidized fuel. So even during this major oil crisis where uh diesel fuel which usually cost a dollar 50 pesos in the Philippines became $3 per liter. Um in Indonesia only a very slight change for fuel maybe like from a dollar to a$110 but in the Philippines it was a dollar to a to $3. One thing that I had a conversation with Raymond about in the past which I think you know is very pertinent here is that — the competitive landscape is entering the Philippines. It's not just you know a handful of Chinese models at elevated prices. It's the whole competitive landscape overall. You know having family in the Philippines having gone me many times cars are expensive in the Philippines. Toyotas are very expensive. You're not only getting BYDs available in the Philippines, you're getting them for dramatically less than a comparable Toyota with an IC engine. So, the entire competitive landscape's going. All the Chinese companies are competing. They're relatively the same prices. Overall, from a technology perspective, I would say the Philippines tends not to get the latest, most advanced flash charging vehicles yet, but that's only a little ways away. In China right now, I I'm going to say fairly confidently that, you know, charge times, range, power are going to become irrelevant within the next few years. the speed of charging with BYD who's probably let's say a year ahead of the competition is just to the point where it becomes irrelevant in terms of the average user. CL has new fast charging batteries. Um other automakers are going to adopt them within 2 years. It's going to be a non-issue by 2030 in markets that are competitive that let the Chinese in. and they're going to keep competing accelerating on that technology. It's going to become irrelevant in those markets as well. So, because of that, not just letting in a handful of Chinese automakers, not letting them just dip their toe in the water, but letting in the competitive landscape, it's only a matter of time before that really takes off. There are some market realities in terms of you know what people are willing to pay for a vehicle in the Philippines and what you know people have available to spend. But the overall technology and advancement is seeing many of these developing markets positioned to leapfrog established markets like the US where that competitive landscape is not being introduced. — Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Good. good context. I would just it for me the Australian market is particularly interesting and um because it sort of sits between these Asian markets and the US market and it has no uh auto industry of its own any anymore and it's uh interesting David Waterworth has been covering that for us based in Australia there and um his latest report shows Bo surging ahead uh like Tesla like quickly came in and became a brand leader in the market as it has pretty much everywhere it's entered. Um, but it's already dropping in presence compared to BYD's surging role and not just BYD but the overall — array of um, sorry I was getting to some feedback there. the overall array of models from a variety of brands. Um I mean mo mostly uh Chinese brands but uh but that just that spreads out creates a much longer tail much broader market um and you start to lose this heavy emphasis on one brand even with BY's strong and growing presence. It's like it's not like um it's not like in the early days of the EV market where it was all one or two brands dominating. It's more spread out just with a variety of kind of waves with like a big wave for like a big new B model, a smaller wave for another one, smaller wave for another, you know, brand model. But you just kind of get this constant like it's

a good metaphor for Australia, I guess, being there getting this constant crashing of EV waves on its shores that are like expanding and growing the market rapidly. um South American markets in a similar vein as well, which I think to me is the most surprising just because how far away it is from everything and how much you might think there were roadblocks to adoption there, but it's quickly leaprogging the US. So the US market has become a really abnormal uh market and I don't know it just feels like just we just suffer from extreme complacency and isolation and kind of like not built here not worth you know like people just think that I don't know they're they're still very loyal to brands they've bought from US brands or Japanese brands or whatever they bought from for decades and there's So real strong there's not a strong transformation here on the from those brands except I would say perhaps um Cadillac which now has you know several EV models and uh the highest percentage of it sales being EVs among legacy brands. But yeah we just but we lack that perspective. We lack all of these we lack these basically 180 product launches. We lack these like thousands of models. So, it's like people here just don't even see what the rest of the world gets. And uh that's or not the rest of the world, what China gets. And the rest of the world is slowly starting to get um from China basically. And the really fascinating thing for me is going to be if Canada starts to get like the become more like the Australian market. um what that does for Americans like if they become aware of that more or still were just so insulated and isolated that was just like people are still buying technology from three decades ago. I don't know. Uh if you Yeah. — specifically um at the auto show they clearly had more IC emphasis in China than they did at a lot of shows in the US. Um Cadillac is a very ICEheavy brand within that market and if you look at their IC vehicles it is just very hard to make a competitive argument for them versus what's available in China. So they're facing challenges in the largest EV market to sell their EVs because of their strong presence within the um part of the market. The other thing with Australian, I've spent a lot of time with Daniel Romero and Riz and uh Tom Gan of Ludicrous Feed and um there's something happening in terms of that entrance of competition. Early entrance into the Australian markets were a little bit expensive like the multiplier was higher. But as more and more competitors come in, each new model becomes a better value than the one it replaced. And the price differential between China and Australia keeps getting narrower and narrower. and the arguments to not buy a Chinese car on value get weaker and weaker to the point where it seems that you're going to get convergence because of that uh shift in competition. Um getting back to Latin America, there's another force at play and this is also going to impact a number of developing countries is that Chinese labor prices keep going up. Right now Chinese automotive labor is more expensive than every country in Latin America. So, Chinese automakers are looking for places where they can move their highly automated production lines and you know reach broader markets and a lot of it's not just the vehicles that are being imported to these markets but the manufacturing that's entering these markets that's going to make a tremendous difference uh globally. And that manufacturing also helps get a foothold politically within these world these countries even though as we've seen with Brazil you know that you have quite a bit of political divergence um it's by no means a monolith like we want to oversimplify in the US but uh that's going to also help to spread electrification help a lot of these developing c countries to leaprog because they're going to have localized manufacturing we're seeing that in Indonesia we're seeing it in Thailand, um, Brazil, this factory is just ramping up as fast as it's humanly possible. It's hard to imagine. Um, so we're going to see quite a large shift globally. And by isolating our market, not only are we isolating ourselves from their products

we're isolating ourselves from the innovation ecosystem that helps to bring those products to market. We're isolating ourselves from the suppliers. We're isolating ourselves from 1. 4 billion people, many of whom have engineering degrees and advanced science degrees. That's not making us smarter. The isolation is making us weaker. And it's going to be more and more difficult for us to catch up um in the coming waves. I look at what Ford's doing and I keep thinking if they did that 10 years ago, that would be an impressive effort. Now, seeing how fast things are moving and how advanced the products are already, it just seems like it's too late and we need to start opening up our mindset first and then opening up our markets to I if the US ever wants to be competitive moving forward. — Yeah, it's funny. A story I just covered was Rivian um was different news from Rivian but one of the stories was that uh they're looking to produce LAR in the US but looking to do so through a joint venture with a Chinese company and prot perhaps with other um American or Western companies as well. So it might be like a big kind of uh group of companies that but they're but clearly they're looking like there's the RJ Scrge was like you know the Chinese companies are leading this on cost and innovation. So they have to find one or more to partner with um to bring it inhouse and produce them in the US uh for the R2 and — potentially other models. But um yeah well overall it's and then in Europe you know you have even in Europe there these companies are starting to make progress after the whole tariff on EVs thing you know several companies now are setting up factories in Europe particularly southern and eastern Europe um to produce their own their EVs in Europe as well and broaden that market. I mean the European market is so much bigger broader than the US market. it, you know, it doesn't create such a divergence and you know, in perspective, but it it is still obviously the better the more there's competition and the more there's a variety of options and serious competition, you know, not just like forced competition, which is sort of what you get from a lot of the legacy European brands, which are much further along than the US ones because they're forced to be, I think. uh but they are uh still in a kind of like they only do as much as they have to as far as policies go and so getting the push from like pure EV companies that are setting up um helps. Any final words from either of you? So I did an article recently on autonomous cargo transport and one of the most eye-opening parts of that was Mini which is they have this smaller cargo robot and like overall it's not as impressive as these massive uh kind of semi-sized cargo vehicles but one of the things that I found most impressive is they started on their latest generation cargo go robot in fourth quarter of last year and they're already taking orders and will be launching it within a matter of months. So you have autonomous vehicles with more advanced systems rolling out in a matter of months. One of the parts of the show that I really didn't get to cover in depth is just how many suppliers there are, how many technology suppliers, motor suppliers, all of that and that whole ecosystem. How fast that's moving and the speed at which a company can go from starting a project, releasing a product is just astounding. And you know, China doesn't have a monopoly on great ideas. Great ideas can come from anywhere, but the ability to tap into that ecosystem to come out with these new innovations and to work together, I think is going to be potentially the greatest uh the greatest path forward for a lot of companies. — Raymond, any final words? — I want to chime in the Middle East. Uh, Zach, cuz um the Middle East is important because it's oil, right? And they're they they've grown from 2023 like 7,000 EVs and in 2025 there are about 12,000. So annually there's about 20 to 23% growth in the Middle East. Uh particularly in the UAE, Dubai

and Abu Dhabi. But that is telling um because um not only hybrids because they only have one classification for EVs whether it's battery or PH EVs, right? But I'm not sure what the breakdown is for BEVs, but it's still telling for the market where oil is cheap uh oil is cheaper than water. Um to have right to have this uh a a 20 23% yearonyear growth of electric vehicles. So we have to keep that in mind um as the world changes or shifts um you know from that and maybe next time uh we can talk about like um this the the need or infrastructure for charging stations in places other than China or the US, right? because uh like in the Philippines now um it's growing and then in other Asian countries they want to do what the US did uh for Tesla, build the infrastructure first so people are confident to travel and then bring in the cars. — Yeah, that's a good point. The Middle East um has been keen on electrification. I mean, they know where the future's headed. like I don't think I think they're going to make as much money off of oil as they can, but uh they also want to be leaders in the future, which is where we're headed. And also they love having the newest latest tech and all that stuff. Um but it is just a testament to how much this is just the natural order of the market that's establish, you know, like that's changing. Um uh yeah, a great point, great additional point. And then there's Africa which I wanted to bring up earlier but um frankly we don't have enough insight or there not enough has happened recently as far as I've seen. Uh so we have to see you know but I'm expecting you know big news from there in the coming year as well. Uh so just a final um Larry — uh I don't know are you a basketball fan? You watch basketball you have a chance. You got the New York Knicks are actually looking — and looking good. I mean, they're looking like the favorites to get to the final on the Eastern Conference side. Uh, strongest competition on the West, but — I don't get my hopes up. — You can't. And I was honestly I I've been so checked out. I I've been watching it this lately, but um I've been so checked out of the NBA since like — uh the late 90s, early 2000s. And so like — Michael Jordan was playing. Well, as I've gotten into it, I I'm like I'm just like trying to catch up on what's happened and I was looking at, you know, past champions and finalists and all this stuff. And I couldn't believe the Knicks have really only won two titles in all these years with so many strong teams and obviously New York New York, you know, but I was like, "Wow, they've only won two titles. Like, that's nuts. " So, it's got to you got to have some serious like issues with basketball in New York. But, um but you have to have a little bit of hope, right? They're looking strong. — They're looking pretty good. Um I will say having been the Philippines, I think Philippines is a bigger basketball market than the US. — It is huge. It is huge in the Philippines. — Huge. — Yeah. But I'm not one of the fans. — You not No, I heard it's like their biggest sport and uh — Yep. Yeah, it's huge. We know Filipinos and it's a huge for them. But also, I just found out recently. Well, anyway, Dennis Rodman's dad lives there and he's got 47 children. — Yeah. Yes. Yes, he does. — Dennis Rodman says, but he was never in Rodman's life. But, uh, anyway, and I was like, of course he lives in the Philippines. Of course. But, uh, no, it was um, it was funny. But, no, I mean, they're looking strong. We won't turn this into a basketball podcast, but any final words on your you don't have any The problem is the West is so strong, right? So, whoever gets the finals from the West is looking like the heavy favorites, right? — But New York's looking good. — We can have hope. Um all I can say is I will not be going through Penn Station during those games just because of the mobs of people whether they win or lose. Um, it can be absolute chaos. So, I will be avoiding Penn Station. I bet — when all those games are — It's got to get dangerous, especially the further along you guys you go, it's got to get pretty wild and dangerous. Well, I'm I've never been a New York Knicks fan, but I'm sort of like after seeing how poor you've done over the years, I'm like I'm sort of like, okay, maybe I'll root for the

underdog New York Knicks a little bit here. But, uh, depends on what happens. We'll see. Um, Yep. All right. Thank you everyone. Peace. — Thank you.